"Milch: The correct thing to do would be to have all Stalags transferred to you by order of the Fuehrer. The Wehrmacht takes prisoners and as soon as it relinquishes them, the first delivery goes to your organization. Then everything will be in order.
"Sauckel: Yes, but we do not have sufficient personnel for guarding the prisoners.
"Milch: The Wehrmacht should have to provide you with that."
Then Sauckel continues: "As soon as prisoners of war are taken, they should be placed at our disposal and we would then allocate them in a fair manner. However, with the present method, we are getting nothing or only a fraction of what the Wehrmacht had promised us, although the prisoners had been taken by the Wehrmacht.
"Timm: We can hardly hope to achieve that, since this might have something to do with the agreement concerning the treatment of prisoners of war." That has to be mentioned by a civilian. The Field Marshal is sitting there and doesn't call it to anyone's attention.
"Milch: The man who acts there for you can wear a uniform all right and be a soldier. Only his superior will not be Herr Reinecke, General Reinecke in charge of prisoners of war of the Oberkommando Wehrmacht, but Herr Sauckel.
"For psychological reasons, emphasis should be placed on first of all covering the requirements of the Wehrmacht branches without other considerations. The feeling -- we don't get it anyway -- has gradually permeated our whole air force industry, and I heard the same about the Army. I will admit that these gigantic allocations are completely misjudged. For example in the Luftwaffe where from an original allocation of 480,000 a balance of 150,000 was left over.
The plants always look at the balance. However, there are many plants also who have suffered an actual decrease in manpower, especially 176a in a young industry like ours, which is occupied with the manufacture of very special products.
This industry has many young people, of whom many again have been drafted into the Wehrmacht. This drafting is done in such an idiotic way, that one actually has to feel ashamed -- all three experimenting engineers working on a development which may have an important bearing on the outcome of the war are simply drafted.
They are not sent to the front or into training but sit around in the back somewhere and are guarding some camp. No consideration whatsoever is given to individual cases. Of course, the plants then call for replacements. The masses cannot fill these breaches and qualified replacements we cannot supply at all. Herr Dr. Werner, for example, writes a letter to Herr Schieber of which he forwards a copy to me and which states that production figures established in the delivery schedules can no longer be met owing to the fact that for weeks, partially even for months, no manpower has been allocated and that even current withdrawals cannot be replaced by the labor offices. The fact that we can no longer meet the demands of the rising production, the backlogs are increasing more and more, fills him with rising apprehension.
He then goes into details, but always reverts to the same conclusion; everything might be accomplished, we could even get the necessary material; in the final analysis we fail, however, in one important aspect in connection with our whole armament program, the allocation of manpower. If only we had - if only we had, thus it goes all day and in every conference.
I am convinced that many people are beginning to put in fake requests and exaggerate their requirements. There is only one way to straighten out this affair. In my department I do it this way; (and what is Milch's Department; the Luftwaffe). If for months a spare part cannot be found, the entire front begins to heard this article, say, for instance the tail skid of a JU 52. Then we proceeded to manufacture triple the amount of the expected requirements, yet, no tail skeds were available. Ordinance stock piles were filled with it, but they did not issue any. I then said: "We will now manufacture nothing but tail skids until we hear shouts not to send any more." Thus, an affair like that gets finally straightened out. And here likewise we must say for once, we will supply the required laborers to the industry, if necessary by depriving other fields. Agriculture at the moment can spare laborers; it does not need them from 15 November to 15 March of next year. It is just a waste to have to feed them. Only a small number will be needed for the procurement of wood. Thus we are able to generously help industry, and later on again replenish agriculture. At the same time we have the advantage of getting fairly well fed people.
As Herr Timm recently explained, prisoners of war from the Ukraine would not serve our purpose. They could not regain their physical strength on what they get to eat in the industry.
Even supplying them with better food then we give to our own people would not be sufficient to get them beyond a still weakened condition. In agriculture they get additional food. Don't muzzle the mouth of a beast when food lies all around it. This is also of advantage to prisoners of war, and workers from the East.
However, we have to finally do away with the general feeling. We have 178a nothing and we want yet anything.
We have been forsaken by God and the Fuehrer constantly more and more is demanded of us; how can we still believe in this great program? We can only carry it out if we have such faith in it, as is spoken of in the Bible.
In January we started with a monthly production of 2,000 meters; today we have reached 4,000, and in a year and a half I must reach 14,000. That, of course, is a gigantic achievement for a month. Every motor has at least 1,200 h.p. If in measurements of horse power I compare the present with the former world-war, then the present achievement is forty times as great. What an immense amount of manpower was then available at that time for an industry so totaly different from ours.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, the court will recess for five minutes. I believe I told you we are to adjourn at 3:30.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, during the recess we were able to find the page 1059 in German and showed it to Dr. Bergold, and he is willing that we continue with the reading of Field Marshal Milch's remarks made at the 21st meeting. We continue with your Honors' Document Book, page 26 of Book B.
"What an immense amount of manpower was available at that time for an industry so totally different from ours. Yet today we must come up to more than three times that, which we have already done. That means, that in airplane motors alone we have to achieve 135 to 140 times as much as we did in the world war. Dr. Werner, who is responsible for the motor industry proposed how this can be done. He said: We must apply a mass production scale everywhere, or else we will not accomplish it. He has very progressive ideas in this field. With the airplane motor it can be done for sure. Crank-shafts and connecting rods, etc., we can produce on a mass production scale. Today we manufacture 40,000 connecting rods. However, we still have no machines today that assemble these products individually on the assembly line. The Americans have such machines. We are lacking about 10 construction engineers and 5 mechanics; they just simply cannot be procured. One must for once satisfy the needs of the people again. I have always put them off until November and told them, that Sauckel would produce the necessary labor from agriculture."
And, as I pointed out to the Court before, the parts on pages 46 and 47 of the Book A are the results prepared by one, Dr. Stettler, and I don't think they need to be mentioned at this time. It is worthy of note that the defendant indicates on page 1058 that the only reason he turned down prisoners of war was because they weren't fit.
The next meeting is the 22nd which appears in part on pages 28, 29 and 30, Document Book B, and there is also an excerpt on page of Document Book A. The defendant was present at this meeting.
At the excerpt from this 22nd meeting which was held on 2 November 1942, which appears on page 30, Document Book A, the defendant speaking:
"Milch: I believe that agriculture must get its labor quota. Assuming that we could have given agriculture 100,000 more men we would new have 100,000 more men who would be more or less well fed, while actually the human material which we received generally, above all the prisoners of war are not in good enough condition for work."
THE PRESIDENT: What page are you reading from Mr. Denney? You said 30, but I don't find it on that page.
MR. DENNEY: It should be on page 30 of Document Book A, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Wrong book.
MR. DENNEY: Short excerpt appearing at the top. I believe that is only half a page in your Honors' book.
Then on page 29, Document Book B, Speer starts, on page 129 of the German.
"We agreed at the last meeting how the 500,000 workers who are necessary for the armament Industry and the industrial War Economy are to be apportioned but would like to have Thimm estimate how the 100,000 workers, who would remain, are to be apportioned.
"Sauckel: The balance has however become considerably worse. For a present possibility of making 600,000 workers available in November, there is an estimated inquiry for 732,000, including the demands for mining, pitprops, coal trade, transportation, Reich Railway, Reich Mails, forestry, fireproof industry, agricultural machinery, merchant shipbuilding, machinery for provisions, inland navigation, women helpers for aviation reports, war production program, requirement for repairs of bombing damages.
"Speer: Are our 500,000 included?
"Sauckel: (continued) There are included 481,800 and namely urgent 441,000 - basic industry with assignments 124,000, halffinished products 16,000, delivery 48,000, tool industry subdivided army 50,000, air 40,000 with the addition of 30,000 called up. Haven't the callings up been taken with consideration by the plants?
"Brueckner: No, they are not included.
"Sauckel continues: Generally the number called up is not higher than usual, about 100,000.
"Milch: We must make up for not having called up sooner. (add the drawings in) "Sauckel continues:
Navy further 32,000, other requirements 45,000, construction 75,000, total 441,000.
The red ticket drives are included with 72,000. Should we however use up the 72,000 red tickets, then we must employ as many additional workers who should be taken into account, that we should like to suggest another procedure. Should we allot you 100 percent, thus altogether with the red ticket men supplied with an addition and then those called up, the normal fluctuation and so forth, then you arrive exactly at the same result. We evade the powerful bureaucracy which is connected with it when we fill out 70,000 rod tickets, advise and must mail and then wait again in order to register them, sort out, and so forth. We have very few people available in our offices.
"Schieber: The 70,000 red tickets will be divided among 5 to 6 thousand firms.
"Thimm: There will probably be many more firms. At Schrott there are for instance plants with 6 to 7 peoples. It indicates naturally a tidy bureaucratic expanse, when one has to send and return forms for these few people.
"Speer: It can be done in such a way that we give the red tickets direct to the plants and the plants inform us when they have received the people."
I direct the Court's attention to the fact that these men were even concerned with plants that employed only six or seven people.
The next meeting is the 23rd which appears in Book B at pages 5 and 6 and also Book A at page 30 -- no -- I withdraw that. That's been taken out, your Honors. That was the bottom half of page 30 and it has been removed because it is all set forth in pages 4 and 5 of Document Bock B. This is the 23rd conference and a partial extract of the stenographic minutes dated 3 November, 1942. Pleiger is speaking at the start, top of page 5, Look B.
"For the physical strain on the miners, who practically work two Sunday shifts each month, is such, that they could not stand it for another six months. In other words -- this is the important point -- the still lacking workers quota of 95,600 men must be assigned to work now at last, which was promised to me at one time. The gentlemen of the Ruhr tell me: we have our huts ready. Some of them are not completely furnished, and I reproached the people for it. They answered however: but you promised us workers for about half a year. We have always been ahead with our huts. How can you reproach us now, our huts were not ready. The workers assigned to us will be taken care of. I would be very thankful, if Sauckel would be induced to assign to us the quota of workers.
"Speer: He received the instruction in the last session of the Central Planning to assign workers first of all to the coal mining industry as well as to the iron producing industry, for you the amount of 44,000 plus 12,000 plus 7,500 for the feeder industry plus 5,000 for pit props. The same holds true fer Mr. Rohland.
"Pleiger: In our conferences it must always be taken as a basis, that the Reichsbahn with regard to the allocation of wagons is at least in the same position as they were last year.
"Speer: That's pretty bad.
"Pleiger continues: No, it allocated over 80,000 wagons in December.
"Speer: However, it was already at that time gigantic...."
Then we continue on page 1024. They arc talking about a kind of specialized worker.
"Speer: Can you give me by name any smelters or other people which could be taken out?
"Rohland: Yes."
This would still be another 50 or 100, I guess.
MR. DENNEY: Then we deduct on page 1024 they are now talking about certain types of specialized workers, smelters.
"Rohland: I figure about 40 men per Martin furnace. If we take away 20 or 15 -- let's say 20 -- as trained Martin-furnace smelters, we would have 300 men. 300 smelters could help us a lot. But when will they come?
Speer: Then we could deceive the French about the industry in such a way, as if we would release as prisoners of war the rollers and smelters -- they have if they give us their names.
Rohland: We opened our own office in Paris. In other words you mean, the French should report the smelters who are prisoners of war in German?
Milch: I would simply say: you will get two people for one of this kind.
Speer: The French firms know exactly, who is a smelter among the prisoners of war. There you should make it appear, as if they would be released. They give us the names and then we take them out. Try it.
Rohland: That's an idea.
Milch: We in the Laftwaffe and airplane-industry will also try to find out; who is a roller, smelter or furnace mason.
Rohland: But by the time the people arrive the quarter will be over."
Here we have these men that are in bad shape for smelters. So, what do they do? Sitting around try to figure cut about their labor. They say, "Let's ask the French to give us the names of the prisoners of war, who are French prisoners, who are smelters, be will indicate to them that we are going to release them to go back to work in the French economy." Filch says, "No, just tell them you will give "them two for one of this kind." What do they plan to do-- they give the names of smelters, and then put them out to work in smelting factories for Germany.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Do you know whether any attempt was made then to supply France with two others?
MR. DENNEY: No, your Honors, I have no information about that.
The 32nd meeting we have here -- B 10 and 12, but I don't think there is anything of importance to be read there.
We go now to the 33rd meeting. The meeting is in A, 31 to 35, and also appears in B, 13 to 15, as the results. It is 62 and 63 of the German Book for interpreters. This is a meeting concerning labor supply February 16, 1943 at the Reich Ministry for Armament and Munitions. "Thimm: I should like to say something about tho labor supply possibilities. Perhaps you will permit me to emphasize the negative side a little. The greatest difficulties result from the fact that the supply of labor outstanding could not be fully dispatched from the East, but came in ever diminishing numbers. One may say that they have almost become completely exhausted. Eastern laborers during the last six weeks arrived only in smaller numbers than in former times, so that they can hardly be included to an appreciable amount on the credit side of the supply account. In any case their numbers are small. The foremost reason is that in former months most transports were dispatched from the Ukraine while the main recruitment areas were these which in the meantime had become operational areas, or even were no longer in our hands. The forecasts we made applied to a large extent to the transport of people from the Caucasus district, to Juban, from areas like parod measures which should enable us to draw more Eastern workers again during the following months. I venture to think that we should be able, on a conservative calculation, to transfer during tho month of March between 150,000 and 200,000 laborers from the east to the West."
Speer interjects: "Including or excluding those needed for agriculture. But in my opinion, sending those needed for agriculture it will be necessary to apply much pressure, since just these districts are concerned which have been pacified to a certain extent, and for the same reason will not be very much inclined to release labor.
This is calculated on the assumption that some labor has to be released also from the eastern and northern parts of the East.
The second area, capable of releasing a considerable amount of labor is the General Government, and that for the January estimate which has been drawn up with particular caution as I again wish to emphasize. We expect that the figures will rather be surpassed than not reached. I think we can expect a number of 40,000 of which it is true, a part will have to be given to 186a agriculture, if we intend no more than to cover the losses which we had to inflict last autumn.
Beyond this it ought to be possible in my opinion, to imply within the Reich, and especially for the mining industry, part of the polish Building Service. I venture to think one ought to enlarge this organization in such a way that more age groups than so far are called up for it. since this procedure is functioning. The younger age groups which in fact are especially suited for mining could be dispatched to the Reich. In this case the supervisors who are provided for the greatest part by the Building Service, will be needed only in very small numbers in the Reich.
The next area would be the Protectorate on which I cannot make a final statement today. We have promised for the month of March about 10,000 laborers. But I am of the opinion that some loosening-up is possible. The Commissioner will seen in a personal visit take in hand the possibility of this loosening-up.
France is included in the account with 100,000 laborers for March. Messages which I received permit us to hope that this number will be increased in the middle of March. Belgium is included with 40,000, Holland with 30,000, Slovakia with 20,000 who, it is true, are exclusively suited for agriculture, since their share of individual workers has been completely delivered. This item consists exclusively of agricultural laborers, owing to a State treaty. For the remaining part of the foreign areas I included another 10,000. This amounts altogether to 400,000 laborers who should arrive in March. One might be entitled to add for the last month altogether 10,000 prisoners of war.
These are non to be drawn from the East. It can be expected that this number might under certain conditions be surpassed, since the High Command intends especially for operational reasons, to take the prisoners of war back to the Reich, particularly from the areas threatened by the enemy. A former item concerns the fluctuation of labor which certainly amounts to about 100,000 laborers. Then there are items which at the moment cannot be estimated; the yield from the threatened areas and from the "Stoppage 187a action". Here I cannot venture to name final figures, but I hope to be able to do so next month.
Sauckel: Of course we regret very much that last autumn we were unable to recruit as much as we would have liked in the areas which now are again in enemy hands. This is partly due to the fact we were not assisted in the degree we had expected. Moreover we were not able to effect the removal of the civil population which had been planned. These events are an urgent reminder of the fact that it is necessary to employ foreign laborers at once and in great numbers in Germany proper and in the actual armaments industry. You may be certain what we wish to achieve this. We have not the slightest interest in creating difficulties for the armaments office, even for those working for German interest abroad, by taking labor away from them to an unreasenable extent. But on this occasion I should like to ask you to try and understand our procedure. We Germans surely have sent to front between 50 and 75 of our skilled workers. A part of them has been killed while the nations subjugated by us need no longer shed thed their blood. Thus they can preserve their entire capacity with regard to skilled workers, Inasmuch as they have not been transferred to Germany which is the ease only for a much smaller percentage than all of us supposed, and in fact they do use them partly for manufacturing things which are not in the least important for German war economy. If we proceed energetically against this abuse, I ask you to give me credit for so much reason that I do not intend to damage the foreign interests of the German armaments Industry. The quality of the foreign worker is such that it cannot be compared with that of the German worker. But even then I intend to create a similar proportion between skilled and workers trained for their job, as it exists in Germany by force of tradition, since it has come about that we had to send men to the front in much larger numbers than we requested France or any other country to do.
Moreover no shall endeavor increasingly to bring about on a generous scale the adaptation of the French, Polish, and Czech workers. I do not see for the moment any necessity for limiting the use of foreign labor. The only thing I ask is that we understand each other, so that the immense difficulties and friction between the 188a respective authorities disappear and the program drawn up by us will by no means be frustrated by such things.
There are without a doubt still enough men in France, Holland, Belgium, the protectorate, and the General Govern ment to meet our labor demands for the next months. I confess that I except more success from such a procedure with respect to heavier work or for work where shifts of 10 or more hours are customary, than from relying on the use of German women and men exclusively. We shall have better success by proceeding this way provided the foreign workers still obey, which remains a risk we always run, than by using weaker German women and girls as labor in places of very important armament work, where foreigners may be used for security reasons......
The situation in France is this; after I and my assistants had succeeded after difficult discussions in inducing Laval to introduce the Service Act this act has now been enlarged, owing to our pressure so that already yesterday three French ago groups have been called up. We are now therefore legally and with the assistance of the French government entitled to recruit laborers in France from three age groups, whom we can use in French factories in the future, but of whom we may choose some for our use in Germany and send them to Germany. I think in France the ice is now broken. According to reports received they now have begun to think about a possible breakthrough by the Bolcheviks and the dangers which thereby threaten Europe. The resistance which the French Government has hitherto shown, is diminishing. Within the next days I shall go to France in order to set the whole thing in motion, so that tho losses in the East may be some what balanced by increas ing recruitment and calling-up in France.
If we receive comprehensive lists in time, we shall, I think, be able to cover all demands by dispatching in March 800,000 laborers.
Speer: Recruitment abroad as such is supported by us. We only fear very much that the skilled workers extracted from the occupied countries do not always reach the appropriate factories in Germany. It might certainly be better if we acted in such a way that the parent firms of Germany which work 189a with the French and Czech factories would comb out the foreign works more than before for their own use.