In the summer of 1916 my Group was transferred to the Some, when the Allied attack there had been on for fourteen days.
In the winter I had a greater command which had something to do with organisation and training. In 1917 I was Deputy of Flight, Group Commander, which was near Lille. That Group dealt with long-range reconnaissance. Then, in the spring of 1918, I was put on the General Staff List as candidate. As such, I was put in charge of an infantry company near Arras, Later on, I was put in charge of a field artillery battery, a so-called sturm (accompanying) battery, escort battery. From there on I was put in charge of a flight group, as the commander of it. As far as calling up was concerned, to general staff meetings, did not take place because the war had already progressed too far, I was very glad that I could stay at the front. My Group was in Flanders, in the sector of Ypern. From there on, during the last weeks of the war, I was put in charge of the command, commander of the fighter group which consisted of four squadrons. And I remained in that position --- or, in that position somewhere, the revolution and the collapse took place. I marched back with my troops and took care of the demobilization as had been ordered. And I took that in Graudenz on the Weichsel.
Then I put myself at the disposal of the General Command of the Seventeenth Corps, and was then by the Chief of Staff of the General Command, used for my first political task.
Q Witness, before we reach that point, I would like to ask you a question which I would like to interpolate here. Were you ever wounded during the first war?
A Yes; I had several wounds, but they were rather of a Slight kind. I could stay with my troops.
Q Witness, before you describe to us your activity after the end of the war, with these political tasks, I would like you to tell me what was your opinion about the loss of the war in general.
AAs every other soldier, I was very very sad about it. We never expected such an end. And we never found out how such an end actually occurred 1700a I knew one thing, however.
Namely, we had been beaten on the field; that the war, speaking militaristically, had come to an end, and that the revolution was just a small addition to the whole fight. The war would have been lost even without the revolution.
Q You know that in Germany they were speaking of having been stabbed in the back. Do you agree with that?
A No, I don't, because one could not reproach the German people for that. During the war there had been certain revolts at certain points, but they were of only small importance; and the strikes which took place towards the end in Germany were, according to my opinion, only the reaction of the terrific starvation which had taken place due to the blockade all over Germany.
Q In other words, you are of the same opinion as the militaries that the ammunition workers' strike lead to the end of the war?
A We soldiers thought that this was just propaganda.
Q Tell me, were you of that opinion already at that time -- or is it your opinion today?
A I would not state my opinion at that time if I would not have felt the same way at that tine already.
Q What was your nickname because of your political opinion and attitude within the circle of the land-owners?
A The Red Captain.
Q Tell me, now, about your first political tasks.
A In the field of the Seventeenth Army Corps, on various points, armed bands had formed themselves. They were soldiers who had returned from the war and who did not agree with the situation prevailing at the time. They wanted to fight for their rights with the weapon in their hand. Their political knowledge, however,was not sufficient to tell of whom they wanted to fight against.
They were fighting against everyone and everybody who did not grant them whatever they wanted to have. I went to see the leaders of those gangs. There were three actions I carried out altogether; and I had to convince the captains of these gangs, or the commanders and the chiefs, that they were wrong in their ideas and that they should lay down their weapons; otherwise the general command of the 17th corps would take action. I was all by myself at that time; and no troop could have been put at my disposal in order to enable me to carry out the task. With the help of the Social Democrat fundtionaties I succeeded in quieting down these gangs. In all three cases they dropped their weapons; and then I had the general command get them. These actions lasted over a period of several weeks because sometimes the first attempt was not very successful.
Q Witness, could you stay in the Reichswehr which was then instituted?
A Yes. When the action which I have just described was ended, I applied for use at the front as a customs guard. I was there in charge of an air group, a fighter group or something, until the end of the boundary protection; and only at this point the question arose of who was to join the Reichswehr. I was offered the opportunity of taking over a flyers' group of the 17th corps and an army which at the time was expected to contain 200,000 men. I accepted that offer.
Then, however, only 100,000 men were allowed us by the peace treaty and that without flyers. I was put in charge of an infantry company; but before I could take it over, I was offered a larger group of planes or flyers, which was working and in cooperation with the Landespolizei which had been created at that time. This was not a transfer to the police but only a command. Nothing happened, however, with that matter because the police were allowed to have police air force units and so-called air police, although they were not allowed to have the planes. Thereupon, I renounced taking this command. I did not want to stay in the army any longer. In the meantime the first fi* beginnings of a commercial airline were being put into execution.
Q Witness, we shall come back to that later.
DR. BERGOLD: I would ask the Tribunal that we have a recess.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
THE MARSHAL: The tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.) 1702
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you have explained to us your attitude with regard to the military losses in the First World War. Now what attitude did you adopt with regard to the Versailles Treaty?
A. The Versailles Treaty was not considered by me to be a good treaty. This treaty could not bring peace to Europe. That Versailles Treaty would lead to numerous difficulties.
Q. Witness, please describe to us how you went into the aviation business after your remaining in the German army forces that were sent out by you.
A. At the beginning of the air traffic, probably with the end of the war, and then in 1921, there arrived on the scene a number of airway companies. I got into touch with one of them, since this company turned to eastern territory, as the first company, and it made this territory, or it started there. I was offered the management, the aviation management of this company at Danzig. The North German Lloyd at Bremen was back of the corporation, as well as the Junkers, Dessaru, and the Albatros works at Berlin. I accepted this position and resigned from the armed forces.
Q. And what were your activities in the commercial company?
A. In the beginning I had to deal with the aircraft and their departure at Danzig, the aeroplanes that used to arrive from Berlin through Stettin, and they left Danzig for Koenigsberg and back.
Sometime later it became important at Danzig, which had now become L free city, that a subsidiary company should be formed, which was a small limited company, the management of which, simultaneously with the other tasks, I was working on. Later the management of the entire route from the technical point of view was handed over to me, so that the clearance offices in Berlin, Stettin, and Koenigsberg were also under my jurisdiction.
Then we started flying to Lithuania and to Kowno, and there we received a concession to extend our lines to that point. The same applied a little later to Latvia, to Riga, that is. In the winter traffic was discontinued at that time for reasons of weather, and during that period I used to work in the central offices in Berlin or during later winters in the factory at Dessau.
In 1922 the shareholders parted Company. The Junkers works retained their part of the service, whereas the North German Lloyd and the others began an enterprise of their own. The Junker works had approached me at the beginning of my activity, and I remained with Junkers. In 1922 I received instructions to get in touch with foreign commercial aviation companies, which were taking up close connections with the Junkers Works. These foreign corporations were buying Junkers aeroplanes. At that time the first real commercial planes in Europe were the Junkers planes, while the remaining commercial traffic was handled by means of converted combatant aircraft.
The first corporation I visited was the Swiss air company, called Ad/Astra at that time. I intended to assist the chiefs of that company in starting air traffic. This air traffic was then connected with the air traffic handled by the Junkers firm, but they understood their business well enough, so that it was more a question of a friendly visit which has continued amongst the survivors up to this day.
Subsequently I had a similar task in Austria and, following that, in Hungary. Later, during the following year, the same applied to Sweden, but as early as the autumn of 1922 I met a few Polish industrialists and was in turn led to the forming of a Polish company, which, however, was buying German material from Junkers, which was being used on the routes Danzig, Lemburg, Cracow. For the first eighteen months, as long as I myself was at Danzig, I was the technical chief for this Polish company, too; that is to say, simultaneously.
In this manner I used to make frequent journeys to Poland in order to negotiate with these business friends of ours on the spot. That was not a particularly easy affair at the time, particularly so far as the Poles were concerned, because these Poles depended upon Trance, and pressure was applied to them not to buy German material.
In the spring of 1924 -- and just previously I had been called to the central office in Berlin in order to take over the entire management, the flying management of this firm -- I was offered to take over a command in South America. In 1923 the Junkers Works had started a flying expedition there, but that had got stuck. Junkers were afraid that through this they would suffer considerable loss of prestige for their firm, and so they gave me the assignment to take over a certain number of aircraft and continue this expedition.
I left in February of 1924, going to Pernambuco, Bahia, where I took over the old expedition, or rather, liquidated it. I went to Rio, and from Rio I went by air to Buenos Aires, taking along these aircraft. There the first foundations were laid for local airways companies, which, of course, during subsequent times, using German equipment, German aircraft, supplied particularly by the Junkers firm and the firm of Dornier, continued to work, and later in the case of the Hansa, this led to the traffic being handled jointly, mostly only for mail, which twice weekly went from Berlin via Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, to Chile, and the remainder of the American west coast.
In the autumn of 1924. Professor Junkers had gone to the United States, following an invitation by Henry Ford. Ford at that time was interested in the construction of aeroplanes, and he wished to establish closer connections with Professor Junkers in that field. As technical advisor, as it was called there, I was called upon by Professor Junkers.
When I arrived, Professor Junkers had already left for Germany, and his arrangements with Ford had not been concluded. I paid a short visit to them, and their factories were shown to me by one of Ford's collaborators, and for the first time in my life I saw manufacturing that used moving belts going on. I was deeply impressed by this visit, since it was put on a basis completely different from that which I had previously seen in Germany.
I was given the order to return to Germany. This was at the end of 1924. In Germany I worked in the future in the central offices under the directors. I was not a member of the board of directors, of course. I worked under the two presidents of the company, and I was given the task to take charge of the management of all the flying business, technical questions, questions of passengers and freight and mail. The financial matters were not dealt with by me.
At that time there were two commercial air traffic companies in Germany, the only two remaining out of the original thirty-four. Both companies, Junkers alone on one side, and all the other large banking corporations and shipping companies on the other, as well as various other big firms such as the AEG, for instance, were involved in a considerable competitive struggle against each other. The government got fed up with this, and when Junkers get into financial difficulties, due to reasons other than air lines, since the sale of air craft was not really a good business in Germany at the time with the military buyer completely lacking, the government used the opportunity to force a fusion.
On that occasion the government turned down both the presidents of the Junkers corporation, and the shareholders chose me as the director who had to join the new company on behalf of the Junkers.
The presidents of the other company remained in office, and that meant that there were three of us. The new corporation was called the Deutschelufthansa, German Lufthansa; this company began to operate in the autumn of 1925, but the official formation date was January 8, 1926. I was in charge, in this board of directors of three, of technical questions and the flying business itself. Some one else was in charge of the financial and. commercial problems, and the third -
Q. This is not so important. Please continue.
A. I considered this work which I joined, having at my disposal an excellent staff, the task for life. I made particular efforts and was known amongst all commercial air companies abroad for the principle that air traffic should be formed, in the first place, considering safety as the first question. This was the first time blind flying came up; let us say flying without visibility to the ground, and it was then that this was developed into a secure matter. All instruments which were being developed, for this purpose were properly developed by us.
In 1928, I think it was, difficulties arose between the government of the Reich -- that is to say, the Reich Ministry for Traffic, which had jurisdiction over us -- and the Reichstag. This was due to political problems which I do not wish to go into in detail but which can be attributed, to the traditional, historical development of air traffic. ihe Reichstag reduced the central subsidy by half, which brought the company into a financially very difficult situation, particularly since it had been deeply in debt before. In the course of this affair the commercial head retired, and the board of directors gave me the task to retain the technical supervision and also to take over financial affairs A (Continued) They insisted, even when I told them that I hadn't even been able to read or understand a balance sheet.
"Please, will you be more brief?" I mentioned this because this led me into a very comprehensive condition in this company which brought me even into closer contact with the work there.
Q What were your intentions in connection with the building up of the air traffic?
A The task was to create a reasonable participation on Germany's part in the developing of air traffic in Europe. Air traffic can always only be an international affair, but particularly in Europe where the distances are extremely short. It wasn't the purpose of the air traffic to connect small towns and small places, but to connect the centers, the large centers of economy. This collaboration in Europe, even after 1926, was probably an example. Very nearly in all other countries a large company with one ownership had developed, and these companies, amongst themselves, were closely inter-connected. We had a so-called international air traffic association to which we all belonged, and in which all joint questions were discussed twice really during meetings. The places for these meetings always changed so that other countries and their institutions too could be seen. During this collaboration, a particularly intimate collaboration had developed with the French, with the Air France, but also with all the other groups, the British Imperial Airways, and whatever the names were. I don't want to list them all. Everywhere close friendship had developed. There was competition. Everybody wanted to produce the best technical results, and our German roup was certainly on the same level with all the others in Europe. There was not any kind of competition financially speaking. We had equal tariffs for passengers, freight and post and mail , just as the national corporation always cleared all foreign aircraft on its own territory The French company flying to Berlin, for instance, did not need to have personnel in Berlin except a general representative who looked after their special interests. The chief representative of the French corporation beyond that was the German Lufthansa, and vice versa.
Q Were you in touch with ex-European countries too?
A Yes. As I had already mentioned, traffic to South America was one of the most important points. We had three main aims, South America, North America, and the Far East. The Far East would have been easiest. In Russia we had a joint company with the Russians. That is the so-called RussianGerman Aircraft Corporation. There we got as far as Moscow and St. Petersburg. The representative of the German Lufthansa in Russia on the Russian side was the Russian Government, where there were high government officials, commissars, for instance, who were together with us on the board of directors of this corporation. Before we discussed, before we arranged for further flights from Moscow to the East with the Russians, we had come to an arrangement with Chang Kai Chek's Chinese Government and there was a joint company in China called the Eurasia. In that Eurasia company under Chang Kai Chek's arrangement they had two-thirds , where as the German company had onethird of the shares of this company. It was using German aircraft, as well as German personnel, intermingled with Chinese. We also took care of the Chinese pilots and technicians.
Then on the two large sea routes, the technical problems regarding South America were much easier, since distances going over the sea were much shorter, and at that time particularly the aircraft we had could cope with that. It was for that reason that this line was first started, together with the Pan-American Airways in America, with whom we also had close contact. I knew their director, Mr. Tripple, and there, too, we had joint airways, regarding joint routes "from Germany to America and vice versa, to be handled by those two corporations and their joint service. This later service, however, never got beyond the stage of experimental flights after 1933.
Q How did you handle, how did you regard those international collaborations politically speaking?
A The very close friendly collaboration, particularly with the French after four and a half years of war with them was a great event to me. I saw that people were not different from us, that their thoughts were just the same is ours, that from the point of view of the airplane from which we were accustomed to see the world, it was ridiculous when in Europe these small countries were destroying each other for thousands of years, all without any final solution ever being achieved at any time.
During cur conferences we often talked about this, and we were all convinced that in the era of the airplane this nonsense would now at last stop. We were nursing the hope that the countries to which we belonged would come to a similarly good personal relationship between their governments, such amity that has existed between those small modest air companies.
Q You told me once that you considered your collaboration a sort of preparatory step for Pan-Europe.
A Yes, as early as 1925 we were trying to form a company called Europe Union Airways Company, which was in fact brought about, but the fees which the government forced stopped it from a final development. This was a corporation in which all those companies which were willing should have entered, such as, for instance, the Swiss, the Hungarians, the Ukrainians, the Latvians, the Swedes, the Norwegians and various others, the Polish too, and where they jointly were forming a company. I was told, although I understand it perfectly well, at the time that this was something quite new, since no international corporation at that time had been in existence. It was mentioned that it should be put on record with the League of Nations. But all these questions, in spite of the actual function, were never solved, but the thought, the idea remained alive amongst all these aircraft corporations, these airways corporations. Had this company come alive then a Pan-European continent would have existed, at least in the air.
Q Witness, the prosecution in its opening speech assumed that you had used the Lufthansa for the secret preparation for a new war.
A To suppose that is erroneous. The Lufthansa had nothing whatever to do with military or beligerent questions. The difference between civil aircraft for traffic purposes and military aircraft, even during the First World War, was a very clear-cut difference. Certainly shortly afterwards as time went on and its output increased, the performances increased, these elements became more and more outstanding. A further point was that a military air force is a machine of large movements and high figures.
an air force like ours with everything that it needed for trainers and transports amounted to some forty or fifty thousand aircraft which it had to maintain. The German Lufthansa, during its peak period, had one hundred and fifty aircraft all told and just as many pilots, just as many wireless operators, and just as many technicians, or rather fewer aircraft mechanics because some of them were servicing two or three. I think these figures, apart from the technical questions by other experts, should be made clear and ought to be enough to prove that with such means and such machinery a military power or in fact anything military could not be started.
May I also draw your attention to the fact that at least as far as we in Germany were concerned, the military was also high above any civilian authority so that its work and its intentions would never have been entrusted to such a civilian authority. I knew all these gentlemen very well, because we in the Aero club met from time to time, but I also knew the intentions of the German Government of the time, that is before 1933; which was afraid of nothing more than that some prohibitive matter should be detected by the Allies, and military aircraft, of course, were prohibited.
Q Witness, since it was your opinion that the first World War was lost in the military field too, did you think of it at the time, of beginning a new war?
A No. I believe that all my statements which I have been able to make up to now show that I myself considered a war in Europe as being something mad, no matter who would win. None of the parties could gain anything, and the period following the first World War, with its extremely difficult economic situation in all European countries, even the rich countries, the England of those days, for instance, showed clearly that the war had destructive values only for everyone, quite apart from the moral and humane angle. So that I considered a war as completely unjustifiable. I only considered it justifiable if the basic rights of a nation were involved; that is to say, the freedom of the people and the utmost necessities of life.
Q Very well, witness. Now, witness, what personalities were you in touch with during those years?
A First of all, I came into contact with the members of our board of directors. There were 64 persons, sometimes 66. Some of them were the outstanding economic leaders in Germany. For instance, from the shipping companies the Hapag Lloyd; then all the big banks had representatives, but there were also the Burgomasters, the Lord Mayors of big cities such as Cologne, Duesseldorf, Hamburg, Bremen and Munich, who were represented on this board. But because of the difficulties which the government had with the Reichstag in 1928 I also came into contact with some deputies in the Reichstag.
The leading parties had one each there who was dealing with the special sector of airways in Parliament, and it was those that we got in touch with or they got into touch with us. It was on this opportunity that I met Goering for the first time, who at that time was a deputy of the National Socialist Party and who was dealing with the question of air traffic, besides other important tasks in the Reichstag.
Q Which leading personalities, Reichstag deputies from other large parties, did you meet on that occasion?
A For the Social Democrat Party there was the Wuerttemberg deputy Keil whom I can remember. Of the German Peoples Party there was Mr. Kraemer. There were two or three other gentlemen whose names I cannot at this moment recollect, since those three were in more frequent touch with us, whereas the others took part in these questions to a lesser degree.
Q Did you, with all these three men; that is to say, Goering, Keil and the third gentleman, Kraemer, have the same amount of contact or did you favor the National Socialist Party?
A We were only interested in being in touch with important people in the Reichstag to such an extent that this reverse, this setback which occurred in 1928 would not be repeated. At that time we, with our international ties, had been unable to do those ties justice. The subsidies were always only granted for one year, but our contracts had to be longer than that. It was economically out of the question to make investments and then only to have security for a period of one year.
Q Thank you, that's enough. What was, at that time, your political attitude both from the point of view of foreign and internal policy?
A From the point of view of foreign policy it was in the same sense as was our collaboration in these air traffic corporations. I had no other connections abroad at the time, except in air circles. In other words, I was interested in neutral shared collaboration with the emphasis on our joint life and our joint work.
From the point of view of internal politics I did not belong to any party. I used to follow the press and the picture of the country as it was going was not particularly clear, at least not to me. I believe at that time there were more than thirty political parties, and each one of them would promise approximately the same as the other, but none of them was strong enough to assert itself. Governments were only being formed by means of compromises between various parties which, however, did not exactly love each other. These compromise parties and connections usually disintegrated rather rapidly, and really, one government used to follow the other without one of them having a chance to warm up properly.
I used to follow this from immediately after the end of the war, and I always thought that I did not have the gift of thinking politically because I did not understand all that. On one hand Germany was in flames at every corner; on tho other hand, as one used to say in Germany, there was a flight about the emperor's beard. I only experienced a few really great moments politically speaking, such as for instance, the signing of the Rapallo treaty which I considered the first ray of daylight politically in Germany, because, after all, Germany, considering its central position would either have to look towards the East or look towards the West, unless it was possible to look to both sides at the same time.
Following that, a little later, I considered that Stresemann's policy showed a large scale promise, but I also saw how Stresemann, with all his work, was terribly impeded by all the other parties in Germany, whereas he, to my mind, was on the way which we were wanting.
It is for that reason that during ail the years when Stresemann was there, during all the elections which were taking place, I voted for the German Peoples Party, not so much because I knew anything very much about this particular party, but because I wanted to support Stresemann's personality. Here is one more thing I want to say, I envied Great Britain and the United States for having two or respectively three parties in their countries which seemed to me to guarantee the welfare of the country politically speaking in the best possible manner, but when you have 32 or 34 parties any such idea is out of tho question.
Q Witness, after the situation in Germany deteriorated more and more, what attitude did you adopt toward politics after that, and when did you cone into closer contact before 1933 with the NSDAP?
AApart from frequent meetings with Goering in connection with which I must say that he never talked about politics with me, he spoke about technical questions and the questions of air traffic, and it was usually Goering who would talk, and he was an awfully good story teller, telling a lot of stories about the first World War and about his Richthofen squadron, and telling lots of stories about Sweden, which is the country his wife came from. He never theless never spoke about the politics of his party.
It might have been mentioned on some occasion but never in that sense that he was making a recruiting speech to me or that he would describe to me the advantages of his ideas and so on and so forth.
On two or possibly three occasions he brought me together with Hitler. On one occasion Goering had invited him, when he had also invited me, but it was only when I was there that I discovered it. On another occasion Goering and I together had had a meal at the Hotel Kaiserhof and suddenly Hitler turned up and sat down at our table. On those occasions Hitler talked almost exclusively only to me. I guess it was in 1930 that I met him for the first time, but I won't be absolutely certain about this date. Anyway, Hitler spoke about foreign political questions as well as internal politics, air traffic, technical questions, and I had the impression that he was pretty well informed about all those subjects. What was astonishing was his ability to adapt himself quickly to my sphere of work when I spoke about air traffic, and I spoke to him particularly about international collaboration as a basic point.
During the last conference which took place before 1933 when he formed his government, it wasn't long before that by the way, he told me that as far as air traffic was concerned he would place at our disposal quite different facilities if he were in charge, and in fact, he quoted figures which appeared quite fantastic to me at the time, but which as an annual subsidy represented one-fifth of the monthly expenditure of the Luftwaffe, the German Air Force, during the war so that it is one-sixtieth part of the annual expenditure.
It was quite an astronomical figure for me at the time. I explained him that with such finance one could certainly carry out all ideas regarding rapid modernization of air traffic, using modern material very rapidly, and that the question of every type of development, particularly such as flying in bad weather could be tackled very quickly with such money.
Other personalities who played a part in the party I did not meet at that time. There may have been one or the other that I saw. Hitler did not come alone; he was accompanied by an adjutant; but of the better known people, such as Goebbels and Himmler -- I did not meet one of them before 1933.
Q. Witness, before we come to the events after 1933, there is one question I want to put to you. Did you, before 1933, have any serious accident?
A. Yes; during the war I had an air crash. I had been shot down, and on that occasion I suffered very serious injury to the head, after landing my aircraft since I had to land on bad ground. In 1932, I, myself, flying a JU-52, the first one in existence, participated in competitions in Switzerland, the so-called "Flight Over the Alps." And, upon my return, when flying at an altitude of about two hundred meters, north of Munich near Schleissheim, I collided with a trainer aircraft which flew into my left engine coming from ahead. Both engines cracked up and penetrated the cabin and hit the pilot's seat, and I suffered a very serious head injury. The main artery was penetrated but there were various objects which had penetrated the skull, and, upon landing, incidentally, I had lost a wheel during the collision, something which I didn't know -- the undercarriage, of course, not being retractable, was fixed. We had to land in a corn field. and, on that occasion, I hit the dashboard with full force and suffered a very serious concussion of the brain at the time.
Q. Did you know in 1927 of another serious accident?
A. Yes; I think 1924 or 1927 -- yes, I think it was '27, that, when flying an aircraft in the Bohemian forests I had to land in the woods. We took down about a hundred trees but of course the impact was still very strong. But I don't think that that accident caused me any permanent injuries.
Q. Now, then, when did you first concern yourself closely with the aims of the NSDAP?
A. Let me add this. In 1932 -- I think it was in '32 -- there wore two elections.
As a result of them I voted for the NSDAP for the first time. But, first of all, let me say I knew just as little about that party as I knew about 1716a the German Peoples' Party.
Q. Why did you vote for the NSDAP at the time?
A. Very simple; because the system of more than thirty parties appeared impossible to me and because I adopted the point of view that now one of the larger parties ought to be voted for so that at last there would be a majority in Germany capable of forming a government.
Q. When did you concern yourself closely with the political aims?
A. I never really concerned myself intimately with it. I read through the so-called Party Program which was attached to the membership book of party members. It was comparatively short. I cannot tell you the number of points contained therein and whatever it contained at the time is something which is as far as I was concerned I had no objections to. Approximately, its wording was the same as one heard from other parties -- at least I was told later.
Q. Had you read Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, at the time?
A. No.
Q. Well, when did you make your first acquaintance with it?
A. I started to read it after 1933 -- I think it was in i934 -but I never got past page twenty at the time. I would attribute this to my being over-burdened with work, of course. It was not so able that anyone who was tired would comprehend it.
Q. Did you make yourself acquainted with the writings of Rosenberg?
A. No, never.
Q. Are you acquainted with Hitler's attitude towards these writings?
A. Yes. Hitler, on one occasion -- possibly in '34 or '35 -when a party was going on in his house -- a big party; I think it was the General's Dinner or some such dinner of that sort which took place twice or once every year, something which had been taken over from Hindenberg -- it was on this party that he stated in a large circle of people that he, as far as Rosenberg's writings were concerned, hadn't read it.