THE PRESIDENT: Recess until tomorrow morning at 0930.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 14 March at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant; sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 14 March 1947, 0935. Justice Toms Presiding.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the court room please take their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges, of Military Tribunal No. 2 Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session.
God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
ERHARD MILCH - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Yesterday at the end, we were discussing the activities cf the GL in the Central Planning Board with reference to the occupation of laborers and workers. Well then, you hinted at it yesterday that in the Spring of 1944 there came the decisive discussion with Mr. Sauckel, and I should like you to describe to the Tribunal now, first of all merely from the point of view of time, how these meetings came about, and what had been the cause for those rows?
A I assume that you are now thinking of the 53rd and 54th Meeting?
Q Yes, and you will tell the Court what happened from the beginning.
A You mean 1944 ?
Q Yes.
AAs I have already stated, Hitler had put the increase for the program at such a high level that 3.2 million tons of steel would have been required for it monthly, but considering the means at our disposal, only 2.6 million could be produced per month. On the 4th of January 1944; Sauckel had once again reported to Hitler that all requirements for workers which had come up in the previous period had been completely fulfilled by him. This meant strong contradiction of the reports which Speer and I had made on every occasion. Hitler, on the other hand, emphasized that we had no means of checking this and that the figures stated by Sauckel were the correct ones.
For that, we would most certainly be in a position, and have to be in a position, to produce these 3.2 million tons of steel, thus increasing the output of armament material.
The Armament Ministry desired now at last to reach a clear understanding with Sauckel. We were not in a position to check Sauckel's figures because the statistics of the Armament Ministry were based on something quite different than those statistics Sauckel was making. In spite of every effort on Speer's part, Sauckel would not give us clarity regarding the origin of his statistics. As far as we were concerned, it was a necessity for the entire armament system-- I mean, in this connection-- that Hitler should be furnished with clear proof that Sauckel's figures were wrong, so that Hitler's demands too, regarding increased armament production, could not be justified either.
Speer, himself, had demanded this first conference. In the meantime, he had become ill, and I visited him, and I think it was the day before that he informed me that he briefly regarded the necessities he considered existed for this meeting. I, for my own sphere, which as far as this correction was concerned was only of secondary importance, had previously not known that such a meeting had even been arranged. It was during this meeting then that we were going to make preparations for the distribution of raw materials. It was high time too, because raw materials, which were being allocated quarterly, had to be allotted to the various priority holders at least six weeks before the beginning of the wuarter, and the 16th of February, therefore, was really too late as far as I was concerned. As far as we were concerned, we could only distribute 2.6 million tons for the second quarter of 1944, and it was only possible to arrange for an increase if Sauckel was really going to supply further labor for the coal industry. Consequently, in this case, Sauckel was going to be confronted with the very clear-cut question of at last being made to give a statement which would really determine the decisions regarding the distribution of raw materials.
This meeting on the 16th of February 1944, was not attended by Sauckel. He sent somebody else along , someone to whom he had given authority. It was during this conference that we were concerned, as I said before, with the question of forcing the Plenipotentiary for Labor to quote his workers figures. First of all, for the past period, the end of January and for the beginning, of February; secondly, for the remainder of the year, and likewise, for the second, quarter of that same year. I, myself, wasgoing to try to amend it. Speer represented this before Hitler. I wanted possibly to prove that the figures which Speer had mentioned, and as they were presented to Hitler by Speer on the 4th January, should be reduced, since I, myself, had, the feeling and was convinced, that the demand, made by Sauckel was really too high.
In other words, I was going; to try to reduce them to a reasonable level. In order to be able to do that more easily, I was going to use the other experts who were also present. They were invited by Speer, They included the Minister of Agriculture. There was the State Secretary from Reich. There was the Chief of the Reich Forestry Department. There were representatives of the reserve authorities, reserve departments for the any and airforce. The person definitely trusted by Hitler was the State Secretary from Ministry of Propaganda. During a certain period, in the past, the air raid precaution problem had been taken away from the Air Ministry and handed over to the Ministry of Propaganda.
Let me repeat, also, that now we wanted to create a clear statistic report with Sauckel, so we at last could come to a mutual understanding. Furthermore, we were going to contradict the attack which Sauckel had made before Hitler aginst us because Sauckel had stated that much too much manpower was being used by industry, and that with their increased output, one could just as well manage with fewer people. It had been said on that occasion, that workers were standing about for days in various places because of lack of proper organization.
As far as my experience was concerned, I had a serious clash with Hitler about that. This led to the fact that through the armament industry, there had been an inspection in one of my plants which showed that all these attacks were not justified. Once Hitler was told of something like that, it was very difficult to talk him out of such prejudice. The outcome of this conference, then, brought the following results:
One, figures which Sauckel had stated as having been supplied to us for the first half of 1944 were basically untrue. On one occasion he had spoken of 145,000. On another occasion, of 160,000. In reality according to the statement of the chief of Speer's armament department, only 14.500 people had been supplied of that number. The difference with relation to the figures of just one month ago was significant as far as we were concerned and it coincided with our previously formed opinion. We were convinced that for time past, also, the relationship between Sauckel's reports and the real achievements had been exactly They entailed for us, in the Central Planning Board, the clear out conclusion, that under no circumstance could we expect an increased output of iron in the second quarter that year.
The best we could expect was the figure of 2,100,000 and we could not carry out Hitler's risk to increase it.
The second result was that the figures which were mentioned and which had been demanded by Sauckel could even be contradicted by means of questioning representatives from other ministries as early as that meeting; and the figure of two million workers for that year was reduced by 1,150,000 workers, that is to say, on paper. So according to the calculations which I made during that conference, only 950,000 laborers, instead of 2,100,000 could be regarded as really essential. Fluctuations through the transfer of workers from one plant to another, through alteration of programs had already been taken care of in the case of those figures. Later on the armament industry compiled some tables.
Q May I have them put before you at this point?
A The armament industry compiled some table in which these figures of mine were increased a little. I had no knowledge of this subsequent increase.
The third point arising from this conference was that we dealt with Sauckel's statement to the effect that we had not been economical with workers which we succeeded in contradicting. It was essential to lay this down in order to be able to make a report to Hitler on the proper occasion about this. Those two sheets which have been submitted here -
Q Witness, the Exhibit number is at the top. Tell the Tribunal what it is.
A Document Number NOKW 198, Exhibit Number -
Q Would you mind letting me have it again? The exhibit number is NOKW-
MR. DENNEY: Exhibit Number 51.
JUDGE MUSSMANO: Which document book?
MR. DENNEY: It is document book 2-D. If your Honor please, that is Prosecution Exh. No. 51 in evidence. It is NOKW-198. It is page 59.
in Document Book 2-B. Perhaps it might help the witness if he had the original because if your Honors recall, this is the one on which some notations, were made in 1895a red pencil, and did not photastat.
If the witness would like to see the original, I will be very glad to ask the Secretary-General to get it for him.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, after the prosecution's Exhibit No. 51 in evidence, which is NOKW-198, and it is in page 59 of Document Book 2-B, perhaps it might help the witness if he had the original, because, if Your Honors recall, this is the one on which some notations were made in red pencil which were in photostat, and if the witness would like to see the original I will be very glad to ask the Secretary General to get it for him.
DR. BERGOLD: Do you want the original or are you satisfied, with a photostat copy?
THE WITNESS: I am satisfied with what I have got. I assume that they must be identical.
MR. DENNEY: Well, they aren't Chinese copies, Your Honor,because you can't file the numbers over other numbers. It is as close a copy as we could make. As Your Honors recall, at the time it was offered, the original was produced and handed to the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes; I recall. But the witness doesn't seem to care for it. Unless he wants it -
MR. DENNEY: I just wanted to make it clear in the record.
DR. BERGOLD: Witness, apparently the figures are not enough to tally completely. Perhaps we better have the original.
THE WITNESS: But surely this is a photostat copy.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes; that's what I thought.
THE WITNESS: In that case I would rather see the original.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, in the meantime, may I draw your attention to the fact that the statement made by the witness regarding the difference between Sauckel's reports and the real reports are contained in my document book, Document Book 1, on page 15 of the original of the Exhibit No.11. There in the passage where Weger is talking. It is that passage which the witness was making reference to. It's the minutes of the 53rd meeting of the board in my Document Book R-124, Exhibit No.11, and its page of the original.
THE PRESIDENT: Page 24 in the English Document Book.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Will you continue, witness? Perhaps you can continue your statement 1897 A
THE WITNESS: Yes. May I draw your attention to the fact that there are two copies; one contains handwritten endorsements by me, the other does not have such endorsements, and I should like to request that the one with the handwritten endorsements should be looked at because that is the copy which was used during the meeting on the 16th February 1944. The copy filled in with a typewriter is a later one.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, are you not in possession of this table?
THE PRESIDENT: We have the one that is without the pencil notations on it. That's being brought down. We'll see it when it comes.
DR. BERGOLD: In that case perhaps you had better make general statements about this meeting which you will have to make anyway. After all, certain criticism, which are of Sauckel's -- were being made during that meeting, and THE WITNESS: I can perhaps refer to some points which are of particular importance. First of all, I would like to state that as far as I was concerned, I was not interested in the obtaining of foreign labor during that meeting. General Weger, who has already been mentioned, who came from Speer's armament department, states, on page 1875, that continuously there was an influx of now programs which of course meant increased labor demands as an automatic consequence. I replied to this at the time that the allocation of materials had already been impeded and could therefore not be further increased, and that we weren't receiving any further materials, particularly since we were unable to -- . Consequently, this argument can't be put down to labor request problems, because considering that we weren't getting any additional material, we couldn't possibly need any additional labor. During this same conference I am also expressing clearly that the "rideman", I mean the branch of the armed forces; they were coming from the highest leaders as an order, and that it was a particularly difficult task to fulfill, and of course the personnel question was the most difficult one of all. Sauckel's representative, during his statements, and presumably he must have had his orders for that meeting from Sauckel, nevertheless admits - and this you can find on page 1911- that the General Plenipotentiary for Labour was being told, loudly, silently, directively and indirectly, that there were accusations against him, that all his figures 1898-A were just play figures, just acrobatics with figures.
He were most agreeable to such a conception, because that corresponded absolutely with our conception, regarding the figures quoted by the plenipotentiary for Labor. I also stated during that same meeting, and you will find this on page 1931, just how important the presence of the Food Ministry and the Ministry sources such as Transport, and other departments would be. I am saying, none of us on his own is in a position to help Germany, and to see Germany through, only all of us together can do that.
DR. BERGOLD: May I, Your Honors, let you have my copy at this point?
THE WITNESS: Do you want me to finish my sentence, which I just started?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes; go ahead, witness.
THE WITNESS: I am saying that everything would have to be but right, and no purpose could be served if only one portion of Germany's economic system was in order and the other part was not. So that therefore, the many requests from individuals could never he fulfilled; that is to say, regarding the obtaining of labor from Sauckel or these sources and I go on to say that the organizations are not at 11 in a position to do so, namely, to supply everything that's wanted, but every one of us in his own particular sphere, would have to attend to those important points as a leader which would enable us to attend to these matters comparatively correctly and successfully.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the figure on the left of this exhibit, where there is a column of figures followed by the symbol MIO -- does that by chance mean millions?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes; that's millions.
MR. DENNY: Just so the record will be clear, Your Honor, the witness is apparently reading from something. I'd just like to have a statement from Dr. Bergold as to what the paper is. I believe it's a copy minutes of the Central Planning Board, but I would also like to have it appear whether the witness recalls it or whether he's just reading now from the record something that was produced in March or February 1944.
(Court No. 2
DR. BERGOLD: These are extracts from documents which I have presented and he is quoting verbatim statements made by himself which of course he couldn't possibly remember accurately after so many years. He just quoted.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney is interested in knowing just what the document is that ho is using to testify from. What does ho have in his hand?
DR. BERGOLD: He has in his hand written extracts which he himself has prepared from my document book, in this particular case, from Exhibit No. 11, which is the minutes of the 53rd meeting.
THE PRESIDENT: His own memoranda or compilation?
DR. BERGOLD: That is correct -- which he has compiled; yes.
THE WITNESS: I did it, Your Honors, in this particular manner, so that this very long record of that conference should be shortened.
THE PRESIDENT: It's all right; we just wanted to know what it was.
THE WITNESS: Yes; and the words of mine which I am quoting here, I should like to explain briefly, there sense, that is, which they had at that particular time.
I went on to say, "It will be from this emergency that we will find ourselves forced more and more to forego things which have become dear to us." If new aims and programs appeared somewhere, then the consistency amongst the various branches of the armed forces was so large that they were anxious to retain old models at the same time. In other words, everything new was demended as additional material; and the troops had grown attached to the old things. In this connection I am trying to express the fact that we must form a total picture; and we must put into the foreground what is really important. We musn't manufacture every type of arms. We must only make what is important; and we must reduce our programs correspondingly. If everyone of us does that, and if we come to agreements about it amongst ourselves, then thus we will see the ceilings which we know will be too low, whereas the labor at our disposal will be enough. May I continue?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
A. Then, if I may ask you to look at the document which has a handwritten endorsement. That was the very copy which was used for the meeting of the 16th of February 1944, and which the Planning Bureau of Speer's Ministry and the planning Office of Speer's Ministry submitted. I assume that the figures inserted on the right originated from Speer's statistics or the Statistical Ministry. After that moment those figures in that particular form had been unknown to me.
The left-hand side has been left open, the reason being that we wanted Sauckel's representative to tell us the figures during that meeting. This was meant to be the preparation for joint statistics. Up tothat time I was meant to carry out reduction of labor figures which I, in contradiction even of Speer, who had previously made such requests, and in contradiction of Hitler's decision of the 4th of January, 1944, was intending to make. Now, on the left-hand side I put that note down which, according to Sauckel's statement, isn't applicable to the fourth quarter after the previous year, that is 1943, and has really been the design. That is followed by the figures 865,000.
At the top it always states supplies of workers in thousands.
Q. Witness, what you have just mentioned -- is that in handwriting?
A. Yes, in handwriting, a handwritten note because we wanted to know from Sauckel what he was telling us.
Q. Witness, whenever you quote figures, will you please say whether it is a printed figure or a figure inserted in handwriting so that the Tribunal is more easily in a position to find the point? You know it, of course; but we don't.
A. Below that is again in handwriting a statement to the effect of what types of figures, what type of numbers of foreign workers, prisoners of war, and so forth compose the totals. This 865,000 entry consisted of Germans; and the 511,000 below are foreigners. The classification made according to nations, French, Belgian, and so forth hadn't been filled in. Then followed prisoners of war, 761,000, so that a total for the fourth quarter of 1943 which was supposed to have been reached was arrived at, amounting to 2,137,000, a figure which, as far as we were concerned, was never believed, even if the effect of that figure was due to so-called chance affairs or fluctuations. That is to say, people the mass of whom had already been working in Germany were now in the course of that quarter being shifted to another place. The fact that the figure around about that time, namely, the end of 1943, appeared to be very high was not a miracle. A large number of factories had been destroyed through bombing; and these workers from those factories were being sent elsewhere. Nevertheless, these figures go far beyond those which had been calculated by Speer's Armament Ministry; and the fact is that he was continuously being accused that the figures of GBA, the Plenipotentiary for Labor, were acrobatic.
Then follows figures expected from the first quarter of 1944. That is meant to say, those figures, too, have been put in in handwriting by me. Would you just mind waiting a, minute? Go on, please. If you assume, then, that a total of 251,000 German workers, a total of that figure, would be expected, that includes fluctuations, and Sauckel's representative goes along and goes on to quote the following figures during that meeting.
He is expecting 135,000 French; 38,000 Belgians; 38,000 Dutch; 110,000 Italians; 150 Eastern workers; 12,000 miscellaneous workers; and that brings him to a total, including Germans and foreigners, of 749,000. Just like all the other gentlemen I inserted these figures into my copy during that meeting in order to get a clear impression.
Then I made the remark which you can find under the heading "Remark" regarding what Sauckel's representative had mentioned under figures obtained by now, that is, during January; and this figure, which is under the heading "Germans" at the top, refers, however, to the entire page, that is, workers altogether. He states that in January a total of 145,000 workers arrived. That was again taking into consideration fluctuations. He never states in that connection which were really new arrivals; and this figure deviates from a figure states previously which he had reported to Speer's armament office and which was 160,000. That was the figure of which General Weger from the armament department states that it was all untrue -- only 14,500 altogether have ever arrived. Here we come to a point where we quote Sauckel having given untrue reports.
Then below that there is an explanation of the items which make up that 145,000. It says 40,000 bombing injuries, that is, people in factories which had been damaged, factories which had been destroyed. That 40,000 must be taken into consideration.
Q. What do you mean, "taken into consideration"? Are you talking about workers?
A. Yes, those are the factories, those are the workers from factories of which he says they can be newly introduced into the figure because they are from old factories which have been knocked out. Then he states that he is expecting 16,000 Italians; and he also states that, owing to fluctuations from factories which were not destroyed, there will be a transfer of workers numbering 50,000.
I went on to say that if he wanted to stand up to the conclusion that he states; if he wants to fulfil his program for February, he will need another 500,000 workers for February and March of that year. But, of course, about those no news was available at the time to the effect of whether they were going to come or whether they were not. On the other hand, if I compare this figure with the asserted figure of 145,000, then I could see that it would be most difficult for February and March to place at the disposal of industry another 500,000.
But I did see much more clearly, considering that he had only really supplied 14,500. That is the sense of the statement here. It would be a certain impossibility to attain 500,000 workers in February and March, that is to say, as far as I was concerned. These figures made it abundantly clear that the considerable increase of steel demanded by Hitler for the second quarter of 1944 would fall down because of the shortage of labor. It is at that moment and at that time that I came to the decision that the steel contingent should not be increased in the quarter but that if anything the amounts for the first quarter should definitely be distributed to priority holders.
This was decidedly one of the most important tasks for a man from the Central Planning Board. My responsibility was all the greater since unfortunately Speer because of his sickness could not be present during that meeting. Since both Funk as well as Koerner were not up-to-date on this subject, the weight of this task during that meeting was entirely upon my shoulders. Then I wrote below once again -- that is in my handwriting. That means on the first quarter of 1944 Sauckel is expecting approximately 650,000 men. That means 145,000 for January and 500,000 which he only is going to try to get hold of for February and March. Once again I reduce this figure by 100,000 with reference to the statement he just previously had been making, namely, what he thought he was going to be able to place at our disposal during the first quarter of 1944.
May I have your permission to ask whether I have explained sufficiently and clearly the Sauckel figures which were written on the moon, which could not even through a superficial possible check to be found to be correct.
Q. Mr. Witness -- I am perfectly convinced.
A. On the same page on the sheet I have also mentioned in handwriting, just what Berg is describing as Sauckel's plan for the entire year, in connection with which Sauckel probably first of all quoted the last figure at the bottom, because there we have those four million approximately of workers, and 200,000 of which were entirely of Hitler's demand made on 4 January, and he asked Sauckel what figure he wanted to serve, and that he, Sauckel, wanted 1.5 millions of the Italians to be brought alone. Sauckel was making apologies during that meeting that he was trying with Italy first of all to come to an agreement about this question of armament. He expected one million to be expected from France, and he referred to the agreement made with Lavalle; expected 250,000 from Belgium, and 250,000 from Holland. Once again based on the agreement existing with the two governments in question, then he refers to these figures to bring 600,000 people from the East, and that he would also additionally mobilize 500,000 Germans. That is adding, and I am coming to the part there where the man said, "Wait a minute, we have to have 100,000 from the Balkans." I said, "All right, that makes it two millions." Now there is an additional statement from what has already been said during the Hitler conference, on January 4th, which was about the date of it, that 2.5 million people would be necessary coming from a fluctuation, which would also be able to take care of the fluctuation; but I repeat that it would be not new laborers, but it means the old German and foreign workers we already had, and who were already working in Germany's economic program. Below that we serve 1.3 million new workers, and that refers to an order made during the Hitler conference, which also corresponds to the demand made by the Armament Ministry of Speer, ordered there at the time, and also been referred to as Speer's figures in these minutes.