THE WITNESS: Yes. May I draw your attention to the fact that there are two copies; one contains handwritten endorsements by me, the other does not have such endorsements, and I should like to request that the one with the handwritten endorsements should be looked at because that is the copy which was used during the meeting on the 16th February 1944. The copy filled in with a typewriter is a later one.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, are you not in possession of this table?
THE PRESIDENT: We have the one that is without the pencil notations on it. That's being brought down. We'll see it when it comes.
DR. BERGOLD: In that case perhaps you had better make general statements about this meeting which you will have to make anyway. After all, certain criticism, which are of Sauckel's -- were being made during that meeting, and THE WITNESS: I can perhaps refer to some points which are of particular importance. First of all, I would like to state that as far as I was concerned, I was not interested in the obtaining of foreign labor during that meeting. General Weger, who has already been mentioned, who came from Speer's armament department, states, on page 1875, that continuously there was an influx of now programs which of course meant increased labor demands as an automatic consequence. I replied to this at the time that the allocation of materials had already been impeded and could therefore not be further increased, and that we weren't receiving any further materials, particularly since we were unable to -- . Consequently, this argument can't be put down to labor request problems, because considering that we weren't getting any additional material, we couldn't possibly need any additional labor. During this same conference I am also expressing clearly that the "rideman", I mean the branch of the armed forces; they were coming from the highest leaders as an order, and that it was a particularly difficult task to fulfill, and of course the personnel question was the most difficult one of all. Sauckel's representative, during his statements, and presumably he must have had his orders for that meeting from Sauckel, nevertheless admits - and this you can find on page 1911- that the General Plenipotentiary for Labour was being told, loudly, silently, directively and indirectly, that there were accusations against him, that all his figures 1898-A were just play figures, just acrobatics with figures.
He were most agreeable to such a conception, because that corresponded absolutely with our conception, regarding the figures quoted by the plenipotentiary for Labor. I also stated during that same meeting, and you will find this on page 1931, just how important the presence of the Food Ministry and the Ministry sources such as Transport, and other departments would be. I am saying, none of us on his own is in a position to help Germany, and to see Germany through, only all of us together can do that.
DR. BERGOLD: May I, Your Honors, let you have my copy at this point?
THE WITNESS: Do you want me to finish my sentence, which I just started?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes; go ahead, witness.
THE WITNESS: I am saying that everything would have to be but right, and no purpose could be served if only one portion of Germany's economic system was in order and the other part was not. So that therefore, the many requests from individuals could never he fulfilled; that is to say, regarding the obtaining of labor from Sauckel or these sources and I go on to say that the organizations are not at 11 in a position to do so, namely, to supply everything that's wanted, but every one of us in his own particular sphere, would have to attend to those important points as a leader which would enable us to attend to these matters comparatively correctly and successfully.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the figure on the left of this exhibit, where there is a column of figures followed by the symbol MIO -- does that by chance mean millions?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes; that's millions.
MR. DENNY: Just so the record will be clear, Your Honor, the witness is apparently reading from something. I'd just like to have a statement from Dr. Bergold as to what the paper is. I believe it's a copy minutes of the Central Planning Board, but I would also like to have it appear whether the witness recalls it or whether he's just reading now from the record something that was produced in March or February 1944.
(Court No. 2
DR. BERGOLD: These are extracts from documents which I have presented and he is quoting verbatim statements made by himself which of course he couldn't possibly remember accurately after so many years. He just quoted.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney is interested in knowing just what the document is that ho is using to testify from. What does ho have in his hand?
DR. BERGOLD: He has in his hand written extracts which he himself has prepared from my document book, in this particular case, from Exhibit No. 11, which is the minutes of the 53rd meeting.
THE PRESIDENT: His own memoranda or compilation?
DR. BERGOLD: That is correct -- which he has compiled; yes.
THE WITNESS: I did it, Your Honors, in this particular manner, so that this very long record of that conference should be shortened.
THE PRESIDENT: It's all right; we just wanted to know what it was.
THE WITNESS: Yes; and the words of mine which I am quoting here, I should like to explain briefly, there sense, that is, which they had at that particular time.
I went on to say, "It will be from this emergency that we will find ourselves forced more and more to forego things which have become dear to us." If new aims and programs appeared somewhere, then the consistency amongst the various branches of the armed forces was so large that they were anxious to retain old models at the same time. In other words, everything new was demended as additional material; and the troops had grown attached to the old things. In this connection I am trying to express the fact that we must form a total picture; and we must put into the foreground what is really important. We musn't manufacture every type of arms. We must only make what is important; and we must reduce our programs correspondingly. If everyone of us does that, and if we come to agreements about it amongst ourselves, then thus we will see the ceilings which we know will be too low, whereas the labor at our disposal will be enough. May I continue?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
A. Then, if I may ask you to look at the document which has a handwritten endorsement. That was the very copy which was used for the meeting of the 16th of February 1944, and which the Planning Bureau of Speer's Ministry and the planning Office of Speer's Ministry submitted. I assume that the figures inserted on the right originated from Speer's statistics or the Statistical Ministry. After that moment those figures in that particular form had been unknown to me.
The left-hand side has been left open, the reason being that we wanted Sauckel's representative to tell us the figures during that meeting. This was meant to be the preparation for joint statistics. Up tothat time I was meant to carry out reduction of labor figures which I, in contradiction even of Speer, who had previously made such requests, and in contradiction of Hitler's decision of the 4th of January, 1944, was intending to make. Now, on the left-hand side I put that note down which, according to Sauckel's statement, isn't applicable to the fourth quarter after the previous year, that is 1943, and has really been the design. That is followed by the figures 865,000.
At the top it always states supplies of workers in thousands.
Q. Witness, what you have just mentioned -- is that in handwriting?
A. Yes, in handwriting, a handwritten note because we wanted to know from Sauckel what he was telling us.
Q. Witness, whenever you quote figures, will you please say whether it is a printed figure or a figure inserted in handwriting so that the Tribunal is more easily in a position to find the point? You know it, of course; but we don't.
A. Below that is again in handwriting a statement to the effect of what types of figures, what type of numbers of foreign workers, prisoners of war, and so forth compose the totals. This 865,000 entry consisted of Germans; and the 511,000 below are foreigners. The classification made according to nations, French, Belgian, and so forth hadn't been filled in. Then followed prisoners of war, 761,000, so that a total for the fourth quarter of 1943 which was supposed to have been reached was arrived at, amounting to 2,137,000, a figure which, as far as we were concerned, was never believed, even if the effect of that figure was due to so-called chance affairs or fluctuations. That is to say, people the mass of whom had already been working in Germany were now in the course of that quarter being shifted to another place. The fact that the figure around about that time, namely, the end of 1943, appeared to be very high was not a miracle. A large number of factories had been destroyed through bombing; and these workers from those factories were being sent elsewhere. Nevertheless, these figures go far beyond those which had been calculated by Speer's Armament Ministry; and the fact is that he was continuously being accused that the figures of GBA, the Plenipotentiary for Labor, were acrobatic.
Then follows figures expected from the first quarter of 1944. That is meant to say, those figures, too, have been put in in handwriting by me. Would you just mind waiting a, minute? Go on, please. If you assume, then, that a total of 251,000 German workers, a total of that figure, would be expected, that includes fluctuations, and Sauckel's representative goes along and goes on to quote the following figures during that meeting.
He is expecting 135,000 French; 38,000 Belgians; 38,000 Dutch; 110,000 Italians; 150 Eastern workers; 12,000 miscellaneous workers; and that brings him to a total, including Germans and foreigners, of 749,000. Just like all the other gentlemen I inserted these figures into my copy during that meeting in order to get a clear impression.
Then I made the remark which you can find under the heading "Remark" regarding what Sauckel's representative had mentioned under figures obtained by now, that is, during January; and this figure, which is under the heading "Germans" at the top, refers, however, to the entire page, that is, workers altogether. He states that in January a total of 145,000 workers arrived. That was again taking into consideration fluctuations. He never states in that connection which were really new arrivals; and this figure deviates from a figure states previously which he had reported to Speer's armament office and which was 160,000. That was the figure of which General Weger from the armament department states that it was all untrue -- only 14,500 altogether have ever arrived. Here we come to a point where we quote Sauckel having given untrue reports.
Then below that there is an explanation of the items which make up that 145,000. It says 40,000 bombing injuries, that is, people in factories which had been damaged, factories which had been destroyed. That 40,000 must be taken into consideration.
Q. What do you mean, "taken into consideration"? Are you talking about workers?
A. Yes, those are the factories, those are the workers from factories of which he says they can be newly introduced into the figure because they are from old factories which have been knocked out. Then he states that he is expecting 16,000 Italians; and he also states that, owing to fluctuations from factories which were not destroyed, there will be a transfer of workers numbering 50,000.
I went on to say that if he wanted to stand up to the conclusion that he states; if he wants to fulfil his program for February, he will need another 500,000 workers for February and March of that year. But, of course, about those no news was available at the time to the effect of whether they were going to come or whether they were not. On the other hand, if I compare this figure with the asserted figure of 145,000, then I could see that it would be most difficult for February and March to place at the disposal of industry another 500,000.
But I did see much more clearly, considering that he had only really supplied 14,500. That is the sense of the statement here. It would be a certain impossibility to attain 500,000 workers in February and March, that is to say, as far as I was concerned. These figures made it abundantly clear that the considerable increase of steel demanded by Hitler for the second quarter of 1944 would fall down because of the shortage of labor. It is at that moment and at that time that I came to the decision that the steel contingent should not be increased in the quarter but that if anything the amounts for the first quarter should definitely be distributed to priority holders.
This was decidedly one of the most important tasks for a man from the Central Planning Board. My responsibility was all the greater since unfortunately Speer because of his sickness could not be present during that meeting. Since both Funk as well as Koerner were not up-to-date on this subject, the weight of this task during that meeting was entirely upon my shoulders. Then I wrote below once again -- that is in my handwriting. That means on the first quarter of 1944 Sauckel is expecting approximately 650,000 men. That means 145,000 for January and 500,000 which he only is going to try to get hold of for February and March. Once again I reduce this figure by 100,000 with reference to the statement he just previously had been making, namely, what he thought he was going to be able to place at our disposal during the first quarter of 1944.
May I have your permission to ask whether I have explained sufficiently and clearly the Sauckel figures which were written on the moon, which could not even through a superficial possible check to be found to be correct.
Q. Mr. Witness -- I am perfectly convinced.
A. On the same page on the sheet I have also mentioned in handwriting, just what Berg is describing as Sauckel's plan for the entire year, in connection with which Sauckel probably first of all quoted the last figure at the bottom, because there we have those four million approximately of workers, and 200,000 of which were entirely of Hitler's demand made on 4 January, and he asked Sauckel what figure he wanted to serve, and that he, Sauckel, wanted 1.5 millions of the Italians to be brought alone. Sauckel was making apologies during that meeting that he was trying with Italy first of all to come to an agreement about this question of armament. He expected one million to be expected from France, and he referred to the agreement made with Lavalle; expected 250,000 from Belgium, and 250,000 from Holland. Once again based on the agreement existing with the two governments in question, then he refers to these figures to bring 600,000 people from the East, and that he would also additionally mobilize 500,000 Germans. That is adding, and I am coming to the part there where the man said, "Wait a minute, we have to have 100,000 from the Balkans." I said, "All right, that makes it two millions." Now there is an additional statement from what has already been said during the Hitler conference, on January 4th, which was about the date of it, that 2.5 million people would be necessary coming from a fluctuation, which would also be able to take care of the fluctuation; but I repeat that it would be not new laborers, but it means the old German and foreign workers we already had, and who were already working in Germany's economic program. Below that we serve 1.3 million new workers, and that refers to an order made during the Hitler conference, which also corresponds to the demand made by the Armament Ministry of Speer, ordered there at the time, and also been referred to as Speer's figures in these minutes.
They were supposed to be obtained now, and then there is the figure of 250,000 a special demand 1906-A made by Hitler personally, which arose from the meeting of the 4th.
The idea was that these people were to be used for anti-aircraft construction work on behalf of the population, and I think that Hitler on that occasion said, "I want 100,000 of those in Vienna alone to be taken from the population there to make bunkers for the population. This total figure then was four million fifty thousand, and I wrote below that Fuehrer conference, "The Fuehrer Conference Special." On the right hand side you will find the figure which had been previously inserted with a typewriter. These figures gave the total figures of laborers in Germany at the time. At the head there is Agriculture, then Forestry, then Armament and War Production, and, then under numeral III and so on, I think I don't need to go into this in detail, but it is quite interesting, I thought, the total, as then being mentioned, which at the time was on 31 May 1943, was actually available. I presume that was the last account that was available, which were up to date, something which at first was something one could not justify, either, because that particular fact after all was not available, and changes taking place, as you know, were very rapid. Altogether 35,901,000 workers were available in Germany. This built up in male Germans about fifteen-one-half million, and the female just fourteen million, a total of not quite thirty million. Then follows the foreigners, male 3,119,000 and the female 1,460,000. Then follows the column Prisoners of War, 1,585,000, and then we come to the new column, that is, who is going to get these workers during the first quarter of 1944. Sauckel's figures named the amount for Agriculture, and to him what could be drawn into that figure. Speer's Armament Department so far as these figures meant had obtained these figures previously from Sauckel, and they had put them here in the document, so that we can see that Agriculture was asking for 200,000. Forestry and Timber industry was 48,000; Armament and War production, including those of coal and iron, and all of that, and also the building industry, and the power industry have 1,700,000 and then an additional 100,000 with reference to the place at the bottom was for removal of air raids, and they would fall outside the Reichsministry for Armament and War Production. In other words, outside of the actual organization of Speer's sphere, this one point certainly did not account to Speer the air force figures, that is obtained altogether in this industry in the Speer Department, because it is not listed and the air force industry, its command of the organization did come under Speer's Ministry.
Then follows Traffic, 70,000 and then comes Distribution, that is Commerce, Banks, Insurance and such, 60,000. That is followed by the Administry figures. From that figure for Administration Civilian and Administration Military, the Military Administration is asking for 126,000. This is a certain total regarding the demand for the first quarter of '44, at the bottom was about 2,104,000 and this was the form in which it was handed to me for that meeting. That is right at the side, and then the discussion showed in Administration, after that named figure I asked -- first, Mr. Backe if he was in actual need of this 200,000 people straight away, he answered yes because these are people I have placed at the disposal of Armament workers for the winter, but in addition I need another 200,000 for the rest of the year, that is later on, not during the third quarter. Immediately preceding they did make a new request which did not interest us a bit. Then followed Forestry, 48,000. I did account for what it was. Then there are two columns, and down there in my handwriting, one is Alphos the Chief of Forestry 25,000 and one is 15,000. Mr. Sauckel is stating those figures talked of Forestry, and when I calculated on 40,000 I then saw that 8,000 can be saved in this connection.
Then followed point three, Armament and Work Production, where it states at the bottom 1.7 millions. Following that I have written at the top of the document "Immediate requirements 544,000." Then the remark further to the right is not connected with this. That was some additional calculation I made later, which does not belong to this story -- this part of the story. Your Honors will be able to see from the figures at the bottom of the second sheet, that instead of 1.7 millions, I only put down 544,000, as being justified, from my point of view; and the figure which is below 1.7 millions in the entry which was made of 100,000 required, in that form I accounted approximately for 15,000, but actually it was 14,735; this reduction I made. The figures for the Transport System, 70,000 I struck off, after having discussed it with the experts.
Likewise, with the Banks and Commerce, to ask for 60,000. I struck that out, too, because I saw that number was not justified for the war. Then in the case of the Administration, the demands were being made by representatives who were present, and who were stating that it was with those figures they could not do anything, which was out of the question, and then there is Public Administration, which had the figure 0 before in addition in the document now suddenly demanded 62,000, and for the Military Administration the demands were made from 130,000 and that was an increase of 4,000, and set at the bottom of this were the stab and anti-aircraft auxiliary figures. The OKW were asking for 80,000, and out of that figure 46,000 of this went to the antiaircraft auxiliary, who were, of course, the German girls - GL, to be asked for by that Ministry there, which was in that connection an increase, so that in the end we arrived at an increase of 192,000, and that is the figure I put down in that manner, because I could not make any reduction for the OKW and my own Ministry in this connection, because on the one hand I could not overlook the reality and necessity of this request, and, secondly, because we were interested in the German girls who were possibly not employable in other spheres, since Hitler in the war employment of German women, even at this particular time, had imposed and was maintaining far reaching restrictions.
If Your Honors will then take the second page, which is executed on the typewriter and which, as I said, I could not check since it seems to have appeared later, then Your Honors will find on the left under the heading of "Necessary Requirements for the Fourth Quarter", inserted with the typewriter, the same figure which I had inserted in handwriting in the older copy, namely, 2,137,000.
In the following column final requirements are listed, and there my figure of 650,000 is calculated more accurately at 645,000, and that is put at the top as the final requirements of the Plenipotentiary for Labor; that is, Sauckel. But, opposed to my statement from the first sheet where 645,000 was meant to be the total of that calculation, one apparently obtained new figures from Sauckel, so that only 645,000 Germans are shown at the top.
In connection with them, I am perfectly convinced that there is a mistake of logic on the part of Speer's Planning Office, because quite certainly it was impossible to raise so many Germans during that particular quarter.
Then at the bottom Polish seasonal workers for agriculture are listed, amounting to 60,000. As has once been explained in this courtroom, even in peacetime seasonal workers were always coming from Poland; harvesters, that is, and the total number of suck workers exceeded the figure of 60,000.
Then there is the new insertion on the returns from the armament and agricultural system, the figure of 200,000, so that final requirements here amount to 905,000, which, however, could, not in reality even be remotely expected. However, we did not have any documentary evidence of our own; not even Speer did. This had to be accepted in the shape in which Sauckel or his representatives reported.
Q Witness, perhaps at this point there could be a short interval, for presumably this is going to take ten minutes, is it not? Just as Your Honors wish, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: Let's go on for ten minutes.
A. The only possible comparison necessary is that of the three small columns on the right which deal with the first quarter in 1944. There appears 1910-A quite suddenly and contrary to the statements which I had made during the meeting, under agriculture an additional 130,000, for the group dealing with the use and distribution of foodstuffs, so that agriculture suddenly leaps up to 330,000.
My estimate had not been accepted by Speer's Ministry, and I think that is clear proof that the figures which I had put it and suggested originally did not represent instructions or orders but merely proposals and that Speer's official considered himself to be completely at liberty to deviate from those proposals of mine without informing me personally of such action. This is nothing extraordinary. It was a perfectly ordinary procedure.
Then follows the list by industry with 40,000 in accordance with the proposal, and then comes the large scale reduction for armament and war production, where my suggestion of 544,000 is adopted. The reduction I made for the traffic system was understood, I assume, because the 85,000 had been put under the Air Raid Precautions, which is only 1,700,000, and they put 85,000 at the bottom. During distribution my proposal is followed, and that figure is struck off.
For public administration the reported figure of 62,000 had somehow been reduced to 27,000 in Speer's department in the meantime, but my other figure of 130,000 for the military administration is now suddenly increased to 165,000, because, as it says at the bottom under Remarks, the German Red Cross is asking for 35,000 Red Cross auxiliary workers. However, in order to stay within the 192,000 which is the total, one is shortening the administrative figure so that the final figure remains the same in this column.
The total at the bottom, including everything, however, departs from 2,400,000 and goes down to 1,291,000.
Now, if my suggestion had been followed, then it would have decreased to 950,000, so that Speer's Ministry was considering approximately 550,000 more than what I had said to be justified, and this meant the last word on this question having been spoken. My suggestion had been partly met, but I had been particularly interested in reducing the figures for armament and war production, and that I had been successful with.
Most of all, if you consider that fluctuation figure, it had, at any rate, amounted to more than 60 per cent of the total requisitions -something shown in the first column -- and if you consider a fluctuation of 2.5 million of these Hitler workers, that is, 1.3 million workers whom Speer had newly acquired and 205,000 of Hitler's other workers, this meant nothing more than that 540,000 for armament and war production were already in existence through transfers, amounting to 550,000 people who were already there, whereas Sauckel was faced only with the task of newly producing 250,000, approximately, for that quarters, but I have said that if he was supplying 40,500 for January and was not supplying many more for February and March, he would probably supply 50,000, and that meant that an increase of the program through Hitler for the armament program could not be carried out and must, therefore, be pictured in that manner in the reports from the Central Planning Board.
At the side of this column on which I have just reported there is another column containing suggestions for allocations. It ends at the bottom, 950,000 which can be expected for allocation, and that figure corresponds with the left hand side where once again, as was to be expected for the first quarter, 950,000 are quoted.
If I look at this, I become aware of the fact that on the right hand side one first of all proceeded to say, "Let's give these people about 900,000 in order to meet their most urgent demands," but one also says that armament and war production are not going to get the 544,000, but only 400,000, and administration -- that is all these girls for antiaircraft work which were to be 192,000 -- they were only to get 55,000, so that at the bottom through these reductions we arrive at 905,000, and that is the figure which on the left hand side Sauckel's man had probably inserted after the meeting of 16 February and submitted to Speer's Planning Office as their total which they were hoping for and had to expect.
Finally, with reference to this part of my testimony, may I say that with reference to the second thing which, of course, I must have had a copy of, I did not take cognizance of it at all. So far as I was concerned, the 1912 matter was settled when the meeting was over, and all I had to know about the whole problem was clear:
Namely, an increase of the armament program was not possible, that I as the responsible person during Speer's absence, would no longer distribute more steel, as had previously been the situation, and thirdly, that I had the inner satisfaction of being able to show these various people, with reference to their high figures, that I could push them down and that I was able to prove to them that their demands were excessive, and fourthly, I knew now that Sauckel's figures were untrue and that the next time when Speer or I reported to Hitler I could now give an accurate report of this, namely that the increase of the armament production is not dependent on the raw materiel allocations nor is it dependent on Speer's production of raw materials. After all, I did have to protect Speer when he was absent. The reason for the lack of increase is contained solely in the question: Sauckel can not furnish any more workers. We can not increase our worker total; according to these figures we are already in difficulties. Regarding the combating of fluctuations, I must point out that from now on the armament program, too, will decline, because figures relating to workers will have to decrease as times goes on.
THE PRESIDENT: There.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No.2 is again in session.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you told us now about the way this session was carried out, mainly the 53rd Session of Meeting of the Central Planning Board, and that was later on either confirmed or partly altered. Now I want you to finish your statement concerning the 53rd Meeting and to go into details.
A. For the time being I must rectify a certain figure. I have said before that Sauckel in January, in reality would have only brought 14,500 people. However, I looked it up in the records and there were only 13,500 people. From this record, it can also be seen what we thought was the main thing of the whole work. I say that, "For the time being, the defense -- the home defense -- must be brought into order," and by this I mean the air defense. "Only then, we have the possibility to have a basis on which we can rearm and be able to wage a war and which we can live on and be able to continue our work. And it is here that the Luftwaffe must come into action by throwing the enemy out of the home land. We must see to it and try to avoid that the armament industry and whatever goes with it, namely the homes, etc., are not destroyed. The destruction of the homes and of the living possibilities for the workers are bottlenecks against which we have to fight." I must point out this sentence because I will show later on that this was one of the points of my main program. In this record, there are many words which come from me which point to the question of the unit statistics.
I say, for instance, "It is important that clear terms are created, not only for ourselves but also for the gentlemen higher up." By that I meant Hitler and Goering. And then I suggest, "Couldn't the Planning Office," namely, Speer is meant by that, "together with the Plenipotentiary for Labor, and you, General Waeger," that is the Armament Staff or Office of Speer," "Couldn't you clarify the question of the terms which we have to enforce here?" And in order to get a clear cut picture, namely what is the assignment, what is the additional demand - in other words, multiplication - what is the fluctuation, etc., etc., when this is cleared, we have a secure basis for our discussion.