A. With reference to such questions many things were said but nothing was authentical, nothing was clear. Nothing but rumors.
Q. Well, perhaps we Can pass to another document. The next document is--were you at a meeting of the General Lufzeugmeister on 26 August 1942?
A. No, I was not, at least not according to ray notes.
Q. Your notes could be wrong.
A. Of course, it is quite possible that I have omitted something. I couldn't swear to that. However, on that day I noted many other things which enable me to recall these events quite clearly.
Q. This is an excerpt from the conference of the Generalluftzeugmeister on 16 august 1942 which the original records show was presided over by the defendant. It is Document NOKW-416, and it is offered as Exhibit Number 142 for identification. On the first page Frydag is speaking; "Another Important consideration is the letter which you yourself have signed, Field Marshal, dealing with the expiration of the labor contracts of the foreign workers. The investigation has shown that, for instance, the firm Junkers Aero Engines loses 38% of its foreign labor on account of the expiration of the labor contracts, while the IFA loses 34%, the Hakenfelde plant for aeronautic instruments 42%, the United German Metal works 17%, Arado 18%, DaimlerBenz, Genshagen 26% and Heinkel, Rostock 10%."
And then you spoke: "The Reichsmarshal wanted to bind these people by law at one time; that was one idea. The Fuehrer's plan would be more favorable. Re wishes that these workers be gradually all replaced by Russians for whom there is no longer such a thing as expiration of contracts."
Then someone interpolated, "But there is a certain transition period."
Then Brueckner spoke up: "You, Field Marshal, have yourself put your signature to this matter. The contracts are to be extended until 1 October 1943. I hope that it will be done." Do you recall that?
A. I remember the fact itself. I remember that I had made a metion, through Goering in this particular case, that from that source negotiations should be taken up with all those laborers whose contracts would have expired. You can see from the words mentioned by Brueckner how important this question is and he mentions our request to extend the contract at least until the 1st of October, and Brueckner says that he hopes that it could be done.
Q. The extension in all cases was, of course, voluntary?
A. It should be voluntary, yes, because the fact that the contracts expired and the ensuing calamity sufficiently proves that the contracts in question wore voluntary contracts That is, if the contracts were initially entered into voluntarily so far as the workers were concerned, they were voluntary?
A. Yes, otherwise they couldn't possibly terminate their contract it says explicitly here by expiration of labor contracts." They were voluntary contracts which at the time as far as I can remember, had boon signed for a period of six months. That was a very short time because the people in question had to be trained at first and then we had the bad luck that at a given date a particularly large number of the workers terminated their contracts and it was quite natural therefore that we could only suggest that these contracts be renewed or extended.
Consequently we expressed the desire for a minimum length of time as of 1 October. From Brueckner words, "I hope that it will be done," can be seen clearly that this was not for us to decide, but that he just hoped that this matter will be dealt with favourably by the competent agencies.
Q. Well, then we go on. Frydag says: "An altogether false picture is given by the file note according to which 403,000 workers have been assigned while in reality we have only an asset of 60,000. That is another piece of luck for if we had not got the 90,000 FL workers free, in spite of the assignment we would still have a deficit of 30,000 for the entire Luftwaffe."
And then you said "it is true that a number of these people have been drafted Into the armed forces, but I consider the others I'll arrive all the same at a monthly total of about 30,000 who slack and move around from job to job. According to the suggestions of the Relchsmarshal these people are to come under the c care of Himmler and are to be handled quite severely there. What has been done so far in this regar? Brueckner you know about this matter, don't you?"
2133a Brueckner:
"Yes."
"You do not seem to be informed quite correctly. Some time ago we were quite irritated about the fact that so many workers move about from one factory to another, most of them are anti-social elements who do not like to work and whom the firms are possibly glad to get rid of because they do nothing but complain and grumble, do no proper work, are constantly late, shirk work where they can, pretend to be sick, etc. These people were supposed to be handled more severely and about a year ago the Reichsmarshal issued an order and gave the Ministry of Labor the job of dealing with this matter firmly. Then the Ministry of Labor issued an explanatory order which was nothing but a sabotage of the order and tie desire oppressed by the Reichsmarshal, I reported to the Reichsmarshal in the very words which I have just used -- that in this case his will was clearly being sabotaged by some lawyers or other poor fellows and that I asked him to take measures against it. He told me that he would talk the matter over with Himmler. That is, I had suggested to him that this matter could only be settled with the help of Himmler's organization. The armed forces are not in a position to do it. The suggestion had been made that the armed forces should take care of these people in camps but these workers are not ready for that. They have not been condemned and in no way violate the existing laws, but act only against their country which certainly does not yet come within the sphere of the old legal nonsense. That is why Himmler should get these people into his clutches because he can treat them inside the low. My suggestion was that the people should be put into the camps or, in part, just get numbers. The person involved could have a passport in man has been ill, or late thirty times in one month, then the SD takes him along and gives him a job in which he has to work fourteen hours a day and where he is treated in the way he deserves if he is not willing.
The Reichsmarshal has approved this suggestion. Nevertheless I have not yet seen anything of the kind being carried out."
Brueckner; "I know that such labor camps have been established."
Milch: "In that case I want you to tell me exactly during the next conference where these camps have been established, who is in charge of them, and how do we get these honorable gentlemen who do not want to work into them. In the Luftwaffe alone there were 30,000 last month. If we take the same figure for the army we have already 60,000. If you look at the total loss Germany has about 100,000 of these anti-social creatures who run around free, doing their duty neither at the front nor as workers at home. It is a simple matter to have these people t ken care of somehow by the SD. It has only got to be taken in hand. I want to have a report on it as soon as possible. Otherwise I will talk to Himmler about it myself and see that this matter is taken very firmly in hand. I see in these people the greatest danger for the home front."
Do yon recall saying that?
A. Not those actual words, and here again the experiment counts. However, I believe that in no place was it expressed in such a clear manner what kind of people these people were, and I believe that there is no other country in the World which, with reference to its own citizens who commit sabotage actions during the war, would not hold at them very firmly, because not only the loss of laborers is concerned here and to be regarded, but also the very bed example which these people give and this above all, the change of the good morale of millions of good people.
I repeat that they are criminals and pimps, and moreover as far as the rest are concerned, this order Was not addressed to us but to the Labor Ministry, as I found out later on; namely, by Goering himself.
And the Labor Ministry didn't do anything about this natter but they suggested to us 2135 (a) armament office, that we should institute camps on our own.
That was not our "business, however, because the Labor Ministry had to assign the people and also to care for them. That they wanted to drag us into this matter was wrong.
Q. Well now, you told. Brueckner to get you a list of how many of these camps had been established and who was in charge of them and how the people got into them. Brueckner told you that he knew the camps had been established.
A. I think that this was never put into execution because I told Brueckner later on, "This is none of our concern. We will not have anything to do with it."
Q. When did you tell him that, right after the meeting?
A. I think so because I know that this was never submitted to me and that we did not deal with that question apart from the fact that we used a lot of strong words about it. The question of the slackers, according to my recollection, went on until we gave it up later on because we, on our part, could not do anything about it.
Q. Did you tell the rest of the people at the meeting to nay no attention to this?
A. The other people had nothing whatsoever to do with it,and they did not receive any order to do so.
Q. What did the camps do then? Did they just sit around until the end of the war?
A. Yes, well, they had to discuss other things. This was just on the side. The main purposes were material questions, execution of our material program, or of our research program and to discuss these points.
Q. Well, what about these camps that had been set up that you asked Brueckner to investigate?
A. No such camp was ever instituted with us.
Q. Now, over on page 2102, it seems you have a little bit different idea about the extension of these contracts - page 6 of the original, your Honors.
You are speaking again and you say here: "You must get as many Russians in as possible. For a time compulsory extension of the contracts may help. But they cannot all be forced, for instance, it is not possible with Italians, Hungarians, and Rumanians. Furthermore, it has to be considered that the workers become unwilling and bad tempered when they are forced. Fundamentally you have always to reckon on an additional 20% in this distribution which includes altogether 43% foreigners, on account of the poor wartime capacity of these people. The desired output, after all, is based on the normal working power of a German. You have to add 20% in order to achieve the same result."
Ceyka: "We could always lower their rations in their home countries a bit; then they would have more incentive to work here."
And then you speak: "Yes, they must be better off here than at home. Verwald, you will clear up the matter of the 177 with Heinkel."
Vorwald: "Yes."
"When should the planes get to Oranienburg?"
Vorwald: "In September."
"Tell these gentlemen that I will accept no excuse if the planes do not come in September."
Frydag says: "He can make it by September, with the people from the concentration camps."
And then you say: "He could have had the people from the concentration camps half a year ago. That goes to prove how sleepy even normally active firms are if something new is involved."
Apparently you were going to extend the contracts of the Russians compulsorily. You weren't going to give then an opportunity if they, in fact, had any contracts.
Well, the question of understanding contracts was not in my hands. be had nothing to do with the question, and this whole muddle here can be seen from the fact that I said that they were better off here than they were at home. This docs not seem to have been taken down in shorthand correctly up here.
Q Well, Hungarians, Rumanians and Italians were your Allies, at that time, were they not?
A Yes, and they were also less workers, that is to say, they were volunteers.
Q And the Russians, of course, were not your Allies as the result of your attacking them in 1911, June, is that right?
A Yes, Germany had attacked Russia.
Q But the Russians you could keep over there, but you did not want to with the Italians, Hungarians and Rumanians?
A We could not do anything at all with all of them in any case, because we had nothing to do with it, and it was passed on to quite different agencies.
Q But you had people from the various agencies who were attending these meetings of the General Luftzeugmeister, didn't you?
A I did not quite understand. No, nobody was there from these other agencies, but contrary to the Central Planning Board, that was an internal matter within my organization, or within my office.
Q You presided at those meetings of which we read today, didn't you.
A Yes, sure, these GL meetings, yes. I was the GL at the time.
Q And these people, some of them went back to the factory where you had people working, didn't they?
A No, none of those from the factory were there with the exception of Frydag, who was mentioned here, who belonged to my Planning Committee. However, he had no power to contract. This contract went through Sauckel
Q But you at this meeting were saying that the contract should be extended compulsorily, if necessary?
A It is quite possible this was a misprint here. It is in contradiction to the statement given later on, and it also contradicts what I said before a few cages prior to this.
Q In a few pages before you just said that we'd do it voluntarily, that is what you got down?
A That is what I said, to compel them to work, and I say I probably did not say that word "Schwerezwald." It was probably misspelled here, or miswritten.
Q You did not want to compel anybody to work, did you?
A I only wanted to have people who would carry out our Armaments, and the other organizations than ours were responsible, namely, to see to it that we had the workers, but as there were constant failures, we were also worried about this problem. However, we could not interfere, because we had nothing to do with it.
MR. DENNEY: I think that is enough on that document, Your Honor, please.
Q Your record shows that you were present at the meeting on 3 September 1942?
AAs to the former meeting I would like to say that there must be some certain mistake s to the date, because on the 26th of August I don't believe these were suitable times for the GL meeting. On that day Gablenz who had accidentally died, was buried and he received a State burial, and I was the one who had to road the funeral oration, and then later on I left the place where the State burial took place, and I went to the cemetery, which was quite a long way from there. It is quite possible that there was a meeting on 28th August. There was a meeting on 28 August, and also on the 26 August. However, I doubt very much if it took place on the 26 August. Of course, it could be some sort of mistake in the shorthand report.
Q Yes, and we could be mistaken in our translation. However, we shall sec what we can do to correct the date, but you have no quarrel with the contents?
A Yes, as I have stated. I believe the date was playing a part in it, but I want to state that for the accuracy of my report, because in that I remember it so very well, and I do remember at that time I believe it said 11:00 o'clock, didn't it, and I was busy due to the burial. In other words, this is not the day for sure this time. May I ask you for a new date, please, Mr. Denney?
Q The new date is September 3, 1942.
A Yes.
MR. DENNEY: ill you just let me see that document, please. I just want to look at it for a moment, and I shall return it immediately. The original record is 26th, Your Honor. Maybe a typewritten error, and this is the photostatic copy of the original which was taken from the files in the British Air Ministry.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant recognized the occasion, anyway.
MR. DENNEY: Perhaps before this next document we can adjourn before we get started on it, your Honor. We are still getting it into shape, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
DR. BERGOLD: I have one request to make, Your Honor, namely, I would appreciate if this tribunal would order that the witnesses, General. Vorwald and General Reinecke, who are still at Numberg, may remain here at my disposal, so that the same tiring does not happen which occurred to General Roeder, when some kind of a magician simply snatched him away from me.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Marshal will be directed to inform the jail authorities that these two witnesses are not to be sent away until the conclusion of this trial.
MR. DENNEY: I trust that Dr. Bergold is not implying that the Prosecution has any magicians.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Bergold is speaking from a painful experience. He went through the experience of losing a witness entirely, who later turned up at a far distant point, and than could not be even located there.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, but I have been called many things but never a magician.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn on that line. This Tribunalis in recess until tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 093 0 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourns until 19 Milch 1947, at 0930 hours)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 19 March 1947 , 0930-1700, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHALL: All persons in the Court, please fine your seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. II. Military Tribunal No. II is now in session. God save the United Stares of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
MR. DENNEY: We've delivering to Dr. Bergold the photostatic copies of the complete minutes which he requested yesterday. I'd ask that the doctor handle them carefully and return them to us because they are the only copies that are in existence, so far as I know, in Germany.
If Your Honors please, we're now prepared to distribute NOKW-195, which was offered yesterday as Exhibit No. 134. This is the conference held on October 28, 1943 at Karinhall, with Goering, Speer, Sauckel, the defendant, and others. That's Exhibit 134, Your Honors; we assigned it a number yesterday and we didn't have it to distribute at the time.
CROSS EXAMINATION (continued) BY MR. DENNY:
Q Witness, did you know a man named Kammler or Kemmler, something like that, who was with the SS?
A You mean Kammler? Spelled with an "a", sir?
Q. K-A-M-M-E-R, was it?
A Yes.
Q What did he do?
A I knew him from the time of the Jaegerstab, and, at that time, he had something to do with constructions.
I believe those were the subterranean constructions--in caves. Those were the constructions that were being built on Georing's special orders, at first , while Hitler was in charge of the surface constructions.
Q. He built things for the Jaegerstab; is that right?
A. No, he was a liaison man to the Jaegerstab, bocause part of these underground constructions were also meant for the production factories of the Jaegerstab.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, May I interrupt to straighten out this record a little bit?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: I made a note of 134, yesterday, which was a letter from Frank to Sauckel, dated 21 November 1945. Was that wrong? I wonder if we've given the wrong number to this last exhibit which, you've just handed up?
MR. DENNEY: Could be, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We all have the same notation, and I think Dr. Bergold has -
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
MR. DENNEY: Well then -
DR. BERGOLD: Exhibit 134 was 908-PS.
MR. DENNEY: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I think this should be the next exhibit number.
MR. DENNEY:NOKW-195, then Your Honor, will become 143.
THE PRESIDENT: I think that's right.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: We never did get a copy of 908-PS , did we?
MR. DENNEY: No, Your Honor; that's being prepared.
Q (By Mr. Denney) Were you at a meeting of the Generalluftzeugmeister on 3 September 1942?
A I do not believe that it was an actual GL meeting. I believe that at that time there was a special meeting with the man in charge of the news service. He was the intelligence chief of the OKW, at the same time, of the Army.
Q What was his name?
A Fellgiebel.
Q Fellgiebel?
A Yes, General Fellgiebel.
Q (Spelling) F-e-l-g-i-e-b-e-l?
A No, no. (Spelling) F-e-l-l-g-i-e-b-e-l.
Q The next document is NOKW-286 which will be Exhibit 144 for identification. These are partial excerpts of a conference held on 3 September 1942. On page 2 which is page 2325 of the original, a man named Deutschmann is speaking. Who is Deutschmann?
A I do not know that. However, here I have a meeting of the 9th of September.
Q Yes. Well, the cover sheet that I have says the 3rd. Did you go to a meeting on the 9th? Will you look in your diary?
A No.
Q Well, let's go over the context and perhaps it will refresh your recollection. Deutschmann says: "Reports have come in from front repair workshops that up to 40% of the people simply do not come to work. Because of the difficulties in the food supply they simple go out into the country in order to have something to eat. At the workshop "Mechanische Werkstaetten (mechanical Workshops) I have found out that the Poles have not come because Russian pilots had dropped propaganda material. In one case, I have seen that about 50% of the workers failed to come."
And then you spoke "What do you do against that?"
Deutschmann says: "For the time being, I did not do anything."
And then you continued: "And where was that - in Warsaw? In such a case, orders have to be given that these workers get a good beating. And Russian prisoners of war are used to give it to them."
Deutschmann: "Just at the time when the Russians attacked I was planning to have 200 Poles transported to Western Germany in order to fill a gap in the hoop production there. The conditions of procurement in Warsaw were such that I could afford it; therefore, I had no special reason to take measures."
Then you spoke: "If those workers stay away from work just as they please, then they need a good beating and this punishment is to be administered by Russians. Contact the SD; tell them that these workers had failed to come to work and that I demand that they be punished and not by having their food taken away from them but by the slightly milder punishment of 50 strokes each."
Deutschmann: "Various unfortunate occurrences have happened together."
Then you spoke: "I don't care, these occurrences are none of my business. The unfortunate occurrence for the person involved is when he gets his good beating. And he should not fail to get it."
Deutschmann: "We have already drawn the attention of the Reichsfuehrer SS to it; something is going to be done about it."
Then you continue: "Such occurrences must not remain unpunished, they must not happen. If those people mutiny and do not work, then I demand that some shooting is done at those occasions. No do the same in Poland as the British do in India, with the only difference that the British deal with their own subjects whereas we deal with the enemy. I want none of our people ever to show lack of action. I make every Section Chief responsible to take measures to that effect immediately. He is not to administer the beatings himself but to go to the SD and demand that this or that is done. What kind of measures they take we will leave to the SD, but I want to have a report on what has been done, in such cases. What do you think would happen to a worker in Germany if he went on strike?"
Do you recall that?
A No, I don't. And on the 3rd of September I had not been to a GL conference anyway.
Q Have you ever said anything about beating Polish workers?
A No, I can't recall that. As I said before, on the 3rd I had not been to a GL meeting, and I only came back to Berlin in the afternoon, and I had a long conference concerning radio equipment and those people who were present there on the 9th -- there was no meeting whatsoever on the 9th. I was not at Berlin either.
Q I will hand you the cover page which precedes this particular note and look on the top there and see if you didn't put in your hand, ZMA, on it?
A My name is not on there.
Q Your name, no, but isn't that in your handwriting? Isn't that the same ZMA that appears on all these other notes?
A It could be, yes. However, it is not quite sure. Apart from that it says 10:00 a.m. On that particular morning I had started from Breslau at 8:52 a.m. and I arrived in Rechlin at 9:57 a.m., and I had those things shown to me and I looked at them and then in the afternoon from 3:12 to 3:34 I flew from Rechlin to Gardow; went to see the Air Minister because I had a conference on radio equipment there with the General of the Intelligence Division of the OKW and the Army. In other words, I was not in Berlin on that day.
Q There wasn't any other General Field Marshal Milch in the Air Force, was there?
A No, there was no other Field Marshal Milch. However, due to the inaccuracy of these records I consider it possible that there was quite a muddle.
Q Well, I suggest to you that you are probably the one man in the Generalluftzeugmeister that no stenographer keeping notes would ever mistake.
A That is absolutely impossible because all these things are dated very accurately by myself. After all, I had to write a log book as pilot.
Q The next document is NOKW-288 which will become Exhibit 145 for identification. This is a series of meetings, Your Honors, one of November 30, 1943; one of October 19, 1943; one of 25 January 1944; and one of 14 December 1943. Of the cover page of the meeting of 30 November appears the notation "to my files" with the defendant's characteristic signature, Mi. The same thing appears on the cover page of October 19; 1943, the same on the meeting of 23 January 1944; and the same on the meeting of 14 December 1943.
