Well, the question of understanding contracts was not in my hands. be had nothing to do with the question, and this whole muddle here can be seen from the fact that I said that they were better off here than they were at home. This docs not seem to have been taken down in shorthand correctly up here.
Q Well, Hungarians, Rumanians and Italians were your Allies, at that time, were they not?
A Yes, and they were also less workers, that is to say, they were volunteers.
Q And the Russians, of course, were not your Allies as the result of your attacking them in 1911, June, is that right?
A Yes, Germany had attacked Russia.
Q But the Russians you could keep over there, but you did not want to with the Italians, Hungarians and Rumanians?
A We could not do anything at all with all of them in any case, because we had nothing to do with it, and it was passed on to quite different agencies.
Q But you had people from the various agencies who were attending these meetings of the General Luftzeugmeister, didn't you?
A I did not quite understand. No, nobody was there from these other agencies, but contrary to the Central Planning Board, that was an internal matter within my organization, or within my office.
Q You presided at those meetings of which we read today, didn't you.
A Yes, sure, these GL meetings, yes. I was the GL at the time.
Q And these people, some of them went back to the factory where you had people working, didn't they?
A No, none of those from the factory were there with the exception of Frydag, who was mentioned here, who belonged to my Planning Committee. However, he had no power to contract. This contract went through Sauckel
Q But you at this meeting were saying that the contract should be extended compulsorily, if necessary?
A It is quite possible this was a misprint here. It is in contradiction to the statement given later on, and it also contradicts what I said before a few cages prior to this.
Q In a few pages before you just said that we'd do it voluntarily, that is what you got down?
A That is what I said, to compel them to work, and I say I probably did not say that word "Schwerezwald." It was probably misspelled here, or miswritten.
Q You did not want to compel anybody to work, did you?
A I only wanted to have people who would carry out our Armaments, and the other organizations than ours were responsible, namely, to see to it that we had the workers, but as there were constant failures, we were also worried about this problem. However, we could not interfere, because we had nothing to do with it.
MR. DENNEY: I think that is enough on that document, Your Honor, please.
Q Your record shows that you were present at the meeting on 3 September 1942?
AAs to the former meeting I would like to say that there must be some certain mistake s to the date, because on the 26th of August I don't believe these were suitable times for the GL meeting. On that day Gablenz who had accidentally died, was buried and he received a State burial, and I was the one who had to road the funeral oration, and then later on I left the place where the State burial took place, and I went to the cemetery, which was quite a long way from there. It is quite possible that there was a meeting on 28th August. There was a meeting on 28 August, and also on the 26 August. However, I doubt very much if it took place on the 26 August. Of course, it could be some sort of mistake in the shorthand report.
Q Yes, and we could be mistaken in our translation. However, we shall sec what we can do to correct the date, but you have no quarrel with the contents?
A Yes, as I have stated. I believe the date was playing a part in it, but I want to state that for the accuracy of my report, because in that I remember it so very well, and I do remember at that time I believe it said 11:00 o'clock, didn't it, and I was busy due to the burial. In other words, this is not the day for sure this time. May I ask you for a new date, please, Mr. Denney?
Q The new date is September 3, 1942.
A Yes.
MR. DENNEY: ill you just let me see that document, please. I just want to look at it for a moment, and I shall return it immediately. The original record is 26th, Your Honor. Maybe a typewritten error, and this is the photostatic copy of the original which was taken from the files in the British Air Ministry.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant recognized the occasion, anyway.
MR. DENNEY: Perhaps before this next document we can adjourn before we get started on it, your Honor. We are still getting it into shape, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
DR. BERGOLD: I have one request to make, Your Honor, namely, I would appreciate if this tribunal would order that the witnesses, General. Vorwald and General Reinecke, who are still at Numberg, may remain here at my disposal, so that the same tiring does not happen which occurred to General Roeder, when some kind of a magician simply snatched him away from me.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Marshal will be directed to inform the jail authorities that these two witnesses are not to be sent away until the conclusion of this trial.
MR. DENNEY: I trust that Dr. Bergold is not implying that the Prosecution has any magicians.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Bergold is speaking from a painful experience. He went through the experience of losing a witness entirely, who later turned up at a far distant point, and than could not be even located there.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, but I have been called many things but never a magician.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn on that line. This Tribunalis in recess until tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 093 0 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourns until 19 Milch 1947, at 0930 hours)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 19 March 1947 , 0930-1700, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHALL: All persons in the Court, please fine your seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. II. Military Tribunal No. II is now in session. God save the United Stares of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
MR. DENNEY: We've delivering to Dr. Bergold the photostatic copies of the complete minutes which he requested yesterday. I'd ask that the doctor handle them carefully and return them to us because they are the only copies that are in existence, so far as I know, in Germany.
If Your Honors please, we're now prepared to distribute NOKW-195, which was offered yesterday as Exhibit No. 134. This is the conference held on October 28, 1943 at Karinhall, with Goering, Speer, Sauckel, the defendant, and others. That's Exhibit 134, Your Honors; we assigned it a number yesterday and we didn't have it to distribute at the time.
CROSS EXAMINATION (continued) BY MR. DENNY:
Q Witness, did you know a man named Kammler or Kemmler, something like that, who was with the SS?
A You mean Kammler? Spelled with an "a", sir?
Q. K-A-M-M-E-R, was it?
A Yes.
Q What did he do?
A I knew him from the time of the Jaegerstab, and, at that time, he had something to do with constructions.
I believe those were the subterranean constructions--in caves. Those were the constructions that were being built on Georing's special orders, at first , while Hitler was in charge of the surface constructions.
Q. He built things for the Jaegerstab; is that right?
A. No, he was a liaison man to the Jaegerstab, bocause part of these underground constructions were also meant for the production factories of the Jaegerstab.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, May I interrupt to straighten out this record a little bit?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: I made a note of 134, yesterday, which was a letter from Frank to Sauckel, dated 21 November 1945. Was that wrong? I wonder if we've given the wrong number to this last exhibit which, you've just handed up?
MR. DENNEY: Could be, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We all have the same notation, and I think Dr. Bergold has -
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
MR. DENNEY: Well then -
DR. BERGOLD: Exhibit 134 was 908-PS.
MR. DENNEY: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I think this should be the next exhibit number.
MR. DENNEY:NOKW-195, then Your Honor, will become 143.
THE PRESIDENT: I think that's right.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: We never did get a copy of 908-PS , did we?
MR. DENNEY: No, Your Honor; that's being prepared.
Q (By Mr. Denney) Were you at a meeting of the Generalluftzeugmeister on 3 September 1942?
A I do not believe that it was an actual GL meeting. I believe that at that time there was a special meeting with the man in charge of the news service. He was the intelligence chief of the OKW, at the same time, of the Army.
Q What was his name?
A Fellgiebel.
Q Fellgiebel?
A Yes, General Fellgiebel.
Q (Spelling) F-e-l-g-i-e-b-e-l?
A No, no. (Spelling) F-e-l-l-g-i-e-b-e-l.
Q The next document is NOKW-286 which will be Exhibit 144 for identification. These are partial excerpts of a conference held on 3 September 1942. On page 2 which is page 2325 of the original, a man named Deutschmann is speaking. Who is Deutschmann?
A I do not know that. However, here I have a meeting of the 9th of September.
Q Yes. Well, the cover sheet that I have says the 3rd. Did you go to a meeting on the 9th? Will you look in your diary?
A No.
Q Well, let's go over the context and perhaps it will refresh your recollection. Deutschmann says: "Reports have come in from front repair workshops that up to 40% of the people simply do not come to work. Because of the difficulties in the food supply they simple go out into the country in order to have something to eat. At the workshop "Mechanische Werkstaetten (mechanical Workshops) I have found out that the Poles have not come because Russian pilots had dropped propaganda material. In one case, I have seen that about 50% of the workers failed to come."
And then you spoke "What do you do against that?"
Deutschmann says: "For the time being, I did not do anything."
And then you continued: "And where was that - in Warsaw? In such a case, orders have to be given that these workers get a good beating. And Russian prisoners of war are used to give it to them."
Deutschmann: "Just at the time when the Russians attacked I was planning to have 200 Poles transported to Western Germany in order to fill a gap in the hoop production there. The conditions of procurement in Warsaw were such that I could afford it; therefore, I had no special reason to take measures."
Then you spoke: "If those workers stay away from work just as they please, then they need a good beating and this punishment is to be administered by Russians. Contact the SD; tell them that these workers had failed to come to work and that I demand that they be punished and not by having their food taken away from them but by the slightly milder punishment of 50 strokes each."
Deutschmann: "Various unfortunate occurrences have happened together."
Then you spoke: "I don't care, these occurrences are none of my business. The unfortunate occurrence for the person involved is when he gets his good beating. And he should not fail to get it."
Deutschmann: "We have already drawn the attention of the Reichsfuehrer SS to it; something is going to be done about it."
Then you continue: "Such occurrences must not remain unpunished, they must not happen. If those people mutiny and do not work, then I demand that some shooting is done at those occasions. No do the same in Poland as the British do in India, with the only difference that the British deal with their own subjects whereas we deal with the enemy. I want none of our people ever to show lack of action. I make every Section Chief responsible to take measures to that effect immediately. He is not to administer the beatings himself but to go to the SD and demand that this or that is done. What kind of measures they take we will leave to the SD, but I want to have a report on what has been done, in such cases. What do you think would happen to a worker in Germany if he went on strike?"
Do you recall that?
A No, I don't. And on the 3rd of September I had not been to a GL conference anyway.
Q Have you ever said anything about beating Polish workers?
A No, I can't recall that. As I said before, on the 3rd I had not been to a GL meeting, and I only came back to Berlin in the afternoon, and I had a long conference concerning radio equipment and those people who were present there on the 9th -- there was no meeting whatsoever on the 9th. I was not at Berlin either.
Q I will hand you the cover page which precedes this particular note and look on the top there and see if you didn't put in your hand, ZMA, on it?
A My name is not on there.
Q Your name, no, but isn't that in your handwriting? Isn't that the same ZMA that appears on all these other notes?
A It could be, yes. However, it is not quite sure. Apart from that it says 10:00 a.m. On that particular morning I had started from Breslau at 8:52 a.m. and I arrived in Rechlin at 9:57 a.m., and I had those things shown to me and I looked at them and then in the afternoon from 3:12 to 3:34 I flew from Rechlin to Gardow; went to see the Air Minister because I had a conference on radio equipment there with the General of the Intelligence Division of the OKW and the Army. In other words, I was not in Berlin on that day.
Q There wasn't any other General Field Marshal Milch in the Air Force, was there?
A No, there was no other Field Marshal Milch. However, due to the inaccuracy of these records I consider it possible that there was quite a muddle.
Q Well, I suggest to you that you are probably the one man in the Generalluftzeugmeister that no stenographer keeping notes would ever mistake.
A That is absolutely impossible because all these things are dated very accurately by myself. After all, I had to write a log book as pilot.
Q The next document is NOKW-288 which will become Exhibit 145 for identification. This is a series of meetings, Your Honors, one of November 30, 1943; one of October 19, 1943; one of 25 January 1944; and one of 14 December 1943. Of the cover page of the meeting of 30 November appears the notation "to my files" with the defendant's characteristic signature, Mi. The same thing appears on the cover page of October 19; 1943, the same on the meeting of 23 January 1944; and the same on the meeting of 14 December 1943.
This becomes Exhibit 145 for identification. I ask that you look on the cover pages of those minutes and see whether or not you initialed them. They may be somewhat out of order.
19MA r-M-GES-3-1-Blakley (Simha)
A. It says here on the record, the 23rd of January; and here again it says, "To my records with Milich"; and then it says, "Mi"; and here again it says, "Mi ". On one of them Zmy name is not there; and the handwriting there concerning the files is different from mine.
Q. Then you admit that your signature appears on three of them?
A. Yes, indeed.
MR. DENNEY: In any event I might add here that all of these papers were taken from the files of the defendant in the Reich air Ministry in Berlin, captured by the RAF; and they are currently in the British Air Ministry at 17 Bunk Street London.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): You mean the files of this defendant?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
A. May I add something to this, sir? Verbatim records concerning GL meetings were only issued in two copies; and both of then were in my office, with my secretary. Apart from that there were no copies whatsoever in the whole building or anywhere also outside the building. The stenotypists did not keep a copy of them either as they were compelled to destroy the first take. In the RLM, when Germany surrendered there was no longer a copy left. In other words, they must have been brought lore from somewhere also than Berlin.
Q. But you don't dispute that many of those copies which we have shown you bear your initials?
A. No, not at all, I only wish to say that those records could not have been found in Berlin.
Q. Well, wherever they were found they were taken by the RAF to London where they presently are; and those are photostatic copies of them; and they were all taken together. Now, on Page 7929 of the original, Peterson is speaking and he is talking about the withdrawal of the 288 from Junkers.
He says: "Five hundred men could be composed of concentration camp inmates. Those five hundred could be obtained from Himmler. At present a list of names is being drawn up ."
Then you spoke, and you said: "For this purpose we would come to an agreement with Himmler. That we could do. I am convinced that even otherwise 2148(a) we could get the people somehow.
But I am also convinced that this request of one thousand men is an exaggerated request which is meant only to prove to us: You cannot meet your obligations and therefore we cannot get ready with our series. " Do you recall that?
A. I can't read the date here. That was the 19th of October, your Honor?
Q. No, this is the 30th of November.
A. That is of November, 19---?
Q. 1943.
A. Yes, indeed. On my cover page, however, it says October; and on the 19th of October there was a meeting; however, not on the 19th of November.
Q. No, the 30th of November. You also have been handed record of a meeting of the 30th of November.
A. On the 30th, I'm sorry. Yes, on the 30th of November there was a meeting.
Q. Do you recall talking about getting concentration camp inmates from Himmler on that date?
A . No, I don't; and I don't quite see what the question is about.
Q. Apparently it is about getting concentration camp workers to work for you.
A. As far as I can see it's all about Heinkel.
Q. Well, it doesn't make any difference whom it is about. Didn't you talk to Himmler sometime---?
A. No, I did not speak with Himmler about that. I have to think over for a moment what this question is all about. I already said before that at certain given time it was known to me that concentration camp inmates were being used at Heinkel's near Oranienburg; and this seems to be the question about the same thing. The remark I made here goes to show you that the demand for a thousand men by the industry seems exaggerated to me; and I say if we actually were given these thousand men, then we would be in a spot.
By that I mean according to my opinion they couldn't possibly 2149(a) use those people.
Q. Over a little farther in the same note you say: "Since with all this labor they still are very weak and still go on requesting labor, they cannot have produced anything in the past. From all this it appears clearly that these are phony requests which constitute a knowingly exaggerated demand," This is on Page 7930 of the original. "That they say is: you do not grant the necessary primary needs, that,is, the workers and therefore I cannot meet my deadline. How easy-going they are in this regard can soon be seen from the type 209 which was to come out in June. For this type only 165 workers in total were requested; and now we hear: we need an additional one thousand, and furthermore to hear: even then we cannot bring out the type 209 before the end of 1945 or the beginning of 1946. According to my opinion things like that should be brought before a court martial."
A. By that I mean that the firm which was responsible for this ought to be put before a court martial. However, there was no court martial, unfortunately that is one of my usual expressions.
Q. Yes , it seems to be. Now, down a little lower on the page you say: "That I am in a position to classify as key workers a thousand workers individually, that is no miracle." You could classify workers, couldn't you?
A. No, that is not what I mean by that. I am in a position to have checked up. I am speaking of another time where someone was to check up on this man. Then I say that it would be possible to classify and check up on the fact that they could use a thousand men in there and only a fraction of it. That wouldn't be a miracle, and further on I say I want to speak to Frydag and say that that has to be investigated. I say that we cannot permit the crazy demands to be made to us which cannot be fulfilled. I believed this is a clear proof that I stressed the point that all exaggerated requests of the Industry be rejected.
Q. They first brought the request to you, didn't they?
A. No, that isn't it. They sent the request to Sauckel. However, they informed us of the fact that they had made these requests; and furthermore they told us, "If Sauckel cannot give us these people, then we cannot fulfill 2150(a) our program."
Then we thought it over; and we said, "This request is somewhat exaggerated." I have taken the liberty of repeating several times that this was a main task of this agency in my office, that is, with reference to the exaggerated requests of the industry, to press those down to a certain minimum.
Q. If you told them to reduce their requests for labor they would do it. wouldn't they?
A. No, that has nothing to do with it. However, we ourselves sent them on to Speer who passed them on to Sauckel -- "We cannot fulfill the requirements of the industry or, rather, we cannot support it." On the other hand, we told this firm, "Your requests are false, much too high. We cannot allow this. If we hear anything else about this matter and if you make such exaggerated requests, file such requests with Sauckel."
Q. You always kept in touch with the labor situation to know whether or not their requests were exaggerated or normal?
A. That was a task which we had. That belonged to all agencies of every organization which had something to do with the armament. That is, if they found out whether the orders taken over from the industry could be fulfilled or not, with reference to the labor question or, more often, to the material question, and if the firm for instance said, "I need five thousand tons more aluminum," this all had to be examined by me to see that it was correct, so that I could inform the agencies in charge of the distribution of the material, I could tell them whether the request of the industry was correct or if it was not correct. Those labor agencies of Sauckel's, the labor offices, could not survey whether a request made by a factory was technically correct or not, so Sauckel had to assume that when the industry made demands they were justified. However, as we had experts or engineers for this purpose who could check up exactly whether the requests were correct or not. And it was our duty as a matter of course to report this to the superiors and also to tell our industry what they should not do. However, if we had not done that -
THE PRESIDENT: Try to keep the witness in hand, Mr. Denney. He is wandering.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, Your Honor, please.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Do you recall talking to Himmler in October on the matters of labor? Have a look in your diary and see if -
A. Can you tell me the date, sir.
Q. Sometime in October, the first week or so, 1943?
A. I did not discuss this in October with Himmler. I spoke to him on the 12th of April and on the 12th of November.
Q. Let's look at this meeting of 19 October 1943, page 8391 of the original, Your Honor, Midway of page with the defendant speaking:
"Gen. Field M. Milch: I do not want to reject it, but the man who submitted it is not a clever man. What these people want to do is certainly the following. The other day I talked to Himmler about it, and I told him that his main task should be to see to the protection of German Industry in cases of internal uprisings of the foreign workers (Botokuden). I said, that, consequently, a well established method should exist, and I have already given orders to the Chief AW and to the training stations to get military training in this field."
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I have to raise an objection. In the German copy it says: "A certain disturbance of the Botokuden for the protection of German industry." The words, "The internal trouble of the Botokuden" is missing in the English translation. "For any disturbance at the battle of Botokuden."
MR. DENNEY: Well, I think Your Honor can see this "Internal uprising of the foreign workers."
DR. BERGOLD: It is of the "Botokuden."
THE PRESIDENT: Will some one tell us what "Botokuden" is?
DR. BERGOLD: They are certain negro tribes.
MR. DENNEY: I am told that the term was used to apply to foreign workers as well. However, it is a small point, and we can pass it.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q (continuing) "I said that, consequently, a well established method should exist, and I have already given orders to the Chief AW, and to the training stations to get military training in this field. If for instance in the locality X, an uprising is started, then a sergeant with a few men, or else a lieutenant with 30 men to turn up in the plant, and first of all shoot into the crowd with a machine gun. What he should do after is to shoot down as many people as possible in cases of revolt. I have given orders to the effect even if our own foreign workers are involved. But first of all he must succeed in getting them all laid out flat on the ground. And then every tenth man is to be singled out and shot, while the others are lined up and see it. If our machines are being wrecked, etc. then such measures have to be applied. I said to Himmler: I'll go along with you in your efforts. He said: I want to know where the most important production plants are located. He approaches the armament production in general. I cannot know exactly where that is what they want, but I presume that that is it. Why should we oppose that? He would get that information from Speer anyhow."
You still say you did not talk to Himmler about this?
A. No, I did not discuss that point with Himmler.
Q. Well why were you telling people at the General Luftzeugmeister that you talked with Himmler, if you had not?
A. I cannot recall that today. However, I doubt it that this verbatim record here is correct, and somehow I was particularly excited, and I will say if our planes were being destroyed in the workshops, an energetic measure should be taken then.
Q. That is how you explain putting people on the ground by submachines and then lining them up and then shooting one out of every ten as energetic?
A. I think I cannot remember very well the whole instance myself, because in all of those cases when I was especially excited, I don't know myself what I said at that particular moment.
