I am getting old. "It concerned the valuation list of the industrial enterprises which are classified into security ratings 1, 2, and 3, thus deciding whether they should have anti-aircraft protection or not." What was his concern in this matter, witness?
2316A
A These were instructions which came from the OKW stating that there exists some disorder in the plant, and that their priority should correspond with the type of the laborers, and that such laborers be checked, to make sure that the anti-aircraft protection proscribed will be provided in such a way as to give due priority to the most important work.
Q Now let's continue. "I don't want to turn it down, but the man," that is Milch speaking, "I don't want to turn it down, but the man who submitted it is not a clover man. What these people want to do is certainly the following. The other day I talked to Himmler about it, and I told him that his main concern should be to provide protection to German industry in case of internal uprisings of the foreign workers."
A No, not at all, it docs not make sense.
Q Just a minute, then it goes on and says: "I said, that, in consideration thereof a well established method I hope should exist, and I have already given orders to the chief of AW and to the experimental stations to the effect that military training must be provided in this field."
A The Chief of the AW is the Chief of the training station, the entire training program of the pilots was under his control, and the experimental stations are those which came under the jurisdiction of my office; they came under the KDE.
Q Do you understand what these departments were to claim themselves with regard to the internal disquiet of the foreigners?
A The chief of the training system had everything to do with it, but in this country, well, that does not make sense at all.
Q Continuing: Then for instance in the locality "X" an uprising occurs a sergeant with a few men, or a lieutenant with 30 men arrives at the plant, and first of all fires into the crowd with his automatic gun with the intention of killing as many as possible.
This is the substance of the orders given even though our own foreign workers wore involved. Witness, did Milch, at any time give orders that in case of an uprising an officer should start fire into a crowd, or to take part in the matter.
2317A
A He had nothing to do with this matter, and as I recall it uprisings were dealt with by the police.
Q Then continuing: "But first of all he must succeed in laying them out flat on the ground, and then every tenth man is to be singled out and shot, while the others are lined up to watch it. If our machines and installations are being wrecked, then such measures will have to be adopted. I have told Himmler, I'll go along with you and he said, 'I want to know where the most important production plants are located.'" Now at the beginning it said, "The other day I talked with Himmler, and I told him that it would have to be up to you to take care of suck production, and now it said, I have told him I'll accompany you, "and then it goes on and says, "I can not know exactly whether that is what they want, but I presume that is meant by it. Why should they oppose that? He would get that information from Spoor anyhow. In reality, what does that have to do with aircraft production and I don't understand it at all, really I don't know what to do. It does not make sense to me." Witness, in the German language does this make logical sense?
A. No, something must be missing, or there is something which does not belong there.
Q At any rate, in the beginning it says that the plants needed anti-aircraft protection?
A Yes, that was a matter for which I am not competent. I know from our department--or from our main department that he had to cooperate in compiling this list which was completed in the Central Planning Office, but my advice with regard to the several plants was that he could not estimate the priority to be given as accurately as I could.
THE PRESIDENT: This is not so mysterious to me as it appears to be to you. The plants were threatened with uprisings among the foreign workers, which has nothing to do with plant protection. It is noted he voices some fear that there will be a riot or uprising among the foreign workers, and he proposes that if such uprising occurs he will appeal to Himmler, who commanded the SS, to put down the uprising in the manner indicated. What is mysterious about that?
DR. BERGOLD: No reasons why it should be mysterious, Mr. President, but nevertheless it is so because it does not make sense. It comes from Von der Heyde's statement regarding the anti-aircraft protection, and secondly, "I do not want to turn this matter down, but the man who submitted it is not a clover man. What these people want to do is certainly the following. The other day I talked to Himmler about it, and I told him that his main concern should be to see to it that protection is provided for the plants." Let's talk about the anti-aircraft protection. He said, "I don't want to turn this down," the anti-aircraft protection for machines. "But the man who submitted it is not a clover man," and, "You certainly ought to do this," and that he wanted to do that and he wanted antiaircraft protection, but he does not want uprisings - - that is not sensible, that is not logical. The theory is originally clear. But you are either an expert on anti-aircraft protection, or else you cannot hit anything, and he does not want to turn it down.
A Well, I don't get it at all. Quite frankly, I don't know what it is. This does not make sense to me.
Q Witness, in the German does this make logical sense?
A No. Something must be missing, or something was added which doesn't belong there.
Q At any rate, the beginning words of von der Heyde deal only with aircraft protection?
A Yes, that was a matter with which I am most conversant. I know my own department had to cooperate in compiling this list. It was completed by General von der Heyde's planning office, but he needed my advice in regard to several plants because he could not judge priority as accurately as I could.
THE PRESIDENT: This is not so mysterious to me as it appears to be to you. The plants were threatened with uprisings among the foreign workers. It hasn't anything to do with plant protection. Milch voices some fear that there will be riots or uprisings among the foreign workers, and he proposes that if such uprisings occur, he will appeal to Himmler, who commanded the SS, to put down the uprisings in the manner indicated. What is mysterious about that?
DR. BERGOLD: No. The reason why this is so mysterious, Mr. President, is that it does not make sense. It starts with von der Heyde's statement regarding anti-aircraft protection. Milch says, "I don't want to turn this matter down. The man who submitted this is not clover." No wants to say they don't want antiaircraft protection but protection against uprisings. That is not sensible. That is not logical. The first is so abundantly clear to every expert that he could not hit upon the idea of saying, "I don't want to turn it down. These people obviously want to do this and that." It does not have any internal connection or logic. It is bound to be wrong. At the end he says, "I can't know for certain whether this is it, but I assume that we are concerned with the matter."
All of this is not logically connected. According to the laws of logic, it does not make sense. Somehow this had been inserted somewhere else. Some one else may at that moment have said 2320-A something, but whether this comes from Milch or from whom this passage does originate and who has interpolated it at this point -that is something one cannot say.
Your honors, you can sentence a man on the basis of written statements only if these written statements are clear in themselves, This passage in its present form cannot have been said, because it is full of contradictions. There are two separate portions. One is uprisings, and one is anti-aircraft protection. Somehow they became mixed up but it is impossible to say who disarranged these parts. Originally, it started with antiaircraft protection, and then it deals with something quite different. You have heard from tie witnesses that 30 people were there and that the stenographer quite often could not see who had been talking.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there anything strange in Milch changing the subject? Is there anything strange that he talked about two different things?
DR. BERGOLD: No, but the reason why this is peculiar is that the introductory words in German -- According to German linguistic habits, you cannot change the subject like that. Every language has laws which you can break only if you are an imbecile or if you are exceptionally stupid, and if this man says, "I don't want to turn it down -- the anti-aircraft protection -The man who has put it before us is not clover. These people certainly want to do the following." These are the people who suggested anti-airraid precautions, and something has to follow which deals with air raid precautions, but what does follow is, "I talked to Himmler about it the other day." That is so madly stupid in the German language that it does not make sense at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, at the risk of being stupid in the English language, I should like to change the subject too and ask the witness what he understands by the word "Betekuden".A. "Betekuden", that was an expression which was used for some motley crowd of people.
THE PRESIDENT: It does not mean "negroes", does it?
A. No, no.
2321-A Dr. Bergold:
Originally, your Honor, it was a negro tribe.
THE PRESIDENT: There were no negroes working for the Germans, were there?
DR: Bergold: No. A mothley crowd of people.
THE PRESIDENT: A mob.
DR. Bergold: In the case of soldiers, when new recruits loafed about and were standing around stupidly, an officer would come up and yell at them, "You're standing around like Botekunden.". It is a German military expression.
BY DR. Bergold: Q. Witness, in a meeting of 18 January 1944 which has the same NoKW and Exhibit Number, there is talk about fluctuations once again and also about the fact that people were being lost throught this. Then Milich states, "Then you, Verwald, have to exert pressure, and likewise the KDE has the same principle that this has, that must not happen again. There is still enough work left which has to be done, and I would be thankful if Department VI would support me as well.". Does this mean that you had to restrict work if these workers were missing.
A. This is incomprehensible to me. May I read It?
Q. Yes, certainly.
A. Yes, now I understand. I had to read it first. Now It becomes clear. It deals with the entire system of changes. The changes in our case played an important part. Changes aggravated the manufacturing process in industry immensely, since tools and moving bolts were subject to continuous changes which made even production of aircraft and equipment impossible. This is the origin of the expression, "Then you should exert pressure and say that this or that may no longer be done, meaning that these changes demanded by the General Staff or the troops through the General Staff must cease so that production could continue.
*2322* smoothly.
That is what it means.
Q. Witness, now I have a different question. In a GL meeting dated 25 January 2322-A 1944, contained in the same document, there is talk of Czechoslovakian workers.
Are you up to date on that matter?
A Czechoslovakian workers? Yes. You mean work carried out in the Protectorate?
Q No, work done by Czechs in the Reich. They were to have a training period and I think they mean young workers meant for labor service. Well, of course, if you don't know anything about it, you don't need to answer.
Witness, I turn to Exhibit 147, NOKW 347. There Milch testifies with regard to Italian workers, and he says: "If accommodation of these people is not easy -- and I have seen how it was done in the East -- they were put into the factory and they will stay there until barracks have been erected. They can sleep next to their machines."
Is it known to you that anywhere in Germany German workers too slept next to their machines in the factories when their homes had been destroyed?
A Yes, it happened several times, particularly in times of frequent attacks. Then it happened that people just stayed in the plant and slept there.
Q Witness, I tun to NOKW 449, Exhibit 148, a meeting dated 2 March 1943. There Milch got excited about the fact that Poles or Frenchmen told people in factories, "Today you still find yourself in this plant, but later we'll be the owners, and if you treat us decently now, then we shall see to it later that you'll be shot dead right away, without being tortured first." Milch obviously got excited about this. Do you know about this matter?
A Yes, I have heard it said reportedly that such statements had been made in various plants.
Q Did Milch ever get terribly excited about it?
AAbout the statement? Yes, certainly.
Q Now, he says that he will see to it that only two types of punishment will be awarded for such statements, firstly, concentration camp, 2323-A and secondly, the death penalty, and if a certain number of such people have been liquidated and the others have been informed of this, then the others will work better once more.
Apart from that, he says the best procedure would be to hit a man who says a thing like that over the head with a mallet. Did he give any orders in that respect?
A. No.
Q. Did subordinates do it for him? Did they give such orders?
A. No, they could not have done it.
Q. Then he is speaking of sabotage acts, and he says, "If there is a case of sabotage in a locality then every tenth person from that locality will be shot, and then the sabotage will cease." You know the resulting orders that went out. Did any such order ever go out?
A. No, it could not have gone out, because we were not the authority to issue such order. These people were not under our jurisdiction, something which I have frequently told you about.
Q. Did you never hear that during a meeting of the GL an 30 November 1943, NOKW 414, Exhibit No. 149, Milch pleaded to the effect that Italians who were not working should be starved to death in Italy?
A. No.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Dr. Bergold, did this witness attend all these meetings?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: There is no evidence that he did, and what he knows about these meetings would largely depend on whether or not he was there. I have not heard any evidence that he attended all these meetings.
Court No. 2 (lrz)
DR. BERGOLD: It says so everywhere on the list of these present. You can see it at the head of those lists and all the exhibits which have been presented.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Each one?
DR. BERGOLD: Some sheets pertaining to these meetings are missing, because the prosecution submitted only separate sheets. They are only handing over a sheet and they that must be connected. In this connection the Prosecution is making it unusually difficult for us to submit our evidence. For instance, two sheets which refer to this meeting are being submitted without an accompanying list of these present and without the first list.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Dr. Bergold, it would aid us a good deal where the witness does not say he was present at the meeting, just ask him the question so we will know if he was there or not, because if he wasn't there what he knows about this meeting would be negligible.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well.
Q. (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, were you attending the meeting of 30 November, 1943?
A. I am not in a position new to remember the matter accurately, but I shall have to read from the records, and then I can tell you whether I was there or not.
DR. BERGOLD: He is listed here anyway. Please give that to the witness.
Q. Have a look at the first sheet. Is that your name?
THE PRESIDENT: It will be sufficient if you tell us whether the cover sheet shows he was present.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well, In all the records which I have submitted so far I have found his name.
THE PRESIDENT: Good.
Q. Witness, were you in attendance at the time when the Rautenbach factory at Wernigerode was inspected?
A. No.
Q. Witness, I shall turn to N.O.K.W. 241, Exhibit 152. Witness, is it known to you that the name of the defendant Milch was frequently misused by third sources in the way that they based their statements up on it?
A. Yes, that is well known to me. For instance, I can give you an example, a personal experience of mine when one of my subordinates misused the name of the Field Marshal too. This happened in 1942 in the autumn. I had just cleared out a flight at Kiev in order to attend the experiment with the bomb which we had developed jointly with the industry, and the fire fighting with which we were concerned. Large scale fire fighting squads had been employed, and in the evening the town governor of Kiev had invited me to the German restaurant there. I was surprised to see the lovely collection of things which he produced, and it was on that occasion that it was discovered that the town governor had been of the opinion that Field Marshall Milch was ping to attend this inspection something which this bomb development chief had told him at the time although that had never been true. The Field Marshal had never been asked to attend this inspection. This is just a small example.
Q. Was this reported at the time so that he would get a particularly good dinner?
A. Well, that was no of the reasons. They were expected to exert themselves in every way, they were to make special efforts, much more than if I had come alone.
Q. Witness, now I turn to document Exhibit 159, R-134. Your Honors, this is the so-called Torboven affair. Witness, are you familiar with the fact that the Reich Commissioner Torboven had a sabotage detail, who attempted to escape ***t down in Norway, that he had a village set on fire, and that he had people taken into a concentration camp?
A. Yes. Of course, I can't tell you now what the year was when that happened, but I do recollect that a story to that effect had been told in the Reich Marshal's office and came to us in connection with this.
Q. I think that I can refresh your memory. Here is the cover sheet with the names contained in the document.
A. This is it. In fact, I was rebuked by the Field Marshal. Someone working under me and Dr. Fischer from the development department, C-7, this was the German development department, apparently he was in direct contact with the Reich Marshal after that time, and I got a rocket and red neck. There was a sabotage troop which had been found which the secret service had handed over in order to cut out sabotage on aircraft. Me had been asked to examine this article and to make suggestions how one could protect oneself against such types of sabotage. When reading this report I saw how Torboven had acted against these people and escaping Norwegians, and I got considerably worked up and talked to the Field Marshal about it, and I can now remember very accurately a few days later in Rochlin the ReichsMarshal was attending a demonstration, it must have been about five or six days later, I can't give you the accurate date, but at any rate it was the first time that the ReichsMarshall returned to Rochlin after not having been there since 1939, because when he went there with the Fuehrer he was very pleased with the things he was shown, but during later years he became very annoyed about the fact that so much fog, such a fog screen was put down for him at the time, that it was on that day that the engineer corps, as far as they were there, were con siderably yelled at by him, and I remember now very accurately that subsequently the Field Marshall and Colonel General Jeschonnek, the Chief of the General Staff of the Air Force and I, had an opportunity to speak very briefly with the Reich Marshall, just the four of us, and I know that the Field Marshal referred to this report and states his opinion quite clearly to the ReichsMarshal regarding the type of action which Torboven was adopting in Norway.
It was on this occasion he had another attack of fury accompanied by a red neck and the ReichsMarshall also became pretty tough and told him to mind his own business, that this was a matter that Torboven was going to settle with the Fuehrer by himself, and nothing else happened subsequently.
Q. Witness, can you remember that on that occasion he misused a nasty word that he ascribed to Torboven in a certain thing?
A. Yes, he said the whole thing was a pig-sty business.
Q. Didn't he use the word "marodour"?
A. Yes, that might be so. I can't remember that in detail, but at any rate he called the whole thing a pig-sty affair, and he really got an attack of rage.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, will you recall please that the honorable representative of the prosecution, Mr. Denney, has put in detail to the defendant why he did not make demonstrations against this, and the defendant, you can look at the record pertaining to this, no longer reremembered that he had a furious clash with the ReichsMarshall Goering on this matter so that the prisoner did not testify he had a social red neck. And you will recall, your Honors, that several witnesses and the defendant himself have stated here that afterwards he never remembered a thing cf these matters which he said in his attacks of rage.
Now, if this man had known that he had objected to this Terbevon case with all his courage in front of the Reichsmarshall, then he would be able to answer the severe attacks made by Mr. Denney, because this is very important mitigating evidence. He just could not remember because it happened during an attack of rage.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, do you know that Milch quite often, when such an attack of rage was over, made inquiries of his people, what on earth he had been saying and whom he had been insulting and so on?
A Yes, I remember that. I remember that I had frequent conversations with Gablenz and von der Heyde, his successor, in the afternoons after such meetings, when the three of us went to see the Field Marshal, and when we told him that he'd raged a lot that morning, and that rather severe language had been used, he always used to say right away, that --
Q Go on, please.
A He used to say, "if I insulted you too, let me apologize," and that has always been an indication for us that he didn't even know what he said. Actually he never went against the two of us. That never happened during all that time, but, as to his expressions, he just apparently didn't remember them, or he wouldn't have assumed that he insulted us too, and I must say that these attacks apparently were connected with these two serious flying accidents. I remember that in 1942, that being the first year of our collaboration, Professor Kalk treated him continuously and was always giving him drugs because during these long meetings in smoky and badly-aired rooms he frequently had a sort of veil for his eyes and he told me a few times that he was just short of fainting. He was continuously getting drugs in order to fight these fainting fits. This condition improved at a later stage and only deteriorated again after his car accident at Stalingrad.
Q Witness, do you know that he made an application to Goering after Stalingrad to be relieved because physically he could not stand it any longer?
A Yes. At that time he was in a very bad physical condition. He had received fractures from that accident and he was in the hospital near Stalingrad for a lengthy period and he carried out his activities from there for some time. I know that at the time he urgently requested to be relieved from his offices but this wasn't granted, of course.