That is what it means.
Q. Witness, now I have a different question. In a GL meeting dated 25 January 2322-A 1944, contained in the same document, there is talk of Czechoslovakian workers.
Are you up to date on that matter?
A Czechoslovakian workers? Yes. You mean work carried out in the Protectorate?
Q No, work done by Czechs in the Reich. They were to have a training period and I think they mean young workers meant for labor service. Well, of course, if you don't know anything about it, you don't need to answer.
Witness, I turn to Exhibit 147, NOKW 347. There Milch testifies with regard to Italian workers, and he says: "If accommodation of these people is not easy -- and I have seen how it was done in the East -- they were put into the factory and they will stay there until barracks have been erected. They can sleep next to their machines."
Is it known to you that anywhere in Germany German workers too slept next to their machines in the factories when their homes had been destroyed?
A Yes, it happened several times, particularly in times of frequent attacks. Then it happened that people just stayed in the plant and slept there.
Q Witness, I tun to NOKW 449, Exhibit 148, a meeting dated 2 March 1943. There Milch got excited about the fact that Poles or Frenchmen told people in factories, "Today you still find yourself in this plant, but later we'll be the owners, and if you treat us decently now, then we shall see to it later that you'll be shot dead right away, without being tortured first." Milch obviously got excited about this. Do you know about this matter?
A Yes, I have heard it said reportedly that such statements had been made in various plants.
Q Did Milch ever get terribly excited about it?
AAbout the statement? Yes, certainly.
Q Now, he says that he will see to it that only two types of punishment will be awarded for such statements, firstly, concentration camp, 2323-A and secondly, the death penalty, and if a certain number of such people have been liquidated and the others have been informed of this, then the others will work better once more.
Apart from that, he says the best procedure would be to hit a man who says a thing like that over the head with a mallet. Did he give any orders in that respect?
A. No.
Q. Did subordinates do it for him? Did they give such orders?
A. No, they could not have done it.
Q. Then he is speaking of sabotage acts, and he says, "If there is a case of sabotage in a locality then every tenth person from that locality will be shot, and then the sabotage will cease." You know the resulting orders that went out. Did any such order ever go out?
A. No, it could not have gone out, because we were not the authority to issue such order. These people were not under our jurisdiction, something which I have frequently told you about.
Q. Did you never hear that during a meeting of the GL an 30 November 1943, NOKW 414, Exhibit No. 149, Milch pleaded to the effect that Italians who were not working should be starved to death in Italy?
A. No.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Dr. Bergold, did this witness attend all these meetings?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: There is no evidence that he did, and what he knows about these meetings would largely depend on whether or not he was there. I have not heard any evidence that he attended all these meetings.
Court No. 2 (lrz)
DR. BERGOLD: It says so everywhere on the list of these present. You can see it at the head of those lists and all the exhibits which have been presented.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Each one?
DR. BERGOLD: Some sheets pertaining to these meetings are missing, because the prosecution submitted only separate sheets. They are only handing over a sheet and they that must be connected. In this connection the Prosecution is making it unusually difficult for us to submit our evidence. For instance, two sheets which refer to this meeting are being submitted without an accompanying list of these present and without the first list.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Dr. Bergold, it would aid us a good deal where the witness does not say he was present at the meeting, just ask him the question so we will know if he was there or not, because if he wasn't there what he knows about this meeting would be negligible.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well.
Q. (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, were you attending the meeting of 30 November, 1943?
A. I am not in a position new to remember the matter accurately, but I shall have to read from the records, and then I can tell you whether I was there or not.
DR. BERGOLD: He is listed here anyway. Please give that to the witness.
Q. Have a look at the first sheet. Is that your name?
THE PRESIDENT: It will be sufficient if you tell us whether the cover sheet shows he was present.
DR. BERGOLD: Very well, In all the records which I have submitted so far I have found his name.
THE PRESIDENT: Good.
Q. Witness, were you in attendance at the time when the Rautenbach factory at Wernigerode was inspected?
A. No.
Q. Witness, I shall turn to N.O.K.W. 241, Exhibit 152. Witness, is it known to you that the name of the defendant Milch was frequently misused by third sources in the way that they based their statements up on it?
A. Yes, that is well known to me. For instance, I can give you an example, a personal experience of mine when one of my subordinates misused the name of the Field Marshal too. This happened in 1942 in the autumn. I had just cleared out a flight at Kiev in order to attend the experiment with the bomb which we had developed jointly with the industry, and the fire fighting with which we were concerned. Large scale fire fighting squads had been employed, and in the evening the town governor of Kiev had invited me to the German restaurant there. I was surprised to see the lovely collection of things which he produced, and it was on that occasion that it was discovered that the town governor had been of the opinion that Field Marshall Milch was ping to attend this inspection something which this bomb development chief had told him at the time although that had never been true. The Field Marshal had never been asked to attend this inspection. This is just a small example.
Q. Was this reported at the time so that he would get a particularly good dinner?
A. Well, that was no of the reasons. They were expected to exert themselves in every way, they were to make special efforts, much more than if I had come alone.
Q. Witness, now I turn to document Exhibit 159, R-134. Your Honors, this is the so-called Torboven affair. Witness, are you familiar with the fact that the Reich Commissioner Torboven had a sabotage detail, who attempted to escape ***t down in Norway, that he had a village set on fire, and that he had people taken into a concentration camp?
A. Yes. Of course, I can't tell you now what the year was when that happened, but I do recollect that a story to that effect had been told in the Reich Marshal's office and came to us in connection with this.
Q. I think that I can refresh your memory. Here is the cover sheet with the names contained in the document.
A. This is it. In fact, I was rebuked by the Field Marshal. Someone working under me and Dr. Fischer from the development department, C-7, this was the German development department, apparently he was in direct contact with the Reich Marshal after that time, and I got a rocket and red neck. There was a sabotage troop which had been found which the secret service had handed over in order to cut out sabotage on aircraft. Me had been asked to examine this article and to make suggestions how one could protect oneself against such types of sabotage. When reading this report I saw how Torboven had acted against these people and escaping Norwegians, and I got considerably worked up and talked to the Field Marshal about it, and I can now remember very accurately a few days later in Rochlin the ReichsMarshal was attending a demonstration, it must have been about five or six days later, I can't give you the accurate date, but at any rate it was the first time that the ReichsMarshall returned to Rochlin after not having been there since 1939, because when he went there with the Fuehrer he was very pleased with the things he was shown, but during later years he became very annoyed about the fact that so much fog, such a fog screen was put down for him at the time, that it was on that day that the engineer corps, as far as they were there, were con siderably yelled at by him, and I remember now very accurately that subsequently the Field Marshall and Colonel General Jeschonnek, the Chief of the General Staff of the Air Force and I, had an opportunity to speak very briefly with the Reich Marshall, just the four of us, and I know that the Field Marshal referred to this report and states his opinion quite clearly to the ReichsMarshal regarding the type of action which Torboven was adopting in Norway.
It was on this occasion he had another attack of fury accompanied by a red neck and the ReichsMarshall also became pretty tough and told him to mind his own business, that this was a matter that Torboven was going to settle with the Fuehrer by himself, and nothing else happened subsequently.
Q. Witness, can you remember that on that occasion he misused a nasty word that he ascribed to Torboven in a certain thing?
A. Yes, he said the whole thing was a pig-sty business.
Q. Didn't he use the word "marodour"?
A. Yes, that might be so. I can't remember that in detail, but at any rate he called the whole thing a pig-sty affair, and he really got an attack of rage.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, will you recall please that the honorable representative of the prosecution, Mr. Denney, has put in detail to the defendant why he did not make demonstrations against this, and the defendant, you can look at the record pertaining to this, no longer reremembered that he had a furious clash with the ReichsMarshall Goering on this matter so that the prisoner did not testify he had a social red neck. And you will recall, your Honors, that several witnesses and the defendant himself have stated here that afterwards he never remembered a thing cf these matters which he said in his attacks of rage.
Now, if this man had known that he had objected to this Terbevon case with all his courage in front of the Reichsmarshall, then he would be able to answer the severe attacks made by Mr. Denney, because this is very important mitigating evidence. He just could not remember because it happened during an attack of rage.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, do you know that Milch quite often, when such an attack of rage was over, made inquiries of his people, what on earth he had been saying and whom he had been insulting and so on?
A Yes, I remember that. I remember that I had frequent conversations with Gablenz and von der Heyde, his successor, in the afternoons after such meetings, when the three of us went to see the Field Marshal, and when we told him that he'd raged a lot that morning, and that rather severe language had been used, he always used to say right away, that --
Q Go on, please.
A He used to say, "if I insulted you too, let me apologize," and that has always been an indication for us that he didn't even know what he said. Actually he never went against the two of us. That never happened during all that time, but, as to his expressions, he just apparently didn't remember them, or he wouldn't have assumed that he insulted us too, and I must say that these attacks apparently were connected with these two serious flying accidents. I remember that in 1942, that being the first year of our collaboration, Professor Kalk treated him continuously and was always giving him drugs because during these long meetings in smoky and badly-aired rooms he frequently had a sort of veil for his eyes and he told me a few times that he was just short of fainting. He was continuously getting drugs in order to fight these fainting fits. This condition improved at a later stage and only deteriorated again after his car accident at Stalingrad.
Q Witness, do you know that he made an application to Goering after Stalingrad to be relieved because physically he could not stand it any longer?
A Yes. At that time he was in a very bad physical condition. He had received fractures from that accident and he was in the hospital near Stalingrad for a lengthy period and he carried out his activities from there for some time. I know that at the time he urgently requested to be relieved from his offices but this wasn't granted, of course.
Q Witness, was it possible for a general to resign in Germany at all?
A No, it certainly was not, during the war.
Q Witness, is it known to you that there were factories in which a General Field Marshal too could not enter without special papers?
A Every plant, and of course I can only answer for air force factories, could only be entered with a special pass, this special so-called "red pass," which the Field Marshal and I had, entitled us, within such plants, to enter into secret production shops and development workshops. There was a special endorsement on this card the color of which was different from the color of the cards of other people who had permission to enter the factory. These passes had to be shown at all times and I cannot recollect a single case where I succeeded in getting into the plants without such a pass.
Q Can you remember that near Regensburg there was a plant which required yet another special pass - an additional pass?
AAt Regensburg. Do you mean Messerschmitt? Oh, yes, the Messerschmitt Works at Obertraubling. That was what I reported the other day, where this large aircraft was being manufactured, near the Autobahn from Munich to Augsburg and Stuttgart, the air force camp at Leipheim, and it happened actually oh one occasion that an officer who was driving over the Autobahn and who had come to a halt, and was missing at the airport, was shot by a sentry after he had been halted three times. A German officer. Large posters had been erected which were drawing attention to the fact that from this point halting or stopping was not permitted.
Q What about the physical condition of the Field Marshal in Spring 1945?
A. According to the reports which I received through Colonel Petersen, who was often in my office, and District 7 the Field Marshal had a very serious car accident in the Autumn of 1944 and he had been extremely sick in bed and was limping on crutches, as Colonel Petersen told me. He was no longer in active service and was comparatively 2331a badly hurt.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, I have no further questions to this witness.
MR. DENNEY: I may have one or two questions,.Your Honor, not many But may we have a recess so that I can look at the --
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Witness, do you recall my questioning you on 11 March?
A Yes, I do.
Q Do you remember I asked you if you attended a meeting addressed by the defendant which was held in Berlin on 25 March 1944?
A Yes, the one that was addressed to the fleet engineers and quartermasters.
Q Yes. How many people were at that Meeting?
A There might have been about fifty to sixty people. It was in the great hall of the Air Ministry, in the so-called Hermann Goering Hall.
Q And do you remember that I asked you whether he said anything about "there is no international law" at that meeting?
A Yes, I do.
Q And your answer was no?
A That's right.
Q And I asked you whether or not you had heard anything about how many different dialects were spoken by the various employees in the factories?
A Factories? Dialects? You mean languages, don't you?
Q Languages, yes.
A In the flak batteries you mean?
Q No, in the factories, Luftwaffe factories.
A Oh, I see, factories, yes.
Q Do you remember that I asked you this question: "You didn't hear him say anything about how many different dialects were spoken by the various employees of the factory?", and you answered "No?"
A I do not remember this last question. At the time we did not speak about the various languages spoken in the factories.
Q Then I asked you this question: "Nothing in the speech so far as you recall to indicate that there there any foreign workers working for you?"
and you answered, "We, the question of labor and workers was not so important at this conference." Do you remember that?
A Yes, I do. At that meeting the labor question mas not so important because the question was from the various supply points of the Luftwaffe which had been taken care of by the quartermasters of the Luftgaus and by the engineers to get spare parts which already belonged to the troop for use in aircraft production, in order to complete planes that were incompleted at the time.
Q Did he say anything about the hours of work there?
A Yes, he did. We generally worked from eight to nine hours.
Q From eight to nine hours?
A Yes, and during special programs this was increased sometimes, and in the Jaegerstab the number of working hours was increased considerably.
Q But how much did you hear him talk about, so far as working hours were concerned, on that day?
AAt that meeting you mean?
Q Yes, we are still talking about the same meeting.
A Well, I can't remember. I can't recall that the working hours were discussed there.
Q Did you hear him say anything about a special Courts-Martial that he had?
A I did know that he had a Courts-Martial; however, whether that point was discussed during the meeting, I don't know.
Q Well, you have got a pretty good memory for what happened at all these other meetings. Do you recall what happened here?
A Yes; however, I do not remember all those details.
Q Well, let me refresh your recollection. On the first page you said, "We do have in our employ today approximately 60% foreigners and 40% Germans and one has to take into consideration that women work in the factories one half a day. Therefore, the ratio of Germans to foreigners becomes considerably more unfavorable. The ratio is gradually appreaching 90% foreigners with 10% German managers. The rest of the Germans arc concentrated in development of factories and the like."
Do you remember now that he spoke about foreign laborers there?
A Yes, I do. He used this as an introduction in order to represent seriousness of the situation, which was very acute at the time.
Q And then a little later, on page eight: "In brief, the people arrived there and are put to work there. If any doubts exist as to whether a request is justified where the people are not requested by numbers but as electricians, blacksmiths, fitters, turners, as unskilled laborers, as foreigners; then this is settled. If the results show that the request for people is not justified, then, the matter is referred to a commission. This commission examines the facts within 48 hours. If it becomes apparent that dirty dealings are going on, a special Courts-Martial was called into session and handed down a quick decision."
Do you remember when he said that?
A Yes; by that he wanted to express the fact that the unjustified requests by factories... We had those repair shops, which have already been mentioned; and they also had labor requests. And I can only understand it in this connection.
Q. And if people did wrong things, they would show them up before a court?
A. That is right. He said they would be placed before special court if they would request more laborers.
Q. Then if people did do wrong things they were put before courts, weren't they?
A. Yes; however I can not recall that in such cases that the Field Marshal's courts were ever in session. But as I said once before, as far as I can remember, this court only dealt with cases of corruption which occurred in the Luftwaffe, itself, or in connection with the industrialists. Industrialists were also convicted by this court.
Q. Then, still on page eight, he said: "The normal work-week in our industry is 72 hours." Do you recall that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. That is a little more than eight or nine, isn't it?
A. Yes, it is. At this time, already -- that is, since the first of March:
-we had been under the jurisdiction of the Jaegerstab -- the Jaegerstab had increased the working hours.
Q. Then a little later, he said: "Then there is still the human factor. We often had considerable difficulty with the human factor. Fluctuation there is very considerable. The quota of the Luftwaffe and the distribution of manpower was constantly lowered; that foreigners run away, them don't keep a contract; there are difficulties with Frenchmen, Italians, Dutch. The prisoners of war are partly unruly and fresh, people are also supposed to be carrying on sabotage. These elements can not be made more efficient by small means. They are just not handled strictly enough. If the decent foremen would sock one of these unruly people because the fellow doesn't work, then the situation would soon change. International Law cannot be observed here. I have asserted myself very strongly and, with the help of Sauer, I have presented the point of view very strongly that the prisoners with the exception of the English and Americans, should be taken away from the military authorities. The soldiers are not in a position, as experience has shown, to cope with those fellows who know all the answers.
I shall take very strict measures here and shall put such a prisoner of war before my courtsmartial if he has committed sabotage or refused to work. I will have him hanged right in his own factory. I am convinced that that will not be without effect."
Do you recall when he said that?
A. On that date very strong words were used. I do not recall in detail all these expressions. However, it is quite possible that they occur.
Q. And his neck was red and he was mad...and everybody just laughed it off?
A. Yes.
Q. And then, over a little farther, he said, on page twenty-two:"In saying this, I do not even consider the fact that the workshops have first-class personnel, whereas we in the Luftwaffe armament industry have Russian, French prisoners of war, Dutch, and members of 32 other nations. The obtaining of interpreters alone presents a big difficulty there. I would be very grateful if the gentlemen who are concerned with this could carry out something in this field and succeed. Saving can be achieved only if every factory has one type and actually develops this methodically." Didn't strike you at the time that he mentioned that you had 32 nations represented in addition to Russians, French and Dutch?
A. Well, I really can not recall any details, and the expression "thirty-two nations" I can not recall either. I can't remember that it was used, and I don't see how these could come together.
Q. Well, this was the man who was Generalluftzeugmeister, Inspector-General in the Air Force talking to his subordinates...
A. Those were not his subordinates: The Fleet Engineers and the Luftgau Engineers, Quartermasters, were not under his orders. They were under the General Staff.
Q. Did you ever hear Milch give any oral orders to anybody?
A. Oral orders? Yes, they were given all right, of course.
Q. So you didn't write down everything that You did?
A. No. However, most of the things were decided upon in the meetings and conferences and then the completed records were sent to the office concerned.
Q. Well, were any oral orders given in any of these meetings that you attended?
A. Yes. For instance, they submitted a report with reference to this matter.
Q. Then oral orders were given out at these meetings?
A. Yes, but later on they were kept in the records in writing.
Q. Now, in all these cases where oral orders were given, they were always reduced to writing?
A. Yes, that was the custom in the Ministry.
Q. That always happened?
A. Yes.
Q. Nobody ever acted on an oral order so far as you know?
A. No.
Q. What happened to Field Marshal Rommel?
A. I did not know Field Marshal Rommel personally.
Q. Well, was he active at the end of the war?
A. No, I was only present there when he was buried. I was present there as representative of the Reich Marshal.
Q. Was Field Marshal von Leeb active at the end of the war?
A. Von Leeb?
Q. Ritter von Leeb.
A. Ritter von Leeb -- I don't believe that he was active. However, he is still alive.
Q. Yes, he withdrew after the campaign up at the Pripjet Marshes, didn't he?
A. The Field Marshal von Leeb who was in charge of the front at Petersburg?
There were two Ritter von Leeb's.
Q. There's only one Field Marshal von Leeb.
A. Yes, one Field Marshal, that's right.
Q. Then after the campaign up in the Pripjet Marshes, he flew back to Hitler and told him that he wanted to straighten the lines up; that there were 10 divisions cut off up there; and Hitler wouldn't let him do it; and he retired?
A. Yes. I don't know anything at all about this matter.
Q. You recall when Rundstedt became inactive when he was assigned on the Eastern Front?
A. Yes, Rundstedt withdrew five times and was taken back five times.
Q. Yes, but he did withdraw, didn't he?
A. Yes, he did; and he lived down here in Southern Bavaria.
MR. DENNEY: I have no further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, did Mr. von Rundstedt resign on his own or was he ordered to do so by his superior officer, that is Hitler?
A. Hitler made him resign and then took him back.
Q. In other words, he did not resign on his own?
A. No, he could not.
Q. When he had been released from active service, was he a Field Marshal any longer?
A. Yes, he was. I have mentioned before that in the German army it was customary that a Field Marshal always remains active until the end of his life; in other words, until his death.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, with reference to the question of thirtytwo nations, I have just counted the nations in Europe. If we disregard the Russians and the French, then there were the Spaniards, the Portuguese, the Belgians, the Dutch, the Luxembourgers, the Norwegians, the Swedee, the Italians, the Hungarians, the Serbs -- or the Groates or the Yugoslavs -- I'm sorry;