Effective the 1st of February, 1944 I was appointed into the Leader Reserve of the OKH and I was transferred and taken to Wiesbaden, which is my native town, and to wait for further orders for my future command.
At the beginning of April the order reached me there to the effect that I should go back to Rovanjemi in order to take over the leadership of the 19th Mountain Corps at the Ice Sea Fron. On 20th April 1944 I took over the leadership of this particular unit. In September 1944 I was appointed commanding general of the Corps. In this capacity I was in the defensive war against the Russian attack on 7 October 1944 where we only succeeded under heavy sacrifices in saving my unit from being kept in a pincer movement by the Superior Russian forces and I managed to take my corps back to Norway.
Then, until the final capitulation, I hold the same position, being the officer in command of this Corps. Then approximately at the end of November 1944, I was given the tactical leadership after being in charge of operations of the Army Department Narvik which consisted, apart from my own units, also of the 71st Corps.
Q. Witness, within what larger unit did the 19th Corps fight? Outside of the 19th Corps, what was subordinated to the 20th Mountain Corps and who was the Supreme Command or of the 20th Mountain Army?
A. The Supreme Commander in command of the 20th Mountain Army was at first General Dietl and later on General Rondulic and in the end it was the General of the mountain troops Bochme.
Q. Witness, did you know General Rondulic? Did you know him personally?
A General Rondulic I met first, as far as remember, in Finland.
Q Did you know him personally, witness?
A Yes, I know him personally.
Q Can you recognize him in here in court?
A. Yes, yes.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You are overlapping the questions and answers. Space the timing between the question and the answer.
Q Witness, will you please leave a small interval between my questions and your answers?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: And more interval between and tho next question.
MR. RAPP: Very well, your Honor.
Q Witness, can you point out to us the then General Rendulic, now the defendant Rendulic?
A Yes.
Q Where does he sit?
A General Rendulic is sitting here opposite me,
Q In figures -- speaking in figures, where is he sitting from the left?
A He is the sixth.
Q Thank you. Witness, did your army corps under your command take part in the evacuation, or the so-called evacuation of the province of Finmark?
A Yes, my army corps took part in this.
Q Witness, when did you hear for the first time of forced evacuation of Finmark and that such an evacuation was to take place?
A It is not pass ole for me any longer now to give you a date. I am afraid I do not remember. I can only say for certain that various preludes and considerations occurred before the actual Fuehrer order or Army Order came through during the last days of October and arrived at our army corps.
Q Witness, although as you state here, you can't remember any exact date or any tine at all in connection with the Finmurk evacuation, when you did hoar about it, did you take any steps -- that is, before you received the actual Fuehrer order?
A I can roll remember one discussion which I had with General Hoelter but that was a discussion which took place before the Fuehrer order arrived. It must have taken place before the Fuehrer order arrived. This discussion was to the following effect:
"Herr Hoelter, I intend to make an application in writing to the effect that any destruction and evacuation of Finmark should not take place for the following reasons:
"First, my unit which is absolutely exhausted by the various attacks and offensives has something else to do than to deal with evacuations and destruction. We are glad if we can bring our 5,000 rounded into safety to the West and can get supplies of the most necessary things, materials, et cetera. We have no columns in order to transport population.
"Second, I do not believe that the Russians will proceed to the host and will cross the Tana. We are not in touch with them any longer -- with the Russians, that is. We know for certain that the bulk of the Russian units have been transported to the East and, even if the Russians should rant to pursue us, they would be acting differently.
"Third, if we force the population to evacuate and if we burn their houses we therewith create miss givings and ill will amongst the Norwegian population and ombitterment and this ombitterment can be of no practical use to us. We even have to reckon with tho springing in to life of a partisan movement."
When I told this to General Hoelter, he answered: "The A.O.K. is roughey of the same opinion as you but just now the order" -- I do not know exactly what exactly he said it was, a Fuehrer Order or whatever it was -- "has arrived according to which destruction has to be carried out" -- that destruction, that is, and the evacuation -- ''and nothing can be done now. The submission of an application in writing is therefore no longer of any use."
Q Witness, who was General Hoelter?
A General Hoelter was the Chief of the General Staff of the Mountain A.O.K. 20.
Q And as such General Hoelter was subordinate to General Rendulic?
A. He was subordinate to General Rendulic.
Q Witness, the discussion which you had with General Hoelter and the arrival of this so-called Fuehrer order were almost simultaneous, weren't they?
A. So I assume.
Q Did you speak to General Hoelter personally?
A Yes, I spoke to him personally.
Q By telephone?
A Yes, by telephone.
Q Witness, in the last days of October of the year 1944, did you have direct contact with the Russian troops?
A I do not remember the date of the last fighting with the Russians any more but it must have been approximately around the 25th of October when the last fight took place that is in consequence of the Russian pincer movement on the east of the River Tana.
Q At this time, this date, 25 October 1944, was if I understand you correctly after the time at which the Russians as you said transported larger units to the East, is that correct?
A Yes, this transfer of strong Russian units must have taken a long time, because the Russians had opposed to my own corps about four or five corps to ours. That is quite a bit of transport, it took a lot of transportation to transfer then to other parts.
Q Alright, witness, I shall put my question in a different way; was the transport at that time in great part concluded, or was it only just starting?
A It must have been like this, that the persecution of Kirkenes was only carried out by only a few snail Russian units, and they were originally directed against my own corps.
Q Witness, in your own Army Corps, did you have a so-called 1-c officer; was he in contact with the 1-C officer of the Army?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q At this date we are speaking about, now what, if you can remember, what did the 1-C officer tell you about the enemy position for the enemy intentions, I should say, referring to the mass pursuit of the 20th German Army?
A I probably misjudged the enemy position at this particular point. In the vicinity of Kirkenes there were only about three corps left, or at least we could only establish the existence of three enemy corps. In the direction of Neiden there were even less enemy troops, and beyond Neiden there advanced only very weak Russian forces which went to the West. Contact with the enemy had been lost none or less. Without doubt the enemy left its strong forces either around Potsamo, or he had already transferred them to the south. During the last days of October, in any case, there was no indication whatsoever that the Russians should keep on pursuing us across the Tana River to the West, or that he intended to do so. An absolute guarantee for this, of course, we did not have, because as I already mentioned before the Russians just as at the time when they crossed the Finnish-Norwegian border, also in this case he could stop for sometime at the Tana River in order to wait for the result of some political negotiations with the exiled Norwegian Government.
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, just a minute. I do not in anyway wish to direct the prosecution in its questioning, but personally I would be interested in knowing if the prosecutor wishes to present the matter at this time, where this particular river is.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, I have just that in mind and have been trying to make arrangements to have one of the representatives of the Norwegian. Government to point these places out for us.
THE PRESIDENT: Maybe the witness could do it. However, that is a matter for you to decide.
UNKNOWN GENTLEMAN: (Indicating on map with rule) This is the Tana River and the Tana fiord.
MR. RAPP: Would you be so kind as to stay there?
THE PRESIDENT: You are now having a person testify who has not been sworn or called as a witness. The witness can do so or can try to do so. He should be able to.
MR. RAPP: I am merely trying to do this for the convenience of the Tribunal. If you wish I can have the witness stand and show it to us.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the proper way to do it, rather than having two witnesses on the stand at one time. It should be suggested that he (the witness) speak into the microphone.
Q Will you please show us the Tana River?
A The Tana River is this border river which flows into the Tana fiord. It is a large river, and this is the road by which we rotreated. (indicating) And beyond the Tana River, to the west the Russians did not advance.
Q Witness, up to now you spoke of so-called assumptions which at that time you had about the intentions of the Russians; did these assumptions actually come true, that is did the Russians actually advance to the west along this line?
AApart from a few reconnaissance troops the Russians did not actually advance to the west.
C, And when, or at what state, witness, did this take place, and how did it become more and more evident?
A It is very difficult to give a date, because everyday showed more and more that the Russians were for the time being not advancing with stronger forces.
Q Witness, if I understand you correct, that did not become evident until April 1944, when I speak of dates I mean not only just a particular day, but I mean months?
A It was absolutely clear that as far as one could speak of the future at that time the Russians did not intend to advance, unless they intended to start an offensive in the north.
Q From when on did that become evident, witness?
A I could say that from the middle of November it became suite evident that this particular phase of activities had come to an end, and if the Russians intended to advance again that this would be a new campaign, as it was. A date, of course, would be merely arbitrary.
Q Witness, did you. receive this order by the 20th Army about the evacuation of Finnmark?
A Yes, I received it.
Q In writing?
AAs far as I remember, in teletype.
Q On the basis of this order within your unit did the compulsory evacuation begin immediately?
A Yes, it had to begin, because we were in a hurry.
Q Witness, how long did this compulsory evacuation take?
A I am not in a position to make any binding statements about this point as it did not concern me until the beginning of November, and later the compulsory evacuation was supervised by a staff which exclusively been appointed for this purpose.
Q Then give us the date, at what date or approximately what date did you know about this, directly or personally?
A We had to deal with evacuation measures approximately as from November 1 until at the most the 10 or 15 of November, because when I changed my fighting position later from the Tana River to the west I arrived at villages as a rule which had already been completely or partly evacuated.
Q. Witness, were these villages absolutely destroyed?
A. No. When I arrived at these villages, they were not destroyed* Nothing had been destroyed, because our whole unit was actually housed and stationed in these villages. We had to find accommodations, because it was winter and we were near the Ice Sea.
Q. Witness, was the 230th Division within your corps? Was it a unit of your corps?
A. The 230th Division was in my area, but when they came under my command I do not remember anymore in detail.
Q. The evacuation staff which you have just mentioned, which was formed later on, and the main task of which was to supervise the evacuation and carry it out -- now where did this staff receive its troops and men?
A. I should prefer not to say anything about this date, because I had no personal contact with the staff. I had no contact at all, no immediate contact, with them. I never met the staff; therefore I would not like to make just any old statement about something which I do not know for certain.
Q. In other words, witness, the troops of the XIX Corps, which you were in charge of, were never put at the disposal of the staff for evacuation purposes?
A. As far as I know now, and furthermore I don't believe they had any troops. They must have had only columns. It is possible they had columns. It is possible, however, that my quartermaster might have put a column at the disposal of the evacuation staff.
Q. What do you mean, column?
A. Motorized column. If you mean units of any size, regiments, etc., no, that is absolutely out of the question.
Q. Witness, you say you arrived at villages which had been evacuated but which had not been destroyed. Were there any people left in these villages?
A. I have already said that most of the villages were absolutely empty, but on occasions I saw one or two civilians who were packing something.
I saw people with a cow, and similar things, but those were individual cases. Practically, these villages and little towns were evacuated.
Q. And during your service in Finnmark, after the order had been given for the evacuation of Finnmark, you saw no burned villages?
A. No, I saw no burned villages, of course with the exception of Kirkenes, and of course there were villages that had been destroyed during battle.
Q. Did you actually see burning villages, not burned but still burning?
A. I only saw Kirkenes burning on several occasions, in fact, First burned actually by the Russians, and later on through battles, and also through Russian bomber attacks again, and then I saw the barracks which we had built in the vicinity of Kirkenes when we went through.
Q. Witness, did you ever see dead cattle? I mean large amounts, as from a dozen upward.
A. I never saw a dead horse or a dead cow lying about.
Q. Now, witness, let me put it in another way. You said that you called -- that you telephoned General Hoelter, and you gave him three reasons against the evacuation - I mean to say that you objected. Do you want to say by that, witness, that after the matter had been issued in the form of an order that you were not of the same opinion any longer, that you changed your attitude?
A. The destruction and evacuation also - this is what I say today and I said it before - was for me a highly unpleasant and awkward matter, but on the basis of this order, and because I could not guarantee for certain that the Russians would not follow us, I carried out this order.
Q. But you said, witness, that actually the Russians did not follow?
A. Yes, that is what I said.
Q. Witness, as commander or commanding general of the 19th Mountaineer Group, did you ever receive daily reports or other reports from the Army which dealt with the development of the whole tactical situation in Finnmark and in Norway generally?
A. Do you mean with regard to the situation of the enemy or do you mean with regard to the degree of destruction?
Q. No, I mean the actual degree of destruction, witness. After all, the mountain corps which you were in command of then -- did they not have to rely on certain tactical information of the Army?
A. Yes.
Q. The destruction of a country and its evacuation -- are these not tactical matters?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever receive any information on that in connection with a tactical matter?
A. I don't think so, because only at the beginning I and my army corps had to deal with the destruction and evacuation. Later on I took over the leadership of the bulk of the troops. I was in charge of the bulk of the troops of the 20th Mountain Army, which I had to lead back to the new positions, and at a comparatively early date I, with my staff, proceeded into this position.
Q. Witness, I understand that from your former statement. The only thing I wanted to ask you was whether you, as the leader of the bulk of the Army, which after all consisted of a number of troops, whether therefore it was not necessary for you to be tactically informed about other matters which happened in this country?
A. I can only say I was not informed about the destruction tasks, because these orders were sent to the chief of the rear forces and at that time that was the commanding general of the XXXVI Corps.
Q. I did not ask you about destruction tasks. I asked you about destruction that had actually been carried out. Witness, was the comulsory evacuation and destruction of Finnmark a military necessity?
A. Yes, it was, if you expected the Russians to proceed to the west. Apart from that I do not see even today how supplies for the population which was left "behind in north Finnmark could have been procured after all military objects, bridges, roads, and so forth which had to be counted as such would have been destroyed.
In this case about 30,000 people would have been living in a kind of "no man's land", of which perhaps a part, that is those who dealt-
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The Tribunal wishes to inquire whether there is any likelihood of completing the testimony of this witness before half-past four?
MR. RAPP: Yes, there is, Your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Will there be cross examination of the witness?
MR. RAPP: I have only one or two other questions, Your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Will there be some extensive cross examination?
DR. FRITSCH: I do not think that I could finish with the cross examination today, Your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The Tribunal has no desire to hurry you in your cross examination, so with that information at hand it is the feeling of the Tribunal that we will now adjourn to Courtroom No. 1 for the continuation of such phases of the operations as indicated by Mr. Denney.
The Tribunal will adjourn to Tribunal No. 1, to the room, Tribunal No. 1
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will be seated.
Military Tribunal 5 is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
MR. DENNEY: May it please Your Honors, the first film which is being shown will last approximately twenty minutes, and it is a film having to do with the picture in Greece, and is part of the reports of the Office of War Crimes of Greece. It is offered as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 509.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
MR. DENNEY: May it please Your Honors, the captions are in Greek, so they will be translated into both English and German.
(A film entitled "From the Tragedy of our Country" was shown.)
"From the Tragedy of our Country.
"In order that we may have a picture of the tragedy of our country during the period of the occupation, I decided in spite of the difficulties and the risks involved to take a film, which though historically accurate is artistically inferior due to the conditions under which it was made.
"It may be noted that taking even a simple picture of military units is punishable by death.
"Athens, April 27, 1941, Angelos Papanastasiou, Municipal Councillor of Athens.
"On 6 April 1941 Germany, for the sake of saving the defeated Italian Army on the Albanian front, attacked us from behind. Our heroic army, faced with the overwhelming numerical superiority of the Germans, was forced to withdraw and on 27 April 1941 the German troops entered Athens.
"On 27 April 1941 the German swastika is hoisted on the sacred Rock of the Acropolis and on 6 May 1941 the Italian flag.
"Central buildings of the city are seized by the German and Italian military authorities. Many enterprises are forced to close. Whole blocks of flats, including all furniture, are requisitioned in one day in order to billet the army.
"Very few street cars are operating on the lines of Patissia, Ambelokipi, and Callithea - they operate until 7:30 p.m.
"General requisitioning of motor cars, motorcycles, bicycles, etc. disturbs the entire communication system.
"For hours they await the daily distribution of three ounces of bread.
"Continuous undernourishment results in exhaustion of human organisms and leads to skeletonization.
"In Athens alone more than 500 persons die daily from starvation during the winter 1941. They are buried in mass graves which are dug on the previous day. Each cross represents more than 500 victims; the corpses are laid in graves in layers.
"Greek patriots are shot ever day. A firing squad on bicycles.
"Growing indignation of the people compels the occupying forces to take security measures.
"On 25 June 1943 the Greek people protest against the executions by staging a general strike and demonstrations in the streets.
"A huge demonstration with placards bearing the inscription 'Liberty or Death' advances in the streets. The streets are littered with pamphlets. The demonstrators advance despite German and Italian shooting.
"Some of the victims.
"Shops are locked with dozens of heavy padlocks, because thieving Italian soldiers, taking advantage of the strict enforcement curfew at 10 p.m., are ransacking them.
"German brutality is turned against innocent and irresponsible victims, whom they hang by the dozens.
"Victims of German bestiality are brought to the morgue of Athens daily.
"Executions continue. On 3 September 1944, 73 of the detainees are executed by the Germans and are buried in the 3rd Cemetery.
"The Germans, although they had decided to evacuate Athens, staged the morbid farce of executing 73 to whom they had issued prison release notices on the preceding day.
"They were the last victims of German ferocity in Athens.
"Athens, 16 October 1944, Angelos Papanastasiou."
MR. RAPP: Your Honors, the next picture is offered as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 510. It is a film published under the supervision of the Attorney General's Office, and it was sent to us from the Commission for the Restoration of Devastated Areas in Finnmark.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: We trust that it will be presented with a little more continuity than the one which has just been completed.
MR. RAPP: I hope so too, Your Honor.
(A film entitled "Finnmark", a Norwegian film with English captions, was shown.)
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Is there any further matter to come before the Tribunal at this time?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, we would appreciate it if we could, after the films have been shown and rewound, withdraw them end return them to the delegation from which they came.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: There is no objection.
MR. DENNEY: Thank you, Your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: If there is nothing further to present at this time, the Tribunal will adjourn until Monday morning, August 25th.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 0930, Monday morning, August 25th, 1947.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 35 August 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Wilhelm List, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on August 25, 1947, 0950-1630, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you will ascertain whether all defendants are present in the courtroom.
MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all defendants are present in the Courtroom.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: You may proceed with the further examination of this witness.
FERDINAND JODL - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
MR. RAPP: Your Honors, I believe on Friday last prior to going to the moving picture, I submitted a document for identification only, being the script of the Norwegian picture, and I believe we identified it as 509A. I had distributed that document already to defense counsel and your Honors, and meanwhile the 24-hour rule has elapsed, so we would like to now submit this particular document in evidence, and it is called Norway Document No. 13-B. That is stencilled on the document - Norway 13-B, is to be submitted as Exhibit 509.
In the examination of this particular witness, I believe we stopped when the witness was testifying as to whether or not the evacuation of Finnmark amounted at that time to a military necessity or not, and with your Honors' permission, I would like to take up from there.
Witness, before we left to recess Friday, I asked you, in connection with the evacuation of Norway, whether this evacuation was a military necessity. Do you remember that question? Would you please repeat once more for the benefit of all of us here, what you said at that time?
A: On Friday I explained that the evacuation and destruction of the territories of North Finnmark would have been considered a military necessity for those who had to expect the possibility of a Russian invasion of the territory beyond the Tarna. Only if the Russians had concentrated larger formations in those territories, -- only if a concentration of Russian forces in that territory in Finnmark would have been possible in the winter time, then would it have been possible for the German forces to create a defense position at the Lyngenfjord.
I also stated, with regard to this question of evacuation, that then as well as today, I did not understand how the population of the North Finnmark could have been fed, if all bridges and other military installations had been destroyed, but if we had left the population in this no man's land, I stated that a part of the population, -- and that is that part of the population which carries on agriculture would have been able to live through the winter on their products, but the great bulk of the population was depending on imports of food, and these imports could not have been secured.
Q: Witness, in connection with this statement, I would like to ask you two or three short questions. First of all when did you first become aware, -- because of the 1c report, and because of other things upon which you could draw, -that the Russian forces would not go beyond the river Riva? (Tana?)
A: If one can state a date at all, I think it would have been right to say that I first understood this rightly in November. It was then becoming clear that the Russian forces would probably not follow us.
Q: Do you mean then that with everyday, every month, every week which went by, it became more clear to you that this was the case?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: The next question is what did you tell the Norwegian population as the reason for the fact that this forcible evacuation was undertaken in this respect, I do not mean from a military viewpoint, but with regard to all other announcements and notices which you saw; what was the Norwegian population told?
A: I think the most essential part was the contents of the well known announcement, -- public announcement, which was signed by the Reich Commissar at Terboven, and the then General Rendulic. I think in that note probably everything was contained which the population was told.
Q: Witness, do you remember whether in this leaflet, the only thing which was said was with regard to the danger of the Bolshevik movement to the Norwegian population?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember, witness, whether this leaflet said anything about the fact that the Norwegian population was eminently in danger of starvation because of the destruction of the military installations which had made it impossible to bring in further food?
A: Well, that I cannot say. I do no remember any details.