Q General, didn't you say yourself before, that the last fight took place in the beginning of November around the region of Kirkenes?
A No, I never said that.
Q Witness; in answering a question during direct examination, -you spoke of the cruel evacuation, and you specified in your statement, -you mentioned a case, if I remember correctly, it was a matter of the village of Berlevaag; is that correct?
A That's right.
Q Did you investigate this case yourself?
A I did investigate it by witnesses, but I was never there myself, of course, and this person who gave me the report has signed his report.
Q You also said that cattle was burned in stables. Did you yourself see any of these things?
A I have never been in the places which were evacuated by the Germans, but I have seen cattle burned in the stables.
Q And this happened, according to your convictions, not as a result of the usual military actions?
A Yes. This was at a place where there was no action at all. It was at a place called Lakselv.
Q General, you also said that churches and historical buildings were burned down. Could you give me any towns where this happened?
A Yes, I can mention a place called Altagaan, which is the old residence of the County, -- 'well the" ", as we say in Norwegian, built in 1740, and. which was . It was a building which could not be -- I cannot find the word in English, but it is a building which has a historical value and which was not to be changed in any way or used for any other purpose than a certain one.
There is also another building to the south, at the place called Hamnes, which I could also mention, and at the latter place the Germans had themselves known that this was an historic building.
Q Was this building situated inside a village?
A It was not situated in, -- well not particularly in a village. It was now the building where the commanding officer of the Western Finmark was living; that means on a training ground, and it was far from other buildings.
Q Could it have served to house troops?
A Yes, it could house troops.
Q General, -- of what building material do the houses in Finmark usually consist?
A They mostly consist of wood.
Q If some of these houses serving as shelter would be burned, then there would hardly remain a building which one would want to save; that is a church or similar building; then there would hardly remain any building unharmed? Is that correct?
A Well if the village was put on fire, and it was a suitable wind, I think the whole village would bum down.
Q General, then you said that you had received various reports according to which Norwegians had escaped evacuation. Did you also get reports from those who had been evacuated?
A Yes, and that is a point.
As we had re-occupied part of Finmark, a lot of people from the occupied area came to Finmark and they got there because they wanted to assist the population in Finmark with food, clothing and boats, and all of these people who came in from outside of the re-occupied territory, had to report to my staff, so I knew everything they told me about the evacuation.
Q You then said that the people to be evacuated had to pass through mined waters on boats. Is that correct?
A Yes, that is one way of evacuating people.
Q Do you know, General, that these boats were almost exclusively manned by German soldiers?
A I don't know that.
DR. FRITSCH: I have no further questions, your Honor.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Are there any further questions by other counsel? .....No response......
Is there any redirect?
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY.
..............MR. RAPP: A very short one, your Honor. General, the element of military necessity was raised during the cross-examination, and I would like to ask you if as you stated, it was remote or nonexistent. What other reasons were there for destroying this territory presuming that it was not military necessity?
A I did not quite catch that.
Q I said, assuming that the destruction was not military necessity, what other reasons are given for the destruction?
A Well, we by-and-by saw acts of Germans towards the population which seemed to us to indicate a certain mood of revenge, and one of these raiding parties coming back actually killed six fishermen, and amongst them two boys, and then after that, the German commander went to a small hut which had been erected after the destruction, where a woman lived with her small children, and he asked this woman her name, and then ho told her he had killed her husband and her son, and then ho raped her in the presence of her children.
After that exploit, a poster was put on the bodies, and I may be allowed to read that because it is rather significant, I think, I have translated it into English, but it was written in Norwegian, and the contents were this:
"Norwegian Men and Women!
"Point I: We fight and work for you and for a future European state.
"Point II : We do not give away chocolate and tobacco as a bait, but we have shown a friendly attitude toward you during five years of our stay here.
"Point III: We protect your homes against Bolshevik blood terror.
"Point IV: We protect your homes from capitalistic plundering.
"Point V: We grant you fishing grounds for your own personal use.
"Point 6: We get you work and bread.
"The one who opposes us, the one who supports the anti-European powers with English, America, and Soviet Russia as leaders, the one who openly or secretly places himself against us in this for Europe so difficult time, the one who fleeing in fishing boats or escaping across the border opposes our arms, the one who openly or secretly assists the enemy on this or on the other side of the front, he is a traitor to Europe and to his Norwegian homeland, and he will be found and destroyed regardless of where he is hiding."
That is one example, sir. I have another one, which also speaks for itself, I think, and that is the following: After the 8th of May, after the capitulation, the Norwegian authorities sent out expeditions to the devastated areas to find out the conditions and make a report. There were still then German troops in those territories which were otherwise evacuated. At one place a poster was found, which I have brought with me, and which has the following in printing: "As long as there is an enemy within our borders, may hate be my duty and revenge my virtue." And this is distributed by the 6th German Mountain Division, and it has a stamp date on it, 15 February, which probably is the date when the receiving unit received it from this division. When, therefore, the prosecutor asked me this question, we all had a feeling that there was -- they tried to revenge themselves, which was the origin of these acts in Finnmark.
Q. General, in your talks with the Norwegian population or with men under your command, was it ever mentioned to you directly or by insinuation that the population was very glad that the Germans are helping the Norwegians to escape Bolshevism?
A. No, never. That was never said to me. On the contrary, the population in Finnmark was very much upset and used the strongest words of the language to express their feelings towards the German troops. I will add, though, that of course there are some people in Norway belonging to the Nazi Party that have a different opinion.
MR. RAPP: That's all the questions I have, Your Honor.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I have just two more questions, resulting from the re-direct examination.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. General, you spoke of the shooting of a fisherman and two boys. How do you know that?
A. I had a military patrol out which saw the thing. Besides, I had a report from an intelligence officer, a very complete report taken on the spot.
Q. When was this incident supposed to have taken place?
A. That incident took place on the 6th of May 1945.
Q. On the 6th of May 1945? Where?
A. Where? That was at a place called Hopeidet.
Q. And where is this place?
A. This place is between the town of Tana fjord and Lakse fjord. It's rather far east.
Q. On the 6th of May 1945 were there still German troops there at that time?
A. Yes. They came, as I have told before -- they came continually back with raiding parties along the coast, and also they came inland after having landed.
Q. But at that time you, General, had already your brigade with you and you already had pushed on towards the west.
A. That's right.
Q. How did these German troops come to move in back of you?
A. It's very easy to explain. As I told before, Finnmark is a country of 48,000 square kilometers, and I don't think that 3,000 men would be able to cover that.
Q. Witness, one final question. From where does this piece of paper come which you have read before? Did you yourself receive it or did you take it from a house, or what?
A. This paper I have here in court was taken by one of those Norwegian expeditions being sent out immediately after the capitulation, and found on one of the houses at a place called Birtavarie, and it was taken with the expedition to the 6th Division Command, of which I am the commander.
Q. You yourself never found such a paper, did you?
A. No, everywhere I came everything was burned.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps -- anything further for this witness?
MR. RAPP: We have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: May the witness be discharged then? Any objection on the part of any defense counsel to the discharge of this witness? The counsel for Rendulic? There being indication that there's no further desire on the behalf of the defense counsel for the retention of this witness, you may be excused, General.
Did you have any other matters this afternoon, Mr. Rapp?
MR. RAPP: I have nothing further this afternoon, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You had some papers-
MR. RAPP: We could have that postponed until tomorrow if Your Honors desire.
THE PRESIDENT: We have about five minutes before adjournment. We'll adjourn at this time until tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Court adjourned at 1625 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Welhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on 26 August 1947, 0930, Justice Justice Edward F. Carter presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America, and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal, you will ascertain as to whether or not all defendants are present in the Courtroom.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all defendants are present in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Edward F, Carter will preside at this day's session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed.
MR. DENNEY: May it please your Honors, there are a, few matters we would like to clear up about exhibits, identifying documents, etc. that we have let go a little too long, so perhaps this would be a good time to do it and in addition counsel for the defendant Rendulic has had something come up in the case which is pending before Military Tribunal II and will be over there for 30 minutes or so and then will return.
I think that the matters that are here will take up the Court's time until he gets back if that is agreeable with the Tribunal. This which has just been handed to your Honors, and defense counsel, Secretary General, the interpreters and the reporters is to be marked 480-A. It is to be inserted at the end of Document Book XX and given pages numbered 146 and 147. I am sorry, your Honor, I don't have the German page number but Dr. Laternser advises me that it will be satisfactory if we indicate that it should be inserted at the end of German Document Book XX.
This document which has just been given to your Honors and defense counsel, the Secretary General, the interpreters and the translators should be marked 498-A. It should be given pages numbered 140 and 141, and is to be inserted at the close of Document Book XXI. I do not have the German pages but it should be inserted at the close of German Document Book XXI.
Both 480-A and 498-A are offered for identification only, as has been the practice with reference to the prior similar exhibits, one of which has been offered for each book.
May it please your Honors, the Question of the signatures of the defendants which appear on the various curriculum vita affidavits which have been submitted to the Tribunal has been discussed with all of their defense counsel and they are agreeable to a concession that the various documents--that is, I shall list them momentarily--have been signed by their clients.
Counsel for the defendant List with reference to Exhibit 2 which is in Book I, the signature appearing at page 3; counsel for the defendant Foertsch with reference to Exhibit 11 which is in Book I, the signature appearing at page 42; counsel for the defendant Kuntze, Exhibit 132 which is in Book VI, the signature appearing at page 4; counsel for the defendant Geitner, Exhibit 216 which is in Book IX, the signature appearing at page 3; counsel for the defendant Weichs, Exhibit 311 which is in Book XIII, the signature appearing at page 5; counsel for the defendant Rendulic, Exhibit 313 which is in Book XIII, the signature appearing at page 13; counsel for the defendant Dehner, Exhibit 315 which is in Book XIII, the signature appearing at page 21; counsel for the defendant Leyser, Exhibit 324 which is in Book XIV, the signature appearing at page 56; counsel for the defendant Speidel, Exhibit 409 which is in Book SVII, the signature appearing at page 3; counsel for the defendant Felmy, Exhibit 442, which is in Book XIX, the signature appearing at page 3; counsel for the defendant Lanz, Exhibit 443, which is in Book XIX, the signature appearing at page 8; and may it please Your Honors, the only concession that is made is that those are the signatures of the individuals in question.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I assume that defense counsel have heard the recitation of the stipulation made between prosecution and defense counsel. Are there any objections to it as it has been stated in the record? If not, the Court will accept it as a stipulation between prosecution and counsel for the defense.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, I have given my consent as regards my clients that these are their signatures. The reasons were the following: in order to obviate any necessity for getting witnesses from abroad. But I want to expressly move, first of all, that Exhibit NOKW-860, Exhibit 2 is cancelled. This Exhibit is an af fidavit of tho defendant Field Marshal List.
My reasons for asking for cancellation are as follows, quite briefly.
The prosecution cannot ask for a defendant to appear as a witness. If it submits an affidavit of a defendant, it really calls him as a witness because it uses his statement as evidence. Legally, the prosecution is not in a position to do this. For that reason, I object to the use of this affidavit Exhibit No. 2 on the part of the prosecution and move for the reason I have given now that this affidavit, be cancelled.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I am inclined to think that counsel is in error as to the rule that he cites. If a defendant elects to sign a statement, I think his statement is admissible and tho rule does not apply that ho is called to testify against himself. If there are any admissions against interests, they are proper to be offered against him. I think, therefore, the motion will have to be overruled.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, we would like to withdraw the certificate which is 525-A for identification, which was offered yesterday and the certificate will be resubmitted with the Exhibit Norway-9.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may of course withdraw any Exhibit for identification if you care to.
MR. DENNEY: Thank you, Your Honor, and then we would request that this certificate which has nothing to do with the Norway case be marked 525, the one which has just been handed to your Honors. All of defense counsel are familiar with this, and I think that all we will have to do is just road the first two pages and we can omit the executive orders of the President of 2 May 1945, 16 January 1946, the memorandum of 29 March 1946, of Mr. Justice Jackson--excuse me, Robert H. Jackson, Chief of Counsel, General Order No. 301 of 24 October 1946 signed by Major General Huebner, Chief of Staff, and the copy of the appointment of General Taylor dated 24 October 1946 under tho authority of General McNarney, tho then Commanding General in tho American Zone in Europe.
If that is agreeable with lour Honors, then, I will jut read tho first page, the first two pages rather, because there is a recital in tho first document with reference to those that follow.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may, of course, read any part of it you see fit to road.
This certificate is made for the purpose of showing the authority of certain of the personnel of the Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes to administer oaths and properly to attest those affidavits which will be offered in evidence before the Military Tribunal for Case 7 in the United States v. Wilhelm List et al.
Pursuant to Executive Order 9547, 2 May 1945, attached her to as "Tab A", Executive Order 9679, 16 January 1946, attached hereto as "Tab B". Memorandum No. 15 of Office of Chief of Counsel, 29 March 1946, attached hereto as "Tab C", General Order No. 301 of the Military Governor, 24 October 1946, attached hereto as "Tab D", and letter, USFET, 24 October 1946,: Appointment of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, attached hereto as "Tab E", I am authorized, and have been since 29 March 1946, to prepare and prosecute charges of atrocities and war crimes against leaders of the European Axis powers and their accessories.
In discharge of the responsibilities conferred on me by the abovementioned orders and instructions, I have authorized and detailed members of my staff who are engaged with me in the preparation and prosecution of cases, including attorneys, interrogators, and other investigators and agents of the Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, to conduct interrogations and investigations and in the course of such interrogations and investigations to administer oaths.
Among those whom I have authorized to conduct interrogations and investigations and to administer oaths, with the effective date of their authorization, are the following personnel of Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes:
FRED KAUFMANN, U.S. Civilian, AGO Identification No. A-441649 Chief, Interrogation Branch, Evidence Division, Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, authorized 9 July 1946.
OTTO KREILSHEIM, U.S. Civilian, AGO Identification No. A-445900, Interrogator, Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, authorized 4 October 1946.
WALTER E. RAPP, U.S. Civilian, AGO Identification No. D-416367, Director, Evidence Division, Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, authorized 26 May 1946.
HENRY SACHS, U.S. Civilian, AGO Identification No. A-441698, Research Analyst, Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, authorized 15 July 1946.
(signed) TELFORD TAYLOR, 22 August 1947 Brigadier General, US, Army Chief of Counsel for War Crimes
MR. DENNEY: At tho time the Greek film was shown tho certificate from Dr. Dimitsas was not available, and I now have the certificate and hand it to the Secretary General.
Dr. Fritsch has now returned from the Pohl case, and that concludes tho matters which we had with reference to miscellaneous matters, and Mr. Rapp will now continue with tho presentation of the evidence involving the Norwegian case.
MR. RAPP: If Your Honors will recall, yesterday, in connection with Document Book 23 there was some question as to the Jurat of some of tho documents which were marked for identification only. We are now submitting the necessary certifications, and as I shall come to each document I shall at that time make some comments which may be necessary. Norway No. 1, --- Norway No. I which has been marked Exhibit 511-A for identification, we will not present at this time. We just leave it as 511-A, and we will not further present it at this time.
Norway II, which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 512-A, and Norway V, which has been marked 516-A, and Norway XI, which has been marked as Exhibit 520-A, and Norway XII, which has been marked Exhibit 521-A,-I have given defense counsel a certificate pertaining to these documents. I promised this particular certificate to defense counsel last night. I didn't got it off of the mimeograph machine until about 12:30 this morning. I couldn't find defense counsel at that time any more, so I gave it to him at tho first opportunity this morning, and in view of the fact that we could not got together last night defense counsel informed mo this morning that ho would have to have until noon today before I can put in those documents which arc covered in connection with this certificate.
So I am now passing out to the ether defense counsels merely in order to keep their document book, up, although they have no connection with the Norwegian case, copies of this certificate, and after the noon recess I shall come back to this certificate and read the documents pertaining thereto into the record.
This particular document which I am having reference to now should be marked Exhibit 515-A, until such time as we present it as a document after the noon recess, so we mark it now for identification as Exhibit 515-A. This, Your Honors, is to be marked 515-A for identification.
I shall now pass out copies in English to the Honorable Tribunal, to the Assistant Secretary General, to the interpreters, the translators, and copies in German to the defense counsel and also copies to the court reporters.
If your Honors turn now, please, to page 17 of the English document book, and page 19 of the German document book, as your Honors will notice this particular document is offered in excerpt only. The original document appears in Norwegian. We have only translated the excerpt part into the English and the German language. I have meanwhile informed defense counsel that before the day is over I ill also furnish to him that part which is not being offered in evidence by the prosecution in tho German language, so that ho may avail himself of such translation if he wishes to do so, and defense counsel told me that was agreeable to him.
Defense counsel calls to my attention that the previous certificate which I have submitted to your Honors for identification, marked 515-A, docs not cover Norway document 5, which I had just reference to.
That of course, is correct and I was merely referring to one part, and this previous certificate, which, of course, has no bearing on that what I have just told the Court. As far as this document Norway 5 is concerned, which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 516-A, I should like now to submit this document to your Honors as Prosecution Exhibit 516, with the understanding that I will furnish defense counsel tonight that part which was not offered by us in evidence, but for his information.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honors, I object to the submission of Norway 5 as an exhibit, for the same reasons which were discussed yesterday in reference to these documents. This is a report of the town engineer of Hammerfest, which in no wry moots the demands made by the rules of procedure regarding evidence. This is likewise not a document which has its origin in the investigations of a Government commission. Rather, it is a personal report of a private individual.
MR. RAPP: Your Honors, I was just about to hand to defense counsel the Jurat of this particular document we are submitting into evidence, and it is perfectly obvious that the document is all that that defense counsel says it is not, and I am just about ready to hand that to defense counsel. It was marked yesterday for identification as Document 516-A, and we arc submitting it now as document. The certificate that was in there yesterday was not withdrawn. It was still marked for identification, and we are putting it back as suck today, and I was just about to pass out to defense counsel and the court copies of the jurat. This particular document, Your Honor, of course, bears no particular document number, since it is in the original folder marked at present as Exhibit 516-A.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I don't want to protest against not keeping to the time limit of 24 -hours in this case, but I would like to ask mr. Rapp to use the same procedure as regards this document as in the other cases, and to discuss these matters in a final manner this afternoon. I have just only come into the possession of this Jurat, as your Honors have seen.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, I appreciate defense counsel's concession on this particular instance. However, I believe there is a little difference on the other document. We had withdrawn the identification, and we were re-submitting it, and I had promised him to do that last night and I was unable to comply. This particular jurat has never been withdrawn, in other words, the document remains for identification with the Secretary General.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, at any rate this is a supplement which to document 516-A submitted yesterday. This supplement has only boon submitted just now, and I believe it is only fair if in this case, the same procedure is adopted as with the other document.
JUDGE CARTER: The questions involved in this certificate seem to be similar to those in the other certificates. We think the position of counsel well taken, and it should at least go over until the afternoon recess.
MR. RAPP: Very well, Your Honor, The next document I am having reference to is Norway IX, which Your Honors will find on page 33. It is on page 36 of the German defense counsels' book. Norway IX was marked as 518-A -- 518-A, and in compliance with the desires of defense counsel I am now merely passing out the jurat and we shall return to it after the noon recess.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I would not object if in the case of this document we would already discuss the entire objection to this document. I don't believe that the confirmation of the signature of this document is very essential. This is an indictment originating in Norway. However, indictments in my view cannot be admitted as evidence. For this reason alone I believe this exhibit can not be admitted, and I am therefore taking care to object already at this juncture against its admission.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, we submit that this particular document Norway IX is an official report of the representative of the Norwegian government to the United Nations War Crimes Commission in London, and was prepared during the war, and concluded toward the end of the War. We are submitting it under the rules of Ordnance No. VII, as an official Government report, and the Tribunal in admitting this particular piece of evidence is, of course, at their own discretion if they decide to give it any weight or how much of it they want to allocate to it, but I believe that it is in the nature of an official government report which was submitted to the United Nations War Crimes Commission.
DP. FRITSCH: Your Honor, may I point out that this document is super-scribed "Accusations", and thus it outwardly conform with the form of an indictment.
JUDGE CARTER: It is the opinion of the Tribunal that it is properly admissible in evidence. The fact it might contain such statements will not prevent it from being used. However, we are in agreement, no doubt, that the accusations don't have very much probative value before this Tribunal. I think probably if it is established that it is a document of the War Crimes Commission of the Norwegian Government that it will have to be admitted for what it is worth.
I think on that issue we will have to overrule the objection.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, may I reserve stating my point of view until the time after the expiration of the limit for the document submitted today.
MR. RAPP: If the Court pleases, I should like to request the Marshal be requested to summon the witness Trygve Schance, S-c-h-a-n-c-e. Trygve, T-r-y-g-v-e, is his first name: Trygve Schance.
JUDGE CARTER: The Marshal is instructed to summon the witness.
Does the witness speak English?
MR. RAPP: The witness does not speak English, Your Honor.
JUDGE CARTER: The witness will be sworn.
I solemnly swear that the testimony I will give in the case on trial will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE CARTER: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. RAPP:
Q What is your full name, witness?
A Trygve Schance. That is, T-r-y-g-v-e S-c-h-a-n-c-e.
MR. RAPP: May I inquire from the interpreter how it is intending to conduct this interpretation. In other words, are you going from Norwegian into the German or from Norwegian into the English, or viceversa.
INTERPRETER SCHAPF: I don't care, whichever way you prefer it. I can talk either English or German.
MR. RAPP: All right. I suggest I examine the witness in the German language, and you answer and translate in the German language, and the interpreters then can put it into English. I believe that will be more convenient all the way around.
Q When were you born, witness?
A 15 April 1907.
Q And where were you born, witness?
A In S-k-j-a-n-e-f-a, N-a-m-v-i-k.
Q Have you any family, witness?
A Yes, a wife and two children.
Q What is your profession, witness?
A I am police director in Polmak.
Q What was your schooling?
A Elementary school, secondary school, and I took a training course in the Civil Air Defense. I took a police training course in general mechanics. That is all.
Q Since when have you been director of Police in Polmak?
A I have been in Polmak since February 1, 1945.