Q For what reason was the children's home transferred from Vardoe to this place?
AAs I said before Vardoe is situated far to the east, and for that reason there was a great danger that war operations would take place in that region. Apart from that, the building in which the children's home was housed, had been taken over by the Germans.
First of all the children's home was transferred to Kongsfjord.
Q Just a moment, did Russian air attacks take place on Vardoe?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Was not that the reason why this children's home was transferred from Vardoe to a place which was in less danger?
A I assume that both reasons applied.
Q Was Vardoe greatly damaged by these air attacks?
A Yes, indeed.
Q What was the approximate percentage of the town which was destroyed by these air attacks?
AAbout 45 per cent, of the houses.
Q Were destroyed by these air attacks?
A Yes.
Q Witness, you then brought these children to Skjanes on the 1st November 1944?
A Yes.
Q You said it was very difficult to go across the mountains-these children were dressed in a very insufficient manner, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Why did you not put these children into the ships in order to send them to safety in that way?
A Since numerous attacks had taken place at sea by the Russians and other allies, it was deemed very dangerous to evacuate the children by sea.
Q Did this evacuation of the children to Skjanes take place in agreement with the German evacuation commission?
A No. That was out of the question.
Q How did the German evacuation authorities want to transport these children?
A They were transported in such a landing craft, it was an iron boat with a roof and nothing else.
Q And this kind of a transport you found more dangerous than the transport with insufficient clothing across the mountains?
A From Finnkonjkeila to Skjanes the distance is not greater than about 30 kilometers, but to Tromsoe, and that was the first point where the German landing craft would stop, it would have been 650 kilometers, across wide stretches of sea infested with mines, and so forth.
Q Witness, how big is Finnkonjkeila?
AAbout a 100 people lived in Finnkonjkeila.
Q 100. Can a landing craft travel over a distance of 650 kilometers non-stop?
A Mr. Defense Counsel must not assume that I know tho efficiency and capacity of tho German war vessels.
Q You had stated that this was a small iron boat which would only touch land in Tromsoe, that is after a voyage of 650 kilometers, do you know that?
A It was not a small boat, it was one of those flat boats with a flat bottom the English called landing crafts.
Q It was a large boat then?
A What do you mean by a large one and what do you mean by a small one in talking about ships?
Q Just because of that I would like to be told the size of this boat by the witness who has after all soon this boat.
A For the length and width to be given in meters?
Q Yes, please.
AAbout 20 meters long and five to six wide.
Q When you then returned to Skjanes did you again take up your duties as a police officer?
A I said previously that in Skjanes I was waiting for my office which had been delayed in Batsfjord, and as long as my office and the officials had not arrived in full strength, I could not take up my duties with this office.
Q You then had lots of children in the school in Skjanes, how many children were there and how old were they?
A I have already said that there were 23 children, and the age categories from one to 15 years.
Q Did women look after these children?
A Yes, indeed.
Q How many women were available for this purpose?
A I have already told you four.
Q You then said that these small children especially were brought half clothed, half dressed on the boats; why did not these women see to it that these children were properly dressed?
A I have already said that the directores of the children's home came to me and asked me to intervene. The children were taken on board the ship while I was looking on myself.
Q This does not constitute an answer to my question.
A How could the women dress the children when the Germans tore these children from their beds and conducted them to the boats.
Q Excuse me witness. I put a question to you, why did the women not dress these children. You answered by putting a question to me.
A It was like this. The directores of this children's home had come to me and she hoped and expected that I would be successful seeing that the children were not taken and if the children were not taken away there would have been no necessity for dressing them.
Q. How long did you negotiate with the German officer about this question?
A. About 5 minutes.
Q. And he still refused to leave the children in the home?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Was the director of this children's home present at this discussion?
A. She was in the house while I was talking to the officer outside the house on the stairs.
Q. Could she not in the meantime see to it that the children were dressed?
A. The director of the children's home did not believe the Germans would be brutal enough to take the children in this manner.
Q. Had it been said that the children were to be evacuated on a ship?
A. Yes, that was said.
Q. Now, what was the brutality in this procedure?
A. First of all it was brutal that the children should be subjected to such a. voyage. It was so to speak an iron box, the boat was nothing else but an iron box with a motor at the end. Apart from that not enough time was loft to prepare the children in a proper manner for a voyage of this kind.
Q. How much time was at their dispositional?
A. Not much more than 5 minutes.
Q. You mean to say that from the time the German soldiers announced Skjanes was to be evacuated until the time the children had to board the ship?
A. The children's home or the population generally?
Q. The population generally?
A. One hour.
Q. How large is Skjanes, as regards population, I mean?
A. About 150 inhabitants.
Q. Witness, you had received permission for yourself to return home again and to look after the evacuation of your family, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Have I understood you correctly that the Germans had surrounded the whole village by sentries?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. In spite of that you did not board the ship?
A. No.
Q. Rather you went into the mountains?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Were you not observed by the soldiers who surrounded the village?
A. No. The village of Skjanes is so very extended there is one house here and one house quite a distance away.
Q. One can't really speak of surrounding this village then?
A. German soldiers were posted around the village. To say "surrounded" would not be the proper expression.
Q. Have I understood the number correctly of those who entered the mountains from Skjanes, did you say there were 130?
A. I said in the camp in which I was we were 130 People.
Q. Were all of these people from Skjanes?
A. All of these people came from Skjanes.
Q. Witness, how many people were evacuated from Skjanes?
A. 27.
Q. And all the others could save themselves from being evacuated by fleeing?
A. Yes, I have already said that.
Q. How many German soldiers had landed in order to carry out the evacuation?
A. I don't know whether I saw all of them the way I was, however, I want to say there must have been 15 to 20 men.
Q. Do you want to say these 15 or 20 people were not in a position to supervise the place that was evacuated?
A. It is evident that the population of the village knew the conditions of the terrain in the village and in the surrounding country better than the soldiers who were posted there, and for that reason they were successful in gaining the mountains in spite of the soldiers.
Q. Where was the evacuation intended to take the people from Skjanes?
A. We did not get any information on this.
Q. Was this transport boat which was to evacuate the peculation from SKjanes, was that also a fairly large boat, that is to say a ship?
A. It was the same landing craft of which I have already spoken.
Q. The same boat which evacuated the population in that other place?
A. The same boat which evacuated the children from Skjanes traveled to Finnkonjkeila, on the next day, and that is as far as I heard, and took the population on board as there were only very few who had come to the boat.
Q. You said, the evacuation of Finnkonjkeila took place before that of Skjanes, is that not correct?
A. No, it took place afterwards.
Q. Witness, you were in Finnkonjkeila, that place was evacuated, there you escaped the evacuation, and you also took the children with you, and then you went to Skjanes?
A. My family was in Skjanes. I was asked from Finnkonjkeila to go there and help and bring these children to safety. I therefore went from Skjanes to Finnkonjkeila. My family, therefore, was not in Finnkonjkeila.
Q. That is correct? Witness, when you were in Finnkonjkeila, there were German troops there, as you said, in order to evacuate that place?
A. German troops were there in order to burn down the place.
Q. And leave the population there?
A. The population was to stay there. It was said that a ship would come and will fetch you.
Q. And this ship, witness, when you went to Skjanes had not arrived in Finnkonjkeila?
A. No, it bad not arrived at Finnkonjkeila yet. The ship which actually came had been in Skjanes, had taken the children aboard, and touched Finnkonjkeila on the way to the south on the way across the fjord.
Q. Witness, on my question when I asked if the ship was to go to Skjanes, you answered me you did not know, is that correct?
A. We got the information that the population was to be sent to the south.
Q. No place was named?
A. No place was named.
Q. But you knew that the same ship which had taken the children was going to Tromsoe, that is what you said previously?
A. I did not know that the ship was bound for Tromsoe. I heard later when communications were re-established that the ship had gone to Tromsoe.
Q. Witness, as reason for your wanting to take the children across the mountains, you told me this was that Skjanes was only 30 kilometers while you had known that the ship was bound for Tromsoe, that would have been 650 kilometers; and now you are telling that you learned only later that the ship was to go to Tromsoe?
A. I named Tromsoe because I know now where the ship was bound for. That is the reason I named this distance.
Q. At that time you did not know that the ship was bound for Tromsoe?
A. No. I only knew that the children were to be sent south.
Q. Previously, you told me on my question of why you went by foot over the mountains, you told me that you had escaped evacuation because the ship was bound for Tromsoe. That is previously, you tole me that you knew at that time that the ship was bound for Tromsoe. Why is there discrepancy in that, witness.
A. When the Germans came and said the ship was bound for the south, when we in Norway talk of the south we mean everything south of Trondehjem. If we talk of northern Norway, we talk of everything situated north of Tromsoe.
Q. Witness, thank you, we can leave this subject now. One question. Did you talk about the evidence during the noon recess with any of your fellow countrymen?
A. No.
Q. Witness, as you said, you then went in a Norwegian motorboat from Skjanes to Vardoe, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, may I first of all ask you, do you speak German?
A. Very little. I understand a little bit of German.
Q. Was this motorboat belonging to the Norwegian government of that time?
A. This was a fishing vessel which belonged to a fisher in the Batsfjord.
Q. Witness, when you returned to Vardoe, did you take up your duties?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You said you had made investigations regarding those people who had escaped to the mountains?
A. Yes.
Q. And on whose orders did you do that?
A. On the order of my chief, the police director.
Q. That is on the official orders of the then Norwegian government?
A. What does the defense counsel understand by "Norwegian Government" in this case?
Q. The superiors of your police director.
A. The Norwegian government was in London. The Quisling government was never recognized as a Norwegian government.
Q. Witness, I please ask you not to evade this Question. I have asked you on whose orders your director of police was acting?
A. Norwegian members of the Norwegian government in England had come back to Norway as well as Norwegian soldiers, and they started work right away.
Q. When was that, witness?
A. I returned to Vardoe on the 19th November, and there the Norwegian agencies had already started work who had come over from England.
Q. Witness, on the basis of these investigations you made, what did you find out about those people who had escaped into the mountains? Did many people die?
A. The people who had escaped from the burned down villages to the mountains had made great efforts to build houses. Winter should have started at that time already, but in that year autumn was very long.
Q. My Question was to this point. What did you find out about the fate of those people, that is to say, whether many of these people did perish.
A. I know of some cases in which people perished because of the strenuous conditions under which they had to live.
Q. Their number can't have been very considerable, as I take it, from you answer.
A. This is due only to the very mild weather. Normally, winter starts in this part of Norway on the first of October, that is in the first week of October; in this year, it started only at the end of November.
Q. Witness, this does not vet answer the question. I asked you for the number of victims.
A. In my district that is in the district of Skjanes, I learned that one elderly man in (spelling) L-a-n-g-f-j-o-r-d-n-e-s-, had died while fleeing.
Q. Otherwise, you did not hear of any case of death?
A. And in Skjanes a woman died of heart trouble because of her exertions. That was after I had left Skjanes.
Q. Was that an old woman?
A. She was between 40 and 50.
Q. Witness, for about three or four years you served in an official capacity under the German occupation?
A. During the German occupation, under the German occupation powers, yes.
Q. Did you have any contact with the German military during that time?
A. In Finnmark the number of soldiers was many times larger than the number of the civilian population. In the course of time, Germans had more and more authority in regard to the many things that were happening there, and it was quite inevitable that the civilian population came in to contact with the German soldiers.
Q. That is what I implied in my question. I only wanted to know from you whether you had any closer contact with the German soldiers?
I ask you to answer this question with only yes or no.
A. Partly.
Q. What were your personal experiences with the German Army troops there?
A. I did not like them.
Q. Excuse me, I believe that. I asked you what were your experiences that is, how did the German soldiers behave toward you?
A. They behaved as the Germans have always behaved themselves towards the population of an occupied territory. They lock upon themselves as the Master Race.
Q. I don't believe that we can go any further into this problem in this manner. I want to hear from you whether you personally have had bad experiences with these German soldiers apart from the evacuation?
A. As police official during the time of the German occupation, I could observe how the Germans took every opportunity to look down upon one as something more or less inferior.
Q. That is a, matter of emotion. I have asked you whether something unpleasant was done to you or to your family?
A. A German officer wanted to have me punished because during a stormy night during which one could hardly see anything. I had passed him without greeting him or saluting him.
Q. That is the only unpleasant experience you had with the Germans?
A. During all this time all we Norwegians wore under tremendous pressure because of the German occupation.
Q. Witness, I certainly understand you. Nobody likes to have the enemy in his country, but this is not the matter at issue here. I'd like to ask you to answer my question now. Did you yourself suffer from unjust treatment from the part of German soldiers?
A. What do you mean by "unpleasantness"?
Q. I would then like you to answer the following question. What have you to complain of regarding the treatment of yourself or your family on the part of the German occupation forces?
Have you nothing to say in this matter, witness?
A I cannot at the moment remember anything except for this, that we were insulted. The Norwegian official authorities were not recognized.
Q You said you were continuously insulted. Surely, you must recall one of these many insults.
Witness, may I put another question to you, so that we don't spend too much time on this? Did the German armed forces provide food for the population?
AAs far as I know, the Norwegian population was not provisioned by the German armed forces.
Q The Norwegian population did also live on foodstuffs which were imported, not only on food which was raised in the country?
A We imported a certain amount of foodstuffs.
Q. These imports would have to go through the German occupation channels at that time?
A I personally don't know anything about that.
DR. FRITSCH: For the time being I have no further questions to the witness in cross examination.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. RAPP:
Q. Witness, were you a member of the Illegal Norwegian movement?
A Yes, indeed. I worked in the Illegal movement.
Q Were you ever aware of the fact that under German law this movement was illegal?
A Yes, I was, indeed, aware of that.
Q Did you look upon this work in the Illegal movement as a duty?
A Yes, I did.
Q You told us that there wore more German troops in that neighborhood than there were Norwegian inhabitants. Is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Was it very dangerous for you to servo your royal government in England?
A Yes, indeed, there was always the danger that the Germans or that the members of the Quisling Party would get news of it.
Q And what was the punishment publicly known which the military government had issued for such membership?
A In the lightest cases, it was penitentiary or forced labor and usually death sentences.
Q Witness, you told us that about 2% of the Norwegian population were adherents of Quisling. Is that correct?
A Yes, it is.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I just wonder what all this has to do with the evacuation of Norway.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, I submit that this particular phase was brought in by defense in their cross examination, a matter which we did not intend to include. It was put in there for the purpose of discrediting the witness and I am trying to establish the fact that the witness's conduct up there was not of that nature.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Well, no one objected and we sat here and listened patiently and I don't think that warrants going back into it again. These examinations never will end if every new point that is brought up provokes another long new line of testimony.
MR. RAPP: Very well then, your Honor; if in the future such points are brought up by the defense, we shall object.
Q Witness, could you tell us the climatic conditions prevailing at the time of the evacuation?
A The climatic conditions were unusually favorable in this fall.
MR. RAPP: Shall I repeat this question in German to go back to the German language?
Q What were the climatic conditions in Norway or, rather, in Finnmark during the time of the evacuation?
A The climatic conditions at that time were very unusually favorable for this time of the year.
Q Witness, can you describe to us what conditions were like at sea during the time when you were in Finnkojnkeila?
A The weather was good.
Q Witness, if talking of the sea, I believe at least one does not talk in terms of good or bad. Could you describe just what the sea was like?
A The sea was quiet and calm.
Q Witness, was the coast up there infested with mines?
A Yes, indeed. There were nines all over the place.
Q I am not not talking of land. I am talking of the water. I am talking of sea mines.
A Yes, these were sea mines.
Q How did yon know that?
A I learned that in Vardoe because if a Norwegian ship confiscated by the Germans was ordered to go some place the crew of this ship learned what course it had to take in order to evade the mines.
Q Who laid those mines?
A The Germans laid those nines. On the other hand, German as well as British airplanes had dropped mines.
Q Did you ever see, witness, whether German ships of any kind or size--I am talking now of those which either entered the coastal area or left the coastal area--were any of those ships destroyed by mines?
A Yes, I did see that.
Q Was this fact known to you when the problem of the children's home was under discussion, the fact that German ships had hit enemy mines in the coastal areas--was that fact known to you when the problem of the evacuation of the children's hone was under discussion?
A It was generally known among the coastal population that Russian and British airplanes had dropped nines. The population got to know that in the following manner--that certain routes in the sea. were blocked until German mine sweepers had swept those lanes.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will take our afternoon recess at this time.
(A recess was taken)
BY MR. RAPP:
Q Before the recess we talked about mines which were laid along the coast by the Allies, and that the population knew about that because occasionally German boats exploded. Witness, was this fact one of the reasons why you tried to prevent the children from being evacuated by sea?
A Yes, that was one of the reasons.
Q Witness, you have stated here that you personally had no bad experiences with the Germans, that you can remember. Is that correct?
A No, I cannot remember any incidents.
Q Of a personal nature?
A Yes, of a personal nature.
Q Then you merely expressed your feelings?
A Yes, only my feelings.
Q Witness, can you tell us quite briefly, apart from the examples which you have already stated in your main testimony of bad experiences which you yourself observed or which were reported directly to you in your capacity as political chief, bad experiences of your countrymen up there with the Germans.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: I do not see any necessity for going through that again unless it is something in addition to what he has testified to.
MR. RAPP: That is what I wanted to test whether or not he had additional testimony to give to that particular issue, your Honor.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: I think you should limit it to anything additional then.
A. Yes. After Russia and Germany were at war, the Germans issued an order, according to which all people over 15 years of age had to have an identification card, and this identification card had always to be carried by the people. The Germans often controlled the people to see whether they had these papers, and while they pretended to carry out these controls, there were sometimes violations on the part of the Germans.
Q Witness, we are merely interested that you tell us, without beating about the bush too much, and quite briefly, what kind of violations these were, whether you were a witness of them, or whether they were reported to you in your official capacity. That is all that we are interested in.
A In one of these cases an old woman was exposed to one of these identification card controls, and when she did not produce the paper quickly enough, a pistol was pushed into her back, she was taken across the street and she was threatened with being placed before the Field Gendarmerie.
Q How do you know this?
A This was reported to me in my capacity as a policeman.
In one case a young Norwegian was hit down on the street by two Germans. The young man wanted to meet a Norwegian girl, and the Germans also wanted to go with this girl, and therefore they hit him down. That was reported to me.
Q Witness, in the first case which you told us about, was it reported to you who the people were?
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Just a moment. The indictment in this case charges that the defendant Rendulic was charged with a crime committed during the evacuation. It seems to me that this evidence of what happened during the occupation is outside of the scope of the indictment.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, the occupation in this particular phase was part of the evacuation, i.e. the occupation was de facto still existing. I believe this would fit into the evidence we are submitting. In other words, the occupation did not cease the minute the evacuation started.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: If I remember correctly, the indictment charges the burning of the homes and destruction of property as not being a militarily necessity. There is nothing said about injuring of killing any of the population or anything of that kind. It seems to me that we are getting outside of the scope of this particular area.
MR. RAPP: Very well, your Honor, then I have no further questions for the witness.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Is there anything further?
BY DR. FRITSCH, for Rendulic:
Your Honor, I only have one question in connection with the redirect examination.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, we submit that we have been rather liberal in permitting defense counsel to have so to speak, the last word every time the prosecution produces a witness. Heretofore we feel that that prosecution introducing a witness, that after the crossexamination, the testimony ought to be concluded. Now the defense is trying to re-direct or re-cross examine the witness at this time.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: I think where the prosecution brings in now evidence, they are entitled to bring in cross-examination. If it is rebuttal, they are not. We will permit him to ask the question.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I only have one question which arises from the re-examination of the prosecution.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, you wore asked in the re-direct examination whether the military government, that is the German military government in Norway had issued heavy penalties.
My question is was there a German Military Government in Norway?
A. There was a Reich Commissar, Torboven.
Q. Do I understand you correctly that this Reich Commissioner was a military authority?
A. I do not know how far his authority went, and of what kind it was.
Q. Was the office of he Reich Commissioner a military agency, witness?
A. I do not know what relation he had to the military.
Q. Witness, did you ever hear that Norwegians came before a military court?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you now mean a court of the Reich Commissioner or a Army court?
A. This was a so-called court martial.
Q. And who was on this court tribunal?
A. I was never in those courts.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Are there further questions by the defense? The Tribunal has none.
Is there any reason why this witness should not be excused permanently?
The witness will be excused.
(Witness excused)
MR. RAPP: If your Honors please, we would like now to return to Document Book 23. Your Honors, the first document we would like to submit is the document which at present is marked for identification as 515-A the one I handed Your Honors this morning. --515-A. This particular jurat which has been furnished in its translation to the defense counsel; reads as follows:
I, IVAR FOLLESTAD, certify; that I am a Counsellor at Law and I am duly licensed to practice before the Supreme Court of Norway and all Inferior Courts of Norway, that I am a Lieutenant Colonel in the Norwegian Army; that I am a duly authorized representative of the office of the Attorney General of Norway and as such I am duly accredited to the office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes (US) at Nurnburg, Germany; that I brought to Nurngerg, Germany, documents Norway 2, Norway 11 and Norway 12; that the procedure detailed herewith was followed in connection with these documents.