A. Yes, all the time.
Q. And what was the agency who gave the orders to the Croatian units for their own operations.
A. Those were the leaders of the Croatian units.
Q. In order not to make this examination too long, if you talk here about the Croatian Armed Forces and about tactical subordination for certain purposes, (under omission of disciplinary and judicial subordination) does your testimony apply to the Croatian Army Domobran units only or may we also apply it to the Waffen units of the Ustasha?
A. Yes, they are concerned in the same way.
Q. You told us that those Ustasha units were part of the Croatian Armed Forces and were, as such, subordinated to the leadership of the Croatian Armed Forces. Were there, in addition, other Ustasha units bearing arms who did not represent a part of the Croatian Armed Forces?
A. Yes, there were local home guard organizations which were organized by the Croatian administrative officials and were taken care of by them.
Q. What kind of units do we have to imagine when we talk about these Ustasha units?
A. There was a voluntary joining together of the male inhabitants of a certain area and these men wanted to defend this particular area against an attacking enemy; in actual fact they did this.
Q. Was there any authority on the part of the German agencies over these home guard units?
A. No.
Q. Were these units ever committed tactically?
A. No, not by us. These units remained only in their own home areas. If the enemy threatened their homes, then they would take up arms, join up together and present a kind of local defense and defend against the attacking enemy. If we had our own forces in such an area, then we would immediately go to such a threatened area, defeat the enemy, and then these people would just go home.
Q. But there can then be no talk of a proper tactical commitment of these units, there was nothing like that, was there?
A. No, they were only people who would join up in emergency cases.
Q. And these units, if I understood you correctly, carried out such defensive operations sometimes without the German Armed Forces gaining knowledge of this?
A. Yes, quite frequently.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will take our usual morning recess at this time.
(A recess was taken. )
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. FULKERSON: If the Court please, I'd like to make one brief statement before Dr. Tipp proceeds. I am afraid that Dr. Tipp feels that, in asking the witness von Besser for his notes this morning, I took unfair advantage of him; and I would simply like to say that it has been, at least in my experience, the exception rather than the rule when a defendant or a defense witness goes to the stand without being loaded down with notes of one kind or another. And it is the practice of reaching questions and answers rather than a question of personalities involved here and I certainly meant no reflection on Dr. Tipp personally, nor did I think that he is to be criticized for following the practice that has been followed so many times before by his colleagues. That is all.
BY DR. TIPP (CONTINUED)
Q. Witness, we concluded, before the recess, with the question whether units of the Croatian Wehrmacht and also Croatian Berne Guards, without order or knowledge of the German Wehrmacht, carried out large or small operations and you answered this question in the affirmative and I would like to ask you an additional question about this.
If the German troops found out about such an operation by the Croatian Wehrmacht or by a Croatian Rome Guard organization later on was this included in the reports of the German troops to the superior office?
A. Yes, of course, as far as that was important for the evaluation of the whole position to the superior office.
Q. You have explained rather in detail, witness, the organization of the Croatian Wehrmacht and its command. Furthermore, you talked about the Croatian Rome Guard units. But another kind of formation played a large part in this and they have cropped up here under the most various names, I mean the so-called Chetniks. And now what can you tell us, basically, about the system of these Chetniks?
A. Of course, I can only give information about this as far as it concerned my units during operations, with us we had two kinds of these peoples.
Once the former Yugoslav Major Eremic with a few hundred men from the so-called Eighth land division came over to us out of conviction in order to protect his own home land, which was in the territory occupied by us against the partisans; and further in our area there were also several small local home guard units, in Serbian areas inside the Croatian territory. That is, just as local Ustasha units arose, local Chetnik units also arose to protect their home land, but they were in no way subordinate to us. They only wanted to achieve peace and order in their own home land.
Q. Might I perhaps place another question with regard to these troops of Major Eremic about whom you just spoke? Did this group remain as a closed, fighting unit or was this group also a local home guard unit, as you called them previously?
A. No; this group remained on one group. It wore uniform, olivegreen uniform with a standard cap. This was the so-called Serbian cap. In the front they wore the big Serbian double eagle which could be seen from a great distance as a shining silver emblem.
Q And then, with regard to Major Eremic's troops, can one speak about them as regular troops?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q And now, could this Eremic unit be placed into operation by your division?
A. We could take up contact with Major Eremic and then we could discuss matters with him and if he agreed he would cooperate--however, I remember only one or two occasions in which such operations were carried out under such an agreement, but, of course, these operations only took place in his area.
Q. You said if it were agreeable to him he cooperated with you. what do you mean? Was there any kind of possibility from a military point of view that any pressure was exerted on him?
A. No, not at all. You see, it was like this: Major Eremic and his men never surrendered to us in that sense.
He came with his entire detachment, with arms and munitions away from the partisans in his area. He sent us a negotiator who was also armed and said that he wanted to fight together with us because he had found out that we wanted to bring peace and order into his home land and on this b***s we fought together for the common aim of creating peace and order in this area.
If, for instance, I drove over there all was very strange and peculiar because suddenly one was surrounded by a group of rather wild figures, and then one was escorted to Major Eremic, well, one really had to rely on these people.
Q. You said, Herr Kobe, if I understand you correctly, that this group was independent from you and only participated in the fighting when it was agreeable to them. Now did this group carry out independent operations themselves?
A. Yes. Currently inside their area and mainly towards the north they carried our operations completely independently and informed us of what they thought was important to us.
Q And you talked about the other Chetnik groups which just as the Ustasha units you described as local home guard organizations. With regard to these troops can one really talk about actual closed units or what was tho condition here?
A. No. As I have already described, this was a pure local joining together of the able-bodied members of the population in order to protect their own homeland. As one example, south of Ototac there was a valley which was called Lipovopolje.
Q. Herr Kobe, would you please spell the name for the record?
A. LIPOVOPOLJE, Lipovopolje. Here the people, as I said joined together and blocked the entrance to their area; one had to pass over a river and they removed all the bridges. We found out about the existence of this home guard only after we had been there for sometime. We tried to get into contact with them but first of all this was only possible by shouting across the river and we found out about their aims and thereupon they themselves took up contact with us and the bridges were put up again and things progressed quite nicely after that.
Q. Compared to central European conditions and also to conditions in the U.S.A. these local home guards units are rather difficult to understand Herr Kobe. Could you please tell us from you knowledge of the area how from a historical point of view these home guard units actually arose?
A. Well, through our area there ran about 200 years ago the Austro-Hungarian frontier. A long this military frontier there were then six positions which were held permanently by troops. In order to make this quite clear that was the frontier against the Turks.
MR. FULKERSON: I don't believe the witness has qualified himself on Balkan history and politics so I, therefore, object to this line of testimony.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q. If there is any doubt I would like to ask the witness first of all where he got this knowledge from, which he wishes to communicated to the Tribunal here. Herr Kobe, before telling us about the conditions may I ask you to tell the Tribunal where you got this knowledge about the historical conditions in this area.
A. I found it out from my Divisional Commander who was an Austrian and then I found this out from the population with whom I was in close contact all the time.
MR. FULKERSON: I think that only bears out that he is not qualified as an expert, if Your Honor please, and I reiterate my objection.
JUDGE CARTER: I think the witness can testify as to what knowledge he may have and on cross-examination if you can show that his sources were not reliable you may proceed.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q. Herr Kobe, then please continue with your brief historical outline. You said last that the old Austro-Hungarian military frontier ran through your area.
A. Yes, and I also said that there were certain strong points along this frontier. Now the able bodied men in this district went about their work under normal circumstances. If an enemy attack was threatened then they took up their weapons and fought together with the permanent units in order to prevent the enemy entering their area. We, ourselves, up to a certain degree, experienced that kind of fighting by the Croatians and we also adapted it to our needs. These people were called at that time Frontiermen and that clears up their attitude and their task at least as far as Germany is concerned.
Q. Witness, I think you have clarified the conditions in the area in order to make the next question understandable. In order to get a little more clarification I would like to ask you this question. Did your division have any kind of possibility of command over these Cetnik home guard organizations; could you give the Cetnik organizations any kind of directives and were you in any way responsible from a military point of view for these units?
A. No, we were not, and we also didn't give them any orders but from case to case we contacted Major Eremic as the highest Serbian authority in this area/.
Q. And now let's go back to the units of the Croatian Wehrmacht, the units of the Waffen Ustascha and the Domobran, you said that these could from time to time be used by you tactically after agree ment of your divisional Commander with the Croatian Divisional or Battalion Commanders.
Could you undertake any operation if the Croatian Divisional Commanders in reply to such a request from your Divisional Commanders stated that the regiments or battalions applied for could not be made available and what possibility did you have to exert pressure on this high Croatian officer?
A. We couldn't force him at all and this can be seen from what I have already said. We could report this to the corps headquarters for them to pass it on to the Croatian War Ministry.
Q. And did it happen, witness, do you remember, that a Croatian Divisional Commander ever refused to make any kind of unit available for a common operation?
A. Yes, that was very frequently the case.
Q. And now another question. Let's assume for a certain case a Croatian Regiment was placed at your disposal and then they received a tactical order and did not carry out the order properly, what could your Divisional Commander do then?
A. We only had to do with battalions; there weren't any regiments with us in general. We could complain to the Croatian Divisional Commander and directly to our Liaison officer and then as I have already said we could report to the corps to be passed on by them to the Croatian government and also we could ask for the relief of Croatian officers from his post and I remember one case in which this actually happened.
Q. But if I understand you correctly Herr Kobe, you did not have the possibility to insist directly for your order to be carried out?
A. No, we did not have this possibility and also apart from the purely legal point of view in actual fact we couldn't do this.
You must remember in the whole area we were only, I think, 3,500 Germans and then with two divisions we had about 6,500 Croatians. The The Ustascha and the Domobran units in our area were altogether perhaps 8,000 to 9,000 men.
That meant 15,000 Croatians as against only 3,000 Germans and if we wanted to use any force at all then it could have happened that out own soldiers would have joined up with the Ustascha and Croats and then that would have been a rather difficult situation.
Q. And now another question. Let us assume that such a home guard unit was temporarily made subordinate to you for an operation and this unit committed an excess. What possibility had the division to take action about this excess if you found out about it subsequently?
A. Exactly the same possibility as we have just talked about.
Q. Well then let us assume, witness, that some officer of the Ustascha. unit had committed some kind of offense. Did the corps then have the right or possibility to proceed against this Ustascha officer personally?
A. Which do you mean the division or the corps?
Q. The Division.
A. No, I said if necessary we could ask for him to be relieved from his position and we actually did this in one or two cases.
Q. You mention one or two cases, witness. Can you explain a little more in detail your theoretical statements, by an example, perhaps.
A. Yes, first of all the following example: East of Ototac a Ustascha officer had been murdered by Serbs, an ensign of the same Ustascha unit then burned down a small village and shot part of the population. We requested at once a judicial investigation of the case and a judicial judgment; and that we could be absolutely certain about it we wanted a copy of this judgment. All this was promised by the Croatian authorities. The ensign was brought by the Croatians to Zagreb allegedly to be sentenced there. But, we found out nothing else about the matter at all from the Croatians although from funda mental consideration we kept on asking, what about this sentence and after a long time a Croatian soldier of our own division reported to us that the ensign concerned had been seen by him in a Ustascha unit in quite another district East of Zagreb and therefore all our representations were completely without success.
Would you like some more examples?
Q I think that is sufficient on this point. Now a further question, since the Ustascha and Domobran question is cleared up. If a Chetnik unit committed an offense of some kind and the division found out about this too, what action could then be taken against the guilty men?
A We could get into contact with Major Eremic and tell him about the matter or we could report to the corps for it to be passed on to the agencies concerned but practically this wasn't necessary because in our area the Serbs were strongly in the minority as against the Croats and in general they did not commit any excesses of any kind.
Q All right, I think this also clears up that point too. Now, Herr Kobe, you have told us about the indigenous units, about tho Ustascha and Waffen Ustascha and local Ustascha, Domobran units and Chetniks and you have also indicated that between these ethnic Groups there were strong frictions and on tho basis of what we know these difficulties and contradictions were based on the historical ethnic conditions in this area. Could you please tell the Tribunal the importance of these ethnic questions for the fighting in the Croatian area?
A Yes, we only fought against the Tito partisans and our greatest interest was to maintain peace and order in our area and hand in hand with this, of course, went the construction of the Croatian state who also wanted to have peace and order in its territory. But, there are very great contrasts there between the indigenous Croatian and the indigenous Serbian population which just in our area were enormously interlocked. The Ustascha in their national ardor wanted time and again to use the protection which we gave them against the partisans to settle personal accounts against the Serbs and we, which is understandable, were not interested at all in these acts of revenge.
On the contrary, we wanted nothing more than to have an orderly state in our rear. Therefore, in those Serbian villages which were threatened by the Ustascha, we frequently stationed small units of our division. They were so disciplined and our soldiers, although they were Croatians, were quite uninterested in this kind of ethnic fighting and it is no wonder that out soldiers, as I once experienced myself, in these Serbian localities were greeted in a most friendly manner as bringers of peace and order and these measures were often regarded with suspicion by the Ustascha units but we were always able to make it quite clear that such fighting was really not right. Therefore I must also deny expressly the charge that we actually tried to decimate the people of this area. On the contrary we always tried to do the opposite and I would like to say that we also achieved exactly the opposite.
Q And now since we have discussed these basic questions Herr Kobe, I would like to discuss a few documents with you. The documents have been submitted by the Prosecution against General von Leyser and they mainly refer to reports which originated in the area of your division. First of all your division had the honor to be mentioned in the written indictment. In count 2 of the indictment, figure 9 e, the Prosecution states that troops of the 392nd Division in the period from January 1944, until March 1945 burned down the Croatian villages of Tresnica, Pisac, and Tuskovic and Bolbotersa, and that they destroyed these villages and plundered them. What can you reply first of all basically with regard to this question that troops of your division, as the Prosecution said burned, robbed and plundered the villages mentioned before.
A I would like to say first of all that this charge is completely unjustified. I can prove this. First of all with regard to the robbing: The population just in that area in which these localities are situated were so poor that West European or even an American could scarcely imagine anything like it. When we drove through this district in the winter the children were standing around barefooted with only a dirty shirt in front of the house and our soldiers had terrific sympathy with these inhabitants because these soldiers came from the most prosperous area of Croatia and they allowed the population to share in their food, that is the population always received what was left over in the field kitchens and the soldiers also gave them broad, and in Tresnica I, myself, saw how the people then out of gratefulness went into the woods and brought these soldiers some of the berries which are to be found in the woods there. And now, with regard to the burning down, Tresnica had already at the time of the Italians been completely destroyed. When in April 1944 I was there for the first time bushes were already growing from the ruins and that is actual proof that this destruction had taken place some time ago. In addition we found out about this from our close contact with the population of course. Tusevic and Volvodersa were very small villages which were not destroyed, mainly; certainly not at the time when General von Leyser was our commanding General because at that time we were in Tusevic and I also think in Volvodersa our field reserves were stationed for training.
Q You have described the places so well, Herr Kobe, that I may assume that you yourself were very frequently in this district.
Is that correct?
A Yes, I was in Dresnica until late autumn 1944 at least a dozen times, at least a dozen times, and I was also equally often in Tuskoevic.
Q Herr Kobe, can you tell us when you visited these villages mentioned for the last time.
A Yes, I was in Tresnica for the last time in Autumn 1944 and I was in Tusevic the last time during the summer 1944 and in Tuskoevic I had lunch in one of the houses.
Q Then if I understand you correctly Herr Kobe you state that until autumn or at least summer 1944 these villages were not destroyed.
A Well, Tresnica was already destroyed before Tusevic and Volvodersa were not destroyed.
Q Then, could you toll us now when General von Leyser gave up the XV Corps?
A I think that was in the early summer.
Q 1944?
A Yes, 1944.
Q Thank you very much. Herr Kobe, now you have mentioned three of the villages appearing in the indictment and there is another locality remaining, Pisac which also has been described by the Prosecution as having been plundered and burned. Can you state anything about this charge?
A. Pisac, so far as I remember, was a very small village north of our main supply road. There house partisans shot at some of our reconnainance troops, and I think in one case annihilated one. And I remember one case in which we found the horses belonging to one of our vehicles, and the inhabitants said quite calmly that they had brought them from one of the soldiers of our division, and when we found out about the annihilation of one of our reconnainance units we tried to comb the place with a rather larger group. We found out that in a cellar one house partisans with arms were fighting and they were found there. It is quite possible that some of the farms of this village were destroyed during this fighting, because they were found to be positions of the partisans, and I would also like to prove to you, how we knew that they were house partisans. These people carried oat sabotage against our supply roads by mining them, even when the enemy brigades had been thrown back for -- in this case it was the 13th Division of the enemy,just and in this area we had to maintain a very close occupation and protection of our supply lines, which was not necessary in any of the other districts.
Q. Herr Korbe, if I understand you correctly, you say that as far as you remember houses in this last mentioned locality, Pisac, were probably destroyed during the fighting, or as a partisan store point?
A. Yes, individual houses.
Q. And now before I go to the other documents which have been submitted by the Prosecution, I would like to ask you to give the Tribunal an idea of the whole situation and the population, especially in this area Tresnica. Of course only insofar as it is absolutely necessary in order to clear up the matter?
A. The population of this district had suffered very badly under the Italian occupation, and therefore, they of course went over to the Communists and to the Tito partisans. I found out there that the Italians had carried on a really peculiar kind of fighting. They were stationed with large troups in the individual larger localities, they were surrounded by the partisans, and from time to time they carried out a kind of large scale operation against the partisans, but the partisans evaded them cleverly, and as a rule entire localities were absolutely destroyed. Another area when we arrived there we found scarcely any public buildings standing or scarcely any public buildings which were undestroyed, and large localities such as Tresnica, Udvina, and Korenica, and Blidvicky and Leskovac were completely and absolutely destroyed.
Q. Herr Korbe, you mean they were destroyed during the Italian occupation?
A. Yes. Well, now, to come back to this special area, this had become the area of the 13th Partisan Division, and this partisan division had fought very bravely against us, and had suffered heavy losses. The population, by force and by terrific propaganda were kept down, and Tresnica was called "Little Moscow." by the enemy. We talked with the population, and they saw that we were actually only fighting against the armed bands and not against the population, and this will certainly come out during the course of the proceedings, but for me personally it is significant that just these localities are mentioned in the indictment. We, of course, defended ourselves against this enemy propaganda by our own propaganda. Every battalion had a small propaganda unit. These units had pots of paint with them, and when they came past houses which were destroyed or through localities destroyed by the Italians these units wrote the short sentence, "Teti Tito," and this meant in German, "This was done by Tito to you."
Q. If I understand you correctly, Herr Korbe, you said that this area, around Tresnica, in order to make it a little more simple, was a spiritual fortress of Communism in this area; and now was this for your division a good reason to take action against the population or to make it a little more clearer, was just for this reason, the population deported from this area?
A. No, not at all, we talked to the people there, and in the end of course we really couldn't expect that because of their own sons who were serving with the partisan brigades, and they often told us this, and when we found out we left the people in peace and they left us in peace. Sometimes we left them in peace when they didn't leave us in peace. I can even give examples of this. A deportation of the people for idealogical reasons didn't come into the question at all.
Q. Herr Korbe, when you were discussing these four localities you talked about this village of Pisac, and I got the impression that there perhaps were another village called Pisac known to you. Perhaps I misunderstood the way you put it. Perhaps you could explain this a little?
A. Yes, fortunately, and as a favor from the Yugoslav Liassen officer, I have obtained a map here which shows our former area, and I find on it a locality of Pisac which belongs to the area of Gespie. This Gespie was the main garrison of Croatia, and was where the Croatian Division Commander had his headquarters. The enemy in the area of Pisac was the so-called 35th Band Division, and this was predominately Serbian. The Croats from the Pisac district had, owing to the terror of the communists from the area of Gespie, escaped with their cattle, and new at the instigation of the Croats in May 1944 an operation took place which lead to the occupation of this area.
I myself discussed this operation with the general staff officer of the Croatian division in the area of Gespie. He had the documents and the material about this area, and he knew that just in the long row of houses in the West of a valley there were numerous munitionsdepots of the enemy. This knowledge is of course understandable, because as I said, the population there were completely intermingled. I went on leave then, and I returned after this operation into that area. I saw that numerous farms on the western edge of this large valley had been burned down, and I found that in all the houses there, the munition and weapon supplies of the enemies had been stored, and I also found out that the Croatians from Gespie on this occasion had carried out a few personal acts of vengence on the enemy.
JUDGE CARTER: We will take our noon recess at this time.
(Thereupon at 1215 a recess was taken until 1330 p.m.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed, Dr. Tipp.
Q. Herr, Korbe, before the noon recess we had stopped when we discussed the Pisac, and you told us that you had two villages of Pisac in your area, one of the villages near Drezcnica you have already described to us, and the other village Pisac was located in the area of Gospic. When you described these villages and conditions there we had stopped, and I would now like you to continue.
A. I discussed the operation which we carried cut as a large Ustasha mission north of Gospic. This led to the liberation of that area. I would like to emphasize particularly that the area in which Pisac was located was the original area of the Croatian 15th Division, and that under normal circumstances when there were no particular operations which made our interference necessary, we had a border line between us and the Croatian units. This border line ran approximately 20 kilometers north of Gospic to the East. I would like to state that the responsibility far that area was directly in the hands of the Croatian authorities, the military authorities as well as the state authorities. I know that Ustasha, at that time had, in the valley where Pisac is located, burned down quite a few farms. I did not see them burn, out I know it very well because the 35th band Division stored their ammunition and equipment, which they get from the British there. This was about 5 kilometers Northeast of Pisac, and a British airfield was located there, and we eliminated this airfield through our operations, and made further use impossible. I cannot give any opinion for actions of the Ustasha units, and I know that my division was humane, and put humanity far above the laws of war. Since General von Leyser, as I have already stated, had in early spring 1944 taken his leave from the 15th Corps, he could only be made responsible for the destruction that had taken place in the proceeding term before the summer of 1944, during which time up to the date when he left us only this one operation took place.
When I returned from my furlough, and after that operation had been concluded, whether the 15th Croatian division carried out any further operations in this area I do not know. In order to make the facts quite clear: since the bands hid their munitions and guns in these houses, these people exposed their own relatives to great danger.
Q. Witness, one question in this connection, in order to clarify the facts this morning, and now again you were talking about band divisions; now, for instance, you mentioned the 35th Band Division. may I ask you in this connection whether this so-called division was a regular troop division, let me say as the term is applied by the American or British, or by the German armed forces, and if not, what kind of a unit do these band divisions represent?
A. They were so-called large bands, a unit of parts of the population, and which were hospitable towards us and they themselves mentioned these names and designated themselves by these names. We captured many enemy documents and took over the terms used by the enemy, without in this way in any way wanting to attach any importance under International Law to this term. We just called them by these names, and we all knew what we meant by these names.
Q. One further question to clarify a problem which we discussed this morning. You mentioned the Cetnik unit of Major Erremic. You said that major Erremic had, with a number of people, deserted from the partisans. You also told us that this particular unit wore uniforms which were all the same. I believe you said they were olivegreen in color, and they had the Serbian double-eagle on their cap. I would like to know from you now whether this group of Erremic's arrived dressed. like that from the partisans, from the other side to the German side, and if not what was it you wanted to stress with this description?
A. All I wanted to do was to designate the uniform which they wore when they fought with us. When they arrived with our troops they did not yet wear that uniform.