Q I think that is sufficient on this point. Now a further question, since the Ustascha and Domobran question is cleared up. If a Chetnik unit committed an offense of some kind and the division found out about this too, what action could then be taken against the guilty men?
A We could get into contact with Major Eremic and tell him about the matter or we could report to the corps for it to be passed on to the agencies concerned but practically this wasn't necessary because in our area the Serbs were strongly in the minority as against the Croats and in general they did not commit any excesses of any kind.
Q All right, I think this also clears up that point too. Now, Herr Kobe, you have told us about the indigenous units, about tho Ustascha and Waffen Ustascha and local Ustascha, Domobran units and Chetniks and you have also indicated that between these ethnic Groups there were strong frictions and on tho basis of what we know these difficulties and contradictions were based on the historical ethnic conditions in this area. Could you please tell the Tribunal the importance of these ethnic questions for the fighting in the Croatian area?
A Yes, we only fought against the Tito partisans and our greatest interest was to maintain peace and order in our area and hand in hand with this, of course, went the construction of the Croatian state who also wanted to have peace and order in its territory. But, there are very great contrasts there between the indigenous Croatian and the indigenous Serbian population which just in our area were enormously interlocked. The Ustascha in their national ardor wanted time and again to use the protection which we gave them against the partisans to settle personal accounts against the Serbs and we, which is understandable, were not interested at all in these acts of revenge.
On the contrary, we wanted nothing more than to have an orderly state in our rear. Therefore, in those Serbian villages which were threatened by the Ustascha, we frequently stationed small units of our division. They were so disciplined and our soldiers, although they were Croatians, were quite uninterested in this kind of ethnic fighting and it is no wonder that out soldiers, as I once experienced myself, in these Serbian localities were greeted in a most friendly manner as bringers of peace and order and these measures were often regarded with suspicion by the Ustascha units but we were always able to make it quite clear that such fighting was really not right. Therefore I must also deny expressly the charge that we actually tried to decimate the people of this area. On the contrary we always tried to do the opposite and I would like to say that we also achieved exactly the opposite.
Q And now since we have discussed these basic questions Herr Kobe, I would like to discuss a few documents with you. The documents have been submitted by the Prosecution against General von Leyser and they mainly refer to reports which originated in the area of your division. First of all your division had the honor to be mentioned in the written indictment. In count 2 of the indictment, figure 9 e, the Prosecution states that troops of the 392nd Division in the period from January 1944, until March 1945 burned down the Croatian villages of Tresnica, Pisac, and Tuskovic and Bolbotersa, and that they destroyed these villages and plundered them. What can you reply first of all basically with regard to this question that troops of your division, as the Prosecution said burned, robbed and plundered the villages mentioned before.
A I would like to say first of all that this charge is completely unjustified. I can prove this. First of all with regard to the robbing: The population just in that area in which these localities are situated were so poor that West European or even an American could scarcely imagine anything like it. When we drove through this district in the winter the children were standing around barefooted with only a dirty shirt in front of the house and our soldiers had terrific sympathy with these inhabitants because these soldiers came from the most prosperous area of Croatia and they allowed the population to share in their food, that is the population always received what was left over in the field kitchens and the soldiers also gave them broad, and in Tresnica I, myself, saw how the people then out of gratefulness went into the woods and brought these soldiers some of the berries which are to be found in the woods there. And now, with regard to the burning down, Tresnica had already at the time of the Italians been completely destroyed. When in April 1944 I was there for the first time bushes were already growing from the ruins and that is actual proof that this destruction had taken place some time ago. In addition we found out about this from our close contact with the population of course. Tusevic and Volvodersa were very small villages which were not destroyed, mainly; certainly not at the time when General von Leyser was our commanding General because at that time we were in Tusevic and I also think in Volvodersa our field reserves were stationed for training.
Q You have described the places so well, Herr Kobe, that I may assume that you yourself were very frequently in this district.
Is that correct?
A Yes, I was in Dresnica until late autumn 1944 at least a dozen times, at least a dozen times, and I was also equally often in Tuskoevic.
Q Herr Kobe, can you tell us when you visited these villages mentioned for the last time.
A Yes, I was in Tresnica for the last time in Autumn 1944 and I was in Tusevic the last time during the summer 1944 and in Tuskoevic I had lunch in one of the houses.
Q Then if I understand you correctly Herr Kobe you state that until autumn or at least summer 1944 these villages were not destroyed.
A Well, Tresnica was already destroyed before Tusevic and Volvodersa were not destroyed.
Q Then, could you toll us now when General von Leyser gave up the XV Corps?
A I think that was in the early summer.
Q 1944?
A Yes, 1944.
Q Thank you very much. Herr Kobe, now you have mentioned three of the villages appearing in the indictment and there is another locality remaining, Pisac which also has been described by the Prosecution as having been plundered and burned. Can you state anything about this charge?
A. Pisac, so far as I remember, was a very small village north of our main supply road. There house partisans shot at some of our reconnainance troops, and I think in one case annihilated one. And I remember one case in which we found the horses belonging to one of our vehicles, and the inhabitants said quite calmly that they had brought them from one of the soldiers of our division, and when we found out about the annihilation of one of our reconnainance units we tried to comb the place with a rather larger group. We found out that in a cellar one house partisans with arms were fighting and they were found there. It is quite possible that some of the farms of this village were destroyed during this fighting, because they were found to be positions of the partisans, and I would also like to prove to you, how we knew that they were house partisans. These people carried oat sabotage against our supply roads by mining them, even when the enemy brigades had been thrown back for -- in this case it was the 13th Division of the enemy,just and in this area we had to maintain a very close occupation and protection of our supply lines, which was not necessary in any of the other districts.
Q. Herr Korbe, if I understand you correctly, you say that as far as you remember houses in this last mentioned locality, Pisac, were probably destroyed during the fighting, or as a partisan store point?
A. Yes, individual houses.
Q. And now before I go to the other documents which have been submitted by the Prosecution, I would like to ask you to give the Tribunal an idea of the whole situation and the population, especially in this area Tresnica. Of course only insofar as it is absolutely necessary in order to clear up the matter?
A. The population of this district had suffered very badly under the Italian occupation, and therefore, they of course went over to the Communists and to the Tito partisans. I found out there that the Italians had carried on a really peculiar kind of fighting. They were stationed with large troups in the individual larger localities, they were surrounded by the partisans, and from time to time they carried out a kind of large scale operation against the partisans, but the partisans evaded them cleverly, and as a rule entire localities were absolutely destroyed. Another area when we arrived there we found scarcely any public buildings standing or scarcely any public buildings which were undestroyed, and large localities such as Tresnica, Udvina, and Korenica, and Blidvicky and Leskovac were completely and absolutely destroyed.
Q. Herr Korbe, you mean they were destroyed during the Italian occupation?
A. Yes. Well, now, to come back to this special area, this had become the area of the 13th Partisan Division, and this partisan division had fought very bravely against us, and had suffered heavy losses. The population, by force and by terrific propaganda were kept down, and Tresnica was called "Little Moscow." by the enemy. We talked with the population, and they saw that we were actually only fighting against the armed bands and not against the population, and this will certainly come out during the course of the proceedings, but for me personally it is significant that just these localities are mentioned in the indictment. We, of course, defended ourselves against this enemy propaganda by our own propaganda. Every battalion had a small propaganda unit. These units had pots of paint with them, and when they came past houses which were destroyed or through localities destroyed by the Italians these units wrote the short sentence, "Teti Tito," and this meant in German, "This was done by Tito to you."
Q. If I understand you correctly, Herr Korbe, you said that this area, around Tresnica, in order to make it a little more simple, was a spiritual fortress of Communism in this area; and now was this for your division a good reason to take action against the population or to make it a little more clearer, was just for this reason, the population deported from this area?
A. No, not at all, we talked to the people there, and in the end of course we really couldn't expect that because of their own sons who were serving with the partisan brigades, and they often told us this, and when we found out we left the people in peace and they left us in peace. Sometimes we left them in peace when they didn't leave us in peace. I can even give examples of this. A deportation of the people for idealogical reasons didn't come into the question at all.
Q. Herr Korbe, when you were discussing these four localities you talked about this village of Pisac, and I got the impression that there perhaps were another village called Pisac known to you. Perhaps I misunderstood the way you put it. Perhaps you could explain this a little?
A. Yes, fortunately, and as a favor from the Yugoslav Liassen officer, I have obtained a map here which shows our former area, and I find on it a locality of Pisac which belongs to the area of Gespie. This Gespie was the main garrison of Croatia, and was where the Croatian Division Commander had his headquarters. The enemy in the area of Pisac was the so-called 35th Band Division, and this was predominately Serbian. The Croats from the Pisac district had, owing to the terror of the communists from the area of Gespie, escaped with their cattle, and new at the instigation of the Croats in May 1944 an operation took place which lead to the occupation of this area.
I myself discussed this operation with the general staff officer of the Croatian division in the area of Gespie. He had the documents and the material about this area, and he knew that just in the long row of houses in the West of a valley there were numerous munitionsdepots of the enemy. This knowledge is of course understandable, because as I said, the population there were completely intermingled. I went on leave then, and I returned after this operation into that area. I saw that numerous farms on the western edge of this large valley had been burned down, and I found that in all the houses there, the munition and weapon supplies of the enemies had been stored, and I also found out that the Croatians from Gespie on this occasion had carried out a few personal acts of vengence on the enemy.
JUDGE CARTER: We will take our noon recess at this time.
(Thereupon at 1215 a recess was taken until 1330 p.m.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed, Dr. Tipp.
Q. Herr, Korbe, before the noon recess we had stopped when we discussed the Pisac, and you told us that you had two villages of Pisac in your area, one of the villages near Drezcnica you have already described to us, and the other village Pisac was located in the area of Gospic. When you described these villages and conditions there we had stopped, and I would now like you to continue.
A. I discussed the operation which we carried cut as a large Ustasha mission north of Gospic. This led to the liberation of that area. I would like to emphasize particularly that the area in which Pisac was located was the original area of the Croatian 15th Division, and that under normal circumstances when there were no particular operations which made our interference necessary, we had a border line between us and the Croatian units. This border line ran approximately 20 kilometers north of Gospic to the East. I would like to state that the responsibility far that area was directly in the hands of the Croatian authorities, the military authorities as well as the state authorities. I know that Ustasha, at that time had, in the valley where Pisac is located, burned down quite a few farms. I did not see them burn, out I know it very well because the 35th band Division stored their ammunition and equipment, which they get from the British there. This was about 5 kilometers Northeast of Pisac, and a British airfield was located there, and we eliminated this airfield through our operations, and made further use impossible. I cannot give any opinion for actions of the Ustasha units, and I know that my division was humane, and put humanity far above the laws of war. Since General von Leyser, as I have already stated, had in early spring 1944 taken his leave from the 15th Corps, he could only be made responsible for the destruction that had taken place in the proceeding term before the summer of 1944, during which time up to the date when he left us only this one operation took place.
When I returned from my furlough, and after that operation had been concluded, whether the 15th Croatian division carried out any further operations in this area I do not know. In order to make the facts quite clear: since the bands hid their munitions and guns in these houses, these people exposed their own relatives to great danger.
Q. Witness, one question in this connection, in order to clarify the facts this morning, and now again you were talking about band divisions; now, for instance, you mentioned the 35th Band Division. may I ask you in this connection whether this so-called division was a regular troop division, let me say as the term is applied by the American or British, or by the German armed forces, and if not, what kind of a unit do these band divisions represent?
A. They were so-called large bands, a unit of parts of the population, and which were hospitable towards us and they themselves mentioned these names and designated themselves by these names. We captured many enemy documents and took over the terms used by the enemy, without in this way in any way wanting to attach any importance under International Law to this term. We just called them by these names, and we all knew what we meant by these names.
Q. One further question to clarify a problem which we discussed this morning. You mentioned the Cetnik unit of Major Erremic. You said that major Erremic had, with a number of people, deserted from the partisans. You also told us that this particular unit wore uniforms which were all the same. I believe you said they were olivegreen in color, and they had the Serbian double-eagle on their cap. I would like to know from you now whether this group of Erremic's arrived dressed. like that from the partisans, from the other side to the German side, and if not what was it you wanted to stress with this description?
A. All I wanted to do was to designate the uniform which they wore when they fought with us. When they arrived with our troops they did not yet wear that uniform.
To the best of my recollection they got this uniform from another district. I don't know whether it was from the district of somewhere near Fiume, that is possible. The double-eagle with a crown, which represented a sign of loyalty to royalty, that, of course, they could never wear as long as they fought amongst the ranks of the partisans. That would be the same as if we wore on our helmet the badge of the hammer and Sickel.
Q. As I understand you, what you said, is that the uniforms of the Erremic detachments were only established when this unit had already become part of the Croatian state unit?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, let's turn back, witness, to the four villages in the area of Brezenica. I believe I understood you correctly, and it did snow it on the map, that the large village of Pisac was outside that area?
A. Yes, considerable so.
Q. Now, before we start discussing the documents which were submitted by the Prosecution concerning this area of Drezcnica, I would like to ask if there is anything you want to say on your own as to this count of the indictment, quite generally speaking?
A. Yes, in order to shed light on the actions of my division you might be interested in two personal experiences of mine. Both of these I had to the best of my recollection on 13 July 1944. During the recapture of the area of Drezcnica, from which in the preceding night our own occupation troops had been driven, and since no one officer had been in a position I myself went there by Volkswagon and started the ground attack when the ground attack was proceeding, and when we were under enemy machine gun fire, I shortly went back to see whether my Volkswagon was protected against enemy machine gun fire. At that moment, from a very near distance, a bullet passed my head at very close range. I turned around immediately and saw a civilian with his rifle disappearing behind the bushes. This man was obviously a partisan. I had no time or inclination to occupy myself with this individual murderer, as I might call him, and went back to the Front.
After the attack was well under way, we advanced along the road in a small armored truck. Suddenly, a vehicle immediately in front of the house struck a mine. That was one-and-a-half kilometers south of Drezcnica. We were all flung out of the car. The vehicle was severely damaged and immediately behind the house in a cellar hole, the whole partisan family was assembled. It could be quite obviously assumed that they knew all about these things because, with six or ten detonators which were dispersed all over the road, these mines had been equipped so that even the children of this house if they would leave the house would have brought these detonators to an explosion.
We did not take any measures against these people, although we knew that they were in immediate connection with the partisans. We continued to carry out our duties in defeating the enemy. I am only giving this example in order to illuminate how very difficult cur situation was at the time and how we had neither time nor inclination to take revenge against this, in the final analysis, helpless population; but they were entirely in the wrong, after all, but we were not. Therefore, I am shocked and disgusted that the Yugoslavs, after all this time, face us with an account such as is laid down in the indictment which, after all, is known all over the world. The thanks for our attitude down there today is that we are marked as murderers. I object and defend myself against this indictment and I am here above all to represent the honor of my division and the honor of my commanding general and defend it.
Q Herr Kobe, we now turn to the document which was submitted by the Prosecution in connection with the problem of Drezcnica. What we received in connection with this problem from the Prosecution is relatively little and it was quite difficult on the basis of the decument to get a, proper impression of the conditions, all the more so because only the name of Drezcnica is mentioned in the document, although four villages are mentioned but not by name.
I would like you, therefore, to tell the Tribunal on which oc casion your division entered this area for the first time and what the.
purpose of that operation was.
A. That was towards the end of January, 1944, when we fought for that whole area and freed it, which we had occupied before. We then sent a combat unit down there and our main line ran along the Gresse Capella where we encountered the 13th band Division and faced them in battle. Also we wanted to secure those arms and equipment of which we had gained knowledge in that area.
A Was that operation carried out only by a combat group of your division or were parts of any other division involved in this, Herr Kobe?
A. Yes, the 114th Rifle Division came from the South on the way through and sent us another task force via Drezcnica.
Q. If I understood you correctly, you said that this operation took place during the middle towards the end of January, 1944. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you please tell us whether this operation was carried out under a certain cover name?
A. Yes, really all these operations had cover names. It is possible that this operation, because it took place near Drezcnica, had the cover name Drezcnica.
Q Where this so-called operation Drezcnica is concerned, the Prosecution submitted a few documents which I would like to discuss with you in order to clarify the count of indictment concerned here against General von Leyser. I first of all have Document Book XXV of the Prosecution shown to you, and I would like you to look there at Document NOKW-1770; this is Prosecution Exhibit 566. The document which I mean is on page 47 of the English text, which is page 37 of your Document Book XXV. Have you got the document in front of you, Herr Kobe?
A. Yes.
Q May I ask you then to tell the Tribunal what kind of a document this is?
A. Now do you mean by this question-what kind of a document it is?
Q. what I mean is what does the document which you have in front of you represent?
A. It seems to be a report or rather a draft of a report from the corps to the army. It says here "Final report Drezcnica."
Q Will you tell us please, witness, what units are mentioned in this report?
A. The 392nd Division is mentioned here, which is my division, and the 114th Rifle Division.
Q. Then I would like you to give us your comments on the entry concerning the 392nd Division.
A. At that time, we had made thirty-four prisoners which might be important here and apart from that sixteen partisans deserted and came to us. Furthermore, we had captured quite some booty and we also suffered some losses.
Q. Since you know that area from your own observation, it might be important that you give us some comments to the entry which concerned the 114th Rifle Division.
A. The 114th Rifle division has destroyed twenty bandit quarters there. Those bandit quarters to the best of my knowledge were huts which the-enemy had constructed outside of Drezcnica because Drezcnica itself did no longer represent any accommodation. These men built huts or very small shelters for their own accommodation. These bandit quarters could not be constructed in Drezcnica itself because there was no room in that place but it had to be done outside of the valley which belonged to the community of Drezcnica. These quarters were apparently destroyed just in the same way as the enemy destroyed our own quarters, as for instance the one on the Capella Pass during attacks.
Q. In this document, as far as the 114th Rifle division is touched upon, it is mentioned the destruction of a military hospital in Moshune. It says here "In Moshune, a military hospital with fifty beds destroyed." do you know that locality from your own observation, Herr Kobe?
A I was in that area and I was about three kilometers away from Moshune along, the street but I know quite well how things looked there. Moshune was merely a spot on the map. In actual fact, it was just a wood clearing, and the enemy had there a telephone communication post and a small ammunition depot as we established later on from captured documents. This alleged hospital with fifty beds was nothing but an accommodation hut, and the enemy conducted his operations from there along the coastal road between Senj and Gobite where, for instance, he murdered our Croatian District Councillor while he passed along that highway. The destruction of that hut was a necessary measure in order to make it difficult for the enemy to gain foot in that area. The actual hospitals of the enemy were located considerably further to the north in Lorski--Kupa where there were hotels and hospitals and all these were not damaged in any way.
Furthermore, the 114th Rifle division did net arrive at Moshune during surprise action. Instead, the read which led there had constantly been blocked by tree blocks. The enemy did not use this highway at all; they used their own path. Therefore, one must by no means imagine that the 114th Rifle Division broke into a modern hospital and killed all patients there. Nobody was left when the division got there.
Q Perhaps it would be possible for you to clear up for us, Herr Kobo, why the troop particularly mentions here the destruction of a hospital if in actual fact, if I follow your testimony correctly, this was merely a band quarters?
A Of course I can't interpret under oath in detail what my colleagues with the 114th Rifle Division meant when they put down that a hospital was destroyed. They probably wanted to express that the division had encountered an enemy depot -- which was the actual fact. The munition dump was at that time not found by the 119th Rifle Division and we cleared it up at a later date.
Q I would now like you to turn up page 39 in your document book 5 which is page 30 in the English text. Here you will find Document NOKW1772 of the prosecution which has been submitted by the prosecution as Exhibit 570. On the first page of the document, you have a supplementary report to a daily report of the XV Mountain Corps dated the 9th of February, 1944. After the heading, it gives in this report the concluding report on the operation Drezenica. Can you compare the document which we have just discussed and this one here and tell us whether these are two different reports of facts or whether the same facts form the basis of both reports?
A No, the reports refer to the same facts. The second is a summary of the whole combat actions and it is a concluding report.
Q From this last document, Herr Kobe, on page 39 of the German and 50 of the English text, there is one point which might be of interest. In this report, there are mentioned quite a number of booty, military equipment, munition and arms. It is quite obvious that this is not property of the civilian population but it also mentioned sixty boxes of matches and 10 hundred weights of salt. Those things could be property of the civilian population of that area and possibly the prosecution wanted a document with this particular point that the troops there plundered the civilian population. Can you from your own knowledge give us your comments on this point?
A Yes. These things were kept together in depots, together with the munition by the bandits and hidden from the civilian population. The matches and the sulphur were property of the Creatian state. They were a state monopoly. The match factory in Vrbobsko and the Croatian Besac mine of Tar and the partisans had hidden these things there after they had robbed them from the Croatian states.
Q How do you mean for these purposes?
A I mean for the purposes of the partisans.
Q One further point is mentioned in this document which might apply to civilian property. There is a report hero about tho destruction of a printing press. One might think hero that this is purely civilian property which was destroyed. Could you possibly toll us something from your own knowledge about this destruction too?
A Yes. There were no other printing shops in this district but the enemy had a few printing machines which could be packed in boxes and he had them hidden there and thus he could produce leaflets in order to incite the population to fight against us and he did that constantly. We realized the importance of those printing shops very soon and we endeavored energetically to, as soon as possible, get these transportable printing presses into our own hands in order to avoid that the enemy could again and again incite the population to fight against us. Eventually, we achieved our aim and we seized all tho printing shops worked by the enemy in that district and thus we achieved that; quite soon in that area there was comparative peace and order.
Q You have mentioned quite a lot of booty on tho occasion of this operation. Herr Kobe can you now toll us where these stocks came from -- mainly tho stocks of arms and munition which are mentioned here?
A That was only a small part of the total booty which was available in that whole area. It was all Italian army property which, when the Italians capitulated, fell into the hands of the bands.
Q This operation Drezcnicz which you have mentioned we might leave now, Herr Kobe and I would like to ask you to turn to another document. I will have Document Book XVI of the prosecution shown to you and I would like to ask you to turn up page 124 in your document book which is page 82 in the English document book. Here you will find a daily report of the XV Mountain Corps dated the 22nd of April, 1944. This is prosecution Exhibit 389, Document N0KW-1416. Under your division, there is an operation "Koulenschlag" mentioned in this report which apparently also took place around the area of Drozonica. Can you remember this operation Koulenschlag?
A I remember this operation quite well because it was one of our most successful operations of all. During the first operation Dreznica which we just discussed, we had established that the total area around Dreznica of which Tusevic and Voivoda were parts -- these are the two other villages mentioned in the indictment ---- and all these places represented one big arms and ammunition depot. The enemy -- by this I mean the sc-called 13th Band Division -- used this area as a stronghold for their attacks and surprise attacks along our supply road which ran further South. We then decided to liberate that area, fight till it was free, and to hold it in order to achieve peace and order along our supply lines and thus drive the enemy off. When we came into the area South of Brenj, which is near this area, we found out that the population by way of slave labour had to bring up enormous amounts of arms and ammunition to these mountainous villages and there the partisans took these arms and equipment away from the population and hid them. Of course, rumors had started circulating which by far exaggerated these factual reports. They said that steel shelters had been built there and the enemy allegedly received constant reinforcements through parachutes from the British and according to one message even a golden treasure was supposed to have been hidden there, of Tito's.
When we started this operation and in severe battle defeated the 13th Band Division, we found out that in every single one of those villages almost in every single house, there was a large or small ammunition depot of infantry ammunition, of machine guns and machine pistols. In the small mills which were there, they had hidden the ammunition between and under the millstones; even in a cemetery they had dug a fresh grave and when we found out that nobody had died there and investigated the grave, we found a largo depot of ammunition and motor vehicle spare parts of Italian trucks. Behind this area, there were the largo woods of the Miscovica. The enemy had hidden that type of ammunition there, which was not as sensitive and also guns, motor vehicles as far as they worked, etc. and they there hid these instruments from the civilian population and camouflaged them in a masterly manner. Also, the enemy built there, to a considerable extent, small accommodation huts, It is quite clear from the report that these huts were just in the process of being built because it said in the report that we captured sixty loads of timber. The population of this district had hidden in the woods but after they found out that we were quite harmless people, they came back on the very same day and moved back into their own houses. I would like to make it clear again that we could have simply regarded those villages and houses or at the least those where ammunition was stored as ammunition depots and exploded them, but we did not do that.
Q One additional question to this report about the operation Keculenschlag. Here again under the booty you find a hundred bags of salt, several cases of cigarettes, and cigars, matches. How about this booty. HerrKobe? Was that something which the troops had taken away from the civilian population or if not where did these stocks come from?