Do you know anything about transports of Jewish people from Athens?
A. In cattle cars many people were put in, in a way that they could hardly stand. There was no room for them to sit down and in that way, in those closed wagons, which only had small holes for breathing, they were transported out of Athens. I personally say many trains loaded with such a burden.
BY JUDGE BURKE:
Q. Will you repeat the answer?
A. I personally saw many trains loaded with such human burden.
Q. Human burden?
A. Human burden, yes.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Do you mean cargo, Dr.?
A. Yes.
MR. DENNEY: He means cargo, Your Honor.
Q. How big was the concentration camp of which you have spoken?
A. This concentration camp was used as a barracks before the war. When the Germans came, it was unused so they took it over and used it as a concentration camp. The area, the whole area of this camp, is about approximately as big as this court house.
Q. And when you say the court house, you mean the whole court house, you don't mean this little room?
A. Certainly.
Q. How many inmates could the camp accommodate?
A. It contained between 2,000 and 3,000 people but it could contain many more.
Q. What were the inmates used for?
A. Forced labor, and others were imprisoned there. From that concentration camp the hostages who were to be shot were taken, and from that concentration camp they used to take people and send them to Germany for forced labor and the contents of this concentration camp were usually renewed when it began to get empty.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I have no further questions. Perhaps defense counsel might like to start cross examination tomorrow in view of the shortness of time remaining here.
THE PRESIDENT: Would you prefer that your cross examination commence tomorrow morning, Dr. Laternser?
DR. LATERNSER: May I put a few questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Witness, could you describe to me this court of law in which you are present: how many wings it has, etc.; how many floors?
MR. DENNEY: I submit, Your Honors, the question is immaterial. He said the concentration camp covers about the same area as this whole court building.
THE PRESIDENT: Overruled.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Witness, would you kindly describe this to me? We have to have this description by half past four. How many wings has this court house got?
A. The building or this room?
Q. You were comparing the concentration camp, the alleged concentration camp, with this court house, and you said that it had been at least as large as this building. For you to say that you must know the size of this building. How many wings has this building got?
A. I do not know the length or the width of the space that is covered by this court house. I never spoke about this building or the wings or whatever else of this court house. I only said that the concentration camp was about the dimension of the grounds of this court house.
Q. How long do you estimate this building in which you find yourself now; how long in distance?
A. I cannot tell you how many meters it is long or wide but particularly what I saw of it I can say it was approximately the same as that of the concentration camp.
Q. If you make comparisons, you should know this building in more detail. How many rooms approximately does this court house contain?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I submit that the witness has made the comparison and I might know Dr. Laternser is as tall as Dr. Sauter or shorter, and I might not know how tall Dr. Sauter is or how tall Dr. Laternser is, and I don't think he should be allowed to argue with the witness.
DR. LATERNSER: I did not argue with the witness. I put very precise questions to him.
Q. I repeat my question. How many wings has this court house got?
A. I have never counted them.
Q. How many floors has this court house got?
A. I never counted them because it was of no interest to me.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be adjourned at chis time until 0930 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 15 August 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Wilhelm List, et al, defendants sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 15 August 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Carter, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
May it please your Honors, all defendants are present in the court room.
The persons in the court room will be seated.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Marshal, will you ascertain, if all the defendants are present in the courtroom?
MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor all the defendants are present in the courtroom.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Judge Edward F. Carter will preside at this day's session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed, Mr. Denney:
MR. DENNEY: I believe at the conclusion of yesterday's session Dr. Laternser was cross-examining the witness.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Dr. Laternser.
NICHOLAS NERIS - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Witness, you said yesterday that from 1940 on you were Deputy Chief of Police in Athens. Until when were you in that office?
A. Approximately six months after the entry of the German troops to Athens.
Q. And when was that? When did the six months come to an end as far as the date is concerned?
A. I don't remember the exact date.
Q. If you don't know the exact date may I ask you to give me the approximate date?
A. When the Germans entered Athens, the Chief of the Police resigned and Mr. Vassilopulos became Chief of the Police. With him I became Chief of Staff of Mr. Vassilopulos.
Q. I asked you for the approximate date when you gave up this office?
A. I can't exactly remember the date.
Q. I did not ask for the exact date but for the approximate date?
A. I can't remember exactly those dates because I was serving in Athens as Deputy Director of the Police and as Chief of Staff of the Police. I was all the time there.
Q. If you say the whole time, what do you mean by that?
A. I mean that during all this period I was in Athens.
Q. When you left the office of Deputy Police what did you become then?
A. Chief of Staff of the Chief of Police.
Q. And from which time to which time did you hold this position?
A. As I said yesterday approximately one year and a half.
Q. Into which period of time do these 18 months fall as regards dates.
A. I cannot remember by heart these dates. If I knew it would have been so important to you I would have made a certificate and show it to you; if I would tell you now it wouldn't be the correct dates.
Q. Witness, I mean the time in which you were Deputy of the Chief of Police in Athens and Chief of Staff of the Police Corps. That must have been experiences in your life that this should cause you to remember the approximate dates. I, therefore, ask you for the approximate dates for the period of time in which you were Chief of Staff of a Police Corps?
A. He wants to help you as much as he can but he cannot remember even approximately these dates.
Q. You can't even approximately remember these dates in order to make this quite clear?
A. He cannot because if he tried to do it may not be the truth.
Q. You want to say then that you know neither the exact date nor the approximate date of the time during which you were Deputy Chief of Police in Athens, and of the time during which you were Chief of Staff of the Chief of Police. Do you really want to say that.
A. I don't remember the exact date.
Q. My question is whether you want to say that you don't even remember the approximate date?
A. During 6 months after the entry of the German troops in Athens he was Deputy Chief of the Police and after this 6 months he was one year and a half Chief of Staff of the Chief of the Police. It would be very easy to give you the precise dates if he knew you would have been so interested in them.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Might I suggest to the interpreter that he answer in the first person just as the witness does. Do you understand what I mean?
DR. DIMITRIOS: Yes, your Honor.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. When did the German troops leave Greece?
A. The German troops left Athens on the 12th of October 1944.
Q. And what office did you occupy after the withdrawal of the German troops?
A. I was the Director of the Air Raid Protection.
Q. After the withdrawal of the German troops did you not occupy another office? I assume as Director of Air Raid Precaution, after the withdrawal of the German troops, you didn't have much to do.
A. Yes, after the withdrawal of the Germans I had another job.
Q. And what was this position?
A. I was Director of the Police section of the Ministry of the Interior.
Q. One thing, witness, is correct, that during the German occupation you were for a longer period of time Deputy Chief of Police and Chief of Staff of the Chief of Police.
DR. DIMITRIOS: I didn't get the question.
Q. One thing is true, witness, you were during the German occupation Deputy Chief of Police and Chief of Staff of the Chief of Police.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I object to the form of Dr. Laternser's question.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
DR. LATERNSER: I believe that the translation of my question sounded perhaps a bit different in English, as I put it in German.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q I asked, as far as I remember, that one thing is true, witness, that during the occupation you filled the office of the Deputy Chief of Police and the other one, the meaning of which as the Prosecutor sees it is not contained in the German feeling for language. It may be that this meaning came out in the translation. I cannot judge that.
MR. DENNEY: He has stated facts; I don't think he has to preface them with the remark he has again made.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You might ask another question, Dr. Laternser.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, is it correct that during the time of the German occupation you were Deputy Chief of Police in Athens and later Chief of Staff of the Police Corps; the main meaning of this question lies in the fact that you occupied these offices during the time of occupation.
A Yes, it is quite true.
Q Witness, when did you arrive at Nuernberg?
A I left Athens last Sunday morning and got to Nuernberg last Monday afternoon.
Q Did you come by train?
A I came by plane.
Q Why didn't you come by train? Are there no trains in Greece?
A There are no trains coming direct from Greece here.
Q Is there no train service between Greece in the direction of Germany?
MR. DENNEY: The witness hasn't been qualified as a railroad expert.
DR. LATERNSER: You don't need to have an expert. One can know that without being an expert.
A There are no trains connecting Greece with Germany nowadays, but I received an order from the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs to travel on that plane.
Q Where are you living at present in Nuernberg?
A I live now at the Grand Hotel.
Q Is that a German hotel?
A Well, it is a German hotel but where only Americans are living.
Q Was that hotel confiscated from the Germans?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors please, I don't think the witness is competent to testify as to whether the Americans confiscated something or not.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think the objection is good; sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q When did the Germans enter Greece?
A They entered into Athens on the 27th of April 1941.
Q Was Greece not only occupied by German troops but also by Italian troops?
A I know that at that precise date only German troops came into Athens.
Q How was it in the time after that? Who occupied Greece?
AAt that time we were like slaves and we didn't know what happened to the rest of Greece but at that precise date only German troops came into Athens.
Q I did not now ask you for the exact date but I am asking you who kept Greece occupied, during the time in which it was occupied at all.
A Not only German troops but Bulgarian troops and Italian troops used to occupy different territories of Greece.
Q Witness, which part of the country was occupied by German troops and which part of the country was occupied by Italian troops?
A I cannot tell you exactly which parts were occupied by each of the two enemy forces but the only thing I tell you is that the Italians were brought in by the Germans as their satellites.
Q Witness, apparently you don't know many things quite clearly and for that reason I don't ask you quite definitely. But I want to know some things approximately which as the then chief of Police you ought to know, and for that reason I want to know which part of the country was occupied by German troops and which part was occupied by Italian troops?
A I don't know.
Q Do you say witness, that you as deputy Chief of Police of Athens, do not know which parts of Greece were occupied by the Germans and which part of Greece was occupied by the Italian troops?
A If I don't know something extremely well I cannot give an answer to it.
Q And if you don't know something exactly I ask you in what area were the zones in Greece, the Italian zones and German zones?
A Well, that is what you asked me before and I told you I don't know it precisely.
Q Witness, who was in Southern Greece, German or Italian troops?
A I was always in Athens during that period and in the beginning only the Germans troops came, but later on they were followed by Italian troops.
Q You just mentioned Athens. Under whose military command was Athens, under the German Command or the Italian Command?
A The German
Q Witness, and I am telling you that it stood under Italian command?
MR. DENNEY: If your Honor, please, I think that the witness is testifying and not Dr. Laternser, and it is not shown that Dr. Laternser was in Athens in any capacity during this time.
JUDGE CARTER: Sustained.
Q Witness, that is you want to say that Athens was under German command?
A Yes, and the Italians were brought later on by the Germans in Athens.
Q When was that?
AAt first they made the big parade in which the Italians took part and after that parade the Italians disappeared and came later on.
Q What do you mean by later, when did they come back?
A I can't tell you the exact date, but sometime later General Gelosa came to Athens under the protection of the Germans.
Q And at any time did Athens pass from German sovereignty to Italian sovereignty?
A Yes.
Q From that time onwards Athens was under Italian command?
A I don't know the exact date, but I can testify that the Germans always stayed in Athens.
Q Witness, I want to recall to you that you said that you were Deputy Chief of Police in Athens, you simply must know that from a certain period onwards Athens was under the military command of the Italians?
A I repeat that I don't remember the exact date, but I can tell you that the Italians were in the same position as us Greeks, that is to say that they were under the hands of the Germans and obeyed their orders.
Q I did not ask you of the position of the Italians, I asked you quite clearly whether Athens was at any time under the military command of the Italians?
A Yes, under Andreas Akropolis, a big German and a smaller Italian, and a Greek one.
Q Under a Greek one?
A Yes, I told you so.
Q That is to say, witness, it is correct that Athens was at a certain time under Italian command, you have just confirmed that?
A Yes, I know.
Q Now, we want to try, witness, and I am asking you to help me here to fix the period of time during which that applied; you said that from the time of the occupation onwards you were approximately for 6 months Deputy Chief of Police in Athens: During your activity there were there any changes in the command, that is to say that the Italians had the Military command of Athens during your period of office?
AAt the beginning only the Germans were in the military command of Athens; later on they brought the Italians with them, but the Germans still stayed in Athens.
Q Witness, I grant you that there were some German Departments, but what is of interest to me in this case is, who carried out the Military sovereignty in Athens at that time, and I am asking you whether during your period of office as Deputy Chief of Police in Athens the command passed from the German Agencies to the Italian agencies?
A There was a difficult date of transfer of the command of Athens from the Germans to the Italians, but I do not remember it, but I say again although the Italians had taken over the command of Athens they still obeyed the orders of the Germans. That is not known only to me, but to every single person in Greece.
Q Witness, I only want to ask you things that you know; have I understood you correctly now, that you are confirming the fact that during your period of office as Deputy Chief of Police in Athens the command was transferred to the Italian offices at least as far as the City of Athens was concerned?
A It was transferred to the Italians, but I repeat again it was only technically transferred to them.
Q And all during your period of office as Deputy Chief of Police - this transfer took place during your period of office as Deputy Chief of Police?
A Yes.
Q Since you were Deputy Chief of Police from the occupation onwards for 6 months, you said then this command must have been transferred shortly after the occupation became certain, from the year 1941?
A The transfer was not made at the beginning of the entry of the Germans into Athens, but a little bit later on.
The Italians could not stay for a single day in Athens if the Germans had not stabilized their position there.
Q You are certain then that the Military command of Athens was transferred shortly after the invasion of the troops; I repeat, you said that the transfer of the transfer of the Military command from the Germans to the Italians, as far as the area of Athens is concerned, took place a little time after Germans marched into Athens, but certainly during the year 1941, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember that it was already in June 1941?
A I cannot remember exactly in what month that took place.
Q Is it possible it had already taken place in June 1941?
A I tell you I cannot decide the date, but I know that when the Germans came and fixed everything, they took everything for themselves, then they allowed the Italians to come into the country.
Q Witness, as Deputy Chief of Police in Athens you surely had to deal with the occupation authorities?
A On very rare occasions I had to deal with them.
Q Could you name a few of these occasions?
A I can tell you about the time when the German flag was pulled down from the Akropolis.
Q No, I am now referring to the time during which you were Deputy Chief of Police in Athens, that was the first six months after your occupation, as you said yourself I am now asking you with whom you dealt with during these first six months, with which Italian departments you had to cooperate?
A I had no relations whatever with the Italians.
Q The Italians showed no interest in your position as Deputy Chief of Police of Athens, is that right?
A Because they had the backing of the Germans and they were quite brutal on that.
Q Witness, I am asking you quite clearly, during your period of office as Deputy Chief of Police in Athens did you never negotiate with Italian agencies?
A No.
Q You never had any dealings with an Italian officer?
A What sort of dealings?
Q. Negotiations which concerned your sphere of work which were carried out by the police in Athens?
A. Those dealings were made by the chief of police, by the director of the police. I was the deputy of the chief.
Q. I am asking you, witness, quite clearly, whether you personally never in your capacity as deputy chief of police in Athens ever talked with the Italian officers.
A. I had no dealings whatever with the Italians; only the chief of police and director of police had to do these dealings. I had no competence.
Q. What field was within your competence?
A. I tried to perform my police duties, which was rather shadowy at that time.
Q. Witness, the starting point of my questions I asked by whom Athens was occupied and I am now asking you to answer this question.
A. At the beginning, at the first beginning Athens was occupied only by the Germans, and later on the Italians came in until the capitulation of Italy in 1943. At that time the Germans arrested all the Italians and they kept them as prisoners.
Q. By far the greatest time of the occupation, during the greatest time of the occupation, Athens was occupied by the Italians then?
A. Yes, in 1942 and the early part of 1943 until the Italian capitulation.
Q. Witness, this is not clear enough for me. You said previously that the command was transferred from the Germans to the Italians even during the time which you were deputy chief of police, and it must have been 1941 then.
A. I say that the Italians were there in 1942 and the early part of 1943 until the Italian capitulation.
Q. Wasn't it already in June 1941? Please reflect for a moment and then give me your answer.
A. I don't remember the exact date of the difficult transfer of the command of Athens.
Q. Is it out of the question, witness, that it was already in 1941?
A. I don't deny it may be possible that that happened in 1941.
Q. Thank you. That is sufficient for me at this juncture. Witness, you know that the Greek Army capitulated?
A. The Greek Government never capitulated.
Q. Who signed the conditions of capitulation?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know, although you occupied such a high office?
A. I know that some Greek generals signed an armistice which was never recognized by the official Greek Government, and later on some of these quisling generals became ministers and prime ministers.
Q. One of the generals who signed became a minister later on in which government?
A. I can testify that the first quisling prime minister was a General (name unintelligible), and he had as ministers some other generals called Marko Demestias.
Q. How was it after the capitulation? Were not all Greek soldiers at that time at once released from captivity?
A. I repeat that the Greek Government never capitulated, but the Greek Army was dissolved.
Q. Another question. Where was the Greek Government at that time, within or outside the country?
A. At that time of the capitulation the Greek Government was in Athens in the hotel of the Grand Britannia.
Q. The Greek Government was inside the country at the time of the capitulation, is that right?
A. The Greek Government was in Athens at that time.
Q. Do you really want to testify to that under oath?
A. One Friday evening the two last Greek ministers left Athens, and two days later, that is to say, on Sunday, the German troops came into Athens.
Q. Witness, you are evading me a bit. I must say that. I asked you whether during the time of the capitulation, as you said before, whether during that time the Greek Government was in Athens.
A. Well, I do not recognize this capitulation and I don't know when that happened. The Greek government was inside Athens two days before the Germans came into Athens.
Q. Now, you say two days before the Germans entered Athens. A short time ago you said that the Greek government was in Athens during the time of the capitulation. There is a bit of difference. How was it now?
A. I was in Athens and I could not know what happened in the front, so I cannot toll you the exact day of the capitulation.
Q. Witness, first you tell me that the Greek government was in Athens during the time of the capitulation, and then you tell me that the Greek Government was in Athens two days before the capitulation, and now you are telling me that you don't know when the capitulation took place. I want a clear answer now to a clear question.
During the time of the capitulation, was the Greek government inside the country or outside the country, or don't you know?
A. I don't know the date of the capitulation. I told you that the two last members of the Greek government left Athens two days before the entrance of the German troops -not the capitulation, the entrance of the German troops in Athens.
Q. The result, then, is that you say that two days before the capitulation a few members of the Greek government were still in Athens. Is that correct?
A. I repeat again that two days before the entry of the Germans, not the capitulation, as I said before; two days before the entrance of the Germans in Athens the members of the Greek government were there -- that is on Friday, and the Germans came in on Sunday.
Q. Where was the government later on?
A. (Switch not turned on)...... and later on, after Greece was taken by the Germans, it was transferred to a foreign country.
Q. And which country was that?
A. Egypt.
Q. Witness, after the capitulation were the Greek soldiers released at once from captivity by the German armed forces?
A. The Greek soldiers were returning to Athens.
Q. That is not an answer to my question. I asked you whether it is correct that the German armed forces released the Greek soldiers, all of them, immediately after the capitulation.
A. I don't know. The generals may know it better than me.
Q. Witness, you certainly have a number of acquaintances who had been soldiers. Is that correct?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. They soon came home?
A. Yes, they did come back.
Q. Among your acquaintances did you know any officers?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Did they not tell you that they could still carry arms?
A. Yes, against the Italians, of course, we could.
Q. Shortly after the occupation was there not an order by Marshal List published in which the following was said:
"You may" -- and this means the German troops -- "You may be very proud of this decisive success, since you gained it in a hard fight against English troops and against the Greeks who so bravely defended their country."
"You may be very proud, indeed, regarding this decisive success since you gained it in a hard fight against British troops and against the Greeks who bravely defended their country."
And there is a further sentence: "You will treat the Greek prisoners in such a manner and thus deal with them as they deserve it, as brave soldiers."
Don't you remember that shortly after the occupation an order of this kind was published?
A. This order was addressed to the German troops.
Q. But it was also made public. Don't you remember that?
A. I know that the Germans particularly recognized the heroism of the Greeks and they believed that this recognition would be more satisfactory towards the Greeks; but, unfortunately, the opposite thing happened towards these heroic warriors. When the Germans came in Athens they threw them away.
Q. Just a minute. I didn't ask you regarding this question. We will deal with this later on in detail. I am only asking you, do you remember that an order of this kind was published and was made public in Greece? That is the only thing I want to know at this moment.
A. I don't know about this order. The only thing I know is that the Germans recognized the heroic resistance of the Greek army.
Q. Witness, yesterday you said something about the great difficulties regarding the food situation during the time of the occupation which cannot be denied in the whole extent. Now, you had at that time ration cards for food?
A. We had ration books for bread at the beginning and later on for other food also.