Q Witness, and I am telling you that it stood under Italian command?
MR. DENNEY: If your Honor, please, I think that the witness is testifying and not Dr. Laternser, and it is not shown that Dr. Laternser was in Athens in any capacity during this time.
JUDGE CARTER: Sustained.
Q Witness, that is you want to say that Athens was under German command?
A Yes, and the Italians were brought later on by the Germans in Athens.
Q When was that?
AAt first they made the big parade in which the Italians took part and after that parade the Italians disappeared and came later on.
Q What do you mean by later, when did they come back?
A I can't tell you the exact date, but sometime later General Gelosa came to Athens under the protection of the Germans.
Q And at any time did Athens pass from German sovereignty to Italian sovereignty?
A Yes.
Q From that time onwards Athens was under Italian command?
A I don't know the exact date, but I can testify that the Germans always stayed in Athens.
Q Witness, I want to recall to you that you said that you were Deputy Chief of Police in Athens, you simply must know that from a certain period onwards Athens was under the military command of the Italians?
A I repeat that I don't remember the exact date, but I can tell you that the Italians were in the same position as us Greeks, that is to say that they were under the hands of the Germans and obeyed their orders.
Q I did not ask you of the position of the Italians, I asked you quite clearly whether Athens was at any time under the military command of the Italians?
A Yes, under Andreas Akropolis, a big German and a smaller Italian, and a Greek one.
Q Under a Greek one?
A Yes, I told you so.
Q That is to say, witness, it is correct that Athens was at a certain time under Italian command, you have just confirmed that?
A Yes, I know.
Q Now, we want to try, witness, and I am asking you to help me here to fix the period of time during which that applied; you said that from the time of the occupation onwards you were approximately for 6 months Deputy Chief of Police in Athens: During your activity there were there any changes in the command, that is to say that the Italians had the Military command of Athens during your period of office?
AAt the beginning only the Germans were in the military command of Athens; later on they brought the Italians with them, but the Germans still stayed in Athens.
Q Witness, I grant you that there were some German Departments, but what is of interest to me in this case is, who carried out the Military sovereignty in Athens at that time, and I am asking you whether during your period of office as Deputy Chief of Police in Athens the command passed from the German Agencies to the Italian agencies?
A There was a difficult date of transfer of the command of Athens from the Germans to the Italians, but I do not remember it, but I say again although the Italians had taken over the command of Athens they still obeyed the orders of the Germans. That is not known only to me, but to every single person in Greece.
Q Witness, I only want to ask you things that you know; have I understood you correctly now, that you are confirming the fact that during your period of office as Deputy Chief of Police in Athens the command was transferred to the Italian offices at least as far as the City of Athens was concerned?
A It was transferred to the Italians, but I repeat again it was only technically transferred to them.
Q And all during your period of office as Deputy Chief of Police - this transfer took place during your period of office as Deputy Chief of Police?
A Yes.
Q Since you were Deputy Chief of Police from the occupation onwards for 6 months, you said then this command must have been transferred shortly after the occupation became certain, from the year 1941?
A The transfer was not made at the beginning of the entry of the Germans into Athens, but a little bit later on.
The Italians could not stay for a single day in Athens if the Germans had not stabilized their position there.
Q You are certain then that the Military command of Athens was transferred shortly after the invasion of the troops; I repeat, you said that the transfer of the transfer of the Military command from the Germans to the Italians, as far as the area of Athens is concerned, took place a little time after Germans marched into Athens, but certainly during the year 1941, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember that it was already in June 1941?
A I cannot remember exactly in what month that took place.
Q Is it possible it had already taken place in June 1941?
A I tell you I cannot decide the date, but I know that when the Germans came and fixed everything, they took everything for themselves, then they allowed the Italians to come into the country.
Q Witness, as Deputy Chief of Police in Athens you surely had to deal with the occupation authorities?
A On very rare occasions I had to deal with them.
Q Could you name a few of these occasions?
A I can tell you about the time when the German flag was pulled down from the Akropolis.
Q No, I am now referring to the time during which you were Deputy Chief of Police in Athens, that was the first six months after your occupation, as you said yourself I am now asking you with whom you dealt with during these first six months, with which Italian departments you had to cooperate?
A I had no relations whatever with the Italians.
Q The Italians showed no interest in your position as Deputy Chief of Police of Athens, is that right?
A Because they had the backing of the Germans and they were quite brutal on that.
Q Witness, I am asking you quite clearly, during your period of office as Deputy Chief of Police in Athens did you never negotiate with Italian agencies?
A No.
Q You never had any dealings with an Italian officer?
A What sort of dealings?
Q. Negotiations which concerned your sphere of work which were carried out by the police in Athens?
A. Those dealings were made by the chief of police, by the director of the police. I was the deputy of the chief.
Q. I am asking you, witness, quite clearly, whether you personally never in your capacity as deputy chief of police in Athens ever talked with the Italian officers.
A. I had no dealings whatever with the Italians; only the chief of police and director of police had to do these dealings. I had no competence.
Q. What field was within your competence?
A. I tried to perform my police duties, which was rather shadowy at that time.
Q. Witness, the starting point of my questions I asked by whom Athens was occupied and I am now asking you to answer this question.
A. At the beginning, at the first beginning Athens was occupied only by the Germans, and later on the Italians came in until the capitulation of Italy in 1943. At that time the Germans arrested all the Italians and they kept them as prisoners.
Q. By far the greatest time of the occupation, during the greatest time of the occupation, Athens was occupied by the Italians then?
A. Yes, in 1942 and the early part of 1943 until the Italian capitulation.
Q. Witness, this is not clear enough for me. You said previously that the command was transferred from the Germans to the Italians even during the time which you were deputy chief of police, and it must have been 1941 then.
A. I say that the Italians were there in 1942 and the early part of 1943 until the Italian capitulation.
Q. Wasn't it already in June 1941? Please reflect for a moment and then give me your answer.
A. I don't remember the exact date of the difficult transfer of the command of Athens.
Q. Is it out of the question, witness, that it was already in 1941?
A. I don't deny it may be possible that that happened in 1941.
Q. Thank you. That is sufficient for me at this juncture. Witness, you know that the Greek Army capitulated?
A. The Greek Government never capitulated.
Q. Who signed the conditions of capitulation?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know, although you occupied such a high office?
A. I know that some Greek generals signed an armistice which was never recognized by the official Greek Government, and later on some of these quisling generals became ministers and prime ministers.
Q. One of the generals who signed became a minister later on in which government?
A. I can testify that the first quisling prime minister was a General (name unintelligible), and he had as ministers some other generals called Marko Demestias.
Q. How was it after the capitulation? Were not all Greek soldiers at that time at once released from captivity?
A. I repeat that the Greek Government never capitulated, but the Greek Army was dissolved.
Q. Another question. Where was the Greek Government at that time, within or outside the country?
A. At that time of the capitulation the Greek Government was in Athens in the hotel of the Grand Britannia.
Q. The Greek Government was inside the country at the time of the capitulation, is that right?
A. The Greek Government was in Athens at that time.
Q. Do you really want to testify to that under oath?
A. One Friday evening the two last Greek ministers left Athens, and two days later, that is to say, on Sunday, the German troops came into Athens.
Q. Witness, you are evading me a bit. I must say that. I asked you whether during the time of the capitulation, as you said before, whether during that time the Greek Government was in Athens.
A. Well, I do not recognize this capitulation and I don't know when that happened. The Greek government was inside Athens two days before the Germans came into Athens.
Q. Now, you say two days before the Germans entered Athens. A short time ago you said that the Greek government was in Athens during the time of the capitulation. There is a bit of difference. How was it now?
A. I was in Athens and I could not know what happened in the front, so I cannot toll you the exact day of the capitulation.
Q. Witness, first you tell me that the Greek government was in Athens during the time of the capitulation, and then you tell me that the Greek Government was in Athens two days before the capitulation, and now you are telling me that you don't know when the capitulation took place. I want a clear answer now to a clear question.
During the time of the capitulation, was the Greek government inside the country or outside the country, or don't you know?
A. I don't know the date of the capitulation. I told you that the two last members of the Greek government left Athens two days before the entrance of the German troops -not the capitulation, the entrance of the German troops in Athens.
Q. The result, then, is that you say that two days before the capitulation a few members of the Greek government were still in Athens. Is that correct?
A. I repeat again that two days before the entry of the Germans, not the capitulation, as I said before; two days before the entrance of the Germans in Athens the members of the Greek government were there -- that is on Friday, and the Germans came in on Sunday.
Q. Where was the government later on?
A. (Switch not turned on)...... and later on, after Greece was taken by the Germans, it was transferred to a foreign country.
Q. And which country was that?
A. Egypt.
Q. Witness, after the capitulation were the Greek soldiers released at once from captivity by the German armed forces?
A. The Greek soldiers were returning to Athens.
Q. That is not an answer to my question. I asked you whether it is correct that the German armed forces released the Greek soldiers, all of them, immediately after the capitulation.
A. I don't know. The generals may know it better than me.
Q. Witness, you certainly have a number of acquaintances who had been soldiers. Is that correct?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. They soon came home?
A. Yes, they did come back.
Q. Among your acquaintances did you know any officers?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Did they not tell you that they could still carry arms?
A. Yes, against the Italians, of course, we could.
Q. Shortly after the occupation was there not an order by Marshal List published in which the following was said:
"You may" -- and this means the German troops -- "You may be very proud of this decisive success, since you gained it in a hard fight against English troops and against the Greeks who so bravely defended their country."
"You may be very proud, indeed, regarding this decisive success since you gained it in a hard fight against British troops and against the Greeks who bravely defended their country."
And there is a further sentence: "You will treat the Greek prisoners in such a manner and thus deal with them as they deserve it, as brave soldiers."
Don't you remember that shortly after the occupation an order of this kind was published?
A. This order was addressed to the German troops.
Q. But it was also made public. Don't you remember that?
A. I know that the Germans particularly recognized the heroism of the Greeks and they believed that this recognition would be more satisfactory towards the Greeks; but, unfortunately, the opposite thing happened towards these heroic warriors. When the Germans came in Athens they threw them away.
Q. Just a minute. I didn't ask you regarding this question. We will deal with this later on in detail. I am only asking you, do you remember that an order of this kind was published and was made public in Greece? That is the only thing I want to know at this moment.
A. I don't know about this order. The only thing I know is that the Germans recognized the heroic resistance of the Greek army.
Q. Witness, yesterday you said something about the great difficulties regarding the food situation during the time of the occupation which cannot be denied in the whole extent. Now, you had at that time ration cards for food?
A. We had ration books for bread at the beginning and later on for other food also.
Q. At the beginning for bread. Now what were the quitas or quantities you got, monthly, weekly or daily, sudt as you had it? You said bread, first of all didn't you?
A. 75 grams daily.
Q. Do you really want to say that it was 75 grams daily?
A. Yes, nominally, because in reality nothing was given.
Q. Was there a lot of fruit and vegetables on the markets during the whole time of the occupation?
A. There were a lot but most of it was taken by the German Army and a small quantity was allowed for the Greek population. I told that yesterday.
Q. How do you know this, that a lot of stuff was removed from the markets for the German armed forces?
A. We could see it.
Q. Now, what did you see there?
A. We could see German trucks taking stuff out of every food shop in Athens, out of every fruit cellar; and the Germans had already requisitioned the greater part of the farms around Athens, and when you went to such a farm to buy something, vegetables or fruit, the plea was:
"This requisitioned by the Germans and you cannot buy anything from us."
Q. That may be true these farmers told you that but was it like this in reality?
A. Yes, it it true because of all these deaths out of starvation how can they be explained?
Q. You said just now that every one was dying of hunger. Is that also slightly exaggerated?
Q. Did you not say that everyone was dying of hunger?
A. Yes, I told you that they were dying of starvation.
Q. But, witness you said, "WE were dying of hunger." That doesn't seem to be quite correct. I would ask you, witness, to remember, even when you are asked by me, that you are under oath.
A. Well, you may be right because you are lucky enough not to be in Greece as a Greek slave.
Q. I am really upholding your evidence because you said: "WE were dying of starvation."
What fat rations did you get?
I was just being told that the last item has not been translated.
What fat rations did you get?
A. Nothing.
Q. Do you really want to say that, that you go no fat rations at all?
A. Absolutely nothing.
Q. And what did you get as far as meat was concerned?
A. Yes, with the rations, absolutely nothing. The few quantities of meat that were available on the black market were so expensive that only a few people could pay and buy them. Only once in three months the average people could have a meal of meat and that was coming from different animals who died from starvation.
Q. You said that you did not get any fat. Did you get oil?
A. With rations, no.
Q. And otherwise?
A. Well, on the black market one could find some oil but it was at such prices that you would have had to sell your house to obtain a tin of oil.
Q. Witness, during the time of the occupation -- that is, when it started -- were there any large Greek stores of food?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Were these really large stores which existed at that time?
A. I can't tell you the exact quantities that there were at that time but I know that the food was enough or last for us for one year to one year and a half and that was foreseen by the Greek government which had issued an order for all the population not to buy more food and store it in their houses than they needed for a short period.
Q. That is, you want to say that when the German occupation began the Greek administration had great, large stocks of food for 18 months?
A. Yes.
Q. Who told you that?
A. I know that from the public storehouses which were requisitioned by the Germans.
Q. Don't you know what I mean regarding the size of the stocks? Weren't you told that by any official departments?
A. No.
Q. Witness, in the proceedings before the International Tribunal the Greek government submitted a memorandum. Do you know this memorandum?
A. No, I don't know it.
Q. Then you don't know which attitude is contained in this official memorandum regarding the stock piling of Greece with food?
A. I don't know anything about it.
Q. Your statement that the stocks would have lasted for 18 months at the time of the beginning of the German occupation -- do you want to maintain this statement in the official statement said that the stocks had been nearly completely exhausted through the previous battles?
A. When I see such a notice of my government, well, I won't maintain my statement but as long as I don't see it I will maintain it.
Q. You want to say, in contrast to the attitude taken up by the Greek government which says the stocks were nearly exhausted -- you want to testify under oath here in Court and apparently from your own knowledge that the stocks of offd in Greece would last for 18 months?
A. If those quantities of food stuffs were not enough for all of this period as for the Greek was concerned I know it would be enough for the town of Athens for that period.
Q. And who told you that?
A. I know it from my personal knowledge because I visited those warehouses which contained butter, oil, sugar and other food stuffs -- flour.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will take our morning recess now.
(A recess was taken)
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed, Dr. Laternser.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, we have two new interpreters now, and at this time I have spoken to defense counsel about it and they are agreeable. Perhaps your Honor would like to administer the oath.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The interpreters will stand and be sworn.
INTERPRETER SIMHA: I do solemnly swear that I will perform my duties as interpreter to the Tribunal to the best of my ability and skill. (Oath also repeated by Interpreter Ame Anagnestopeules.)
CROSS EXAMINATION - (Continued) WITNESS NICHOLAS JOHAN NERIS BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, shortly before the recess we spoke of the stock piles in Greece, concerning food. You said that according to your judgment there wore available stocks for one and one-half years. Now I ask you: how did you find that out?
A I know that from the warehouses which used to be filled before the arrival of the Germans and which were emptied by the Germans upon their entry into Greece.
Q That is to say, that is your own judgment that there were stocks for one and one-half years.
AAs a witness, of course I am testifying from my own knowledge.
Q Did you find out about all stocks, in order to arrive at this judgment?
A That is my opinion, as I stated before.
Q How was Greece, - that is through what connection, - how was Greece fed in normal times?
A Until the arrival of the Germans, Greece was absolutely independent with a very few exceptions. They lived from their own land, with a few exceptions, a few things were imported from the outside. The reason was that the English had also brought a large amount of foodstuffs.
Q In what kind of transportation or ships, - how was the food imported?
A The food was sent into Greece by all means of transportation, which the Germans later on took away, without worrying about the food situation of the country.
Q We will determine that yet.
Witness, - granting the difficult situation so far as food is concerned, - wasn't it contributed to by the fact that Greek and British troops, during the withdrawal, destroyed the railroads?
A The British did not destroy anything, and I shall repeat my testimony as given before; it was the fact that the Germans had stolen all of the food we had, that contributed to the situation of that country.
Q Witness, do you want to say, under oath, that the British troops during their withdrawal did not destroy anything in the matter of transportation facilities? Do you really want to testify to that?
A I couldn't actually say that, that they didn't destroy anything at all, but I shall again repeat my testimony, that everything, all we had in foodstuffs and everything else, was stolen by the Germans.
Q Witness, I want to get an answer to my question. You said first, that the British troops during their withdrawal did not destroy any transportation facilities. I ask you whether you want to testify to that, under oath.
A I told you before that I was stating everything under oath, and I shall stick to my testimony, but I would like to repeat, as I did so many times, the starvation which I described yesterday, and all of the other difficulties, which the Greek people were going through, was simply due to the fact that the Germans had stolen everything we had in Greece.
It is, of course, a known fact that if possible, sometimes trains were blown up, and the means of transportation were thus troubled, but that does not mean, necessarily, that the Germans were not responsible for that also.
Therefore, I stick to my testimony again, and say that they were the ones who had stolen everything we had.
Q We will discuss that matter yet.
CROSS EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q In order to refresh your recollection, don't you know that the British, during their withdrawal, destroyed the Bralo bridge near Thermophlae that thus, the only connection between Saloniki and Athens, was thereby interrupted?
A That fact was not known to me. All I know is that trains were still coming in from Saloniki, going to Athens for the Germans, not for the Greeks. I don't know if the trains stopped right near that point -- bridge which you call Bralo -- but in any case I do know that the trains were coming from Saloniki in to Athens.
Q Do you know that was true for the whole time?
AAll I can tell you is that the -- if you want to call it tactical communication -- between Saloniki, Athens, and the Peloponnes did exist; so all I can tell you is what I saw. I saw trains loaded coming in full of food for the Germans.
Q You also want to say this for the time when the Bralo bridge was destroyed by the British troops and then later was destroyed a second time by the Partisans?
A I do remember the incident when the Greek forces blew up the bridge of Bralo, but even from that period of time I do remember that trains were coming into Athens. Possibly a stop-over was carried out there where they would carry the food across or where the train would change on some of these bridges. In any case the communication was still good because the food was coming into Athens.
Q Witness, you were very much concerned with the food situation in Athens?
A Yes, the government thought it important.
Q Witness, then you would also have to know that the German army ran food ships for the Greek population from Saloniki to Athens which were unfortunately torpedoed.
A I don't know that. That is absolutely new to me; but, in any case, all I know is that the population of Athens was dying of starvation, and I know that for certain.
Q Witness, don't you know either that the British troops caused Greek ships in the harbor Alexandria to be retained so that the foodstuffs brought for the Greeks could not get to Athens?
A I couldn't know that, for the very simple reason that the Germans wouldn't let me listen to foreign broadcasts or to radio stations.
Q I didn't get the answer. Did you stick to this order?
A Yes indeed.
Q Did you find that out later?
A I didn't.
Q Witness, do you know, and you would have to know, if you were concerned with the food situation -- do you know that those Greeks who worked for the Germans were completely fed by the Germans?
A That was the business of the German Army and not my business.
Q I ask you whether you know that the Greeks who were employed by the German troops and by German authorities were fed by the Germans?
A I told you what the relationship was with the Greeks, but of course, if the Greeks were working for the Germans possibly they were fed. But only a very few worked for the Germans.
Q Witness, do you know that it was forbidden to the German soldiers to eat in Greek restaurants to of regard for the Greek population?
AAt that time the restaurants didn't have anything anyway.
Q Do you want to say that the restaurants never had anything to offer during all the time of the occupation?
A I wish to say that during the time of the occupation the restaurants didn't have anything at all, and I mean that until the period of time when the Red Cross started sending food into Greece. And if the restaurants had anything to eat, it came from the blackmarket and was only for blackmarketeers.
Q You just mentioned the Red Cross deliveries. Do you know, Witness, that these Red Cross deliveries from Switzerland and Sweden were made possible only because German military authorities especially saw to it?
A I heard something entirely different. I heard that our allies wanted to send us foodstuffs but that the Germans wouldn't permit them to do so. They would make certain difficulties.
Q Witness, I will now show you some proof that it is just the contrary. I believe that I must now point out to you, and you must know it very well as a lawyer, that in these proceedings you have to testify without hate. Do you know that?
A I know that, and I can tell you that I do not have any hate against the Germans; I'm just sorry for them.
Q Witness, you just said that the food deliveries from foreign countries were brought in against the will of the Germans.
A I didn't exactly say that. I said that there were certain difficulties. Now, I don't know and I imagine there were certain objections on the part of the Germans, but there must have been some sort of negotiations which finally enabled the ships to come to the harbor and bring the foodstuffs. How else could they come if it hadn't been for the help of the Germans?
Q That is already something different from what you have said before, Witness. Witness, one question: Who was the Papal Nuntius at Athens at that time?
A I didn't know him.
Q You didn't know him?
A No, I tell you I didn't, but if you would give me his name maybe I would remember it.
Q He was the ambassador Roncati from the Roman Vatican to Greece.
A. No, I didn't know him, nor did I ever hear that name.