Q. At the beginning for bread. Now what were the quitas or quantities you got, monthly, weekly or daily, sudt as you had it? You said bread, first of all didn't you?
A. 75 grams daily.
Q. Do you really want to say that it was 75 grams daily?
A. Yes, nominally, because in reality nothing was given.
Q. Was there a lot of fruit and vegetables on the markets during the whole time of the occupation?
A. There were a lot but most of it was taken by the German Army and a small quantity was allowed for the Greek population. I told that yesterday.
Q. How do you know this, that a lot of stuff was removed from the markets for the German armed forces?
A. We could see it.
Q. Now, what did you see there?
A. We could see German trucks taking stuff out of every food shop in Athens, out of every fruit cellar; and the Germans had already requisitioned the greater part of the farms around Athens, and when you went to such a farm to buy something, vegetables or fruit, the plea was:
"This requisitioned by the Germans and you cannot buy anything from us."
Q. That may be true these farmers told you that but was it like this in reality?
A. Yes, it it true because of all these deaths out of starvation how can they be explained?
Q. You said just now that every one was dying of hunger. Is that also slightly exaggerated?
Q. Did you not say that everyone was dying of hunger?
A. Yes, I told you that they were dying of starvation.
Q. But, witness you said, "WE were dying of hunger." That doesn't seem to be quite correct. I would ask you, witness, to remember, even when you are asked by me, that you are under oath.
A. Well, you may be right because you are lucky enough not to be in Greece as a Greek slave.
Q. I am really upholding your evidence because you said: "WE were dying of starvation."
What fat rations did you get?
I was just being told that the last item has not been translated.
What fat rations did you get?
A. Nothing.
Q. Do you really want to say that, that you go no fat rations at all?
A. Absolutely nothing.
Q. And what did you get as far as meat was concerned?
A. Yes, with the rations, absolutely nothing. The few quantities of meat that were available on the black market were so expensive that only a few people could pay and buy them. Only once in three months the average people could have a meal of meat and that was coming from different animals who died from starvation.
Q. You said that you did not get any fat. Did you get oil?
A. With rations, no.
Q. And otherwise?
A. Well, on the black market one could find some oil but it was at such prices that you would have had to sell your house to obtain a tin of oil.
Q. Witness, during the time of the occupation -- that is, when it started -- were there any large Greek stores of food?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Were these really large stores which existed at that time?
A. I can't tell you the exact quantities that there were at that time but I know that the food was enough or last for us for one year to one year and a half and that was foreseen by the Greek government which had issued an order for all the population not to buy more food and store it in their houses than they needed for a short period.
Q. That is, you want to say that when the German occupation began the Greek administration had great, large stocks of food for 18 months?
A. Yes.
Q. Who told you that?
A. I know that from the public storehouses which were requisitioned by the Germans.
Q. Don't you know what I mean regarding the size of the stocks? Weren't you told that by any official departments?
A. No.
Q. Witness, in the proceedings before the International Tribunal the Greek government submitted a memorandum. Do you know this memorandum?
A. No, I don't know it.
Q. Then you don't know which attitude is contained in this official memorandum regarding the stock piling of Greece with food?
A. I don't know anything about it.
Q. Your statement that the stocks would have lasted for 18 months at the time of the beginning of the German occupation -- do you want to maintain this statement in the official statement said that the stocks had been nearly completely exhausted through the previous battles?
A. When I see such a notice of my government, well, I won't maintain my statement but as long as I don't see it I will maintain it.
Q. You want to say, in contrast to the attitude taken up by the Greek government which says the stocks were nearly exhausted -- you want to testify under oath here in Court and apparently from your own knowledge that the stocks of offd in Greece would last for 18 months?
A. If those quantities of food stuffs were not enough for all of this period as for the Greek was concerned I know it would be enough for the town of Athens for that period.
Q. And who told you that?
A. I know it from my personal knowledge because I visited those warehouses which contained butter, oil, sugar and other food stuffs -- flour.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will take our morning recess now.
(A recess was taken)
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed, Dr. Laternser.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, we have two new interpreters now, and at this time I have spoken to defense counsel about it and they are agreeable. Perhaps your Honor would like to administer the oath.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The interpreters will stand and be sworn.
INTERPRETER SIMHA: I do solemnly swear that I will perform my duties as interpreter to the Tribunal to the best of my ability and skill. (Oath also repeated by Interpreter Ame Anagnestopeules.)
CROSS EXAMINATION - (Continued) WITNESS NICHOLAS JOHAN NERIS BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, shortly before the recess we spoke of the stock piles in Greece, concerning food. You said that according to your judgment there wore available stocks for one and one-half years. Now I ask you: how did you find that out?
A I know that from the warehouses which used to be filled before the arrival of the Germans and which were emptied by the Germans upon their entry into Greece.
Q That is to say, that is your own judgment that there were stocks for one and one-half years.
AAs a witness, of course I am testifying from my own knowledge.
Q Did you find out about all stocks, in order to arrive at this judgment?
A That is my opinion, as I stated before.
Q How was Greece, - that is through what connection, - how was Greece fed in normal times?
A Until the arrival of the Germans, Greece was absolutely independent with a very few exceptions. They lived from their own land, with a few exceptions, a few things were imported from the outside. The reason was that the English had also brought a large amount of foodstuffs.
Q In what kind of transportation or ships, - how was the food imported?
A The food was sent into Greece by all means of transportation, which the Germans later on took away, without worrying about the food situation of the country.
Q We will determine that yet.
Witness, - granting the difficult situation so far as food is concerned, - wasn't it contributed to by the fact that Greek and British troops, during the withdrawal, destroyed the railroads?
A The British did not destroy anything, and I shall repeat my testimony as given before; it was the fact that the Germans had stolen all of the food we had, that contributed to the situation of that country.
Q Witness, do you want to say, under oath, that the British troops during their withdrawal did not destroy anything in the matter of transportation facilities? Do you really want to testify to that?
A I couldn't actually say that, that they didn't destroy anything at all, but I shall again repeat my testimony, that everything, all we had in foodstuffs and everything else, was stolen by the Germans.
Q Witness, I want to get an answer to my question. You said first, that the British troops during their withdrawal did not destroy any transportation facilities. I ask you whether you want to testify to that, under oath.
A I told you before that I was stating everything under oath, and I shall stick to my testimony, but I would like to repeat, as I did so many times, the starvation which I described yesterday, and all of the other difficulties, which the Greek people were going through, was simply due to the fact that the Germans had stolen everything we had in Greece.
It is, of course, a known fact that if possible, sometimes trains were blown up, and the means of transportation were thus troubled, but that does not mean, necessarily, that the Germans were not responsible for that also.
Therefore, I stick to my testimony again, and say that they were the ones who had stolen everything we had.
Q We will discuss that matter yet.
CROSS EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q In order to refresh your recollection, don't you know that the British, during their withdrawal, destroyed the Bralo bridge near Thermophlae that thus, the only connection between Saloniki and Athens, was thereby interrupted?
A That fact was not known to me. All I know is that trains were still coming in from Saloniki, going to Athens for the Germans, not for the Greeks. I don't know if the trains stopped right near that point -- bridge which you call Bralo -- but in any case I do know that the trains were coming from Saloniki in to Athens.
Q Do you know that was true for the whole time?
AAll I can tell you is that the -- if you want to call it tactical communication -- between Saloniki, Athens, and the Peloponnes did exist; so all I can tell you is what I saw. I saw trains loaded coming in full of food for the Germans.
Q You also want to say this for the time when the Bralo bridge was destroyed by the British troops and then later was destroyed a second time by the Partisans?
A I do remember the incident when the Greek forces blew up the bridge of Bralo, but even from that period of time I do remember that trains were coming into Athens. Possibly a stop-over was carried out there where they would carry the food across or where the train would change on some of these bridges. In any case the communication was still good because the food was coming into Athens.
Q Witness, you were very much concerned with the food situation in Athens?
A Yes, the government thought it important.
Q Witness, then you would also have to know that the German army ran food ships for the Greek population from Saloniki to Athens which were unfortunately torpedoed.
A I don't know that. That is absolutely new to me; but, in any case, all I know is that the population of Athens was dying of starvation, and I know that for certain.
Q Witness, don't you know either that the British troops caused Greek ships in the harbor Alexandria to be retained so that the foodstuffs brought for the Greeks could not get to Athens?
A I couldn't know that, for the very simple reason that the Germans wouldn't let me listen to foreign broadcasts or to radio stations.
Q I didn't get the answer. Did you stick to this order?
A Yes indeed.
Q Did you find that out later?
A I didn't.
Q Witness, do you know, and you would have to know, if you were concerned with the food situation -- do you know that those Greeks who worked for the Germans were completely fed by the Germans?
A That was the business of the German Army and not my business.
Q I ask you whether you know that the Greeks who were employed by the German troops and by German authorities were fed by the Germans?
A I told you what the relationship was with the Greeks, but of course, if the Greeks were working for the Germans possibly they were fed. But only a very few worked for the Germans.
Q Witness, do you know that it was forbidden to the German soldiers to eat in Greek restaurants to of regard for the Greek population?
AAt that time the restaurants didn't have anything anyway.
Q Do you want to say that the restaurants never had anything to offer during all the time of the occupation?
A I wish to say that during the time of the occupation the restaurants didn't have anything at all, and I mean that until the period of time when the Red Cross started sending food into Greece. And if the restaurants had anything to eat, it came from the blackmarket and was only for blackmarketeers.
Q You just mentioned the Red Cross deliveries. Do you know, Witness, that these Red Cross deliveries from Switzerland and Sweden were made possible only because German military authorities especially saw to it?
A I heard something entirely different. I heard that our allies wanted to send us foodstuffs but that the Germans wouldn't permit them to do so. They would make certain difficulties.
Q Witness, I will now show you some proof that it is just the contrary. I believe that I must now point out to you, and you must know it very well as a lawyer, that in these proceedings you have to testify without hate. Do you know that?
A I know that, and I can tell you that I do not have any hate against the Germans; I'm just sorry for them.
Q Witness, you just said that the food deliveries from foreign countries were brought in against the will of the Germans.
A I didn't exactly say that. I said that there were certain difficulties. Now, I don't know and I imagine there were certain objections on the part of the Germans, but there must have been some sort of negotiations which finally enabled the ships to come to the harbor and bring the foodstuffs. How else could they come if it hadn't been for the help of the Germans?
Q That is already something different from what you have said before, Witness. Witness, one question: Who was the Papal Nuntius at Athens at that time?
A I didn't know him.
Q You didn't know him?
A No, I tell you I didn't, but if you would give me his name maybe I would remember it.
Q He was the ambassador Roncati from the Roman Vatican to Greece.
A. No, I didn't know him, nor did I ever hear that name.
CROSS EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q You just spoke of the Red Cross deliveries. When did they come through?
A I believe it was after the middle of 1942 and 1943.
Q From where did these deliveries come?
A They came from America, from Canada, from England, from Egypt, and also from the Middle East.
Q Were there any from Sweden?
A I believe so. I don't know for certain, but I believe so.
Q Do you know that just the German authorities were especially supporting these deliveries?
A I didn't know that, no.
Q Do you know that the German troops especially helped in bringing in the harvest for the Greek population?
A No, I knew the contrary.
Q What do you mean by the contrary? Was the help refused?
A I know of no such help.
Q Do you know, witness, that the Greek fisheries, with the help of the German troops, were made workable again?
A We Greeks didn't see any fish.
Q Are you married?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Do you have children?
A Yes.
Q How old are these children?
A I have a son 21.
Q Do you know that in Athens even though it was not German sovereign territory, children were fed by the army.
A I don't know of any such thing. All I know is that the children were receiving something from the Red Cross.
Q Do you really want to say under oath that you, as a man who was always active in Athens, that you never heard of the fact that German troops continually fed children?
A I know of no such thing. But I do know that Greek children would go near German messes and try to get some food, whereupon the food would be refused them. And, as a matter of fact, the big containers with the food would be emptied on the ground and gasoline poured on to that remaining food so that nobody could eat it.
Q Do you really want to testify to that under oath?
A Yes, I'm stating that under oath and I saw it with my own eyes.
Q You saw that with your own eyes?
A Yes, with my two eyes.
Q When and where?
AAt the station called Peloponessum -- Peloponnes in Athens.
Q Witness, don't you know anything about the fact other that the stocks captured by the German troops were made available to the Greek troops and to the Greek population?
A This is the first time I have heard about that.
Q You said yesterday that heavy penalties of imprisonment were ordered for a Greek having more food than was necessary for two or three days. How would you explain these threats of penalties?
A I don't understand the question.
Q How would you explain -- what reason would you assume for the fact that the German administration ordered imprisonment for Greeks who had food in possession for more than two or three days?
A I'm just giving my opinion on that. I imagine that they didn't want to have all the people going to the shops and buying all the foodstuffs that they could get a hold of. I believe that was the only reason. In order to stop that they threatened them with heavy penalties.
Q Then there was food to be brought, after all.
A There were very few things -- a very few things -- most of it in the blackmarket.
Q Wasn't this threat of punishment made in order to secure a just distribution of the foodstuffs?
A The entire approach of the Germans toward the Greeks makes me believe exactly the contrary -- the entire attitude and the entire policy.
Q And why was it prohibited to the population to get food from the country?
A I couldn't understand that. All I knew was that the people was going to die of starvation and was being sentenced to death by starvation.
Q But you just said that they were sentenced to a death of starvation.
A Of course.
Q Do you know anything about the fact that the German authorities combatted the blackmarket very strongly?
A No, I didn't know that.
Q In order to put another question at this point, who was responsible for the supply of foodstuffs in Athens -- German authorities or Italian authorities?
A The occupational forces.
Q I just asked you which of the occupying powers -- the Germans or the Italians?
A I would like to repeat my statement which I made before, namely that whatever was going on in Greece was done by the Germans. The Italians did not have too much importance. They were even less important than we were.
Q We want to pass to another point. Which political movements existed, at the time of the occupation, against the German and Italian occupied powers?
Q. We want to pass to another point. Which political movement existed at the time of the occupation against the German and Italian power?
A. During the entire period of the occupation, the entire Greek nation and every Greek, individually, was fighting for the liberation of his country.
Q. And which movements arose in that time?
A. You have the movement of active resistance which could be found in the mountains and the movement of passive resistance which would be found in the towns and villages.
Q. In which one were you active?
A. I was in the movement of Greece.
Q. You just said that there was an active and a passive movement. To which did you belong?
A. I was the Chief of Police and I believe, Mr. Counsel can understand very well in which of the two I was. I was in the both the active and the passive resistance.
Q. Now, witness, which movement existed. We want to stress the active one. You certainly will now that, as a police chief.
A. Certain military groups had developed which military groups were led by officers and which were under the direct orders of the Commander of the Middle East. There were the men in command were men like Zervas, like Psaros, and Sarafis and others.
Q. What other active movements were existing who resisted the German occupation?
A. Those are the only ones I know.
Q. Witness, haven't you ever heard anything? We heard very much of the EAM and the ELAS.
A. The EAM is a political group. The ELAS was a military unit which was being led by one of those officers.
Q. Did the EAM and the ELAS--did they fight the Zervas groups?
MR. DENNEY: If your Honor pleases, I don't see that his has any place in the cross examination all the inner ramifications there at that time.
MR. LATERNSER: May I say something to this? I would like to find out by asking these questions what the conditions at that time were in Greece, and it is absolutely necessary to find out what they were in order to be able to judge, in order to be able to understand the military measures which were taken by the occupying power. This is absolute, probative evidence matter. I ask that the question be admitted.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think that Dr. Laternser is going quite far afield in the matter of cross-examination. If you are trying to prove something affirmative for your own case, I don't think this is the proper time to do it.
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, your Honor, but this is it. The witness has testified to several measures by the military authorities. For example, he has spoken of shootings. The basis for these shootings arc the conditions at that time and the conditions at that time under which the occupying power undertook these measures. Therefore, it was special importance.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will let you proceed with that to a limited extent.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. I asked you whether these groups fought each other?
A. I don't know what the relationship was between those two groups but I do know that these were organizations of resistance or resistance movements against the Germans for the liberation of their country.
Q. What was the relationship between these two groups to each other? I mean the national resistance movement--Zervas and the other resistance movement, designated either ELAS or EAM.
MR. DENNEY: I thought the witness was testifying and said there were two kind of resistance groups those in the mountains and those in the cities and now Dr. Laternser is giving us some more advice on national groups and other kinds of the groups about which the witness has not testified. I object to the question.
DR. LATERNSER: I thought the question referred to what the witness has already said.
MR. DENNEY: He didn't characterize it that way. The witness said there were two kinds of groups. Now Dr. Laternser it trying to label the groups.
THE PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Will you restate the question, Dr. Laternser, in different form, please?
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Witness, you just spoke of various resistance movements.
A. I didn't speak of two resistance movements. I spoke of two groups who were fighting against the Germans under the direction of officers because the resistance movement was one single movement of Greece.
Q. Witness, which resistance movements during the occupation fought the Germans and organized against the Germans?
A. It was a resistance movement as I told you before.
Q. But this resistance movement was not uniform was it?
A. Why, of course.
Q. Do you really want to say, witness, that this movement under Zervas was united with the movement of ELAS and EAM?
A. What I want to say is that these groups were all fighting against the German invader under the direction of officers who had been sent there by the Commanders in the Middle East.
Q. Witness, I had ask you whether these two movements which you have mentioned fought each other or were they united?
MR. DENNEY: If your Honor please, I submit he is arguing with the witness. He has answered the question. He has told them what kind of resistance there was and Dr. Laternser keeps trying to label two groups.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, it is very important what condition existed during the German occupation. I must be entitled to ask such questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think the objection should be sustained. Let me say, Dr. Laternser, that I think this cross-examination is getting very far afield from what he testified on direct examination.
I wish you would consider during the noon recess this fact that if you want develop facts concerning the situation in Greece that was not brought out on direct examination, you should make him your own witness and interrogate him. I think the Tribunal would permit you to do that but to allow you to continue to the extent you have on cross examination violates all the rules that I know anything about.
DR. LATERNSER: I shall give the Tribunal my opinion after the recess.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will recess until one-thirty.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: The persons in the courtroom will be seated.
The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed, Dr. Laternser.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, shortly before the recess we were talking about the various resistance movements. In what way did these resistance movements act against the German Occupation force?
A The resistance movements were fighting the occupational German forces by doing all the things which any resistance movement would do in order to stop the enemy from its occupation.
Q You said in order to keep them for occupying the country? Greek was occupied.
A They were fighting for the liberation of Greece.
Q In doing this did they commit cruelties against the German troops?
A Not that I know of. All I know is that they were fighting against the German troops.
Q You don't know anything about cruelties or atrocities?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, I submit he is going pretty far in cross-examination here and he has testified, the witness on his question, he says he doesn't know anything about it and I submit he is bound by his answer.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Yesterday you mentioned the execution Kalavrita. What had been done previously to that against the German troops?
AAll I know is that a result of the guerilla operations. Three Germans columns started marching towards Kalavrita, they segregated men, women and children. All the men were executed while the women, and children were locked into a school house.
Q Witness, did not the partisans prior to that murder and main 78 German soldiers?
A I personally don't know that, but there is another witness here who will testify about Kalavrita and he undoubtedly should know more about it.
Q You only know then that in Kalavrita Greeks were shot?
A Yes indeed, and I personally visited both Kalavrita and (Selff) and the cemetery there and I saw first of all the ruins of Kalavrita and in the cemetery I saw the crosses for the people who had been killed.
Q On the occasion of your visit to Kalavrita, did you also talk to inhabitants or former inhabitants of Kalavrita?
AAll those I used to know, because I had visited Kalavrita on forty occasions, had been killed.
Q And did you not later talk to an inhabitant of Kalavrita?
A I spoke with women from Kalavrita.
Q Surely, you asked these women who came from Kalavrita what the reason for these shootings was.
A That was not the only town where Greek men had been killed
Q But, witness, if you talked with inhabitants of Kalavrita, about the happenings which occurred there, you surely asked them why these things had happened?
A The reason for the execution of these Greek citizens, men namely, was stated to be by the women of Kalavrita that Kalavrita was sheltering Greek guerillas. That is, they had been accused by the Germans of sheltering Greek guerillas.
Q And nothing was said by those women about the fact that the troops had been shot at in Kalavrita so that 78 German soldiers had been killed.
MR. DENNEY: He asked him that before and he told him he didn't hear anything about it. Now I think he has exhausted the subject.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, may I say something quite briefly to what the prosecution has just objected to? I am of course justified in cross-examination to change the statement of a witness and I have been successful in some cases, and if he said previously that the reasons which he has just given that they could not find out about these reasons, that the women told him that shootings took place because the inhabitants had supported the bands and now I am trying to ascertain whether the women did not tell him the troop marching through the village had been shot at by inhabitants. That is an important circumstance. I therefore ask if this question is admitted?
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: All right, we will let you ask that question.
BY DR. LATERNSER: Witness, did these women of Kalavrita tell you that the troops marching through the villages were shot at the villages so that 78 German soldiers were killed?
A You are asking me about shots as fired from the inside of Kalavrita?
Q I ask you about the German soldiers shot, which had been murdered by the population of Kalavrita.