A I don't know that; I have heard for the first time that German soldiers were fired at from Kalavrita, the reason being that if this had been the case the people that fired, at Kalavrita, on German soldiers, the German soldiers would have fired back, and there would have been no necessity to destroy the village.
Q You are a lawyer, aren't you?
A Yes.
Q And you know sufficiently about international law that if a troop is fired at from a village one may burn the village.
MR. DENNEY: If he is going to qualify the witness as an expert on international law I submit that he should take him over as his own and lay the proper foundation. I certainly object to this line of testimony.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, who, among the various resistance movements, fought most strongly against the German occupational force?
A I don't know.
Q Most attacks against the German occupational forces were they not caused by Communists in force?
MR. DENNEY: He is now going so far beyond the scope of direct examination that I submit that he should be limited. There has been absolutely no testimony at all about Communists.
DR. LATERNSER: In every report that has been mentioned the Prosecution has assumed that the reason so many Communists have been shot is because of attacks against the German armed forces and for this reason I am justified in asking if he knew anything about that and knew anything about the Communists.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, you said yesterday that the German troops had confiscated most of the hospitals and limited the Greek population to a very small part only?
MR. DENNEY: Dr. Laternser continues to expand the scope of this witness' testimony through all of Greece. I think it was very clearly brought out on direct examination that the man was in Athens all of the time and was only testifying with reference to Athens and I respectfully request the court that they direct him to limit himself to that and not to try to enlarge this to the whole Greek picture.
PRESIDING: I think that is quite true. I also think this witness is capable of drawing those distinctions. He is evidently an intelligent individual and we will permit him to answer the question.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q I repeat. Witness, when you said yesterday German troops had confiscated most of the hospitals and that the Greek population was limited to a small part, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Do you know the head of the Greek Ministry of Health, that is, Ministerial Director, Dr. Kopamarris?
A Kopamarrisis the name. Yes, I know him very well.
Q Did you ever talk to him about what the German troops did in the field of sanitation and health for Athens and Greece?
A No, I didn't.
Q But you said just now that you knew him very well and it would be quite natural one would talk about these matters.
MR. DENNEY: Now Dr. Laternser says he knew him well and then he asked if he talked to the man on the subject and he said no. Objection.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Don't you know that the entire rural population suffered because the doctors had fled into the cities, and were kept without cost by the German doctors whom they consulted and they were operated on by them. Did you ever hear that?
A I don't know that because I was living in Athens.
Q Now regarding Athens, don't you know that in Athens the civilian hospitals received their food and supplies from German stocks?
A No, I don't know that.
Q And you also don't know that the German Army gave medicines and bandages to the civilian hospitals?
AAll I know is that the Red Cross was doing those things. Unfortunately I know of no case where Germans had done such a thing because if they had I would have been very happy to tell the defense counsel about it.
Q Don't you know regarding the efforts of the German authorities to criticize malaria among the large populations?
A That is a question which is unknown to me. I was in Athens all the time and I didn't learn anything about it.
Q Have you heard anything about extensive drainage of swamps?
A No, I didn't hear anything about it.
Q You said yesterday also that the German authorities had cut off electric current at Athens. Why did that happen?
A The only reason was that they wanted to save electricity and simply use it for the purposes of the German occupational forces. They didn't care about the Greek people.
Q Witness, how long was Athens without electric current?
A The electricity would be on sometimes and then again it would be shut off, particularly during winter we didn't have any light at all.
Q And what was it like after the withdrawal of the German troops? Did you have light right away then?
A Yes, we did until shortly before they left but when they left they blew up all the electrical plants so of course we didn't have any light at all.
Q And for how long were you without light?
A I couldn't toll you exactly how long but it was for a long period of time.
Q You further said yesterday regarding this blocking off of various districts in Athens.
Whom were the authorities looking for in these actions?
A They weren't looking for anybody in particular when they carried out that blocking off of the roads and streets because if they were looking for somebody in particular they would either go and find him in his home or they would look for him where ever they thought he might be hiding; where they carried out this blocking off of the roads they would capture mostly civilians.
Q And in this connection you talked of a mysterious man wearing a black mask. Who was this man? What kind of man?
A I personally believe that the man wearing that black mask was a German soldier who pointed out civilians at random, you know, to find an excuse.
Q Why should he wear a black mask; I am telling you that it was probably a Greek.
A I am certain that it was not a Greek. Why should he be a Greek?
Q You are quite sure that he wasn't a Greek. Were you at the time Deputy President of Police in Athens?
A Yes, of course. I was staying in Athens.
Q Were you at that time Deputy Chief of Police?
A No, at the time I was the Chief of the Air Raid Precaution Service.
Q You then talked about concentration camps yesterday.
A Yes.
Q What do you understand by concentration camp?
A By that I mean a large space which contains large buildings and which has barbed wire fence around it. The people would be taken into that barbed wire enclosure and kept there for as long a period of time as the Germans desired.
Q In what kind of building was this so-called concentration camp?
A It was in Chaldari.
Q You said yesterday that it was a barracks?
A Yes, that is correct; they were barracks and I am saying the same thing today.
Q Which units were stationed in these barracks before the outbreak of war?
A It was a new barracks that had not been used as barracks as yet until six months before the beginning of the war, at which time Greek soldiers were billeted there, the Greek soldiers that were fighting Albania. 2052
Q Did you inspect those barracks closely at that time?
A No, I did not inspect the barracks. I had no reason whatsoever to do so. I had no right to do so.
Q Did you in the mean time have a good look at the court house here in Nurnberg?
A No, I didn't. I could have done it but I didn't.
Q You still want to say that the barracks there, in Athens, are the same size as this building here?
AAll I can say is, and I shall remain with my testimony, that the barracks, as I know the barracks, were almost as long according to their size and they could be compared to this court house building. In any case I didn't know Nurnberg before and those buildings could accommodate a whole brigade as barracks.
Q Witness, during the whole time of the occupation by the Germans you occupied office?
A Yes, I held those offices before the invasion and I remained at my post of course.
Q You must have collaborated quite well with the German Ministry Department?
MR. DENNEY: I submit that I object to Dr. Laternser suggesting to the witness that he collaborated with anybody. He certainly knows better than that.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER Sustained.
A I collaborated with those German officers so well to a certain extent that I don't know one single defendant and I would like to know if anyone of them knows me.
DR. LATERNSER: I have not further questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Any further questions by defense counsel.
BY DR. HINDEMITH (As deputy of Dr. Rauschenbach, attorney for the defendant Foertsch):
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q You said the German troops shortly after the entry confiscated all stocks and robbed warehouses. Is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Would you explain that in detail? And how far the German Ministry Departments carried out this robbery as you call it?
MR. DENNEY: I certainly think this witness has covered that in his testimony all morning, and unless Dr. Hindemith has something new that he wants to bring out I object to his question on this line. I suggest he pass to something else.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We permitted Dr. Laternser to go into detail on all these matters and unless there is something new there is no occasion for going into it again. We don't want to repeat this over and over. The objection is sustained.
BY DR. HINDEMITH:
Q Another question. You said that the situation as regards food for the Greek population was more and more difficult immediately after the entry of the German troops by reason of the confiscations. In the summer months it had been tolerable; from September 1941 onwards the situation had become tragic, and the situation had become especially difficult by the fact that an order had been issued according to which every kind of imports into Athens were forbidden. When was this order issued?
A The order was issued immediately after the Germans had entered Athens. The same applied to the order according to which not more food should be kept at home than was absolutely necessary.
DR. HINDEMITH: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions by defense counsel?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW for General Felmy:
Q Witness, may I recall to you that the subject matter about which you were to testify and for which you have been called here is the activities of the German Occupation Forces in Greece, not in Athens from 1941 to 1945.
A I offered to testify about anything I know. I shall also testify, if you want me to, about things I heard and which things I ascertained personally about.
Q Witness, is it known to you that in Athens after the withdrawal the German troops, an American Embassy was opened?
A You mean after the liberation?
Q After the withdrawal of the German troops?
AAfter the liberation all legations were reinstated. We had the American legation, the British Legation, the French Legation and others.
Q From your official position which you occupied did you have any official connections with the American Legation?
A None whatsoever.
Q Is Mr. William Hardy McNeil known to you?
A You are talking about this Englishman? Yes, I heard his name but I don't know him personally.
Q Mr. Hardy McNeil is not an Englishman but he is an American. From November 1944 until June 1946 he was the deputy Military attache of the United States in Athens. Do you know this gentlemen?
A No, I don't know him because I had no dealings whatsoever with the American Legation, nor with any of the other Legations.
Q This Mr. McNeil has recently published a book with the title "The Greek Dilemma". May I ask the interpreter to read part of the book?
MR. DENNY: May your Honors please, I don't what we have to do with a book written by McNeil with the title of "The Greek Dilemma". He has asked the witness if he knows him, the witness says he doesn't knew him.
I object to this kind of questioning.
THE PRESIDENT: That's improper cross examination. Objection sustained.
Q The fact that the witness does not know this Mr. McNeil cannot be reason for not allowing me to submit part of this book to him on which I ask his opinion. In this circumstance the whether he knows him or not is quite irrelevant.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think his opinion is relevant on this subject. Objection sustained.
Q Witness, you said yesterday the members of the Greek Police were shortly deprived of their arms shortly after the entry of the Germans.
A I didn't speak about weapons at all yesterday. When I was asked, however, if the policemen had any weapons, I answered "At the beginning of the occupation they did not, but later on they did have weapons, at the end of the occupation."
Q Did you not say yesterday that the weapons had been taken from them and they only had wooden sticks and at the time of the occupation were issued some weapons.
A No, I didn't say that. I was asked if the police had any weapons whereupon I said at the beginning of the occupation they did not have, and towards the end they did.
Q The end? Then may I draw your attention to Document Book 17, document NOKW -044, Exhibit 418. It says on page 62 of the German Document Book in a teletype message of a daily report of Military commanders of the 19 September 1943, under Greece it says:
"Greek police Pyraeus was armed with pistols in order to be able to combat Communistic terror groups." Do you maintain your statement, witness?
AAbsolutely. I said it quite clearly - that toward the end of occupation they received a few weapons.
Q Witness, the date this was issued is 19 September 1943. As far as I know the end of the occupation took place about 2 years later, 1 year later.
A The occupation lasted for 3½ years.
Q You call that the end of the time of occupation?
Witness, I have some further questions regarding what you told us about the food situation. First of all, you frequently talked about the black market in Athens. Was this extensive, this black market?
A Yes.
Q As Deputy Chief of Police of Athens what did you do against the black market in order to provide Greek population with food stuffs?
A Whatever measure a slave himself can take, a slave who is hungry. In order to fight the black market activities, I had to have something to eat myself, and I didn't.
Q Would you not rather have resigned from your office as Deputy Chief of Police, witness? Or was that what you previously termed passive resistance?
A. No, but in any case an order had been issued according to which we had no right to resign from our positions in the Police.
Q Who issued this order?
A That was an order issued by the Government of Tsolakoglou. I will spell the name. T S O L G L O U.
Q That was the official Greek government at that time?
A For me that was not the official Greek government. The official Greek government as far as I was concerned was that of the king, the king himself.
Q But you said just now that you had received orders from this government and that you had to carry these orders out and for this reason you had to remain at your Post?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Witness, from this same Government did you also receive this order? Not to supply the civilian population of Athens with food?
A What was I supposed to do about this food? Where was I to find the food? We didn't have any food. The Army of Occupation should have been the one to see to it that the Greek population should have food. If it pleases the Court, the International Law.
Q Witness, I didn't ask you for that. Something else. You said yesterday that the German so-called hostage cars were placed in front of trains, open cars with wires.
A Would you be more precise about the question please?
Q Witness, you said yesterday that the Germans put in front of railroad trains between Saloniki and Athens, that they put in front of these trains two hostage cars, after that came the engine, then the German cars, and then the remaining cars. Is that right?
A Yes, that's correct with one little mistake which I would like to correct. I didn't say two cars, but I said one or two.
Q Did you at that time and today do you now consider this measure to be right?
A No, I didn't consider it correct. I consider it inhumane.
Q Why did you think it was inhumane?
MR. DENNEY: May your Honor please, I don't think we have to probe the witness' mind about what he thinks about this, whether he was there and what he thinks about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection sustained. It is not cross examination.
Q Witness, don't you think perhaps also that with these hostage care, it was, in any case, prevented that these trains were attacked and I assume that, and I expect you will agree with me, that in the Greek population generally the existence of these hostage cars was known?
A I believe that an Army should fight an Army and not the innocent.
Q May I now ask the Interpreter to read something here? This is a New York Herald Tribune, Paris Edition, for August 13, 1947.
MR. DENNEY: I certainly don't think we are concerned with what the New York Herald Tribune, Paris Edition, for August 13, 1947, has to say about anything.
Q It belongs to the context.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection sustained. Improper cross examination.
Q Witness, you said yesterday that the German, after their entry into Athens, released the Greek soldiers wounded on the Albanian.
front. That is, threw them into the streets?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q That was in the year of 1941?
A Yes.
Q Is it now known to you, witness, that sufficient hospitals for the Greek wounded remained completely untouched?
A I know personally that wounded soldiers with missing arms and legs and thighs found themselves on the sidewalks of the Kifisia Avenue, spelled K-i-f-i-s-i-a.
Q Witness, you didn't answer my question. I will put it more concretely. Into the hospitals into Vofuliagminis/Evangelismnos and of these university hospitals in the center of Athens - do they mean anything to you?
A I don't know anything about Vofuliagminis. I don't even know it. I do know about Evangelismnos, and I know as I stated yesterday that they were left to Greece, a section of it.
Vofuliagminis is spelled V-o-f-u-l-i-a-g-m-i-n-i-s and Evangelismnos is spelled E-v-a-n-g-e-l-i-s-m-n-o-s.
Q You didn't know anything about Vofuliagminis.
A No, I didn't. I don't even believe such a hospital exists.
Q And do you think it possible, witness, that as you are talking about the fact that wounded soldiers had been lying on the streets or been sitting in the streets, Greek wounded, that this was merely a case of transfer from one military hospital to another hospital for organizational reasons?
A No, and I will tell you why because this is not the whole idea and if you want me to I will repeat it to you, Mr. Defense Counsel.
Q I am just being informed that Vofuliagminis is a suburb of Athens on the coast of Glifada.
Witness, you said yesterday that a German soldier spit into the face of the Greek wounded soldiers lying in the street. Did you see that yourself?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors, he did not testify to any such thing yesterday. He testified that a Greek soldier spit into his face and I certainly object to Dr. Mueller-Torgow insinuating that the witness said that.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think the defense counsel misunderstood it, as I recall. Defense counsel, you might ask him what was said.
Q What did you say yesterday, witness? May I ask you to repeat it?
A That is not what I said. I said that a Greek soldier spat into my face, because the Germans had ordered the evacuation of that hospital. The civilian manager in charge of the hospital simply didn't know where to put those wounded soldiers. That was the reason he called up the office, my office, namely, in order to receive help from us. When I went to the hospital myself I saw how these wounded Greeks soldiers were sitting on the laps of the male or female nurses of the hospital.
When I can closer to one of the wounded, in order to calm him down -- of course, I was wearing my uniform at the time -- he spit in my face while saying that the Greek did not, or was not in a position and did not support all those heroes who had fought at the Albanian front and lost their limbs.
After this I met the manager of the hospital, and immediately I hurried to find some space where to put those poor souls. I finally found the school of Marazlion.
Q Witness, that is sufficient.
A I carried these people or had them carried by hand with the help of wheelbarrows.
Q Witness, is it known to you that the German Military Commander in 1941, procured remedies for the benefit of the Greek wounded soldiers, in order to meet an emergency-
MR. DENNEY: Which military commander? There were a lot of them, your Honors -- which of the German Military Commanders?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: The military commander of Southeastern Greece.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Let him answer if he knows.
A I don't know that.
Q Witness, Is it known to you that in October 1941 in Athens a collection for German Greek victims who came under the protectorate of the Archbisho- Damaskines of Athens and Greece took place and that the result was given to the Greek Red Cross for the benefit of the Greek soldiers wounded during this war.
A No, I didn't know anything about it.
Q Witness, I am now returning to the question of the electric supply of Athens. How was Athens supplied with electricity?
A What period of time are you talking about, Mr. Defense Counsel?
Q I am talking about the time from 1941 onwards when the Germans had occupied Greece.
A I don't know.
Q Did the electricity supply of Athens -- was it based on coal or water power?
A You mean -- about the electrical plant of Pyraeus?
Q Yes, the electricity plant in the Pyraeus.
A In any case, it wasn't water.
Q Then I expect it must have been coal.
MR. DENNEY: I object to what Dr. Mueller-Torgow thinks it is and I don't think the witness had been qualified as an engineer. He has gone over the railway problem with him and now we are trying to go over electric power sources. I think there are other ways of testing it.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Your Honors, this question is immediately connected with what the witness said yesterday about the electricity supply in Athens and especially regarding the treatment of the Greek population.
I just want to get to the bottom of things.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may answer the question. He may answer the question.
A I know that the electric plant of the Pyraeus did not work with water. It is possible that either coal or oil was used. In case, I am not an engineer nor am I a mechanic.
Q Witness, please describe to me the general situation in Athens in the summer of 1944, covering the month of July, August and September, from the Police point of view; that is, regarding law and order and security.
A That was a period of time during which the Germans were not in a position to keep order in Athens. Prior to that they permitted that certain discrepancies and troubles amongst the people be eliminated.
Q Would you kindly repeat that? I haven't understood it.
A Because after the Germans had been chased out of Greece every one of those groups wanted to get the honor of having thrown the Germans out.
Q Pardon me, if I interrupt you. I did not ask regarding that period of time. I asked concerning the summer months of 1944 when the Germans were still there. Was it quiet in Athens then or not and, if not, why not?
A I already answered about that. I have told you that immediately after the Germans left; the Germans, of course, were no longer interested in keeping order in Greece there and, as the departure was imminent, of course, they were glad to have trouble which trouble they permitted to happen with pleasure because that would help their withdrawal without too many losses.
Q First of all, you tell me there was unrest there. I didn't know that until now. Now tell me please what Athens looked like at that time.
What those unrests there and who was responsible for this unrest?
A The conditions during all those months were not anything in particular. I mean the situation was not normal in any case.
Q What do you mean by "not normal"? May I ask you to be a little bit more concrete?
A Due to the carelessness on the part of the German occupational forces, the passive resistance movements turned into active resistance and, as I stated before, they wanted to possibly throw the Germans out and received all the honor for doing that work, that job.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will take our afternoon recess at this time.
(A recess was taken)
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Witness, as you told us yesterday, you were for some time director of the Civilian Air Defense for Athens?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Would you please tell me once again when that was exactly.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think this witness has told us that at least three or four times.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Is Athens- was Athens ever bombed?
A The main name of the bombardment was the Pyraeus, but a few bombs did fall on Athens. Exactly what period of time are you talking about, Mr. Defense Counsel?
In general, in the latter part of '44. Athens was bombed toward the end of the occupation, and it was in the Platea, which is the square of Atikis.
Q Was it ever bombed after the German occupation?
A No. After the occupation by the German forces, it was not bombed after that.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I object to this line of questioning about the bombing of Athens after the German forces departed I cannot see it is relevant.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think the objection comes a little late. I think we are getting out of the scopes of this witness' examination.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Witness, how was Athens supplied with water?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors, I do not think we have to go into the Athens water supply either. I object to that. It is irrelevant.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Your Honor, this question belongs to the complexity of the relationship of the German Military authority to the Greek civilian population, which as been frequently the subject of the witness' testimony. The witness has testified several times that the military authorities did not take care of the civilian population of Athens.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: He was not asked in direct about the water system. If you want to show it in defense you can do that, but it is improper to ask this witness about it.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Then I have no further questions.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Are there any further questions by the defense?
... All counsel indicated they had no further questions ...
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Are there any redirect questions?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q When did the Germans come to Athens?
A On the 27th of April 1941.
Q And when did they leave?
A On the 12th of October 1944.
Q During that entire time were there German troops in Athens? That is, between April, 1941 and 12th of October, 1944?
A Yes, there were.
Q Can you give the Tribunal -- withdrawn.
How many German troops, if you know, approximately were there during that period?
A It was absolutely impossible for me to know that, because a very strict secrecy was kept on that number.
Q Did you see Italian troops in Athens during that period?
A Yes, there were Italian troops in Athens during the occupation.
Q Can you tell the Tribunal which troops were there in greater numbers, - the Italians or the Germans.
DR. LATERNSER: As the witness has just said that he does not know how many German troops there were, he also would not know whether there were more Germans or more Italians there. I object to the question.
MR. DENNEY: I have not asked him. He has said he did not know how many Germans, but he can certainly give whether, so far as he saw, there were more Germans, more Italians, or the same number. It is exactly the same question Dr. Laternser asked.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will permit him to answer the question.
A The number of the Italian soldiers there is absolutely unimportant. The important thing is that Greece was mostly occupied by the Germans, and ruled by Germans. As a matter of fact, three times as many Italians as a small German unit didn't mean very much in Greece. The Germans were even stronger and worse.
Q Dr. Laternser has asked you, at least the English translation came over that way, - whether or not you ever collaborated with the Germans, and in order that there may be no doubt in the record, the term "collaboration' as I understand it means one who works hand-in-glove, or works right along with someone.