Q Witness, from this same Government did you also receive this order? Not to supply the civilian population of Athens with food?
A What was I supposed to do about this food? Where was I to find the food? We didn't have any food. The Army of Occupation should have been the one to see to it that the Greek population should have food. If it pleases the Court, the International Law.
Q Witness, I didn't ask you for that. Something else. You said yesterday that the German so-called hostage cars were placed in front of trains, open cars with wires.
A Would you be more precise about the question please?
Q Witness, you said yesterday that the Germans put in front of railroad trains between Saloniki and Athens, that they put in front of these trains two hostage cars, after that came the engine, then the German cars, and then the remaining cars. Is that right?
A Yes, that's correct with one little mistake which I would like to correct. I didn't say two cars, but I said one or two.
Q Did you at that time and today do you now consider this measure to be right?
A No, I didn't consider it correct. I consider it inhumane.
Q Why did you think it was inhumane?
MR. DENNEY: May your Honor please, I don't think we have to probe the witness' mind about what he thinks about this, whether he was there and what he thinks about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection sustained. It is not cross examination.
Q Witness, don't you think perhaps also that with these hostage care, it was, in any case, prevented that these trains were attacked and I assume that, and I expect you will agree with me, that in the Greek population generally the existence of these hostage cars was known?
A I believe that an Army should fight an Army and not the innocent.
Q May I now ask the Interpreter to read something here? This is a New York Herald Tribune, Paris Edition, for August 13, 1947.
MR. DENNEY: I certainly don't think we are concerned with what the New York Herald Tribune, Paris Edition, for August 13, 1947, has to say about anything.
Q It belongs to the context.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection sustained. Improper cross examination.
Q Witness, you said yesterday that the German, after their entry into Athens, released the Greek soldiers wounded on the Albanian.
front. That is, threw them into the streets?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q That was in the year of 1941?
A Yes.
Q Is it now known to you, witness, that sufficient hospitals for the Greek wounded remained completely untouched?
A I know personally that wounded soldiers with missing arms and legs and thighs found themselves on the sidewalks of the Kifisia Avenue, spelled K-i-f-i-s-i-a.
Q Witness, you didn't answer my question. I will put it more concretely. Into the hospitals into Vofuliagminis/Evangelismnos and of these university hospitals in the center of Athens - do they mean anything to you?
A I don't know anything about Vofuliagminis. I don't even know it. I do know about Evangelismnos, and I know as I stated yesterday that they were left to Greece, a section of it.
Vofuliagminis is spelled V-o-f-u-l-i-a-g-m-i-n-i-s and Evangelismnos is spelled E-v-a-n-g-e-l-i-s-m-n-o-s.
Q You didn't know anything about Vofuliagminis.
A No, I didn't. I don't even believe such a hospital exists.
Q And do you think it possible, witness, that as you are talking about the fact that wounded soldiers had been lying on the streets or been sitting in the streets, Greek wounded, that this was merely a case of transfer from one military hospital to another hospital for organizational reasons?
A No, and I will tell you why because this is not the whole idea and if you want me to I will repeat it to you, Mr. Defense Counsel.
Q I am just being informed that Vofuliagminis is a suburb of Athens on the coast of Glifada.
Witness, you said yesterday that a German soldier spit into the face of the Greek wounded soldiers lying in the street. Did you see that yourself?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors, he did not testify to any such thing yesterday. He testified that a Greek soldier spit into his face and I certainly object to Dr. Mueller-Torgow insinuating that the witness said that.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think the defense counsel misunderstood it, as I recall. Defense counsel, you might ask him what was said.
Q What did you say yesterday, witness? May I ask you to repeat it?
A That is not what I said. I said that a Greek soldier spat into my face, because the Germans had ordered the evacuation of that hospital. The civilian manager in charge of the hospital simply didn't know where to put those wounded soldiers. That was the reason he called up the office, my office, namely, in order to receive help from us. When I went to the hospital myself I saw how these wounded Greeks soldiers were sitting on the laps of the male or female nurses of the hospital.
When I can closer to one of the wounded, in order to calm him down -- of course, I was wearing my uniform at the time -- he spit in my face while saying that the Greek did not, or was not in a position and did not support all those heroes who had fought at the Albanian front and lost their limbs.
After this I met the manager of the hospital, and immediately I hurried to find some space where to put those poor souls. I finally found the school of Marazlion.
Q Witness, that is sufficient.
A I carried these people or had them carried by hand with the help of wheelbarrows.
Q Witness, is it known to you that the German Military Commander in 1941, procured remedies for the benefit of the Greek wounded soldiers, in order to meet an emergency-
MR. DENNEY: Which military commander? There were a lot of them, your Honors -- which of the German Military Commanders?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: The military commander of Southeastern Greece.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Let him answer if he knows.
A I don't know that.
Q Witness, Is it known to you that in October 1941 in Athens a collection for German Greek victims who came under the protectorate of the Archbisho- Damaskines of Athens and Greece took place and that the result was given to the Greek Red Cross for the benefit of the Greek soldiers wounded during this war.
A No, I didn't know anything about it.
Q Witness, I am now returning to the question of the electric supply of Athens. How was Athens supplied with electricity?
A What period of time are you talking about, Mr. Defense Counsel?
Q I am talking about the time from 1941 onwards when the Germans had occupied Greece.
A I don't know.
Q Did the electricity supply of Athens -- was it based on coal or water power?
A You mean -- about the electrical plant of Pyraeus?
Q Yes, the electricity plant in the Pyraeus.
A In any case, it wasn't water.
Q Then I expect it must have been coal.
MR. DENNEY: I object to what Dr. Mueller-Torgow thinks it is and I don't think the witness had been qualified as an engineer. He has gone over the railway problem with him and now we are trying to go over electric power sources. I think there are other ways of testing it.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Your Honors, this question is immediately connected with what the witness said yesterday about the electricity supply in Athens and especially regarding the treatment of the Greek population.
I just want to get to the bottom of things.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may answer the question. He may answer the question.
A I know that the electric plant of the Pyraeus did not work with water. It is possible that either coal or oil was used. In case, I am not an engineer nor am I a mechanic.
Q Witness, please describe to me the general situation in Athens in the summer of 1944, covering the month of July, August and September, from the Police point of view; that is, regarding law and order and security.
A That was a period of time during which the Germans were not in a position to keep order in Athens. Prior to that they permitted that certain discrepancies and troubles amongst the people be eliminated.
Q Would you kindly repeat that? I haven't understood it.
A Because after the Germans had been chased out of Greece every one of those groups wanted to get the honor of having thrown the Germans out.
Q Pardon me, if I interrupt you. I did not ask regarding that period of time. I asked concerning the summer months of 1944 when the Germans were still there. Was it quiet in Athens then or not and, if not, why not?
A I already answered about that. I have told you that immediately after the Germans left; the Germans, of course, were no longer interested in keeping order in Greece there and, as the departure was imminent, of course, they were glad to have trouble which trouble they permitted to happen with pleasure because that would help their withdrawal without too many losses.
Q First of all, you tell me there was unrest there. I didn't know that until now. Now tell me please what Athens looked like at that time.
What those unrests there and who was responsible for this unrest?
A The conditions during all those months were not anything in particular. I mean the situation was not normal in any case.
Q What do you mean by "not normal"? May I ask you to be a little bit more concrete?
A Due to the carelessness on the part of the German occupational forces, the passive resistance movements turned into active resistance and, as I stated before, they wanted to possibly throw the Germans out and received all the honor for doing that work, that job.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will take our afternoon recess at this time.
(A recess was taken)
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Witness, as you told us yesterday, you were for some time director of the Civilian Air Defense for Athens?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Would you please tell me once again when that was exactly.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think this witness has told us that at least three or four times.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Is Athens- was Athens ever bombed?
A The main name of the bombardment was the Pyraeus, but a few bombs did fall on Athens. Exactly what period of time are you talking about, Mr. Defense Counsel?
In general, in the latter part of '44. Athens was bombed toward the end of the occupation, and it was in the Platea, which is the square of Atikis.
Q Was it ever bombed after the German occupation?
A No. After the occupation by the German forces, it was not bombed after that.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I object to this line of questioning about the bombing of Athens after the German forces departed I cannot see it is relevant.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think the objection comes a little late. I think we are getting out of the scopes of this witness' examination.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Witness, how was Athens supplied with water?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors, I do not think we have to go into the Athens water supply either. I object to that. It is irrelevant.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Your Honor, this question belongs to the complexity of the relationship of the German Military authority to the Greek civilian population, which as been frequently the subject of the witness' testimony. The witness has testified several times that the military authorities did not take care of the civilian population of Athens.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: He was not asked in direct about the water system. If you want to show it in defense you can do that, but it is improper to ask this witness about it.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Then I have no further questions.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Are there any further questions by the defense?
... All counsel indicated they had no further questions ...
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Are there any redirect questions?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q When did the Germans come to Athens?
A On the 27th of April 1941.
Q And when did they leave?
A On the 12th of October 1944.
Q During that entire time were there German troops in Athens? That is, between April, 1941 and 12th of October, 1944?
A Yes, there were.
Q Can you give the Tribunal -- withdrawn.
How many German troops, if you know, approximately were there during that period?
A It was absolutely impossible for me to know that, because a very strict secrecy was kept on that number.
Q Did you see Italian troops in Athens during that period?
A Yes, there were Italian troops in Athens during the occupation.
Q Can you tell the Tribunal which troops were there in greater numbers, - the Italians or the Germans.
DR. LATERNSER: As the witness has just said that he does not know how many German troops there were, he also would not know whether there were more Germans or more Italians there. I object to the question.
MR. DENNEY: I have not asked him. He has said he did not know how many Germans, but he can certainly give whether, so far as he saw, there were more Germans, more Italians, or the same number. It is exactly the same question Dr. Laternser asked.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will permit him to answer the question.
A The number of the Italian soldiers there is absolutely unimportant. The important thing is that Greece was mostly occupied by the Germans, and ruled by Germans. As a matter of fact, three times as many Italians as a small German unit didn't mean very much in Greece. The Germans were even stronger and worse.
Q Dr. Laternser has asked you, at least the English translation came over that way, - whether or not you ever collaborated with the Germans, and in order that there may be no doubt in the record, the term "collaboration' as I understand it means one who works hand-in-glove, or works right along with someone.
Did you ever collaborate with the Germans?
PRESIDENT WENNERSTURM: May I interrupt just a minute. The Tribunal will be in recess at this time until reconvened, because of the fact that the recording is not functioning, and it will be necessary to repair it before we can proceed. With the consent of Judge Carter, who is presiding, the Tribunal will be in recess until reconvened.
... The Court recessed until 1540 hours ...
MR. DENNEY: If it please your Honors, I withdraw the last question. Dr. Laternser has spoken with me during the recess and has said that the term that he used, which was translated to the English as "collaborator" merely was one which was meant to indicate that he kept on working and that he did not imply any collaboration in the question.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Very well.
MR. DENNEY: I have no further questions, your Honor.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: Are there any further questions by the defense?
... Defense counsel indicated they had no further questions ...
MR. DENNEY: We request that the witness be excused, if your Honors please. I am sorry, I thought the Tribunal had no questions.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: The witness will be excused, subject however, to the possibility that he might be recalled. He will be excused for the time being.
... Witness excused ...
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honors please, I ask that the Marshal be directed to call the witness Costas Triandaphylidis.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: The Marshal will produce the witness.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honors please, this witness will testify to the regular military organization of one of the two major partisan organizations in Greece. I think it might be helpful if your Honors had this map of Greece before you, since there are many place names on it, and the witness will have occasion to refer to it.
PRESIDING JUSTICE CARTER: The witness will stand and be sworn. The interpreter will stand and interpret for him, please. -2069
COSTAS TRIANDAPHYLIDIS, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT: Repeat after me: I swear to speak the truth and only the truth, in reply to whatever I am asked without fear and without prejudice.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. What is your name?
A. Constantinos Triandifilidis.
Q. How old are you?
A. I am 40.
Q. And where were you born?
A. In Constantinople.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Have you any children?
A. No, no children.
Q. What is your educational background?
A. I finished the French College and I stayed in the University of Athens for a period of three years.
Q. Have you travelled very much?
A. Not very much but officially anyway.
Q. What is your present profession?
A. I'm a newspaper man.
Q. For what newspaper?
A. I am the manager of Ethnikifloge, and I am also cooperating with other newspapers, namely, the Ellinikonema and Estia.
Q. Where is that newspaper published?
A. In Athens.
Q. What's its circulation today?
A. Approximately 20,000 for the Ethnikifloge.
Q. Do you live in Athens?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your occupation prior to the war between Greece and Italy?
A. I was a newspaperman at the time also. I was a newspaperman since 1933.
Q. Did you cover the Greek-Italian war in the course of your business as a newspaperman?
A. I was working on the Albanian Front from the very first day of the battle against the Italians until the 20th of April 1941.
Q. And what did you do on the 20th of April 1941?
A. I returned to Athens when it was quite apparent that the Greek armies would capitulate.
Q. Did you continue to work on your newspaper after the German occupation of Athens?
A. From the second day of the German occupation on, namely the 28th of April 1941, the Germans closed the newspaper where I used to work. Then that newspaper was Asyrmatos. And from that day on I didn't work with any other legal paper which was circulating regularly.
Q. Did you have any other job during the German occupation?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And how were you able to live? What money did you get?
A. As the staff of newspapermen was out of a job from that time on, the building where those newspapers were published, the organization of the Greek journalists sold the building and it was from that money that we received certain allowances.
Q. Witness, will you tell the Tribunal very briefly what you did during the period April 1941 until May 1943?
A. It was the summer of 1941 that I was informed that a former Greek officer, Colonel Zervas, intended to organize a certain Greek organization which would fight the German invaders by sabotaging.
Q. Did you talk to Colonel Zervas? Did you talk to Colonel Zervas who was forming a different organization to fight the Germans?
A. I tried to speak to him, but it was rather difficult because he had been arrested by both the Germans and the Italians on several occasions. That is, they had nothing definite that they could prove. He was again released. It was towards August 1941 that I finally succeeded in seeing him.
Q. And did you, talk over the plans of Zervas' organization with him at that time?
A. They did have the intention of--- I finally succeeded in talking to him and he told me that the staff needed a staff of correspondents who could possibly convey messages and information to secret papers and other publications. That is, to publish that information. And what I was mainly interested in was to know whether they would form an organization which would fight against the invaders. I wanted to know if the organizations which were to be set up were going to be military and not fighting organizations.
Q. Did you join Colonel Zervas' organization at that time?
A. Colonel Zervas assured me that he intended to set up such military guerilla units and that he would proceed to establish them, and I joined him and his organization.
Q. What did you do for the organization during the period April 1941 until May 1943?
A. I saw to the printing and circulation of leaflets - flypapers and later on I also helped with publishing a secret paper.
Q. Was there great personal risk involved to you in doing that for the organization?
A. There was an order which had been issued by the German authorities according to which the circulation and printing of such leaflets would result in death. The Italians had issued a similar order.
Q. What did you do, witness, during the period May 1943 until March 1944?
A. That is, of course, I agreed to do the printing of those newspapers. I had to go up to the mountains to go with the other units. As a result of this I met several military commanders, and finally Zervas himself.
Q. Were you up in the mountains the whole time during this period May 1943 until March 1944?
A. No, I wasn't. I only stayed there for a short while, and then I would return to Athens in order to continue the publication of those leaflets.
Q. From what sources did you get the information which you used in your leaflets?
A I gathered my information from the general information which we were receiving in Athens. As far as the information was concerned with reference to the fighting which was going on in the mountains, I received that either from detachments which would cone down towards Athens, or either on the spot examination from troops commanded in Athens, and those detachments which were receiving the information from messengers who were coming down from the mountains.
Q While you were in the mountains during this period May 1943 until March 1944, did you see any battles yourself between the Germans and the Zervas' units?
A Personally I only heard about it in October 1943. I was present also in the fighting during the first phase of the struggle which took place near Tsoumerka. And that was during the first phase of the struggle between the Germans and our guerrilla, forces, and the Zervas forces.
Q. Did you talk to Zervas?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you see the report which came in to him from his units in the field?
A Yes. It was natural because I had to see that in order to go down to Athens and print it.
Q Did you talk to members of Zervas' organization?
A Yes, I did. I spoke to many of them.
Q Did you circulate among the villages and talk to the population in the areas, in the areas in which the Zervas units were operating?
A Yes, I did repeatedly and in many villages during the period May 1943 until March 1944.
Q Were the Zervas forces subordinated to any higher headquarters?
A Yes, they were under or subordinated to the Chief Command of the Middle East.
Q Did you see the reports which Zervas sent to these Middle East headquarters?
A Yes, repeatedly. Those messages were being sent by radio, by wireless, and I also watched the transmission of such a message.
Q Where were you, Witness, during the period March 1944 until October 1944?
A I was together with the forces of Colonel Zervas in the mountains.
Q During that whole period?
A No, only with the exception of one week during which time I had to return to Athens, but I returned to the mountains immediately after that.
Q Where were you during the period October 1944 until February 1945?
A I was following the operation of Colonel Zervas' troops as the chief of the printing department of his forces.
Q And where were you from the period February 1945 until the present time?
A I was in Athens, where I was carrying on my profession.
Q Is it correct, Witness, to say then that during the period April 1941 until May 1943 you were largely in Athens publishing underground leaflets and pamphlets?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And that during the period May 1943 until March 1944 you were up in the mountains, and back in Athens at various periods?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And from March 1944 until February 1945 you were in the mountains with Colonel Zervas' units publishing propaganda on behalf of his organization?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And from February 1945 until the present time you have been publishing a newspaper in Athens?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q What was the name of Zervas's organization?
A The name of that organization - the political name was National Democratic Hero Organization, or EDES.
Q How long have you been associated with that EDES Organization?
A I was there since the establishment of the organization until the end of the conflict, from the day when I visited the Colonel until the end of the conflict.
Q That is to say, from the summer of 1941 until the Germans withdrew from Greece in October 1944?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Were you a friend of the head of the organization, Colonel Zervas, himself?
A Yes, undoubtedly. I'm one of his closest collaborators.
Q Now, Witness, I want to ask you some questions about this EDES organization, of which you were a member from the summer of 1941 until the German withdrawal in October 1944. When would you say this organization first began?
A In the summer of 1941 the first preparations were made for the establishment of the organization and on the 9th of September the official establishment took place.
Q Where was Colonel Zervas at that time, on the 9th of September 1941?
A In Athens.
Q Did the occupying forces know that he was forming a resistance movement?
A They knew that he was one of the strongest and most active Greek elements; however, they did not know exactly what they were going to do.
Q Was he ever arrested by the occupying police authorities?
A In the month of July 1942 he was arrested four or five times.
Q Was he released on each occasion?
A Yes, he was released on every occasion, but after he was arrested four or five tines he was compelled to go and report to the occupying authorities every day.