Q Did Colonel Zervas ever leave Athens?
A You mean during this period of title of the summer 1941 and July 1942?
Q Yes.
A No, during that period of time he didn't.
Q When did he leave Athens?
A He left Athens on the 23rd of July secretly while being chased by both the Germans and the Italians.
Q On the 23rd of July of what year?
A 1942.
Q And where did he go on the 23rd of July 1942 when he left Athens?
A He went to the region of Valto southeast of Epirus, at least at the northern borders of Epirus.
Q Where is the Epirus section of Greece?
A Epirus comprises the entire northwestern section of Greece.
Q Why did Colonel Zervas choose Epirus as the German territory to which he would go when he left Athens?
A The main occupying force at the time were the Italians and their line of communication to Italy ran along through the Epirus, then through Albania, then to Pavlon which was the port there and across to Bari.
Q What did Colonel Zervas intend to do in that territory?
A Col. Zervas wanted to organize a force which would be in a position during the critical period of the campaign, which he expected would come soon, to interrupt that line of communication.
Q Witness, have you ever seen all the records and reports and orders which were issued by the EDES organization?
A The records and whatever else might be of interest are in my hands. They were given me by the Colonel, Colonel Zervas, in March 1944 to enable me to write the story of the organization.
Q Are you writing this story of the organization now?
A Yes, the first part was already published in the paper which I am printing and it will also be printed in a book.
Q What period of time would you say constituted the first period of the EDES organization?
A You mean of the organization EDES as a military organization?
Q Yes.
A It comprised the period of time between the end of July 1942 and the 10th of November 1942.
Q You say it occupied the period beginning with July 1942 because that is the day when Zervas left Athens for the mountains?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q During that first period, July 1942 until November 1942, how many men were there in the EDES organization?
A You mean of the guerilla forces?
Q Yes.
AAs of the 23rd of October, 1942, which was where the first fight took place between the Greeks and the Italians, that unit included together with Col. Zervas 98 persons.
Q And what was the military strength of the organization during that first period July 1942 to November 1942?
A The military structure consisted of the following. First of all there was one commander who was Zervas himself. Then there were several smaller units which were led either by officers who had come and joined the group up in the mountains or then farmers who had shown their ability to lead men in battle.
Q Did the officers wear a uniform.
A Yes, they had brought along with them secretly the uniforms which they still had from the war against the Italians.
Q You mean the regular Greek army uniform that they used in the war against the Italians?
A Yes, that is correct, the normal Greek officer's uniforms.
Q What did the men who were not officers wear?
A Some of them were wearing civilian clothes. Others again were wearing policemen's uniforms or they were policemen who had joined us, and others again were wearing the normal Greek soldier uniform which they had kept from the end of the war against the Italians.
Q Was there any particular insignia worn by those men?
A Yes, the officers were wearing the regular Greek insignia. The policemen were wearing their uniforms and the civilians weren't wearing anything at all of course, just their civilian clothes.
Q You are now talking about the first period July 1942 until November 1942?
A Yes.
Q Did Zervas ever change his rank from a colonel to another rank?
A We used to call him the commander of an army of a military group, a general anyway, but in 1944 the Greek government, in cooperation with the Middle East forces, finally promoted him to Brigadier General.
Q Did the occupying forces do anything when Zervas left Athens in July 1942?
AAll the units were organized and all the police units were alarmed in order to catch him and roads were blocked off but they didn't succeed in catching him.
Q Did they offer a reward for information concerning his whereabouts?
A It was the end of November at which time -- after November 1942, at which time the bridge of Neopotamios had been blown up, namely on the 25th of November 1942, they offered 100 million drachmas in food or money for whoever would give information to lead to his arrest.
Q Did you see posters to that effect?
A Yes, thousands of those leaflets had been distributed all over Greece, Athens, and the streets of Athens.
Q Witness, when was the first battle fought by the Zervas organization?
A From the 23rd of October until the 10th of November, in the region of Skoulikarias, 1941.
Q And against whom was that battle fought?
AAgainst four Italian battalions.
Q How many men did the Zervas organization have during that battle?
A 98 men.
Q Witness, when would you say the next period in the history of the EDES organization comprised?
A That is approximately for the period of the 10th of November, at which time they loft to blow up the bridge of Neopotamios until December 1942.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until ninethirty to-morrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 16 August 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Wilhelm List, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 16 August 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V. Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, have you ascertained whether all the defendants are present in the Courtroom?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all the defendants are present in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed on behalf of the prosecution.
CONSTANTINOS TRIANDAPHYLIDIS - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Witness -
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me just a moment. I wonder if the lady could move back a little bit. I like to see the face of the witness.
GREEK INTERPRETER ANAGNOSTOPOULOS: Excuse me, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: That is all right. Maybe you can move over a little closer. That is better. Just move over a little bit. Personally, I like to see the witness. It's very agreeable to look at you but I also like to look at the witness.
Q Witness, yesterday afternoon you testified about your personal participation in the EDES movement in the summer of 1941 until the end of 1944. You testified that you were in effect the historian of the EDES movement. Is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q You also testified that in the beginning you published in Athens underground leaflets and pamphlets in favor of the EDES movement during the organization period.
A Yes, that is correct.
Q That you made trips back and forth between Athens and the mountains in order to gain information to put into the pamphlets and leaflets.
A Yes.
Q And that on those trips you talked with the leader of the movement, General Zervas, with his troops, and as a trained professional newspaper man, you also talked with the inhabitants on the villages in the Epiros area of Greece in which the EDES forces operated.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And am I correct that you also said that the reports which General Zervas issued to his men, the reports which he received from his subordinates and the bulletins or reports on EDES activities which he in turn sent on to British Middle East Headquarters in Cairo. Is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. At the close of yesterday's session we talked briefly about the history of the EDES organization and you testified that the first period of the movement covered the period from July 1942 when General Zervas first went into the mountains of the Epires until November 1942 when he and his men fought their first battles against the Italian occupations forces?
A Yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me just a moment. I am making the inquiry for purposes of the record and wondering as to whether or not the Greek that is being spoken by the lady interpreter will be picked up by the sound recording system. She is not speaking very loud. Is it the desire or the purpose or is it necessary that the Greek be carried on the sound recording system?
GREEK INTERPRETER ANAGNOSTOPOLOS: If you wish I can speak louder. I have not because I thought it would disturb and I thought it was not necessary, but if you wish I can speak louder.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute. We will find out.
MONITOR: Your Honor, the English questions and the English answers are on the sound track.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, I think all we need on the sound track is the English question and the English answer and the Greek need not be put on the sound track.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
GREEK INTERPRETER ANAGNOSTOPOULOS: Do you want me to speak louder?
THE PRESIDENT: Not necessarily.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Witness, who was this man, Zervas, the head of the EDES organization? What was his military background?
A During the war, between 1912 and 1913 Zervas went into the army and was wounded twice while fighting the Turks and later on he became a sergeant of the Evzones which is our elite troop in Greece, by graduating from the military school of Epision, and he left as a second lieutenant of the school. He entered the school as sergeant and he left as a second lieutenant.
During the first World War he joined a French company. With his company he joined the French Army and he received the Legion d'honneur and the Soldiers' Cross, the Military Cross. At the end of the war he became a Regiment Commander, a Major, and he fought as a Major in Asia Minor against the Turks whereupon later on he was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel, from Major to Lieutenant Colonel, and he was dismissed as a Colonel.
He was known for his democratic ideas in Greece and he was also known as being a friend of France and England.
Q Was he in the Greek Army at the time of the Italian war?
A No, he didn't serve in the Greek Army during the war, although he had desired to serve.
Q Now, witness, turning again to the first period in the movement which covered the period of time, July 1942 until November 1942, will you tell us again how many men Zervas had in the EDES organization?
A In the political organization in the Athens area alone, they had 15,000 men whereas on the 23rd of October -- and I am talking now about the Guerillas when they fought the Germans -- they were 98 men including Zervas.
Q Into what kind of units were these 98 men divided?
A Due to the small number of men in that group, it consisted of only one group which was separated into smaller units, due to the circumstances.
Q Were there officers among those 98 men?
A On the 23rd of October they had 7 officers with them.
Q. There were Zervas' headquarters in the mountains at this time?
A. Zervas' headquarters were in the village of Megalochari, which is also called Botsi.
Q. Is that near the Tannina, the Epiros section?
A. It is in the most southern area. If you want to, you may call it Canton Artd.
Q. Now, witness, what was the next period in the EDES organization?
A. That is the period of time in which they got in contact with the British officers, between the 10th of November 1942 and December 1942.
Q. How many men were in Zervas' organization during that period of time?
A. After the period of time of the 25th of November, at which they had blown up the Bridge of Gorgapotamos, they had receive more men from the villages and the whole number towards December numbered between 500 and 600 men.
Q. Into what kind of units were they divided?
A. At that time they started compiling the men and organizing them into commands, who commanded smaller groups.
Q. How many men were in a command?
A. Every command had from between 150 to 200 men.
Q. And how were these, between 500 and 600 men organized? Were there officers?
A. Most of the groups were led by officers but there were also smaller members who were also in charge of groups -- younger members, farmers who had distinguished themselves in leadership and who also became commanders of the groups.
Q. Did the officers wear uniforms?
A. All officers were wearing their old Greek uniforms.
Q. Did they wear insignia of rank?
A. Yes, at all times.
Q. Was the rank of a lieutenant, for example, different from that of a colonel? Was the insignia of rank of the lieutenant different from that of a colonel?
A. Yes, absolutely.
Q. Now, the rest of the men in the EDES organization at that time, did they wear uniforms?
A. In December the British started throwing supplies by parachute, amongst which you could also find uniforms; thus, a large number, or quite a few of those guerrilla forces, could wear British uniforms.
Q. Can you estimate what percentage of the men wore uniforms at that time?
A. Approximately 30 percent.
Q. Did these men wear insignia?
A. At that time, during that period, they were wearing the initials of the EDES, E D E S.
Q. Where did they wear those initials?
A. Either on their hat or on their arm -- on their cap or on their arm.
Q. What color were they?
A. Usually they were white letters on black background.
Q. From about what distance away could these letters be seen?
A. From between 20 to 25 yards.
Q. And the uniforms of the officers, from about what distance away could they be seen?
A. From quite some distance, I would say about 150 yards.
Q. Now, turning again to the ordinary soldiers in the EDES movement, did they make their own insignia or was it manufactured and produced and given to them by someone else?
A. During the first period of their activity, there was no way of having those insignias manufactured.
Therefore, they made them themselves.
Q. Now, during this second period in the EDES organization, witness, the period from 10 November 1942 until December 1942, what significant military events took place.
A. On the 10th of November, while battle against Italians was still going on, the British Major Christopher Woodhouse, arrived in Argiri, and he asked the commander of that army, Zervas, to help, together with his men, by going to Lemea to blow up the Bridge of Gorgapotamos. On the 25th of November the bridge was blown up. After That Zervas, together with those British officers, returned to the Epiros area where, during the entire period of December, the battle against the Italians was carried on.
Q. Were the British impressed by your blowing up the Gorgapptamos Bridge?
A. Immediately after the blowing up of the bridge, we were to receive both supplies --- we received supplies and arms -- and at the same time the order of the British Empire was to be given to General Zervas.
Q. Did the British also send you uniforms following the blowing up of the bridge?
A. Yes, immediately they sent us also uniforms.
Q. When was the next period in the EDES organization, witness?
A. It's approximately from the end of December or early in January until July or March, to be sure, July 1943.
Q. How many men did you have in your organization during that period?
A. In March we had approximately from 3,000 to 4,000 men and in July that number had increased to between 6,000 to 7,000 men.
Q. What was the military organization or structure during that period.
How were you organized?
A. Until March the same structure with commands was kept and later on, between the period between March and July, although the commands were kept, also regiments, battalions and companies were organized.
Q Were there also independent groups in your organizations?
A Yes, we had left a few smaller groups with the farmers because they had become tired; they had distinguished themselves in the battle with the enemy.
Q Did you officers wear uniforms during that period?
A Yes, all of the officers were wearing uniforms.
Q What color was the uniform?
A It was a regular khaki as used by the British army.
Q Did the officers wear their insignia of rank on their uniform?
A Yes, at all times.
Q The ordinary soldiers, during that period of time, did they wear a uniform?
A By July all of the soldiers were wearing British uniforms, with the exception of perhaps 15 to 20 per cent; they remained and were joining the group, and the new ones who were not wearing any uniforms.
Q What color was the uniform, that the ordinary soldier wore?
A They were also khaki British uniforms.
Q Did you wear the EDES insignia on those uniforms?
A Yes.
Q Was the EDES movement confined to the entire section of Greece during this period, witness?
A The main force and the headquarters were in Epiros. There were also smaller groups which were in West Thessalia, and also in Etoloakarnania.
Q Witness, tell us about those 15 to 20 percent of the men who you say were not in uniforms during that period. Did they wear insignia?
A Yes, at that period of time they were all wearing insignia.
Q What insignia did they wear?
QQuite a few of them, as they did not have any uniforms at all, were wearing an arm band, a blue and white arm band with the letter EDES on it.
Q During the period from March, 1943, until July 1943, how many men did you have in the EDES organization?
A From 3 to 4 thousand at first, and they increased to between 6 and 7 thousand later on.
Q Where were General Zervas headquarters at this time?
AAs Zervas and his groups were in repeated operations against the Italians, they moved their headquarters about in various villages of west Epiros, and also around the area of -- east of Epiros, and also in the area of Etoloakarnania, and West Thessalia.
Q Were you in the mountains yourself during this period of March to July 1943 at any time?
A Yes, on two occasions, in May and July.
Q Did you speak to Zervas on those occasions?
A No, I did not meet him.
Q Did you talk to the inhabitants of the villages through which you passed?
A Yes. I also spoke with the commanders of the small groups of Zervas army.
Q Did you see any battles?
A In May I saw an attack against the Italian column on the road between Jannina and Arta, and in July I saw another one in the area between Anfanifilothia and Arta.
Q Was there a time, witness, when the EDES insignia no longer continued to be used?
A On the 23rd of July, 1943, an order was issued, according to which the letters, or initials rather, of EDES, were changed in to EOEA.
Q What did those letters, EOEA stand for?
A They stood for, "Greek National Guerilla Band."
Q How many commands did you have during this period?
A In July we had approximately between 8 and 10 commands.
Q How many regiments?
A Between 20 and 22 regiments.
Q How many battalions?
A Between 40 and 45 battalions.
Q How many companies?
A Between 80 and 90 companies.
Q Did you also have platoons?
A Yes, there were also platoons.
Q Witness, what significant military event took place during this period from the end of December, 1942, until about July 1943?
A During all that period of time the struggle against Italian forces, which were still holding the Epiros, was increased. Between May and June there was no doubt any more left, that the Italians could not hold the Epiros. During the period of time of the 20th of June and the first of July, certain German units started moving from Albania through Lesgoviki, and entered Green territory, or were on Greek territory in Komitsa. On the 10th of July, those German units attacked our command in West Epiros -- of Western Epiros.
That is how at the same time, the battle against the Germans started. In the meantime, the Italian divisions were trying to withdraw their troops on the roads between Arta and into Albania. They were trying to leave Greece by going into Albania.
Between the 10th and the 20th of July, Zervas' command of Valtos, finally smashed up the Italian division called, "Brenner" and pushed them back into the region of Makrinoros. The 23rd of July is a historical date. It was on that date that an agreement was signed between all Guerilla bands.
The common headquarters for all Guerilla bands was established, and that was in Pertouli in Thessalia.
Q What was the next period in the history of the EDES organization witness?
A From the end of July until early in October.
Q Were you yourself in the mountains of Epiros during that period?
A Yes, I went to the mountains between the middle of September until the 20th of October.
Q Did you see Zervas at that time?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you see any of the reports which came to him from his units in the field?
A Yes, he showed me all the reports, and he also showed me the telegrams which had been passed on between his headquarters, - him and the headquarters in the Middle East.
Q Did you see any battles during that period?
A I followed the first phase of the battle of Teowmieka.
Q How many men were in your organization during that period from July 1943 until October 1943?
AAccording to the reports, and on the 7th of October, 1943, the total of Zervas forces in Greece amounted to between 15 and 16 thousand men.
Q How were those men organized? What was the military structure of the organization?
AAccording to the agreement of the 23rd of July, under the tutorship of British officers, they had decided that all of the Guerilla forces were to be combined into a Military Organization, according to which agreement this Guerilla band was to be organized according to Greek army principles, namely, it should consist of army corps, divisions, regiments, battalions, companies and platoons.
Q What were the various ranks of officers during that period?
A The ranks varied from between Brigadier General to 2nd Lieut. namely, Brigadier General, Colonel, Lt. Colonel, Major, Captain, 1st Lt. and 2nd Lt.
Q Did the officers wear uniforms?
A Yes, all officers were wearing uniforms.
Q What kind of uniforms?
A Most of the officers were wearing British uniforms. Other officers, again, out of sentimental reasons, were offered on the old Green uniform.
Q The non-officers, ordinary soldiers did they wear uniforms?
AAll of them were now wearing the British battle dress.
Q Who was your enemy during the period, July 1943 until October 1943?
A Mainly, first, the Italians. Later on the Germans were added, and from the end of July on we only had the Germans to take care of.
Q Do you know which particular German units you fought against during that period?
A Mainly and fundamentally we were fighting against the 1st German Mountain Division.
Q Did you know which corps that first Mountain Division belonged to?
A I didn't know at the beginning when those first mountain divisions entered the Greek area, which army corps it belonged to, but in August and onward it belonged to the 22nd German Army Corps.
Q Do you know who commanded that corps?
A General Hubert Lanz.
Q Witness, you said that in July, 1943, there was an agreement between the Guerilla organization?
A Yes. Yes, that's correct.
Q Did the Allied forces recognize the Guerilla forces operating in Greece at that time?
A Only EDES units as of December, 1942 were considered and recognized by the Headquarters and the Command of the Middle East to be regular units of the Middle East Forces.
As of 23 July 1943, all the Guerilla bands were recognized as part of the Middle East forces. At least those that had signed the agreement.
Q Do you know whether that recognition was broadcast over the London radio?
A Yes, as this incident was of great importance for Greece, the message, or the broadcast took place by radio Cairo which is closer to Greece and the Balkans and can be heard better, and also through the broadcasting station of BBC London.
Q From July 1943 on you were recognized as a regular army. Did your organization have supply services?
A Yes, there was a supply service already as far back as September, 1942. As of July, 1943, it became a regular army supply line.
Q Did you have communication services?
A Yes, we had installed telephone connections at all of the villages of our area.
Q Were there engineering units attached to the regular army?
A Yes indeed, we had our own engineering office.
Q Did you have intelligence services and medical services?
A Yes indeed, we did. Not only did we have those two services for ourselves, for the Guerilla bands, but also for the villages and their inhabitants.
Q Did you set up certain schools in the villages in whose areas you were operating?
A From 1941 and onwards all the schools had been closed, I mean the mountain schools in the mountain villages, because the teachers were not getting paid. We opened up all our schools compulsorily, and in these certain areas where we were, in the villages which we were occupying.
Q Did you have artillery units in your organization?
A In July 1943 we did have artillery. We had artillery even prior to that time. But in July 1943 we had those Italian guns which we had captured in the Battle of Makrinoros. But prior to that we didn't have any guns and finally when we had exhausted our supplied of guns which we had captured there and our shells, we received American guns in May 1944.
Q Did you have any airplanes?
A No, we didn't.
Q Witness, what was the next period in the EDES organization?
A October 1943 to March 1944 was the following period.
Q How many men did you have during that period?
A Several battles were taking place in all those areas which we were occupying, and the result was heavy losses for us. After the long battle which lasted between October and March was exhausted, the Epiros forces in that area amounted to between three and four thousand men.
Q Did you have the same military structure as you had in the earlier period?
A Yes, we did. We kept the same military structure during the period of time during which this battle lasted.
Q Did you have officers?
A Yes, of course. We had the same officers.
Q Were they in uniform?