Q. Did they wear insignia of rank?
A. Yes, at all times.
Q. Was the rank of a lieutenant, for example, different from that of a colonel? Was the insignia of rank of the lieutenant different from that of a colonel?
A. Yes, absolutely.
Q. Now, the rest of the men in the EDES organization at that time, did they wear uniforms?
A. In December the British started throwing supplies by parachute, amongst which you could also find uniforms; thus, a large number, or quite a few of those guerrilla forces, could wear British uniforms.
Q. Can you estimate what percentage of the men wore uniforms at that time?
A. Approximately 30 percent.
Q. Did these men wear insignia?
A. At that time, during that period, they were wearing the initials of the EDES, E D E S.
Q. Where did they wear those initials?
A. Either on their hat or on their arm -- on their cap or on their arm.
Q. What color were they?
A. Usually they were white letters on black background.
Q. From about what distance away could these letters be seen?
A. From between 20 to 25 yards.
Q. And the uniforms of the officers, from about what distance away could they be seen?
A. From quite some distance, I would say about 150 yards.
Q. Now, turning again to the ordinary soldiers in the EDES movement, did they make their own insignia or was it manufactured and produced and given to them by someone else?
A. During the first period of their activity, there was no way of having those insignias manufactured.
Therefore, they made them themselves.
Q. Now, during this second period in the EDES organization, witness, the period from 10 November 1942 until December 1942, what significant military events took place.
A. On the 10th of November, while battle against Italians was still going on, the British Major Christopher Woodhouse, arrived in Argiri, and he asked the commander of that army, Zervas, to help, together with his men, by going to Lemea to blow up the Bridge of Gorgapotamos. On the 25th of November the bridge was blown up. After That Zervas, together with those British officers, returned to the Epiros area where, during the entire period of December, the battle against the Italians was carried on.
Q. Were the British impressed by your blowing up the Gorgapptamos Bridge?
A. Immediately after the blowing up of the bridge, we were to receive both supplies --- we received supplies and arms -- and at the same time the order of the British Empire was to be given to General Zervas.
Q. Did the British also send you uniforms following the blowing up of the bridge?
A. Yes, immediately they sent us also uniforms.
Q. When was the next period in the EDES organization, witness?
A. It's approximately from the end of December or early in January until July or March, to be sure, July 1943.
Q. How many men did you have in your organization during that period?
A. In March we had approximately from 3,000 to 4,000 men and in July that number had increased to between 6,000 to 7,000 men.
Q. What was the military organization or structure during that period.
How were you organized?
A. Until March the same structure with commands was kept and later on, between the period between March and July, although the commands were kept, also regiments, battalions and companies were organized.
Q Were there also independent groups in your organizations?
A Yes, we had left a few smaller groups with the farmers because they had become tired; they had distinguished themselves in the battle with the enemy.
Q Did you officers wear uniforms during that period?
A Yes, all of the officers were wearing uniforms.
Q What color was the uniform?
A It was a regular khaki as used by the British army.
Q Did the officers wear their insignia of rank on their uniform?
A Yes, at all times.
Q The ordinary soldiers, during that period of time, did they wear a uniform?
A By July all of the soldiers were wearing British uniforms, with the exception of perhaps 15 to 20 per cent; they remained and were joining the group, and the new ones who were not wearing any uniforms.
Q What color was the uniform, that the ordinary soldier wore?
A They were also khaki British uniforms.
Q Did you wear the EDES insignia on those uniforms?
A Yes.
Q Was the EDES movement confined to the entire section of Greece during this period, witness?
A The main force and the headquarters were in Epiros. There were also smaller groups which were in West Thessalia, and also in Etoloakarnania.
Q Witness, tell us about those 15 to 20 percent of the men who you say were not in uniforms during that period. Did they wear insignia?
A Yes, at that period of time they were all wearing insignia.
Q What insignia did they wear?
QQuite a few of them, as they did not have any uniforms at all, were wearing an arm band, a blue and white arm band with the letter EDES on it.
Q During the period from March, 1943, until July 1943, how many men did you have in the EDES organization?
A From 3 to 4 thousand at first, and they increased to between 6 and 7 thousand later on.
Q Where were General Zervas headquarters at this time?
AAs Zervas and his groups were in repeated operations against the Italians, they moved their headquarters about in various villages of west Epiros, and also around the area of -- east of Epiros, and also in the area of Etoloakarnania, and West Thessalia.
Q Were you in the mountains yourself during this period of March to July 1943 at any time?
A Yes, on two occasions, in May and July.
Q Did you speak to Zervas on those occasions?
A No, I did not meet him.
Q Did you talk to the inhabitants of the villages through which you passed?
A Yes. I also spoke with the commanders of the small groups of Zervas army.
Q Did you see any battles?
A In May I saw an attack against the Italian column on the road between Jannina and Arta, and in July I saw another one in the area between Anfanifilothia and Arta.
Q Was there a time, witness, when the EDES insignia no longer continued to be used?
A On the 23rd of July, 1943, an order was issued, according to which the letters, or initials rather, of EDES, were changed in to EOEA.
Q What did those letters, EOEA stand for?
A They stood for, "Greek National Guerilla Band."
Q How many commands did you have during this period?
A In July we had approximately between 8 and 10 commands.
Q How many regiments?
A Between 20 and 22 regiments.
Q How many battalions?
A Between 40 and 45 battalions.
Q How many companies?
A Between 80 and 90 companies.
Q Did you also have platoons?
A Yes, there were also platoons.
Q Witness, what significant military event took place during this period from the end of December, 1942, until about July 1943?
A During all that period of time the struggle against Italian forces, which were still holding the Epiros, was increased. Between May and June there was no doubt any more left, that the Italians could not hold the Epiros. During the period of time of the 20th of June and the first of July, certain German units started moving from Albania through Lesgoviki, and entered Green territory, or were on Greek territory in Komitsa. On the 10th of July, those German units attacked our command in West Epiros -- of Western Epiros.
That is how at the same time, the battle against the Germans started. In the meantime, the Italian divisions were trying to withdraw their troops on the roads between Arta and into Albania. They were trying to leave Greece by going into Albania.
Between the 10th and the 20th of July, Zervas' command of Valtos, finally smashed up the Italian division called, "Brenner" and pushed them back into the region of Makrinoros. The 23rd of July is a historical date. It was on that date that an agreement was signed between all Guerilla bands.
The common headquarters for all Guerilla bands was established, and that was in Pertouli in Thessalia.
Q What was the next period in the history of the EDES organization witness?
A From the end of July until early in October.
Q Were you yourself in the mountains of Epiros during that period?
A Yes, I went to the mountains between the middle of September until the 20th of October.
Q Did you see Zervas at that time?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you see any of the reports which came to him from his units in the field?
A Yes, he showed me all the reports, and he also showed me the telegrams which had been passed on between his headquarters, - him and the headquarters in the Middle East.
Q Did you see any battles during that period?
A I followed the first phase of the battle of Teowmieka.
Q How many men were in your organization during that period from July 1943 until October 1943?
AAccording to the reports, and on the 7th of October, 1943, the total of Zervas forces in Greece amounted to between 15 and 16 thousand men.
Q How were those men organized? What was the military structure of the organization?
AAccording to the agreement of the 23rd of July, under the tutorship of British officers, they had decided that all of the Guerilla forces were to be combined into a Military Organization, according to which agreement this Guerilla band was to be organized according to Greek army principles, namely, it should consist of army corps, divisions, regiments, battalions, companies and platoons.
Q What were the various ranks of officers during that period?
A The ranks varied from between Brigadier General to 2nd Lieut. namely, Brigadier General, Colonel, Lt. Colonel, Major, Captain, 1st Lt. and 2nd Lt.
Q Did the officers wear uniforms?
A Yes, all officers were wearing uniforms.
Q What kind of uniforms?
A Most of the officers were wearing British uniforms. Other officers, again, out of sentimental reasons, were offered on the old Green uniform.
Q The non-officers, ordinary soldiers did they wear uniforms?
AAll of them were now wearing the British battle dress.
Q Who was your enemy during the period, July 1943 until October 1943?
A Mainly, first, the Italians. Later on the Germans were added, and from the end of July on we only had the Germans to take care of.
Q Do you know which particular German units you fought against during that period?
A Mainly and fundamentally we were fighting against the 1st German Mountain Division.
Q Did you know which corps that first Mountain Division belonged to?
A I didn't know at the beginning when those first mountain divisions entered the Greek area, which army corps it belonged to, but in August and onward it belonged to the 22nd German Army Corps.
Q Do you know who commanded that corps?
A General Hubert Lanz.
Q Witness, you said that in July, 1943, there was an agreement between the Guerilla organization?
A Yes. Yes, that's correct.
Q Did the Allied forces recognize the Guerilla forces operating in Greece at that time?
A Only EDES units as of December, 1942 were considered and recognized by the Headquarters and the Command of the Middle East to be regular units of the Middle East Forces.
As of 23 July 1943, all the Guerilla bands were recognized as part of the Middle East forces. At least those that had signed the agreement.
Q Do you know whether that recognition was broadcast over the London radio?
A Yes, as this incident was of great importance for Greece, the message, or the broadcast took place by radio Cairo which is closer to Greece and the Balkans and can be heard better, and also through the broadcasting station of BBC London.
Q From July 1943 on you were recognized as a regular army. Did your organization have supply services?
A Yes, there was a supply service already as far back as September, 1942. As of July, 1943, it became a regular army supply line.
Q Did you have communication services?
A Yes, we had installed telephone connections at all of the villages of our area.
Q Were there engineering units attached to the regular army?
A Yes indeed, we had our own engineering office.
Q Did you have intelligence services and medical services?
A Yes indeed, we did. Not only did we have those two services for ourselves, for the Guerilla bands, but also for the villages and their inhabitants.
Q Did you set up certain schools in the villages in whose areas you were operating?
A From 1941 and onwards all the schools had been closed, I mean the mountain schools in the mountain villages, because the teachers were not getting paid. We opened up all our schools compulsorily, and in these certain areas where we were, in the villages which we were occupying.
Q Did you have artillery units in your organization?
A In July 1943 we did have artillery. We had artillery even prior to that time. But in July 1943 we had those Italian guns which we had captured in the Battle of Makrinoros. But prior to that we didn't have any guns and finally when we had exhausted our supplied of guns which we had captured there and our shells, we received American guns in May 1944.
Q Did you have any airplanes?
A No, we didn't.
Q Witness, what was the next period in the EDES organization?
A October 1943 to March 1944 was the following period.
Q How many men did you have during that period?
A Several battles were taking place in all those areas which we were occupying, and the result was heavy losses for us. After the long battle which lasted between October and March was exhausted, the Epiros forces in that area amounted to between three and four thousand men.
Q Did you have the same military structure as you had in the earlier period?
A Yes, we did. We kept the same military structure during the period of time during which this battle lasted.
Q Did you have officers?
A Yes, of course. We had the same officers.
Q Were they in uniform?
A Yes, at all times.
Q Were your men in uniform?
A Yes, at all times also.
Q What was the next period in the EDES organization's history, Witness?
A The next period was between early March and the 25th of May.
Q Did your military structure change during that period?
A No, the same structure was kept up. But an effort was made to possibly fill the ranks or fill the gaps which had been caused by the long and tedious battles with new forces and also it was expected that we would receive more arms and better arms for those new forces.
Q How many men did you have during that period from March until May 1944?
A On the 25th of May we had approximately 7,000 men.
Q And from May 1944 until October 1944? Witness, how many men did you have?
A In July our forces amounted to 11,000 men. Towards the end of August we had approximately 15,000 in the Epiros area only.
Q How many men did you have at the end of October 1944?
A On the 15th of October we finally captured Jannina and thus towards the end of October and early in November 1944 our forces amounted to approximately 8 or 9 thousand men, and the Germans had already left the area by that time, and we had started to demobilize our forces.
Q Was your military structure during that period the same as it had been during July 1943?
A Yes.
Q Were both your men and your officers in uniform?
A Yes, that's correct. And the proof of that is the moment that demobilization was ordered by the Greek Government - the Middle East of course - those units formed themselves into military units out of the guerrilla bands, or rather they were incorporated into the regular Greek Army bringing their uniforms and their weapons.
Q Witness, I believe you testified that you yourself were in the mountains during the period May to October 1944. Is that correct?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q What was your job there?
A I was the chief of the press office of the national units. Three newspapers were published under my direction. At the same time I was the advisor of General Zervas.
Q Did you travel about among the Zervas units in the area?
A Yes, I was traveling constantly in that area without interruption.
Q Did you see the orders which Zervas issued to his units and the reports which came to him from the units?
AAll the secret reports, or the top-secret reports, were given me and I could read them.
Q Did you see the reports which Zervas sent to allied Middle East Headquarters in Cairo?
A Yes, at all times.
Q Did you yourself wear a uniform during that period?
AAbsolutely.
Q Witness, I now want to ask you some questions about the training and the methods of warfare of your EDES organization. When a recruit joined your organization how much training was he given before he was assigned to a unit?
A Of course they were to receive military training according to the Greek Military Code. Of course, the way in which this training was carried out depended entirely on the circumstances and the incidents and the happenings. Whenever a man was already in a position to carry a weapon and to handle a gun and it was necessary to quickly set up military units, his training was discontinued and he went into the battle.
Q About how many days' training did a man receive before he was assigned to a unit?
A If he was a man who had already had previous Army experience, who had possibly already fought in the Army, he was given a training which lasted between four and five days. If he was an absolute layman in military matters, his training possibly lasted, and depending on the circumstances, between 15 days, 30 days, or 45 days. They had also smaller units which were being trained by British officers according to their own rules and principles so that they could use them themselves in their own situations, and, of course, the training periods lasted for a much longer period of time.
Q Were your men instructed regarding the rules of International Warfare?
A Undoubtedly, yes.
Q When did they receive that instruction?
AAt the same time, along with the military training.
Q Did your EDES organization have a field manual?
A Yes, that was the field manual of the Greek Army, which is mostly and fundamentally based on the French field manual.
Q.- Well, how were prisoners of war who were captured by the EDES organization treated?
A.- According to Internation Law and regulations.
Q.- Is the mentality of the Greek people significant in this regard?
A.- According to International Law and according to Greek Law, also, the prisoners must be treated correctly. According to the mentality of the Greek people. Apart from the laws which existed, let us not forget and let us consider the Greek attitude -- the Greek mentality -- for the Greek, a prisoner is no longer a fighting enemy, and he, therefore, must not be killed. On the contrary he is a human being that has to be taken care of in a good manner. That is the unwritten law of the Greek nation.
A.- Yes, we did and those camps were receiving exactly the same food as our men were receiving, and their officers were receiving exactly the same food as our officers. The officers were also receiving their pay.
Q.- Were there prisoner of war camps for captured prisoners?
Q.- Were representatives of the International Red Cross permitted to inspect your prisoner of war camps?
A.- Yes, repeatedly.
Q.- Did they, in fact, inspect your camps?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Did General Zervas issue any orders to his men regarding the treatment of captured prisoners?
A.- Yes, undoubtedly. Every maltreatment from the part of any of the guerilla men toward a PW was punished severely according to orders issued by General Zervas.
Q.- Do you know of any examples of members of EDES organization being punished for mistreatment of captured prisoners?
A.- Yes. Personally I know very well of two death sentences and executions, for the maltreatment of PW's.Q.- Was plundering and looting by members of EDES organization punished?
A.- Yes. As a matter of fact I recall one occasion where a man was severely punished for stealing a sheep and he was one of the better men of the organization, and he was executed for that.
Q.- Were officers of the EDES organization held responsible for the actions of the men subordinate to their commands?
A.- The officers were absolutely responsible for every action on their part.
Q.- Can you give an example of that?
A.- Yes. It was one of the customs, for instance, in Greece, to celebrate while firing shots into the air and even when such a thing happened officers were held responsible for that and punished.
Q.- Did General Zervas issue any orders regarding the treatment of the civilian population in those areas in which EDES troops were operating?
A.- Yes, he issued orders repeatedly, but in any case in the entire area the normal Code of the Greek State prevailed. The Greek law, therefore, protected the population.
Q.- Did the EDES Troops pay for any food which they got from the village population?
A.- All foodstuffs had to be paid for, even the fodder for the animals was taken without payment.
Q.- Witness, did your EDES troops ever defend villages in the Epiros area of Greece?
A.- The unit commanders had strict orders to avoid fighting in the villages. And the villages usually are not located in such places as would be well fitted for guerilla warfare. As a result of this, of course there was plenty of open space where the battles could be waged without destroying the villages. And thus it could also be avoided to have retaliations on the part of the Germans.
Q.- Why were orders issued that EDES troops should not fight within a village?
A.- Will you please repeat the question?
Q.- Why were orders issued to the EDES organization not to fight within a village?
A.- Both the Italians and the Germans, but mainly the Germans, always looked for the slightest reason or justification to destroy a village and burn a village and kill all the inhabitants thereof. That is the reason why the order had come out that no battles should take place in the village in order not to provide the Germans with a justification for destruction. And also we didn't want to give them the opportunity to say -- the Germans -- that the villages were destroyed while a battle was going on, and it happened as a result of attacks.
Q.- Were certain members of your organization former inhabitants of the villages near which you fought?
A.- Yes, undoubtedly.
Q.- Was that of any significance with respect to the orders not to fight within a village?
A.- Of course, undoubtedly it had some sort of a connection because it is difficult for a man or a soldier to fight on his won native soil or in his own native village.
Q.- Did it have anything to do with anticipated reprisal measures?
A.- Undoubtedly.
Q.- In what way?
A.- As the battle was carried out in some field we did not give them a justification or a reason to destroy the village.
Q.- Did your EDES organization set up any services for refugees from destroyed villages?
A.- Of course, we did, including August 1944, we had approximately 9,000 farmer refugees and also 190,000 persons who had been bombed out, or their houses had been burned down.
THE PRESIDENT (Judge WENNERSTRUM): The Tribunal will take its morning recess at this tame.
(The Tribunal recessed at 1100.)
THE MARSHAL: The persons in the Courtroom will be seated.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Witness, prior to the recess, we were talking about the methods of warfare of the EDES organization. Did the EDES troops ever take hostages?
A. No, at no time.
Q. Did they ever burn villages?
A. No, at no time.
Q. Witness, did the EDES troops carry their arms openly at all times?
A. Of course, openly of course.
Q. Did you ever throw your arms away when you were surrounded?
A. To answer this question, you have to differentiate between the various phases of the struggle.
Q. Will you do that differentiating for us?
A. During the first period of the struggle, it was only natural for the guerillas to hide their weapons in case they should be surrounded. However, as from March, 1943, most of the guerillas, and later on all of them were wearing uniforms it was natural that in case they should be surrounded they would act accordingly. They did not have the right to throw away their weapons because this would be considered desertion.
Q. In other words, you carried your arms openly from the period March 1943 until the end?
A. Yes, undoubtedly. Of course, we carried them openly prior to March, 1943, but as of March, 1943, if anybody did not carry his weapon, it was considered punishable.
Q. When did you first begin to fight the German troops?
A. As of the 10th of July, 1943.
Q. During the period prior to March, 1943, you say you threw your arms away on occasion when you were surrounded?
A. Some of us did not just throw them away but they tried to hide them in order to find them again later on.
Q. Did you also throw your insignia away during that period prior to March, 1943, in case you were surrounded?
A. Yes, we hid them, that is.
Q. Did you hide your insignia or throw away your arms after March, 1943?
A. No, as of March, 1943, at which time we had been comprising military units, and were wearing regular uniforms and regular insignias, nobody did that because they were wearing the uniforms. It wasn't necessary. It wouldn't have been of any use to do so anyway.
Q. During the period prior to March, 1943, what kind of military operations did the EDES organization carry out?
A. Apart from the fact that we fought the Germans and the Italians, for instance the blowing up of a bridge which also served as fortification for the Germans, we were mainly fighting the Italians who intended to clean up the area where General Zervas had his headquarters.
Q. Did you try to disrupt supply and communication lines? Did you try to interrupt supply and communication lines of the occupying forces?
A. Undoubtedly yes, but during that period of time we were trained to damage the road between Amphilochia and Jannina. During the period of time, however, it was more of a defensive struggle on the part of the small units because the Italians employed larger units trying to annihilate them.
Q. What was the nature of your military action during from March, 1943, until October, 1944? The period when you were opposed to the German forces for the most part?
A. First of all, our principal aim was to disrupt and destroy German motor vehicle columns, blow up bridges, and certain signs at roads at important junctions. But of course the main part of our struggle was carried out against the Germans who were much stronger than we were and who were definitely better fighters than the Italians and their purpose was to annihilate or at least disperse our guerilla units.
Q. Would you say that the military operations after March, 1943, were guerilla operations or regular war operations?
A. I would call it a tactical battle or struggle because there is not much difference between what we were doing and what the British were doing in the Middle East and in the Cyrenaika. Of course we saw that, for instance, in Africa, also, the struggle was being carried out with raids and ambushes and also with larger clashes.