A Yes, at all times.
Q Were your men in uniform?
A Yes, at all times also.
Q What was the next period in the EDES organization's history, Witness?
A The next period was between early March and the 25th of May.
Q Did your military structure change during that period?
A No, the same structure was kept up. But an effort was made to possibly fill the ranks or fill the gaps which had been caused by the long and tedious battles with new forces and also it was expected that we would receive more arms and better arms for those new forces.
Q How many men did you have during that period from March until May 1944?
A On the 25th of May we had approximately 7,000 men.
Q And from May 1944 until October 1944? Witness, how many men did you have?
A In July our forces amounted to 11,000 men. Towards the end of August we had approximately 15,000 in the Epiros area only.
Q How many men did you have at the end of October 1944?
A On the 15th of October we finally captured Jannina and thus towards the end of October and early in November 1944 our forces amounted to approximately 8 or 9 thousand men, and the Germans had already left the area by that time, and we had started to demobilize our forces.
Q Was your military structure during that period the same as it had been during July 1943?
A Yes.
Q Were both your men and your officers in uniform?
A Yes, that's correct. And the proof of that is the moment that demobilization was ordered by the Greek Government - the Middle East of course - those units formed themselves into military units out of the guerrilla bands, or rather they were incorporated into the regular Greek Army bringing their uniforms and their weapons.
Q Witness, I believe you testified that you yourself were in the mountains during the period May to October 1944. Is that correct?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q What was your job there?
A I was the chief of the press office of the national units. Three newspapers were published under my direction. At the same time I was the advisor of General Zervas.
Q Did you travel about among the Zervas units in the area?
A Yes, I was traveling constantly in that area without interruption.
Q Did you see the orders which Zervas issued to his units and the reports which came to him from the units?
AAll the secret reports, or the top-secret reports, were given me and I could read them.
Q Did you see the reports which Zervas sent to allied Middle East Headquarters in Cairo?
A Yes, at all times.
Q Did you yourself wear a uniform during that period?
AAbsolutely.
Q Witness, I now want to ask you some questions about the training and the methods of warfare of your EDES organization. When a recruit joined your organization how much training was he given before he was assigned to a unit?
A Of course they were to receive military training according to the Greek Military Code. Of course, the way in which this training was carried out depended entirely on the circumstances and the incidents and the happenings. Whenever a man was already in a position to carry a weapon and to handle a gun and it was necessary to quickly set up military units, his training was discontinued and he went into the battle.
Q About how many days' training did a man receive before he was assigned to a unit?
A If he was a man who had already had previous Army experience, who had possibly already fought in the Army, he was given a training which lasted between four and five days. If he was an absolute layman in military matters, his training possibly lasted, and depending on the circumstances, between 15 days, 30 days, or 45 days. They had also smaller units which were being trained by British officers according to their own rules and principles so that they could use them themselves in their own situations, and, of course, the training periods lasted for a much longer period of time.
Q Were your men instructed regarding the rules of International Warfare?
A Undoubtedly, yes.
Q When did they receive that instruction?
AAt the same time, along with the military training.
Q Did your EDES organization have a field manual?
A Yes, that was the field manual of the Greek Army, which is mostly and fundamentally based on the French field manual.
Q.- Well, how were prisoners of war who were captured by the EDES organization treated?
A.- According to Internation Law and regulations.
Q.- Is the mentality of the Greek people significant in this regard?
A.- According to International Law and according to Greek Law, also, the prisoners must be treated correctly. According to the mentality of the Greek people. Apart from the laws which existed, let us not forget and let us consider the Greek attitude -- the Greek mentality -- for the Greek, a prisoner is no longer a fighting enemy, and he, therefore, must not be killed. On the contrary he is a human being that has to be taken care of in a good manner. That is the unwritten law of the Greek nation.
A.- Yes, we did and those camps were receiving exactly the same food as our men were receiving, and their officers were receiving exactly the same food as our officers. The officers were also receiving their pay.
Q.- Were there prisoner of war camps for captured prisoners?
Q.- Were representatives of the International Red Cross permitted to inspect your prisoner of war camps?
A.- Yes, repeatedly.
Q.- Did they, in fact, inspect your camps?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Did General Zervas issue any orders to his men regarding the treatment of captured prisoners?
A.- Yes, undoubtedly. Every maltreatment from the part of any of the guerilla men toward a PW was punished severely according to orders issued by General Zervas.
Q.- Do you know of any examples of members of EDES organization being punished for mistreatment of captured prisoners?
A.- Yes. Personally I know very well of two death sentences and executions, for the maltreatment of PW's.Q.- Was plundering and looting by members of EDES organization punished?
A.- Yes. As a matter of fact I recall one occasion where a man was severely punished for stealing a sheep and he was one of the better men of the organization, and he was executed for that.
Q.- Were officers of the EDES organization held responsible for the actions of the men subordinate to their commands?
A.- The officers were absolutely responsible for every action on their part.
Q.- Can you give an example of that?
A.- Yes. It was one of the customs, for instance, in Greece, to celebrate while firing shots into the air and even when such a thing happened officers were held responsible for that and punished.
Q.- Did General Zervas issue any orders regarding the treatment of the civilian population in those areas in which EDES troops were operating?
A.- Yes, he issued orders repeatedly, but in any case in the entire area the normal Code of the Greek State prevailed. The Greek law, therefore, protected the population.
Q.- Did the EDES Troops pay for any food which they got from the village population?
A.- All foodstuffs had to be paid for, even the fodder for the animals was taken without payment.
Q.- Witness, did your EDES troops ever defend villages in the Epiros area of Greece?
A.- The unit commanders had strict orders to avoid fighting in the villages. And the villages usually are not located in such places as would be well fitted for guerilla warfare. As a result of this, of course there was plenty of open space where the battles could be waged without destroying the villages. And thus it could also be avoided to have retaliations on the part of the Germans.
Q.- Why were orders issued that EDES troops should not fight within a village?
A.- Will you please repeat the question?
Q.- Why were orders issued to the EDES organization not to fight within a village?
A.- Both the Italians and the Germans, but mainly the Germans, always looked for the slightest reason or justification to destroy a village and burn a village and kill all the inhabitants thereof. That is the reason why the order had come out that no battles should take place in the village in order not to provide the Germans with a justification for destruction. And also we didn't want to give them the opportunity to say -- the Germans -- that the villages were destroyed while a battle was going on, and it happened as a result of attacks.
Q.- Were certain members of your organization former inhabitants of the villages near which you fought?
A.- Yes, undoubtedly.
Q.- Was that of any significance with respect to the orders not to fight within a village?
A.- Of course, undoubtedly it had some sort of a connection because it is difficult for a man or a soldier to fight on his won native soil or in his own native village.
Q.- Did it have anything to do with anticipated reprisal measures?
A.- Undoubtedly.
Q.- In what way?
A.- As the battle was carried out in some field we did not give them a justification or a reason to destroy the village.
Q.- Did your EDES organization set up any services for refugees from destroyed villages?
A.- Of course, we did, including August 1944, we had approximately 9,000 farmer refugees and also 190,000 persons who had been bombed out, or their houses had been burned down.
THE PRESIDENT (Judge WENNERSTRUM): The Tribunal will take its morning recess at this tame.
(The Tribunal recessed at 1100.)
THE MARSHAL: The persons in the Courtroom will be seated.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Witness, prior to the recess, we were talking about the methods of warfare of the EDES organization. Did the EDES troops ever take hostages?
A. No, at no time.
Q. Did they ever burn villages?
A. No, at no time.
Q. Witness, did the EDES troops carry their arms openly at all times?
A. Of course, openly of course.
Q. Did you ever throw your arms away when you were surrounded?
A. To answer this question, you have to differentiate between the various phases of the struggle.
Q. Will you do that differentiating for us?
A. During the first period of the struggle, it was only natural for the guerillas to hide their weapons in case they should be surrounded. However, as from March, 1943, most of the guerillas, and later on all of them were wearing uniforms it was natural that in case they should be surrounded they would act accordingly. They did not have the right to throw away their weapons because this would be considered desertion.
Q. In other words, you carried your arms openly from the period March 1943 until the end?
A. Yes, undoubtedly. Of course, we carried them openly prior to March, 1943, but as of March, 1943, if anybody did not carry his weapon, it was considered punishable.
Q. When did you first begin to fight the German troops?
A. As of the 10th of July, 1943.
Q. During the period prior to March, 1943, you say you threw your arms away on occasion when you were surrounded?
A. Some of us did not just throw them away but they tried to hide them in order to find them again later on.
Q. Did you also throw your insignia away during that period prior to March, 1943, in case you were surrounded?
A. Yes, we hid them, that is.
Q. Did you hide your insignia or throw away your arms after March, 1943?
A. No, as of March, 1943, at which time we had been comprising military units, and were wearing regular uniforms and regular insignias, nobody did that because they were wearing the uniforms. It wasn't necessary. It wouldn't have been of any use to do so anyway.
Q. During the period prior to March, 1943, what kind of military operations did the EDES organization carry out?
A. Apart from the fact that we fought the Germans and the Italians, for instance the blowing up of a bridge which also served as fortification for the Germans, we were mainly fighting the Italians who intended to clean up the area where General Zervas had his headquarters.
Q. Did you try to disrupt supply and communication lines? Did you try to interrupt supply and communication lines of the occupying forces?
A. Undoubtedly yes, but during that period of time we were trained to damage the road between Amphilochia and Jannina. During the period of time, however, it was more of a defensive struggle on the part of the small units because the Italians employed larger units trying to annihilate them.
Q. What was the nature of your military action during from March, 1943, until October, 1944? The period when you were opposed to the German forces for the most part?
A. First of all, our principal aim was to disrupt and destroy German motor vehicle columns, blow up bridges, and certain signs at roads at important junctions. But of course the main part of our struggle was carried out against the Germans who were much stronger than we were and who were definitely better fighters than the Italians and their purpose was to annihilate or at least disperse our guerilla units.
Q. Would you say that the military operations after March, 1943, were guerilla operations or regular war operations?
A. I would call it a tactical battle or struggle because there is not much difference between what we were doing and what the British were doing in the Middle East and in the Cyrenaika. Of course we saw that, for instance, in Africa, also, the struggle was being carried out with raids and ambushes and also with larger clashes.
Q. You would describe these military operations then as regular war?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. May I ask you a few questions about recognition accorded the EDES organization by the Allies. Was there a British Mission attached to your organization at any time?
A. As of December 1942 an officially attached British Mission existed which in 1944 joined us as an allied mission.
Q. How many men were in the British Mission when attached in December 1942?
A. It consisted of approximately 12 officers.
Q. Did Zervas send reports to the British Middle East authorities at any time?
A. Yes, at all times as it was a detachment of the Middle East forces, it had the duty to report the daily occurrences of the Middle East forces.
Q. From what period of time did you send daily reports to the British Middle East Headquarters?
A. Between December and April 1943, our wireless communications were not very good as yet and we could not possible send daily messages to our headquarters. Therefore, we limited ourselves to between two and three messages a week. Approximately from April 1943 onwards the reports were made daily with a few exceptions until the end.
Q. Did you say that the EDES organization was recognized as a unit of the Allied Middle East Army?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. What was the earliest period of time?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Fenstermacher, it seems to me that in some of your questions you are very definitely asking for conclusions and my suggestion is that you ask for statements of facts so that the court may pass upon the facts, and not ask for conclusions of the witness. It has been very much abused during all the morning.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I will keep that in mind your Honor.
Q. When was a mission of any other Government or Army ever attached to the EDES organization?
A. An American Mission also joined us.
Q. At what time?
A. In the spring of 1944.
Q. Were any negotiations ever conducted between German forces and the EDES forces?
A. First of all let's distinguish between two phases here. In October 1943 certain effects on the part of the Germans could be noticed in order to reach an agreement. In July 1944 other efforts on the part of the Germans could be noticed in order to reach an agreement, and then apart from that there was a third phase where the surrender of the Germans was negotiated between the two parties of Zervas and the British on the one hand, and the Germans on the other hand. That was in September 1944. Those were negotiations. The first two points mentioned were attempts on the part of the Germans to reach an agreement.
Q. When was the first approach of the Germans to your organization?
A. On October 5th, 1943, Greeks, who had been delegated by the Germans, arrived at Zervas' headquarters.
Q. What was the German proposal to your organization?
A. It was not a proposal but more a blackmail.
Q. Would you tell the Tribunal about that?
A. The Greek delegates sent by the Germans told Zervas, as the Germans' message, that should those attacks on the part of the Gorillas not stop, the whole area of Epirus would be burned down.
Q. What did Zervas do when this proposal reached him?
A. As Zervas was speaking to Greeks, who were the German delegates he told them that he personally could not reach a decision, as he said he was a unit of the Middle East forces and he would contact the Middle East forces through the British Mission.
Q. Did the British Mission respond to Zervas' enquiry?
A. The British Mission immediately sent a telegram on behalf of Zervas to the Middle East Headquarters.
Q. What was the reply, if any, that was received from the Middle East Headquarters?
A. The answer from the Middle East Headquarters was that no agreement, nor contact should be reached with the Germans or effected with the Germans respectively.
Q. Witness, how do you know these things about which you testify?
A. The only reason why I know that is because at that time I met Zervas for the first time and the second reason is that I have all the telegrams which were communicated between Zervas through the British Mission and the Headquarters in the Middle East, and vice versa.
Q. You said at that time you met Zervas for the first time. Hadn't you met Zervas before this?
A. I meant by that the first time in the mountains.
Q. Were there any other approaches by the Germans to your organization?
A. On the 9th or 10th of October, 1943, Dr. Komborosos and the Metropolite, Arch Bishop of Arta, went up to General Zervas's headquarters in Skiadades and they gave him the same sort of message on the part of the Germans who were in the Area of Arta. Zervas answered them that his answer had already been given.
Q. Were there any other approaches by the Germans to the EDES organization?
A. Two days later another delegate arrived. I don't know what his name is; I don't know who he was but anyway he came to Zervas' Headquarters with another proposal on the part of the Germans which, however, contained more complete statements. According to that delegate the message was that Zervas was to meet the following two people, namely: Colonel Biel, if I remember correctly, and Captain Rundstock, if I remember that name correctly, at a given point which was on the road between Arta and Janninano. Zervas was the one to indicate the place where they were to meet and they wanted to discuss the cease fire order and to stop hostilities. There were certain indications at the time which pointed to three different possibilities. Either that the Germans wanted to withdraw entirely or reach an agreement with Zervas or with the Middle East Forces or the Allies. Whereupon, Zervas was again obliged to inform the Middle East Headquarters of that incident and offer. The reply which came from the Middle East Headquarters was the following:
It was their opinion that this was another usual German trick in order to annihilate Zervas and, according to the orders, the answer which was given by the British Mission and by Zervas to the Germans, was that they were to be informed of two things, namely: First of all no agreement would be reached with the Germans unless the Germans were ready to sign unconditional surrender and the second point, which is a more important point, was that these people should be informed that the Commanders of all the German forces in that area were to be held personally responsible for whatever crimes their soldiers had committed or would commit against the civilian population and that they would be held responsible by the Middle East Headquarters.
Q Were prisoners exchanged between the EDES troops and the German troops, witness? Do you know that?
A No, at no time.
Q Do you know how the Germans treated captured members of the EDES organization?
A The policy as carried out by the Germans was characteristic of the way they treated the population in any occupied country
DR. LATERNSER: I object. Your Honor, I have to say that it is difficult for me to keep calm because of the manner in which the witness is testifying. I request that the last sentence that the witness testified be stricken from the record, as a mere conclusion and not pertaining to facts.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained. I think the witness should be cautioned that he should testify only to such facts as he has personal knowledge of.
A Those are facts which I know very, very well because I witnessed those things for four years.
There are not only certain incidents and conclusions on my part; they are facts.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Did you ever see any burned villages in the Epirus section of Greece.
A Did you say a burned village?
Q A burned or destroyed village.
A There were very, very few villages in Epirus that were not destroyed or burned, if any at all.
Q How many destroyed villages did you yourself see?
A Of all those villages of which I can remember the names I can state between 20 and 25 but I do know of 100 or more which I saw myself.
Q Would you describe what you saw when you walked through a destroyed village?
AAll I saw was either burned out buildings or buildings that had been blown up.
Q Did you see any people?
A The villages which had only been burned down recently were of course empty because we had taken care of the people but in the villages that had already been burned quite a while back certain reconstructions were carried out by our own services.
Q Did you gain recruits from the destroyed villages?
A Yes indeed, we did recruit quite a few. Firstly, because they didn't have any place to go, and secondly because they wanted to get revenge for what had been done to them and for the unjust thing that had happened to them.
Q Did you take any photographs while you were in the mountains, witness?
A Yes, quite often.
Q Do you have those photographs with you?
A I have a few photographs here.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, I just learned yesterday about the photographs in the witness' possession; I believe we can have extra sets of those made by Monday or Tuesday if I may be allowed to reserve my rights to put them to the witness and have him identify them on direct after I have turned him over for cross-examination in a very few minutes. Would that be agreeable to your Honors?
DR. LATERNSER: The witness also happens to have some incriminating material with him. I want to point out that the Prosecution has to bring the incriminating material and not the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: As far as the photographs are concerned, that right will be given to the Prosecution. I am not certain as to what Dr. Laternser has in mind as to other documentary evidence that he has referred to.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, evidently I have been misunderstood. I wanted to say the following: The witness who evidently has incriminating material with him cannot, of course, submit it himself. In the proceedings the material will be submitted either by the defense or by the Prosecution. If the Prosecution has the intention of exploiting this material nobody will object to that but we have to see it 24 hours before it is submitted.
THE PRESIDENT: That rule will necessarily have to be followed and of course if you wish to cross examine him an any matters which you wish to have access to, why that will be your privilege under the rules of the Tribunal BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Witness, was there another resistance organization in Greece during the occupation besides the organization of EDES to which you belonged?
A Yes, there were quite a few others.
Q What was the largest of the other resistance organizations in Greece?
A The EAM which was called the National Liberation Front which had its military organization called ELAS.
Q Witness, when you were a member of the EDES organization, did you consider yourself a bandit?
Q Were you ever a member of either EAM or ELAS?
A No, never.
DR. LATERNSER: I object to that question.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Do you know the name of the German Commander that commanded the troops against whom the EDES organization was fighting during the period of July 1943 until October 1944?
AAt the beginning we thought it was the 1st Mountain Division; the commander of which was General Stettner. It was the end of August 1943 when we learned that it was the XXII Army Corps that was to occupy that area and it was lead by General Hubert Lanz.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Except for the right to examine the witness with respect to the photographs which he himself took during his stay in the Epirus section of Greece, I have no further questions at this time.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for the defendant Lanz):
Q. Witness, one of your last remarks said approximately that after the withdrawal of the Germans from Epirus there were practically no undestroyed villages left.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Witness, a few days ago there appeared an item in the papers saying that communist bandits in Epirus had burned 36 villages.
A. The subject at the present moment is not how many villages were burned down by the communist bands but, rather, how many villages were burned down by the Germans. That is what I am going to describe if you want me to, and I will also give you the names.
Q. Witness, I please ask you to answer the questions which I ask you. I don't need to hear any legal instruction from you. I ask you, therefore, is it known to you that only recently again many villages in Epirus had been burned down by communist bands.
A. I am here in order to testify about the crimes which were committed by the Germans while they were occupying Greece and if I am asked anything else I refuse to answer it.
Q. You refuse to answer this question?
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is directed to answer the question as given by the cross examiner.
A. If those things are going on today in Greece, that villages are burned down, then it is only a result of the German occupation of Greece.
Q. Witness, is it your impression that from the years 1943 and 1944 on the fight of the German troops against the Greek Zervas troops was conducted with too great a severity?
A. Yes, undoubtedly.
Q. You're a journalist?
A. Yes.
Q. You, therefore, are probably very well informed about this matter. Is it known to you that the Greek government, a few days ago, handed the American ambassador in Athens a note-
DR. SAUTER: One moment. I must first ask the question and then you can object.
Q. Is it known to you, witness, that the Greek government in this memorandum says the following: "Forcible measures are the best methods of becoming master over the guerillas."
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors, please, I object to this. I don't see what a note delivered to the American government a few days ago has to do with this proceeding.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is sustained as not being proper cross examination.
DR. SAUTER: Your Honors, but I must immediately request that the witness, after the completion of the cross examination, may not return to Greece but that he has to remain here as a witness until he is examined as a direct witness by the defense.
Mr. President, I would like to say the following, too. The witness has been examined here in direct examination about the type of warfare in Greece during the German occupation. If the Tribunal wants to hear about this matter, it must be permitted to tell the Tribunal and to prove by means of witnesses how at other times warfare was conducted in the Balkans and, especially, in Greece; and I claim, and I want to prove by means of this witness, that the present Greek government, a few days ago, sent an official note to the American ambassador in Athens in which it describes the use of political methods in this case now in Greece is just as important, is the same thing, as the loss of valuable time. Therefore, the government says it is dangerous for Greece to use political methods at all against these communist troops. The Greek govern ment of today, therefore, demands immediate deliveries of war material, increase of the Greek army, etc.