In this connection again there is a further disadvantage. All this is a consequence of the fact that the prosecution submitted its case so briefly. In case we get material which the prosecution is about to have brought to Nuernberg, I for my part will not be in a position to make a complete presentation of the case List and what disadvantages are connected with such a factor can well be estimated by the Tribunal.
The reason why I am explaining all this is the following. I just want to make clear the position of the defense at the moment -- that is, when I have hoard the defendant List I can then not continue because other witnesses havn't arrived yet. For that reason I would not be in a position to have talked to any one of the witnesses and my document books which, of course, as far as they are finished, I am in a position to deliver up today for mimeographing; but that, on the other hand, would not help me because then my presentation could not be complete.
That is the position, as I want to put it to the Tribunal.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The Tribunal suggests that you proceed with the evidence of your client. Sometime during the day or tomorrow morning, at the earliest, the Tribunal will advise you of its feelings in the matter that you have expressed here if that is agreeable, Dr. Laternser.
DR. LATERNSER: I want to start this way. I have just been given a communication which I would like to make known to the Tribunal in addition and I attach importance to the fact that it be incorporated in the record. This communication too, will show the extreme difficulties of the defense. May I read it? I am only doing this so that the prosecution may gain a complete picture of the situation.
"The Prosecutor of the Spruchkammer Weissmain to Defense Center Nuernberg, Palace of Justice. Subject: Southeast Generals.
"The appeal which was published in the press on the 8th of last month to former members of the Wehrmacht who have participated in partisan warfare in the Balkans, to the effect that those people should put themselves at the disposal of the defense, only reached ms now and I would like to put the following question to you in this connection."
The communication is very short, your Honors.
"Officially released prisoners of war from Jugoslavia prisoner of war camps are very few or none at all. However, there will be a few who have succeeded is escaping further prisoner ships, either by escaping or by pretending not to be of German nationality.
"I can well imagine that such people who have thus escaped a very hard fate, that those members of the Wehrmacht will not report in compliance with your request, even if they could make testimony of importance, because they will surely be afraid that possibly they will again be extradicted to the Jugoslavs; and then comes the question -- or wouldn't that be the case?
What assurance will be given in such a case."
And then comes the signature.
By reading this letter I was only going to show the Tribunal what the general opinion is to volunteer as a witness for the defense in this trial.
Now, before I put the defendant Field Marshal List on the witness stand, I would like to ask that the chart which has been put here by the prosecution for informational purposes be removed. I think it is wrong and I don't want this chart to exert any influence on the charts which I intend to submit to the witness. Maybe that can be done in the recess afterwards.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Is there any objection of the prosecution to the removal of the chart during the offering of the defendants' evidence?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors, no, we have no objection to taking the chart out.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The chart may be removed during the afternoon recess.
DR. LATERNSER: Thank you, your Honor. I now call the defendant Field Marshal list to the witness stand.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I swear by God the Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q: Field Marshal, will you please tell the Tribunal your full name?
A: Siegmund Wilhelm Walther List.
Q: Before you answer any one of my questions, please make a short pause so that the question can be translated.
When were you born?
A: On the 14th of May, 1880.
Q: And where?
A: In Oberkirrchberg in Wuerttemberg. That is in the district of Ulm.
Q: What was your father's profession?
A: District counseller (Laudrat)
Q: What is your religion?
A: I am a Protestant.
Q: And what is your schooling?
A: At first I visited a private school. Later I went to elementary school in Ulm and als visited there the first classes of the gymnasium.
Q: Who was in charge of your education when you want to school in Ulm?
A: My grandmother. She was the widow of a clergyman and when was aided in this by her daughters, one of whom was a teacher in a girls' school.
Q: How long did you remain in Ulm?
A: To the year 1890.
Q: And where did you go then?
A: Then my father transferred to Munich.
Q: And what school did you go to in Munich?
A: The Humanistic Gymnasium (High School).
Q: When hid you leave that school?
A: In 1898.
Q: Had you been determined for a long time to become an officer?
A: I had gained the first impressions which led me to this in Ulm but I was not decided for along time whether I wanted to become an officer or a forester. My grandmother originated in a forester's family and I lived with her for a long time near the Danube and I there made experiences concerning pioneer activity which influenced me deeply.
When, in the year 1898 I had to choose what kind of a profession I wanted to take, I then decided to become an officer. That was a profession which at that time was quite frequently taken up by young people in Bavaria just as any other kind of civil service.
Q: Why, then, did you decide to become an officer?
A: Because I endeavored to do a lot of work out in the opon and to have as much as possible contact with other people.
Q: Where did your military career start?
A: It started in Munich at the then pioneer detachment which later became the pioneer battalion.
Q: And when?
A: In July of the year 1898.
Q: When did you become an officer?
A: In March of the year 1900.
Q: What was your further training as an officer?
A: To begin with, I worked with the troops; 1902 to 1904 I went to an artillery and engineering school; and then I became batallion adjutant and as such I made an examination at the War Academy. I went to the War Academy from the year 1908 to 1911. That is the Bavarian War Academy in Munich.
Q: Are you married?
A: Yes.
Q: How many children do you have?
A: Three.
Q: How did your further military career develop?
A: After I had finished the War Academy I again worked with the troops in an Infantry Regiment. Later I was ordered to the Bavarian Staff and there, as an officer of the Second Bavarian Corps, I was assigned when the troops were mobilized in 1914.
After the First World War, 1914 to 1918 -- or, rather, at the end of the First World War -I was called to the Bavarian Ministry as an expert and there I participated in the dissolution of the Army.
Q: What was your activity during the First World War?
A: During the First World War I was an officer of the General Staff, as well in the Western, in the Main, also for a short time in the Eastern theatre of war.
Q: What decorations did you receive during the First World War?
A: During the First World War I received the Iron Cross, First and Second Class; then the Hohenzollern House Order with Swords, the Bavarian Order of Merit, with sword, a Wuertenberg Order, an Austrian Order and a Bulgarian decoration.
Q: What intentions did you have for the period after the First World War?
A: After the First World War, I had the intention to become a farmer. However, that did not come true because, on the occasion of the Munich Putsch, I saw myself forced to flee from Munich; together with government troops I participated in the conquest of Munich and I was then taken over to the standing Army of the First World War of 100,000 men.
Q: What were your assignments after you had been incorporated into the standing army after the first World War?
A: Partly I worked with the Staff; partly in the troops. As of the year 1922 up until 1924 I was Commander of the Mountain Infantry Regiment, Kempten, 19th Inf. Regt.
3l51 Later I worked on the staff of the Military Command District 7, and from there, in the year 1926, after I had in the meantime been promoted to Lieutenant Colonel, I came into a training department of the Army.
In the autumn of that year I was made full Colonel. I was put in charge of the department as deputy the dept. chief who was sick. In the spring of the year 1927 I became Chief of the Army Training Department.
(Dr. Laternser)
Q You have mentioned just now a battalion of the Infantry Regiment 19. Have you ever been actively employed with this battalion?
A Yes, I was employed with this battalion in the year 1923, that was on the occasion of the Hitler rise in Munich, and they had to suppress that rise, and I was instructed to effect law and order in Munich.
Q You said that in 1927, I believe, you were Chief of the Army Training Department?
A Yes.
Q How long did you remain in this position?
A I remained as Chief of the Training Department to the spring of the year 1930.
Q And what did you become then?
A In the year 1930, I became Commander of the Infantry School; that was, in those days, the only infantry school; that was located in Dresden.
Q What were your tasks for this position?
A My task was to train young officers of the Reich Army and to educate them; with regard to the educational task, I received a special instruction in those days, just before that time, the National Socialists had formed cartels amongst the young officers of the Army. I recall the case Ludin and I was instructed then by the then Minister for the Defense, - that was the Democratic Minister Groener, and from the chief of the OKW, and from the chief of the troop office, that was General of the Infantry von Hammerstein, to make sure that any political activity, and especially an influence of national socialism on the young officers in Dresden, should be avoided.
Q And what did you do, according to this instruction?
A In order to carry out this task I educated and trained my officers in this sense. I influenced their teachers and occasionally made appeals to the young officers.
In the year 1933, in the autumn, I was promoted to Brigadier General, and on the 1st of October I was given the fourth division in Dresden. In 1934 I was made Commanding General of the newly created 4th Corps, and in 1935, I was promoted General of the Infantry (Lt. Gen.)
In 1938, in the spring of that year, I was, for a short period, made commander-in-chief of Army Group II in Kassel. However, I only remained there for one month, up to 1 April, 1939, and then I became commander-in-chief of Army Group V, which had been newly created in Vienna.
Q Did you participate in the march on the Sudeten area in the occupation of Czechoslovakia?
A I participated in both as commander-in-chief of Army Group V, Vienna, - that is, I participated in the occupation of Moravia. That is the southern part of the occupied area.
Q When were you made General?
A I was made Major General in the spring of 1939.
A Now to the war.
MR. DENNEY: Dr. Laternser has asked when he was made Generaloberst, a four-star general, and the interpretation came through as "Major General". The rank he is referring to is a four-star general, the rank just above the rank of Field-Marshal. Will you please have it corrected?
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q When were you made a full general?
A In the spring of the year 1939.
Q And may I say the word, "Generaloberst" has been translated from "four-star General".
Field Marshal, we now approach the period of the war. What were your positions at the beginning of the war?
AAt the beginning of the war, in the year 1939, I became Commander-
in-Chief of the 14th Army. That was in the campaign against Poland.
Q And what was your next position?
A With the 14th Army I participated in the campaign in Poland, and soon after the campaign was finished, - that was in October, 1939, I was sent to the west with the high command of the army, and this command was then given the designation, "High Command XII".
To begin with, I came to the army group von Bock, which was divided up later, and on the occasion of the division, I came to von Rundstedt's Army group, that is, the southern wing in the Eiffel territory.
Q In what capacity did you participate in the campaign against France?
AAs Commander-in-chief of the 12th Army.
Q And after that campaign was concluded?
AAt the conclusion of the campaign in France, I was again transferred to the east, to the district of Cracow, together with the army command XII.
In the meantime I had been promoted Field Marshal. That was in the middle of July.
Q And what were your further positions during the war ? Very briefly.
A I remained in the east for a short time, Before Christmas, on the occasion of the visit of the Commander-in-Chief of the Army he informed me that my army command would be transferred to the southeast, -- in order to form there army forces in the Roumanian area, and at that time, when I was informed of this, this had already started.
Q And how long did you remain in the Southeast area? Quite briefly to begin with, we will come to it more in detail later.
A I remained in the southeast until my illness, that was on the 15th of October, 1941, and I was then in the hospital in Athens up to December, 1941.
Q Did you later on have another position?
A Yes, I did have another position for the duration of about two months.
Q And what was that?
A From July and August to September, 1942, I had the command of Army Group A. Army Group A was then located on the southern wing of the Eastern front.
Q How long did you maintain this command?
A From the 7th of July to the 10th of September.
Q And why did you discontinue?
AAt that time there were serious differences of opinion between me and Hitler.
Q What decorations did you receive during the war?
A During the war I received the clasp to the iron cross, first and second class, and the Knight's Cross to the Iron Cross, and furthermore a number of foreign decorations, Slovakian, Hungaian, Italian, -Bulgarian and Roumanian, decorations.
Is it necessary that I mention them all in detail?
Q No, it is not necessary.
What was your attitude to the party of the National Socialists?
A My attitude was, from the very beginning, critical and rejecting, and this, my attitude, was based on my activities, that is, when I had to take part in suppressing the Hitler rise in Munich, I had then noticed the whole manner in which the party proceeded. Furthermore, my attitude was based on the experiences I had made during the struggle before the elections between Hitler and Hindenburg, and especially it was based on the manner of how the party showed itself toward the Wehrmacht, - how the party endeavored to destroy the above-party character of the Wehrmacht and how they tried to gain influence over the Wehrmacht; as I had described before, there were certain cartels amongst the young officers corps; in the years 1929/30 that it was possible that such a thing existed was due to the influence of the party, and on all of these facts my rejecting and critical attitude toward the party was based.
Q Why did you remain in the service then, in 1933?
A In spite of this, my attitude, I saw no cause, and none of the officers could see any cause, for resigning the service because after all Hitler had gained power legally. We served under the Weimar Republic, as long as this Republic held the confidence of the German people, and there was no cause now, just because the political party had changed, and a different political party had taken over, -- there was no reason for us to resign the service. Besides, we did not serve the armed forces of the party. I saw my service as that of the Fatherland.
Q Did your rejecting attitude toward the party of the National Socialists diminish later on?
A No, maybe at the beginning one was somewhat influenced by the successes which Hitler doubtlessly gained in the inner political sphere, as well as on other spheres, and which had gained him respect abroad in broad circles, but it was shown repeatedly that within party circles, and mainly in the inner life of Germany, excesses occurred on the part of the party, which were directed especially against the officers' corps, so that it became necessary to watch out, and my rejection did not diminish, but after a short time, sort of an "in-between" period, I felt rather more strongly in this rejecting attitude. For this reason, in order to not have to accept these excesses towards the Wehrmacht, and even those of a general nature which became felt, I, during the time from 1933 to 1938, when I was commanding general in Dresden.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: It is not only time for our afternoon recess, but they have run out of sound recording tape, so we will have to recess.
DR. LATERNSER: The question has not been fully answered yet, maybe the defendant can answer it after the recess.
JUDGE CARTER: You probably will have to repeat part of the answer, because it has not been taken down.
DR. LATERNSER: Vary well.
(In recess until three-fifteen o'clock)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed. I don't know how much of the last question or the last answer was on the tape, so you'd better ask it again.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Yes, Your Honor.
Q Field Marshal, you were just enumerating the reasons why you remained in office in spite of the excesses which had become known.
A I said that Hitler came to power legally so that was no reason for us to leave the service, all the more so, since we did not serve the party but the fatherland, so as we had done in the Weimar Republic, as long as this Republic enjoyed the confidence of the people. Furthermore, I was of the opinion that the purely objective activity of the Reichswehr, especially of the officers corps which knew only the cause and their duty, and the fact that I would carry out this idea in general, and I was of the opinion that just in such times of political unrest it was necessary for the elements of peace that they should remain at their posts.
Q You mentioned before transgression by the party into the territory of the Wehrmacht. Did you object against such attempts at transgressions against the Wehrmacht?
A Yes. In 1933 until 1938, as long as I was a commanding general, I frequently made representations to the Gauleiter.
Q It was only in 1938?
A No, from 1933 to 1938.
Amongst other things, it was at the time of 30 June 1934 the Roehm putsch, when excesses commenced by the SS. In the same night, I sent a staff officer to the office of the Minister Reichenau and at that time asked him if he would take care that these excesses ceased.
Q And were you supported in this?
A Emphatically, in these attempts, my chief of staff, who was later general of the artillery Olbricht.
Q What was the result of your step on the 30th of June 1934?
A Unfortunately, it was not successful.
Q Did you also on other important occasions object against methods taken by the party?
A Later on, yes.
Q When?
A 1938, on the occasion of the Jewish pogrom in Vienna.
Q What did you do then?
AAt that time I learned it first of all from the newspaper and then I went to my office and when I was certain about events which had happened and I sent the staff officer to the Gauleiter at that time and told him that he should take care that these events did not recur.
Q. Did you also apply to some other office?
A. At the same time, I went to the police president and I told my commanders that if soldiers took part in those kinds of things then they must intervene and punish them.
Q. What sort of happenings were they at that time?
A. In these Jewish programs, I didn't experience them myself. There were plunders and destructions of shops and synagogues.
Q. In order to make this quite clear, when was it?
A. It was in November, 1938.
Q. Did you know Hitler before 1933?
A. No.
Q. When did you meet him for the first time?
A. I met him for the first time in late autumn, 1933, or perhaps winter, 1933-1934.
Q. When was that? On which occasion?
A. Well, I can't say in detail. It was some kind of official occasion.
Q. Then did you see him later on frequently?
A. During the course of the following years, of course I saw him. It may have been three times or four times a year.
Q. And what sort of meetings were they at that time?
A. They were either visits to the troops by Hitler or they were public meetings or it was a discussion which Hitler had in a large circle.
Q. Did you also have private discussions with Hitler?
A. Before the war, no.
Q. Did you go to conferences of a military kind with Hitler?
A. No, never.
Q. From when onwards did you count on the serious possibility of a war?
A. I did not count at all on a serious possibility of a war before the actual outbreak of war.
Q. What about summer, 1939?
A. In summer 1939, the situation was very tense, but I regarded Germany's armament at that time as such that a war could not come. In addition, the diplomatic solution of the Sudetendland and the protectorate had preceded and so I counted on the Polish question also being solved in this manner.
Q. What were you doing at that time of the crisis?
A. I was commander-in-chief of Army Group 5. And I received the order to carry out fortifications along the new Polish frontier and to visit troops which were not under my command.
Q. And what did you think would be the outcome at this time of crisis?
A. Well, I hoped and counted on the fact that as in other cases there would be a diplomatic solution.
Q. And what strengthened you in this view?
A. In this view, I was especially strengthened by the conclusion of the pact with Russia.
Q. But nevertheless war came. And as you have already said, in the Polish campaign you were commander-in-chief of the 14th army, and what was your commission at that time?
A. The 12th army was on the southern flank of Army Group Runstedt --that is, on the southern flank of the army group advancing towards the east and I had the task of going via Cracow in the direction of Lemberg.
Q. And did you get to Lemberg?
A. We got to Lemberg. We also took Lemberg but then in face of the advancing Russians we had to leave Lemberg to them with the oil fields between Lemberg and Prezmysl, including Prezmysl.
Q. Field Marshal, this evacuation before the Russians took place during the fighting then?
A. Yes, this took place during the fighting. At that time, the fixed demarcation line, as a result of the pressure of the Russians, had to be very quickly changed and repeatedly pushed back towards the west.
Q. How long did you remain in the eastern theater of war?
A. Until approximately the middle of October, 1939.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. From there I went with the staff of the 11th Army which was then called Army Group 12 to the west to army group von Bock.
Q. Of what intentions did Field Marshal von Berk inform you?
A. When I arrived in Godesberg, Field Marshal von Bock, who was then general told me at that time rather agitatedly that Hitler was having ideas of operations against England and France.
Q. If you say ideas about operations, what do you mean by this ?
A. I mean an aggressive intention.
Q. What was Field Marshal von Bock's attitude towards this?
A. General von Bock rejected this idea and he told me of this idea of Hitler's -- they were obviously the first thoughts-and he was all excited about it.
Q. And what was your attitude towards this?
A. My attitude was the same as that of General von Bock.
Q. What did you do in order to make your attitude clear to your superiors? I mean your attitude towards these aggressive actions?
A. I talked with some of my commanding generals, with my chief, I worked out a short memo and this memo I presented it to General von Brauchitsch when he came to visit me. This memo contained the idea that I was of the opinion that one should try to avoid a new war and to find a peaceful and diplomatic solution.
Q. And what was Brauchitsch's opinion at that time?
A. Brauchitsch shared my opinion entirely and he instructed me that when I had the opportunity I should submit it to Hitler the same as I submitted it to him.
I was under the impression that Brauchitsch wanted this as a support for his own opinion.
Q. And did you later receive any answer to this representation?
A. Well, an indirect answer, in so far as Hitler called the generals including all the commanding general, I think it was in November, 1934, to come to Berlin.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, that is a wrong translation. It would be November, 1939. You said 1934.
A. I received an indirect answer through Hitler who in November, 1939, called the generals together in Berlin. At this discussion, he told us all his ideas and reproached us older generals with timidity.