Q. Would you please give the name also for the record?
A. I went and saw Field Marshal List, and informed him of the telegram which had come in from Berlin. He asked me at once how else he could help me. I told him that it was my intention to fly to Berlin in order to have this decision reversed, if possible, and Field Marshal List immediately offered to give me a letter for this purpose, by virtue of which it would be possible, despite Ribbentrop's order, to get the Food Ministry -- that is to say, Backe -- and the Four Year Plan, which was Koerner -- to release wheat for these supplies.
I must say had I not had List's support for this, I really would not have known where to turn at that moment.
Q. Did the wheat reach Greece?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. And for whose benefit was it used?
A. The benefit of the Greek population, mainly. Mainly the capital of Athens in the Italian Zone of Occupation.
Q. What was the attitude, quite generally, of Field Marshal List toward the Greek population?
A. Well, as should be seen from what I have said so far, he was full of sympathy, kindly. Apart from the food supplies, once when an air field near Athens was to be established -- unless I am must mistaken it was called Ekale.
Q. What was that airfield?
A. That airfield was to be extended and for that purpose a quarter of the town or city was to be eliminated. Prime Minister Zolacoglou went and called on Field Marshal List, and the decision was reversed.
Q. Did you have frequent contact with Greek agencies, and important Greek personalties at that time?
A. All of the time I was permanently in contact with them, that was my field of work.
Q. What opinions were expressed by those men concerning Field Marshal List and his work?
A. It was my impression that Field Marshal List was highly respected, and I think that the examples which I have given should suffice to explain this.
JUSTICE CARTER: The Tribunal will take its afternoon recess at this time.
(Tribunal in recess until fifteen hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed, Dr. Laternser.
Q. (By Dr. Laternser) I have a very few questions yet to be put to the witness. Dr. Altenburg, we just discussed tho attitude shown by Field Marshal List towards the Greek population. Do you know the case of the three Naval officers who escaped and later on were put before a court martial?
A. At the time, in summer 1941, three Greek naval officers who had been dismissed from prisoner-of-war camps, had tried, against the prohibition existing for Greek prisoners of military rank, to leave the country in a motorboat in order to go to Cairo and there to put themselves at the disposal of the Greek exiled government.
They were found by a motor cruiser and sentenced to death by a German court martial because they had violated the law not to leave the country. I intervened at the time on the request of the families of the Greek soldiers involved and made representations to Field Marshal List who was supposed to confirm tho verdict. List cancelled the verdict.
Q. What happened to the three naval officers?
A. They had to give an assurance to show a loyal attitude to the occupation forces and then they were put at liberty.
Q. That was an action which took place in connection with three Greek naval officers?
A. Yes, they were three Greek naval officers.
Q. What was the attitude shown by Field Marshal List in cases where his own soldiers -- let's say for instance - plundered?
A. I believe it was in June or the beginning of July, 1941, when he told me that he had to pronounce a number of death sentences against German soldiers who had plundered. He said in addition. "Do you believe that's easy for me to do a thing like that? But it was necessary to maintain law and order." That was approximately the contents of his remark to me.
Q. What was the part played by General List with regard to the Jewish question, when you were together with him in Athens?
A. None at all, not for Greece anyway.
Q. Were there any restrictions issued for the Jewish population there?
A. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Q. Then there is one case I'd like to discuss. Do you know that in Crete there was an operation to conquer this island and that on that occasion there were mutilations on German parachutists?
A. According to reports by the troops of which I heard, such things occurred.
Q. What was done as a counter action?
A. Those were people who had been caught by trees when parachuting down.
Q. What was ordered by Goering as a consequence?
A. Goering at the time issued an order to retaliate in the most ruthless manner and we all were shocked by this order.
Q. And what did Field marshal List do as a consequence?
A. Field Marshal List, in connection with General Student, took up an attitude which opposed these orders and then very detailed investigations were started concerning the extent of those atrocities, by order of Field Marshal List. If I remember correctly a very detailed report was submitted by him to higher agencies and this had the result that Goering's order was nipped in the bud.
Q. And what was the consequence of this action taken by Field Marshal List?
A. One can only say that he saved the lives of many thousands of Crete inhabitants because if Goering's order had been put into practice, that would have meant a catastrophe for Crete.
DR. LATERNSER: I thank you. I have no further questions.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. MENZEL (Counsel for defendant Kuntze):
Q. Dr. Altenburg, you will recall that on the 8th of July, 1947 you executed an affidavit for the defendant General Kuntze?
A. Yes, I do remember that.
Q. Through the fact that you personally are present here, this is superseded and I will now put a few questions to you concerning the general situation in the Balkans as well as General Kuntze's attitude. First of all, lot us discuss the general situation. Do you know that in the Balkans at that time the railroad lines were particularly threatened by the Partisans through sabotage acts, et cetera?
A. If I may deal in detail with this for a moment, the facts were that when the troops withdrew, streets, bridges, viaducts, et cetera had been blown up and all usable ships and shipping space in the country before the German troops had invaded the country had been taken back so that it was one of the first tasks to repair the roads and bridges and to build up the viaducts, to repair locomotives and wagons and to put the railroad line which connected Athens with the north back into order, because that was the main supply route and communication line for the civilians as well as for the occupation forces.
There was one large viaduct which was blown up twice during my stay there by the Partisans after it had been repaired, and it was the constant endeavor of the Germans to repair and to rebuild them as soon as possible so that the railroad line could be used again.
Q. You said before, when the troops withdrew. What were the troops you meant?
A. I meant the British and the Greek Troops.
Q. The British and the Greek, I see. And what was the main railroad line in the Balkans?
A. That was the line which I mentioned just now, the line AthensSalonika and from Salonika north to Belgrade.
Q. Was this railway line of a special importance for the civilian population also?
A. Yes, it was, particularly so because the se* route was rendered very uncertain through submarines and a number of our transports were bombed, as for instance, the wheat supplies for Athens on the line Salonika-Athens. The Adriatic Sea also was very insecure and the approaching route through the Adria to Corinth was also endangered. Actually secure, if one leaves out for the moment the possibility of attack by partisans, was only the land route, and this railroad line was the one which was of main importance for the supply of the civilian population as well as for the supply of the occupation troops.
Q. Concerning the line Salonika-Sofia was this one also of decisive importance?
A. No, to the best of my knowledge it was a one-track-line which led via Cerniki. According to what I heard the supplies were sent down from Belgrade to Salonika and were distributes from there.
Q. The supply situation of the civilian population in Greece, for instance was it only endangered in wartime or had it been, to the best of your knowledge, an unfavorable one even before that?
A. I don't understand the question.
Q. Was the situation this, that Greece could supply itself before the war and was only in food difficulties during the war?
A. No, the countryside could always be self-supporting, but Athens and Salonika, the large cities of the country, above all Athens which during the war had about eight hundred thousand inhabitants before the war and during the war 1,300,000 inhabitants, needed, of course, food supplements from outside, considerable food supplements.
Q. Just before you mentioned that after the German troops had invaded the country the supply lines and communication lines were put in order again.
A. That was not only worked at by the Germans but also very considerably so by the Italians as it is well known the Italians are very good at road building.
Q. In this initial period, 1941 and 1942, was at that time the aid from Switzerland and Turkey and Sweden in action?
A. Yes, it was from Turkey. The Red Half Moon sent two ships which brought in beans and other foodstuffs from Turkey, but that was an action which was not of a considerable importance. It was merely to express a friendly relation which existed between Turkey and Greece. The Swedish and Swiss relief work, if I remember the date correctly, started about the fall or winter of 1942-1943. There was a gentleman there first who was sent by Senator Sandstroem, and Senator Sandstroem came to the Balkans in spring 1943, and then the whole action started rolling properly.
Q. Mainly then it was an action in 1943?
A. That is so.
Q. You mentioned just before, that the German armed forces helped the civilian population with food and medical supplies?
A. Yes, and I can confirm that.
Q. Was that help, during the years 1941 and 1942, particularly important because the relief action from Sweden and Switzerland had only started properly in 1943?
A. I would like to put it that way. The situation was that, that every sack of wheat and every sack of beans was of particular importance. It was not only that the foodstuffs were put at the disposal but also the means of transportation, gasoline, et cetera, had to be put at their disposal. Sea planes, for instance, which had to bring supplies to the islands, all these instruments had to be put at the disposal from the Wehrmacht which acted very helpfully in this respect.
Q. What was the case, for instance, if foodstuffs were put at the disposal but the railroad lines were blown up, and therefore the foodstuffs could not be distributes to Athens or wherever else they were needed?
A. There were repeatedly emergency columns put up at the right time when just a sudden shortage occurred at some place, in order to bring in the supplies. In those cases the Wehrmacht put up the necessary vehicles and gasoline.
Q. And what was the situation in the German Armed Forces? Were gasoline and trucks available to such an extent that this additional use played no particular part or was it rather the situation that things were short and had to be saved?
A. To the best of my knowledge gasoline was very short.
Q. It was, was it?
A. Yes, gasoline was very scarce. In any case we had directives to save as much as we possibly could everywhere. On the other band it was of vital importance to get the food distributed and that is why the Armed Forces jumped into the breach.
Q. Now, if you had some information that there were great disruptions on railroad lines, what was the attitude shown then by the Greek population, by the Greek government. Was the Greek government pleased or worried?
A. As could be shown by the situation which prevailed, the government could only be worried. I know that when the one large viaduct which I mentioned before -- unfortunately I don't recall the name -- when a few months after it had first been rebuilt, it was exploded again, everybody was deeply shocked and disturbed because everybody realized that new delays would be the consequence. The Italians were very quick at repairing the viaduct.
Q. Do you know anything of the fact that the German Armed Forces fought malaria in the interests of the civilian population?
A. To the best of my recollection there were two instances when a certain Professor Rodenwald came down to the Balkans and he fought malaria with the civilians as well as with the Armed Forces.
He had to give an expert opinion and to check up on measures which had been and were to be taken to fight the disease. This action was not only restricted to distributing of medical supplies, but also the sources of the illness were destroyed and gasoline was put at the disposal of the troops to destroy the breeding places of these insects and that was how the action was started and carried out.
Q. You mentioned just before that the Greek government frequently brought requests to you and that you went to the German Armed Forces for help and assistance in such cases. Can you tell us something about the frequency? Did it happen once a month or did it happen almost daily?
A. It's very difficult to express this in numbers. It was frequent if you want to put it that way. It took place currently, constantly.
Q. I see.
A. It's the same as, for instance, here or in Munich if houses are being requisitioned for the occupation forces and then there are a thousand questions for which the inhabitants want to stay in the houses, or let us say, there are a thousand questions considering the electric current, the electric supply, the transportation, water supply, all those questions are discussed frequently. The consideration of the interest of the civilian population compared with those of the occupation forces, all those are questions which crop up all the time.
Q. Now, if you consulted the Armed Forces on such frequent occasions, did it occur frequently that your request for assistance was refused?
A. No, I can't say that. I have repeatedly mentioned that I am very grateful for the understanding which I found when I approached the military agencies with requests for the Greek population and in those instances I found understanding and help.
Q Now a few questions, particularly about General Kuntze. Did you at the time know General Kuntze personally?
A Yes. He was Fieldmarshal List's successor in October, 1941. He remained, I believe, about a year or maybe nine months. He remained between nine months and a year.
Q What kind of a person was General Kuntze? Was he a man who flaunted his military power ruthlessly in the faces of those present or was he an objective person?
MR. FENSTERMAHCER: If your Honor please, I believe that the question is improper in form to ask this man's opinion of General Kuntze. I think he might ask what the general reputation of Kuntze was in Greece or in certain circles in which he was familiar with Kuntze.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The objection will be sustained.
BY DR. MENZEL:
Q How did General Kuntze seem to you personally? Did he seem to you-to be a man whose attitude was a strong one or-
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, my objection is the same as it was to the previous question.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The objection will be sustained. I think it is the feeling of the Tribunal that any facts that this witness might know he can testify to or if he knows anything about his general reputation, why he might testify to that but his personal views are not material here.
BY DR. MENZEL:
Q I shall refrain from asking this question and in conclusion I would like to ask you this. You mentioned before a large viaduct which was blown up twice. Was that the Gorgopotamus Bridge?
A That may be so. I don't want to tie myself down to the name. It was the largest viaduct which had to be crossed by the train.
Q I see.
A It may well be that that was its name but I can't be sure about it.
Q One other question. Is it known to you that on the Balkans the relationship between the German Armed Forces and the Jews was such that a number of officers were quartered with Jews?
A I did not hear anything specific about this.
Q You don't know?
A It may be so but I know nothing for certain. What I would like to say, however, is that in Athens where I myself lived there were very few Jew indeed.
Q And in Salonika?
A In Salonika, as is well known, there was a large Jewish settlement; where the military were billeted I couldn't tell you. I never heard anything about it; therefore, I can make no statements.
Q Do you know from the time, period 1941-42, whether these many Jew in Saloniki whom you mentioned just now continued to live in their own houses as they had done before?
A Certainly.
Q As citizens?
A Yes, certainly.
Q Or were they driven from their homes?
A No, no, certainly not. During those days there was no unrest anywhere. I am quite certain if any such thing had taken place, I would have been told about it and I would have been asked to do something about it. This, however, did not happen.
Q And now to my last question, in conclusion. Just before you mentioned that, when you brought your requests of the civilian population to the Armed Forces, you found help there. Can you confirm that this also applied to the time when General Kuntze was Armed Forces Commander Southeast?
A Yes, I can confirm that.
Q That would be the period end of 1943?
A Yes, it took place during that time too. Absolutely.
Q I thank you. I have no further questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Any further questions by the Defense? You may cross-examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Dr. Altenburg, you were the foreign minister of the German Foreign Office in Athens from April 1941 until January 1943?
A Yes.
Q You had a good many discussions, did you not, with various German military commanders in Greece during that period regarding the subject of reprisal measures?
A Could you specify that question, please?
Q Did you have discussions with various German military leaders in Greece during the period, during which you were Foreign Office Representative, regarding the taking of reprisal measures against the Greek population for various sabotage attacks or attacks upon German soldiers stationed in Greece?
A Yes, in June 1942, with General Andrae.
Q With whom else did you speak on that subject?
AAlways then when my attention was called by the Greek population to reprisal measures. In most instances, I did not restrict myself to the individual cases of such reprisal measures but I even intervened in the case of verdicts of court martials, yes particularly in the case of verdicts by court martials, when the families of the convicted men or the Greek government intervened. I took up contact with German military authorities in such cases.
Q Did you ever talk to Fieldmarshal List, General Kuntze, General Felmy, and General Speidel on that subject?
A I believe at times, as for instance in the case of hostage shootings which afterwards were not carried out in June 1942, when I happened to be in Sofia and when allegedly the hostage shootings had been ordered for the next day, I sent a telegram to General Kuntze and asked him to intervene and to see to it that nothing happened until on the next day I would be back in Athens.
Then I broke off my leave and on the next morning flew back to Athens where I talked to General Andrae who saw to it that the shootings were not carried out. Therefore, in that particular instance, General Kuntze showed some action.
Q Now, Dr. Altenburg, the question of reprisal measures and the shooting of hostages was a very important one for you as the political representative of the Reich in Greece, was it not? It was important because you wanted to make the occupation a political success?
A That was just it. In the preliminary examinations, I stated that the difficulty of my situation was that I had an order from Ribbentrop which forbade me to interfere in reprisal measures ordered and carried out by military agencies which had been deemed necessary for the maintenance of law and order. Independent of what I did in Berlin to counteract this order, also on the soot, as soon as I learned of those instances, where I gave you as an example this case of June 1942, I approached the military agencies. I don't know whether the military agencies knew of the order which I had from Ribbentrop. All I can say is, however, that the Andrae case in June 1942 showed that my representations accompanied by steps taken by the Metropolitan by the Greek Prime Minister, General Zolacoglou and by my Italian colleague, had the result that the action was not carried out as intended.
Q What was your attitude towards reprisal measures? Were you in favor of them?
A No, by no means. I believe this question is superfluous because in actual fact my attitude in this question was well known.
Q Did you ever talk to General Speidel about reprisal measures?
A Yes, I did too.
Q Did you ever succeed in persuading General Speidel to revoke orders previously issued for the execution of hostages?
A There was one case about which I testified during my preliminary examination where on the basis of an information saying that the next day hostages were to be shot, I wanted to contact General Speidel and learned that he was absent from Athens.
I talked instead to an officer of his staff who informed me that there was no need for excitement and that things were not ready for action yet and the General was not present. He said there was no danger at the moment.
I asked that before the final decision was made in the case in question, I was allowed to contact the agency again and the officer concerned told me that I could do this. The next morning, however, I learned that the shooting was carried out just the same. How that happened I was in no position to clear up. The General was still away from Athens--I mean General Speidel, and during his absence, since the officer with whom I had talked the previous day had since left for leave, I talked to one of his ADC's. I asked the gentleman concerned how such a thing could have happened.
He said he didn't know and I said that I had been promised that I would be able to confer again before anything happened. Altogether, I was unable to clear the matter up. I want to state that in another case which occurred later, General Speidel showed understanding and met me half way and on representations by the Greeks and my own representations he refrained from carrying out a reprisal measure. In this one case which was not clear, and where he was absent from Athens, we have to check up and find out how it happened that I was not given an opportunity to confer again and how it happened that I could be told on the previous day "Don't be excited. Things are not about to happen," yet and then on the next morning I learned that they have already happened. I have never been able to understand that.
Q General Speidel had the power to revoke orders for the execution of hostages, did he?
A Whether he for his person had to consult with other agencies, I don't know. In this particular case, he was the one I contacted and he was the one who informed me that the action had been stopped. Also, where one court martial was concerned, I was informed by him that the men had been pardoned on whose behalf I had contacted him.
Q In other words, when you wanted hostage executions called off, you went to see General Speidel?
A Yes.
Q Now, Dr. Altenburg, what was your opinion regarding the taking of reprisal measures and the shooting of hostages at ratios of one to ten or one to fifty or one to seventy-five? Did you think that would increase your own problem from a political standpoint?
A That was the very reason why I saw myself forced to take up contact with the military agencies in these questions. That is also the reason why I always objected to this order of Ribbentrop that I should not be able to take up contact with military agencies. I realized, of course, that such measures would bring unrest among the civilian population.
Q. You felt that orders for the execution of hostages in a fixed ratio were criminal orders, did you not?
A. Yes. May I say...
DR. LATERNSER: I object. I object to this question. Mr. Fenstermacher is asking the witness whether these were criminal orders. That is a legal question which can only be decided by the Tribunal not by this witness.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honor please, I don't see how we can evaluate the character reference which the defendant has given for List, Kuntze, and Felmy unless we know his attitude towards these various reprisal measures.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection will be sustained.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Do you know, Dr. Altenburg, to whom Schimana was subordinate?
A. Schimana, to the best of my knowledge, for tactical purposes, was subordinated to the Military Commander. However, he received, again to the best of my knowledge, certain direct instructions in police matters from the Reichsfuehrer SS.
Q. Do you recall writing a statement on the 9th of April, 1947, regarding your activities in Greece?
A. Yes. Yes, I do.
Q. Would you look at this statement and tell me whether this is the one which you wrote at that time?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: If it please the Tribunal, I object to this document being submitted. It was not subject of direct examination and can therefore not be submitted now under cross-examination.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: It is laying a foundation, if your Honor please. Rather, I have already laid the foundation.
THE PRESIDENT: The foundation for impeachment?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Yes, if your Honor please.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The objection will be overruled at this time.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Dr. Altenburg, is that statement written in your own hand?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Would you look at the bottom of page five? Did you write there these words?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. I cannot follow the proceedings because I haven't got a copy of this examination but I am very interested in following these proceedings. I am objecting to this question being asked as long as I have not got a copy of the record.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The Tribunal is hardly in a position to rule until it know what the statement is. I believe it would be better if you wait until after the statement is read and then make your motion if one is proper, Dr. Laternser.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Did you write these words, Dr. Altenburg?
A. Well, I want to know which words you mean?
Q. That is what I am coming to. "After the Italian collapse shortly before my formal departure, the German military administration was established throughout the whole of Greece. General Speidel who up till then..."
A. Just a moment, please. Is that supposed to be my page five or your page five?
Q. I believe it is on your page five. "After the Italian collapse shortly before my formal departure, the German military administration was established throughout the whole of Greece and General Speidel who up till then had been Military Commander South was appointed Military Commander.
The Supreme SS and Police Chief assisted him. Later, after a few weeks, Schimana was subordinate to him?"
A. Yes, that is what I said. I said "subordinated in tactical respects."
Q. You didn't add the words "in a tactical respect" at that time, Dr. Altenburg. Will you tell us why?
A. Because that is a technical term.
Q. Did General Speidel have power to order Schimana not to take reprisal measures?
A. Could you ask this question again please? Could you please repeat the question?
(The interpreter repeated the question.)
A. The question of competency in this instance is not quite clear to me.
Q. You were in Athens from April 1941 until November 1943 in a very important political post. At the same time in Athens were General Speidel, General Felmy, and General Schimana. You must know who was competent to order reprisal measures in case of attacks on German troops who were stationed in Athens, in case of sabotage of German installations, or railroad lines or communication lines?
A. Well, I think I am the best person to know what I had to know at the time and what I didn't have to know, and I am making statements here to the best of my conscience and knowledge. That is my duty as a witness. General Schimana came down there at the time when I was about to leave. He visited me on the very day or rather just a moment--when I went there to say goodbye, that was towards the end of October, so that this whole relation was never quite clear to me and in view of the fact that I was leaving I did not have to know much about them. During my preliminary examination, I told Mr. Rapp to ask Envoy Neubacher who was there much longer than I was and I said that he would be in a position to really give some clear statements about the facts.
I don't know whether this answer is sufficient.
Q. You don't know who ordered reprisal measures to be taken in Athens in retaliation for attacks upon German troops during the period April 1941-November 1943?
A. I am giving you here this one incident which I mention as an example and then there was one other case. Those are the two instances where I conferred with General Speidel and also I consulted with General Speidel because of the cancelling of one or two death sentences pronounced by court martials and there again he met me half way.
Q. Would you please answer my question, Dr. Altenburg? Do you know who was competent to order reprisal measures in Athens during the period within which you were in Athens?
A. The Military Commander Southern Greece and later on the Military Commander.
Q. And who were those individuals at the time when you were in Athens?
A. They were first of all General Felmy and then General Speidel.
Q. Do you recall any reprisal measures taken during April 1941 and November 1943 other than those which you have already mentioned?
A. May I have a look at this statement or is that not allowed?
Q. Please, do.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW (Defense Counsel for defendant Felmy): Your Honor, I am objecting on principle to this questioning because it has nothing to do with what I asked on direct examination. These questions cannot be made the subject of cross examination.
JUDGE CARTER: The objection will be sustained.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, I would just like to ask permission of the Tribunal to make this witness my own for a limited number of questions in this regard.
DEFENSE COUNSEL: I object. This man is my witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The whole thing has a rather peculiar aspect. Is this man under indictment?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I don't believe, he is, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: And he has been detained here since April of 1947?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I believe that was because he was in an automatic arrest category, Your Honor.
JUDGE BURKE: What is an automatic arrest category?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: As I understand it, Military Government has sot up certain categories - for example, membership in the SD and such other organizations that were found to be criminal organizations by the International Military Tribunal.
JUDGE BURKE: The question of his reliability and his credibility may be a matter of some importance to the Tribunal. Obviously - at least, as one member of the Tribunal, I should like to know whether the man is guilty of any offense, whether he has a criminal record, whether he is under any indictment or whether he is simply being detained.
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, the witness said he is no longer in an automatic arrest category.