That did not appear on my list particularly as the troop warehouse camps reported to us at the end of the month that, for instance, they would have supplied food for about 40,000 men and the report included the item what troop, for instance, Police Battalion 387, or Guard Unit, whatever designation it had, the strength of it - but one could not see from that what camp they were guarding; the village or location was not indicated; nor could one see anything particular from these reports, what outside camps there were, or what subsidiary camps.
JUDGE THOMS: A recess will be taken.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. MAYER (for the defendant Kiefer): Your Honor, I would like to make a request at this time. As Attorney Hoffmann has requested the Tribunal to postpone the case of the defendant Scheide for a short period of time, we must count on the fact that the defendant Kiefer will be called as a witness tomorrow. I therefore request that the defendant Kiefer be excused from the session this afternoon so as to enable me to talk to him.
THE PRESIDENT: The request is granted.
DR. MAYER: Thank you very much, Your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION -- Continued DEFENDANT TSCHENTSCHER -- Resumed BY DR. PRIBILLA:Q.- Witness, you are an administrative officer, aren't you?
Who, in your opinion, was responsible when the food and clothing situation in a concentration camp was unsatisfactory?
A.- How the responsibility was divided in the concentration camp system and in particular camps I do not know either. According to the general rules, as I have stated before, that was the task of the concentration camp commandants. In this special case it was the task of the camp commander, and at the lower level it was the task of his administrative officer.
Q.- The bad conditions which prevailed in the concentration camp system about which many witnesses have testified here, in particular the death rate and the death charts --- I now want to ask you if you ever heard anything about these things officially or unofficially. That is to say, in particular about an unusually high death rate as a result of starvation, freezing or exhaustion?
A.- No, I never had the opportunity to hear about these things.
Q.- Would it have been within your field of task to obtain knowledge of these things and to correct bad conditions wherever they prevailed?
A.- No, I could only have had such knowledge if I had had the right to carry out the supervision. However, I did not have that right. I did not even have that right in other respects, as I have already testified.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q.- Witness, you might easily learn about something without it being involved in your field of task.
A.- Yes, I have already said if I had been in direct contact, officially or unofficially, with concentration camps. However, I met these people so rarely and I had so little contact with them. I have already stated that Burger came to see me three or four times, and I shall in a few minutes refer to this case of Burger in detail. I shall refer to it later.
Q.- Well, you seem to be under the impression that unless you heard about something officially, you didn't know about it. How, I learn about things that have nothing to do with my office every day; nobody tells me about them officially, but still I learn about them. Now, the question is: Didn't you ever hear of the extermination in Auschwitz?
A.- No. Of Auschwitz in particular I heard only after I became a prisoner. I shall refer to that in a few minutes. I heard only once about bad conditions in the Camp Dora, which was a branch camp of Buchenwald. I shall soon describe that in detail.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q.- My question to you, witness, was whether you had knowledge about any specific high death rate as a result of exhaustion, starvation or freezing in the concentration camps. I now ask you to give us your answer once more and not to limit it to if you heard officially about it. I want you to tell us whether you obtained any general knowledge of it.
A.- I have never heard anything about it, and I was unable to obtain such knowledge myself. I could have done it, but I would then have exceeded my authority.
That is to say, I would have had to go to a concentration camp with my car. I would have had to enter it, but I was not allowed to do that. The commander certainly would have made a complaint about me, and I probably would have been punished afterwards. The seclusion of the concentration camps did not attract my particular attention because I too forbade any unauthorized persons to enter my troop economic depots, which actually were harmless enough, because I did not want unauthorized persons going around there and drawing wrong conclusions from the fact that there were large stocks there.
Q Is it correct that a special permission was required whenever you wanted to enter a concentration camp?
A Yes, of course, I also had to have such a permission. I already mentioned before that during the tour at Dachau I had received a special invitation, and when later on I had to go to Dora - I shall speak about it later - I had a special order and the permission of Pohl.
During the war there were so many restricted areas which even high officers in uniform were not allowed to enter. Every sentry could prevent any persons from entering such an area. Even as an officer there were many things we could not do, so that this limitation with regard to the concentration camps did not surprise or astonish me at all.
Q During your activity in the WVHA did you overhear anything from members of the WVHA or did you receive reports from other persons which described to you clearly and in detail just what was going on in the concentration camps, quite generally speaking and regardless of who told you?
A No, that has never happened. I have repeatedly pointed out that we were kept increasingly busy as our tasks increased. Whenever we had some time off so that we really could have a meeting among comrades, then, of course, we talked to each other privately just like other people. In society, in general, it is an unwritten law that you don't always talk about professional matters. In Germany that is called only "to talk shop", just referring to professional matters, and we liked to get away from that, and we would talk about the most unimportant matters. He would talk about the movies, theater, about hunting trips, or whatever was of interest to us.
Q Witness, you yourself have stated that in one certain case you did obtain knowledge about conditions in a certain camp, and that in that case you also play a certain part in it. You have described to us just what your competence was that you had nothing to do with these things. However what was it that brought about this case, and what are the reasons for your discussing it here?
A In that case C only played a part by accident. At the time, as I have already stated, this was a so-called Mittelwork, which was also called Dora. At the time it was a branch camp of Buchenwald. Later on it became an independent camp. I would like to state in advance here that I myself in the pre-trial interrogation have mentioned this matter as proof of the fact that whenever we would find out something about bad conditions, even agencies which were not directly concerned would help, and if possible we would supply the concentration camps from the stocks of our troops. It was not thus that the Prosecution has reproached me with that case on the basis of any other evidence. I have the impression are now being understood to mean, or being interpreted to mean as if this voluntary assistance by sacrificing our stocks was an obligation on our part, that is to say, that we were obliged to take care, of the inmates constantly and permanently. However that is not true. The situation was as follows: At the beginning of October, I was transferred to the WVHA. At the time I considered it appropriate to pay to pay a short visit to the higher offices chiefs to introduce myself and to report to them. After approximately four weeks, it must have been early in November, 1943, I went to see Hammier. He was Chief of Amtsgruppe C for "Charlie". Kammler asked me about my previous assignment, and then he asked whether I know anything about clothing, billeting and feeding. I told him that this was or had been my special field of task as administrative officer. He then asked me whether I could help him out in one particular case. He had to establish a certain plant and difficulties had arisen there with regard to the supplies. He wanted to ask Pohl whether he would agree. Of course, I was prepared to work there. Pohl gave his agreement, and he ordered me to go to this place with Kammler and to see whether everything was going on all right, and to assist wherever it was possible for me to do so.
My participation did not arise from my official competence, but it arose from a personal and accidental conversation which I had with Kammler.
Q Did Kammler not request your assistance because he thought you were competent in this matter?
A No. That was Kammler his impulsive nature. He accidentally realized that he was confronted by an export in that field, and he assigned me to that task. He would have done the same thing with anybody else whom he possibly considered capable.
Q Where was this plant located where you want, and just how was it established?
A On the next morning after a conversation Kammler went to Nordhausen together with me. In that locality near Nordhausen a place by the name of Niedersachswerffen there were caves which already existed in former times. These caves were being extended at that period of time, and armament production works were to be installed there. As the Allied air attacks increased in intensity and frequency. I took it from the conversation that new weapons were to no produced there, and later on I heard that the so-called "V" weapons were being produced. The project was carried out under certain other names, but that probably was for security reasons. The work there at Niedersachswerffen must have begun at the end of August or early in November, 1943.
Q Who showed you the camp and whom did you negotiate with there?
A I was accompanied by Kammler. He showed me around. Two construction places were visited. The first one may have been the plant which was formerly called Laura. This designation has repeatedly appeared in the various trials. The second plant was Dora. First of all we inspected the construction area which was very large. Two big tunnels had been built into the mountain. Each one of them was approximately three kilometers long, and from these main tunnels big shafts went two ways into the mountain forming a criss-cross pattern. One needed one hour to walk through the area.
In these tunnels there were also railway tracks, while in the side shafts smaller tracks had been installed. I have seen in the files now that the prisoners had been driven or pushed around these tracks of fifty kilometers.
It was not so that this was just one stretch which was fifty kilometers long, but if you totaled the main and side line into one line it may have amounted to approximately fifty kilometers.
During this inspection and this negotiation later on the Commander of Buchenwald, Pistor was also present. Then the Commander of Dora, Sturmbannfuehrer Foerschner, was also there. I believe that Barnewald, the administrative officer, came a little later. Then the chief physician of Buchenwald, Dr. Schiedlausky, must also have been there. I cannot remember his presence any more, but Schiedlausky has now stated in an affidavit that he saw me on that occasion.
Later on I attended the conferences, and I heard Kammler had reproached the came administration because of the bad supply system. The camp administration on its part excused itself by saying that its supplies had beed hampered through air attacks, since railroad tracks had been destroyed and since transport had been altered.
Q What bad conditions were you able to observe there in detail?
A First of all I was able to see that the clothing there was insufficient, especially since it had become rather cold at the end of October. Warm woolen clothes for the inmates were lacking in particular.
The billeting of the inmates also was insufficient. Barracks had been established for that purpose in the open. However, they were insufficient Only a small number of inmates could live in these barracks. The remainder of the inmates, approximately fifteen hundred to two thousand of them had temporarily been housed in the shafts, of course, were very large. They were eight to twelve meters high in my estimation. However, the air was very bad in there because no ventilation system had been installed. The inmates there slept in bunks, four on top of each other, and there were not sufficient bed covers. Some blankets were there, but not a sufficient number.
The light system there was extremely bad, and these people in that bad light looted specially gray, dust from the stones severed their faces and they made a very bad impression for a sight.
I also believe that the food in itself also was insufficient. Under normal conditions improbably would have been sufficient. However, it was not sufficient since the inmates had to do a lot of work.
Medical care also was insufficient. As far as I was able to observe at the time, this rather big camp did not have its own physician. The medical personnel there consisted of inmates, and they were only medical assistants. The story went around at the time that the number of people who reported for sick call every morning was rather high. I know that on this day the people on sick call amounted to about forty. Cases of death did not occur at the beginning. However, later on I heard that inmates had died, probably as a result of exhaustion and also as a result of colds.
I must say that I did not need any confirmation because just when I saw the people it was rather unnerving; and one could count on the fact that when an epidemic occurred the inmates did not any longer have any physical resistance and one could predict that a catastrophe might occur in that field. I only had one thought, to help them as quickly and to as large an extent as possible so that these things would not happen.
Kammler himself at the time said that he wanted to have the prisoners work in three shifts. Thus the prisoners were to work for eight hours. Then they were to sleep for eight hours. For an additional eight hours they were to stay in the barracks in the open air. The barracks had already been completed in part. However, the inside facilities had not yet been finished. During the daytime these barracks could be used as a temporary shelter. That is what Kammler told me at the time.
On the following morning we again made a short inspection. On this occasion we saw only the confirmation of what we had seen the day before. There I also saw the barracks which were being built. I saw that the water pipes (plumbing) had been installed and it had almost been completed. Kitchen facilities were being constructed as well as washing and shower facilities. A so-called delousing plant had also been established, and everything could have been sufficient for these three thousand prisoners.
We could count on the fact that in two or three weeks at the latest everything would be completed.
Q. Whom did you consider responsible for these conditions which you saw there? Did you give any thought to that matter?
A. Of course, I immediately thought over that question at the time. I was not sent there as an investigating official, but I was to help there. Of course, it was natural that I was looking for the guilty person there. Without any doubt it was a result of the pressure which was exerted in higher circles or agencies and the preparations had not been met carefully enough. Normally it was arranged so that first the barracks were established for the workers, enabling them to be billeted there, and then the other work would be started.
But in this case the second phase had been started before the first phase was completed. In addition to this, several other unfavorable factors were responsible. As I have already described, delay was caused through air attacks. Then the sudden cold which also impaired the work. There was also a certain clumsiness on the part of the camp administration which absolutely did not know what to do in this situation. However, I did not have the impression that this was done absolutely arbitrarily or that the camp administration was particularly uninterested. I did have another impression which surprised me at the time and which caused my having misgivings. That was that my appearance there and my desire for assistance made a bad impression on these people. These people seemed to be annoyed that I was there at all. That was with the exception of Kammler, who had taken me there.
Q. What steps did you take in detail?
A. First of all at noon of the following day Kammler returned with me to Berlin. He urged for the utmost speed. His main worry was that mass epidemics might take place there. That is to say, he was afraid of plagues. From Dora I had immediately given instructions by telephone to the various depots, telling them to turn over food from our stocks. In this case, however, other difficulties arose; and there was another misfortune there.
At that particular time there was ice on all the roads so that first of all the railway transports were hampered and now the truck transports on the highways also had a lot of difficulty in approaching their destination. After several days the additional food did arrive.
When I reached Berlin, I immediately contacted Office B II, that is, Lechler. I then asked him to give the clothing matter top priority. In the same way I contacted the agency of the Reich Physician SS. I drew the attention of these men to the conditions at Dora; and I urgently requested that a physician be assigned to that place and that medical personnel of the SS also be furnished. Finally I telephoned to the main medical depot at Berlin, asking them to put aside medicine and disinfection facilities for that camp. I believe that I also telephoned the Reich Ministry of Food on one of the following days; but today I cannot recall any longer just what resulted from these conferences. In this field I don't think that I was very successful. This I cannot recall anymore.
Q. When you informed these agencies and asked them for aid, did they offer resistance, or were these agencies ready to help you and were they prepared to take some steps?
A. It seems especially important to me that Lechler at the time was quite surprised and exclaimed that he did not know why he should take any steps. After all, he knew for certain that Burger, the Chief of Office D IV, had sufficient clothing at his disposal. Therefore, Burger only had to take these things out of a certain depot, and it could be furnished. In spite of this, I asked Lechler to intervene. Then on his own initiative he assisted in this action. I was also treated very well in this matter by the other agencies which I have previously named; and I also received the cooperation which I desired at all these agencies.
Q. Those were your steps in the other fields. However, what did you do yourself in the field where you were able to help, in the field of food?
A. Of course, I cannot tell today in detail just how much food I furnished at the time. I only know in approximation that a total of about twenty to thirty tons were furnished, that is to say, one to two wagon loads. For our situation at the time and the special condition there, that was quite a lot. Above all, we sent food which was high in calories--flour, peas, beans, canned meat, oils, fats, and also dehydrated fruits and rice. There is also the fact that we turned other post exchange items over to them as well. We supplied a large amount of rum, which usually was added to tea. We furnished cigarettes and toilet articles. All that will show that we were not only trying to give the inmates items of the utmost necessity but were really trying to make things easier for them. As far as possible we tried to give them a few little comforts.
Q. Was the food which you took away from your trop depots now to be the food of the inmates, or was it to be an addition to the food?
A. That was supposed to be an addition to their rations. They were to get this besides the usual food they received. It was our specific intention that these people be able to recover somewhat so that they would regain a better physical condition and be able to perform their work better.
Q. What happened now with regard to the other agencies with regard to the aid which these other agencies had promised to you? Were you able to observe whether the other agencies actually fulfilled their promises?
A. I know that for sure. I know that Amt B V furnished us with motor vehicles and fuel so that these things could be brought to the camp by truck convoys. Lechler also supported us and saw to it that the clothing was sent there. Shoes and the medical supplies were taken there as well by this same convoy.
It was an entire truck convoy, not merely a few trucks.
Q. Did you report to Pohl about your visit and about the measures which you had taken; and did you report to Gluecks?
A. Pohl had sent me there so I would gather information; and after I had taken these steps, I submitted a written report to Pohl on the following morning. I can still recall that Pohl at that time was very indignant about these conditions and that he used the expression, "That is terrible; that is unnerving." But Gluecks' attitude aroused my misgivings and surprised me. I did not know Gluecks personally at the time. During one of the next few days Gluecks called me by telephone. He seemed very indignant over the telephone. He reproached me and said that I had written my report too severely and had exaggerated the things. He gave me to understand, in other words, that I had only tried to make myself important and that things were not so bad after all. Above all he let me understand that if I ever interfered again in his business then I should at least contact him beforehand.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Then he made the statement that I could not judge the conditions in the concentration camp systems. He told me that they were different than in the Army. That was quite correct. I must admit that. I was very surprised at his charges. I could only answer that I had not had any reason to obtain his permission because after all, I had received this assignment from Pohl. On the other hand, I did not think too much about Gluecks' attitude because of course I had to conclude from his attitude that Pohl had reproached him about the matter. And after all, generals are also very touchy when someone reproaches them. That is quite understandable from the human point of view. Today, however, Gluecks' attitude shows to me that his attempt to keep unauthorized persons away from these places was for a good reason. Even if they came there to help. I did not realize to what extent this had been going on.
Q The special order which you received to examine the conditions in the Camp Dora was finished after you completed your reliefwork, or were you to continue making observations and taking care of that matter?
A No. My assignment was completed. However, after approximately three or four weeks, I was called by the newly-appointed administrative officer of Dora and he requested once more, if possible, to send additional food. However, he told me that the success would last for a longer period of time. I complied with this request, I sent as much food as I had sent the first time. Only on the second occasion, I did not add any PX items. However, I was convinced, at the time, that I had done my best. Above all, I had taken care of all angles from the human point of view. I am still convinced of that today.
Q In the following year, did you deal once more with this matter or with a similar special assignment?
AAt the same period of time, Kammler requested that I do something for another plant if this were possible. I do not know where this plant was located. I can only conclude today from the files Court No. II, Case No. 4.that this was Gusen near Linz.
At the time, he did not inform me of any details. He only told me quite generally, that some assistance vias always needed there. I had ordered the food depot at Linz to furnish some items, but I did not find out anything about any other details. Otherwise, on such occasions, I had nothing further to do with turning over additional food.
Q Witness, according to the course of the trial, it could be said that the difficulties in all the concentration camps for the most part began early in 1944. The Witness Kahr stated that early in 1944, big difficulties arose at Camp Dora. Did the Witness Kahr or any other person turn to you once more in 1944 for assistance or did anybody tell you about conditions at that time? Did you hear anything further?
A No. The matter was as I have stated before. Afterwards I received other assignments and I did not receive any other requests from any other agencies. I did not receive them from Kammler, Gluecks or any other administrative officer. In one of the affidavits, I think it is the one by Barnewald, it has been alleged that only through Dr. Kahr, was I sent there. However, that is incorrect, due to the time factor alone. I had only seen Dr. Kahr in the witness stand. That is the first time I saw him. Kahr states now that only in January 1944, was he transferred to Dora as a physician. I had been there already early in November 1943. Perhaps Kahr thought that is the way it was. However, his reports never reached me. Kahr also states that he only corresponded with Dr. Lolling. Gluecks can be considered as being responsible as they failed to notify us. On the one hand that is correct, because we were not competent. But they should have asked us once more whether we would be able to help them. However, I must state explicitely that this was not done. The difficulties really made their appearance from January to March 1944. As I have seen now, from the files, the main reason for that was that the plant now, all of a sudden, had been increased from 3000 inmates to 10,000 inmates. Of course no facilities had been prepared there for such a number of Court No. II, Case No. 4.workers.
Of course, this had to cause a crushing catastrophe. I admit that.
Q However, you did not find out anything at the time?
A I did not hear about it at the time, but the camp administration had to deal with that matter.
Q Witness, as far as your troop supplies or food are concerned, could you offer to furnish so much food for these purposes? You stated here that you were tied to the regulations of the Army Supply Office. Could you give such supplies without permission from a higher agency, or could you do it on your own initiative?
A No. I was not allowed to do that as far as the regulations were concerned because this stock was destined for the troops. However, of course, I always had some small stock, some surplus stock at my disposal. That is to say, I was given a round number. These things were not figured out exactly to the very gram. This surplus stock was also to be reserved for the troops, so that whenever the troop strength was increased, I would not have to make a new request all the time to increase the contingent. I helped the Camp Dora at the time from this reserve stock.
I did not have to give an exact account of this stock to the Army Supply Office. Of course, I did not tell them about the matter at the time. Otherwise, of course, I would not have been able to do that in accordance with prevailing regulations, at least not regularly.
Q Why could you not have done it regularly?
A Because the Army Administrative Office would have objected and it would have been pointed out to me, politely but firmly, that the Civilian Food Sector was responsible for the food for the inmates. Probably, I would have been told to turn to the Reich Food Ministry.
Q In this case, could you have refused to help?
A Yes. I believe if I had been a bureaucrat, and if I wanted to adhere very closely to my regulations, then, of course, people would have been able to say that I was a bureaucrat. Nobody could have re Court No. II, Case No. 4.proached me directly.
It was up to me and my position whether I wanted to do it or not. However, we also helped in other cases. I can recall, for example, when the Sector of Berlin-Steglitz was attacked so heavily at the time, and so much of it was destroyed, we helped out the civilian population for weeks.
Q Witness, what would have been the normal channel in this case for Dora?
A The normal channel would have been that I would have requested Burger to negotiate with the Reich Food Ministry or any Food Office which was competent. I could have carried out these negotiations myself, as an exception. However, since the authorities were rather clumsy, this would have taken up a lot of time. And I have already stated, I believe, that I did call the Reich Food Ministry at the time. However, they insisted on their regulations and they did not cooperate very much. I believe, today, that the channel which I chose was the quickest and the most favorable one.
Q Witness, if you saw all these things, and if you intervened, did you not have to draw the conclusion from your impressions, that quite generally speaking, human lives did not have very much value in the concentration camps. They were being treated very carelessly. There was a lot of indifference with regard to the welfare of the inmates?
A I must say that I had the impression to the contrary, after all the statements of any indignation made by Pohl or Kammler and also by the immediate help, which I found everywhere, e.g.V2 or the medical office. As an outsider, though, I could only draw the conclusion that this whole thing was an exceptional case even if it were to be regretted very much. After all, we were living through a war where all kinds of difficulties could arise. The supply difficulties which we faced here, unfortunately, also existed occasionally with the troops. I even know of cases where units had even more supply difficulties than Camp Dora which difficulties could have been disastrous.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
I think, then, I was justified in believing that this was an exceptional case rather than a case of indifference.
Q. Then Tschenfscher, did you ever hear anything about the fact that medical experiments were carried out on involuntary experimental subjects? in the concentration camps: Did you ever hear that people were killed in this way or that they were subjected to painful experiments?
A. No. Until the time when I became a prisoner I did not hear a word about all these things. May I also point out that at the time when the experiments were carried out I was in combat, so that I was unable to make any direct observations: that is to say, I was unable to see anything, not even accidently.
Q. Now it has been stated in letters that food experiments were to be carried out and that they were to be carried out on concentration camp inmates. Now, food was one of the tasks in your field. Did you ever hear of any human experiments in that field?
A. No. I never heard anything of such food experiments. Above all, I did not hear that such experiments were fatal or that they had any harmful effects. However, when I was in my office for a short period of time I heard something about the testing of a drug which was called Biosyn-Mycel.
Q. What do you know about that? By whom and why were these experiments conducted?
A. I must state in advance that the words "food experiments" did not have the same unfortunate meaning at that time as it has today, when today it is put on the same sooting with the word "experiment", especially since now we have uncovered the occurrences which are in connection with that. At the time there was a lot of food tested by the troops and also by us in the office. In order to give you an example, all possible experiments or tests were made; for example,we tried to produce sausage from fish or from the meat of shells also by adding these drugs Biosyn and Mycel and yeast. We tried to use artificial chocolate, synthetic fats, raisins which had been prepared from some wild berries; we even tried, to prepare vegetables from seaweed and so on.