We could count on the fact that in two or three weeks at the latest everything would be completed.
Q. Whom did you consider responsible for these conditions which you saw there? Did you give any thought to that matter?
A. Of course, I immediately thought over that question at the time. I was not sent there as an investigating official, but I was to help there. Of course, it was natural that I was looking for the guilty person there. Without any doubt it was a result of the pressure which was exerted in higher circles or agencies and the preparations had not been met carefully enough. Normally it was arranged so that first the barracks were established for the workers, enabling them to be billeted there, and then the other work would be started.
But in this case the second phase had been started before the first phase was completed. In addition to this, several other unfavorable factors were responsible. As I have already described, delay was caused through air attacks. Then the sudden cold which also impaired the work. There was also a certain clumsiness on the part of the camp administration which absolutely did not know what to do in this situation. However, I did not have the impression that this was done absolutely arbitrarily or that the camp administration was particularly uninterested. I did have another impression which surprised me at the time and which caused my having misgivings. That was that my appearance there and my desire for assistance made a bad impression on these people. These people seemed to be annoyed that I was there at all. That was with the exception of Kammler, who had taken me there.
Q. What steps did you take in detail?
A. First of all at noon of the following day Kammler returned with me to Berlin. He urged for the utmost speed. His main worry was that mass epidemics might take place there. That is to say, he was afraid of plagues. From Dora I had immediately given instructions by telephone to the various depots, telling them to turn over food from our stocks. In this case, however, other difficulties arose; and there was another misfortune there.
At that particular time there was ice on all the roads so that first of all the railway transports were hampered and now the truck transports on the highways also had a lot of difficulty in approaching their destination. After several days the additional food did arrive.
When I reached Berlin, I immediately contacted Office B II, that is, Lechler. I then asked him to give the clothing matter top priority. In the same way I contacted the agency of the Reich Physician SS. I drew the attention of these men to the conditions at Dora; and I urgently requested that a physician be assigned to that place and that medical personnel of the SS also be furnished. Finally I telephoned to the main medical depot at Berlin, asking them to put aside medicine and disinfection facilities for that camp. I believe that I also telephoned the Reich Ministry of Food on one of the following days; but today I cannot recall any longer just what resulted from these conferences. In this field I don't think that I was very successful. This I cannot recall anymore.
Q. When you informed these agencies and asked them for aid, did they offer resistance, or were these agencies ready to help you and were they prepared to take some steps?
A. It seems especially important to me that Lechler at the time was quite surprised and exclaimed that he did not know why he should take any steps. After all, he knew for certain that Burger, the Chief of Office D IV, had sufficient clothing at his disposal. Therefore, Burger only had to take these things out of a certain depot, and it could be furnished. In spite of this, I asked Lechler to intervene. Then on his own initiative he assisted in this action. I was also treated very well in this matter by the other agencies which I have previously named; and I also received the cooperation which I desired at all these agencies.
Q. Those were your steps in the other fields. However, what did you do yourself in the field where you were able to help, in the field of food?
A. Of course, I cannot tell today in detail just how much food I furnished at the time. I only know in approximation that a total of about twenty to thirty tons were furnished, that is to say, one to two wagon loads. For our situation at the time and the special condition there, that was quite a lot. Above all, we sent food which was high in calories--flour, peas, beans, canned meat, oils, fats, and also dehydrated fruits and rice. There is also the fact that we turned other post exchange items over to them as well. We supplied a large amount of rum, which usually was added to tea. We furnished cigarettes and toilet articles. All that will show that we were not only trying to give the inmates items of the utmost necessity but were really trying to make things easier for them. As far as possible we tried to give them a few little comforts.
Q. Was the food which you took away from your trop depots now to be the food of the inmates, or was it to be an addition to the food?
A. That was supposed to be an addition to their rations. They were to get this besides the usual food they received. It was our specific intention that these people be able to recover somewhat so that they would regain a better physical condition and be able to perform their work better.
Q. What happened now with regard to the other agencies with regard to the aid which these other agencies had promised to you? Were you able to observe whether the other agencies actually fulfilled their promises?
A. I know that for sure. I know that Amt B V furnished us with motor vehicles and fuel so that these things could be brought to the camp by truck convoys. Lechler also supported us and saw to it that the clothing was sent there. Shoes and the medical supplies were taken there as well by this same convoy.
It was an entire truck convoy, not merely a few trucks.
Q. Did you report to Pohl about your visit and about the measures which you had taken; and did you report to Gluecks?
A. Pohl had sent me there so I would gather information; and after I had taken these steps, I submitted a written report to Pohl on the following morning. I can still recall that Pohl at that time was very indignant about these conditions and that he used the expression, "That is terrible; that is unnerving." But Gluecks' attitude aroused my misgivings and surprised me. I did not know Gluecks personally at the time. During one of the next few days Gluecks called me by telephone. He seemed very indignant over the telephone. He reproached me and said that I had written my report too severely and had exaggerated the things. He gave me to understand, in other words, that I had only tried to make myself important and that things were not so bad after all. Above all he let me understand that if I ever interfered again in his business then I should at least contact him beforehand.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Then he made the statement that I could not judge the conditions in the concentration camp systems. He told me that they were different than in the Army. That was quite correct. I must admit that. I was very surprised at his charges. I could only answer that I had not had any reason to obtain his permission because after all, I had received this assignment from Pohl. On the other hand, I did not think too much about Gluecks' attitude because of course I had to conclude from his attitude that Pohl had reproached him about the matter. And after all, generals are also very touchy when someone reproaches them. That is quite understandable from the human point of view. Today, however, Gluecks' attitude shows to me that his attempt to keep unauthorized persons away from these places was for a good reason. Even if they came there to help. I did not realize to what extent this had been going on.
Q The special order which you received to examine the conditions in the Camp Dora was finished after you completed your reliefwork, or were you to continue making observations and taking care of that matter?
A No. My assignment was completed. However, after approximately three or four weeks, I was called by the newly-appointed administrative officer of Dora and he requested once more, if possible, to send additional food. However, he told me that the success would last for a longer period of time. I complied with this request, I sent as much food as I had sent the first time. Only on the second occasion, I did not add any PX items. However, I was convinced, at the time, that I had done my best. Above all, I had taken care of all angles from the human point of view. I am still convinced of that today.
Q In the following year, did you deal once more with this matter or with a similar special assignment?
AAt the same period of time, Kammler requested that I do something for another plant if this were possible. I do not know where this plant was located. I can only conclude today from the files Court No. II, Case No. 4.that this was Gusen near Linz.
At the time, he did not inform me of any details. He only told me quite generally, that some assistance vias always needed there. I had ordered the food depot at Linz to furnish some items, but I did not find out anything about any other details. Otherwise, on such occasions, I had nothing further to do with turning over additional food.
Q Witness, according to the course of the trial, it could be said that the difficulties in all the concentration camps for the most part began early in 1944. The Witness Kahr stated that early in 1944, big difficulties arose at Camp Dora. Did the Witness Kahr or any other person turn to you once more in 1944 for assistance or did anybody tell you about conditions at that time? Did you hear anything further?
A No. The matter was as I have stated before. Afterwards I received other assignments and I did not receive any other requests from any other agencies. I did not receive them from Kammler, Gluecks or any other administrative officer. In one of the affidavits, I think it is the one by Barnewald, it has been alleged that only through Dr. Kahr, was I sent there. However, that is incorrect, due to the time factor alone. I had only seen Dr. Kahr in the witness stand. That is the first time I saw him. Kahr states now that only in January 1944, was he transferred to Dora as a physician. I had been there already early in November 1943. Perhaps Kahr thought that is the way it was. However, his reports never reached me. Kahr also states that he only corresponded with Dr. Lolling. Gluecks can be considered as being responsible as they failed to notify us. On the one hand that is correct, because we were not competent. But they should have asked us once more whether we would be able to help them. However, I must state explicitely that this was not done. The difficulties really made their appearance from January to March 1944. As I have seen now, from the files, the main reason for that was that the plant now, all of a sudden, had been increased from 3000 inmates to 10,000 inmates. Of course no facilities had been prepared there for such a number of Court No. II, Case No. 4.workers.
Of course, this had to cause a crushing catastrophe. I admit that.
Q However, you did not find out anything at the time?
A I did not hear about it at the time, but the camp administration had to deal with that matter.
Q Witness, as far as your troop supplies or food are concerned, could you offer to furnish so much food for these purposes? You stated here that you were tied to the regulations of the Army Supply Office. Could you give such supplies without permission from a higher agency, or could you do it on your own initiative?
A No. I was not allowed to do that as far as the regulations were concerned because this stock was destined for the troops. However, of course, I always had some small stock, some surplus stock at my disposal. That is to say, I was given a round number. These things were not figured out exactly to the very gram. This surplus stock was also to be reserved for the troops, so that whenever the troop strength was increased, I would not have to make a new request all the time to increase the contingent. I helped the Camp Dora at the time from this reserve stock.
I did not have to give an exact account of this stock to the Army Supply Office. Of course, I did not tell them about the matter at the time. Otherwise, of course, I would not have been able to do that in accordance with prevailing regulations, at least not regularly.
Q Why could you not have done it regularly?
A Because the Army Administrative Office would have objected and it would have been pointed out to me, politely but firmly, that the Civilian Food Sector was responsible for the food for the inmates. Probably, I would have been told to turn to the Reich Food Ministry.
Q In this case, could you have refused to help?
A Yes. I believe if I had been a bureaucrat, and if I wanted to adhere very closely to my regulations, then, of course, people would have been able to say that I was a bureaucrat. Nobody could have re Court No. II, Case No. 4.proached me directly.
It was up to me and my position whether I wanted to do it or not. However, we also helped in other cases. I can recall, for example, when the Sector of Berlin-Steglitz was attacked so heavily at the time, and so much of it was destroyed, we helped out the civilian population for weeks.
Q Witness, what would have been the normal channel in this case for Dora?
A The normal channel would have been that I would have requested Burger to negotiate with the Reich Food Ministry or any Food Office which was competent. I could have carried out these negotiations myself, as an exception. However, since the authorities were rather clumsy, this would have taken up a lot of time. And I have already stated, I believe, that I did call the Reich Food Ministry at the time. However, they insisted on their regulations and they did not cooperate very much. I believe, today, that the channel which I chose was the quickest and the most favorable one.
Q Witness, if you saw all these things, and if you intervened, did you not have to draw the conclusion from your impressions, that quite generally speaking, human lives did not have very much value in the concentration camps. They were being treated very carelessly. There was a lot of indifference with regard to the welfare of the inmates?
A I must say that I had the impression to the contrary, after all the statements of any indignation made by Pohl or Kammler and also by the immediate help, which I found everywhere, e.g.V2 or the medical office. As an outsider, though, I could only draw the conclusion that this whole thing was an exceptional case even if it were to be regretted very much. After all, we were living through a war where all kinds of difficulties could arise. The supply difficulties which we faced here, unfortunately, also existed occasionally with the troops. I even know of cases where units had even more supply difficulties than Camp Dora which difficulties could have been disastrous.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
I think, then, I was justified in believing that this was an exceptional case rather than a case of indifference.
Q. Then Tschenfscher, did you ever hear anything about the fact that medical experiments were carried out on involuntary experimental subjects? in the concentration camps: Did you ever hear that people were killed in this way or that they were subjected to painful experiments?
A. No. Until the time when I became a prisoner I did not hear a word about all these things. May I also point out that at the time when the experiments were carried out I was in combat, so that I was unable to make any direct observations: that is to say, I was unable to see anything, not even accidently.
Q. Now it has been stated in letters that food experiments were to be carried out and that they were to be carried out on concentration camp inmates. Now, food was one of the tasks in your field. Did you ever hear of any human experiments in that field?
A. No. I never heard anything of such food experiments. Above all, I did not hear that such experiments were fatal or that they had any harmful effects. However, when I was in my office for a short period of time I heard something about the testing of a drug which was called Biosyn-Mycel.
Q. What do you know about that? By whom and why were these experiments conducted?
A. I must state in advance that the words "food experiments" did not have the same unfortunate meaning at that time as it has today, when today it is put on the same sooting with the word "experiment", especially since now we have uncovered the occurrences which are in connection with that. At the time there was a lot of food tested by the troops and also by us in the office. In order to give you an example, all possible experiments or tests were made; for example,we tried to produce sausage from fish or from the meat of shells also by adding these drugs Biosyn and Mycel and yeast. We tried to use artificial chocolate, synthetic fats, raisins which had been prepared from some wild berries; we even tried, to prepare vegetables from seaweed and so on.
It was not always very pleasant for us to have to taste these foods. However, it was necessary, from the point of view of science. Therefore I was not surprised about the experiments with Biosyn-Mycel; above all, we always tried out these things ourselves or we had to try them out ourselves. In this connection I recall that a very small file was handed to me- I do not know on what occasion this was - and in this file I saw that these Biosyn-Mycel experiments had been carried out on inmates of concentration camps. However, when I read this, these experiments had already been concluded. In this connection I cannot recall that the name of Professor Schenk had been mentioned. The purpose of these tests probably was just like in all normal food experiments - to use all opportunities in order to discover new sources of food. We were forced to do this by the difficult food situation which prevailed in Germany. I have only referred to this incident now when I saw in the files of the trial that this matter has been referred to there, at the time I was not further interested in the development of this product and I did not speak with Professor Schenk about it. It was not a particularly outstanding novelty as similar drugs were issued at that time at all possible places, even the troops, May I mention the so-called "Phrix's Yeast" in that connection. Some weeks ago I saw in a journal here in the prison, an announcement where this drug Biosyn-Mycel was mentioned. The same name was not used by from the name of the author I could conclude that the same thing was being referred to here.
Q. Was that the same incident as the testing of a Biosyn-Vegetabil Sausage?
A. I cannot give you an exact answer to that question any more and above all I cannot say where this drug was given in the shape of sausage. However, I assume that the file I saw at the time made reference to this incident. This drug was called Biosyn-Mycel; that is a composition of biological synthetics. Antizil is the word for mushrooms and it was formed by certain substances of egg yolk; it was a substance which contained albumen from about 40% to 50%. That is about all the knowledge I have about that.
Q. At the time wasn't it mentioned that fatalities or physical damage had been caused?
A. No, I did not find out anything which could have pointed to the fact that some fatalities had taken place. I have heard here for the first time of such alleged happenings. However, up to now no proof has been submitted with regards to that charge. There was no sign to indicate that some fatalities actually did occur. Even today I cannot imagine that this drug should have been harmful or fatal in any way. I cannot imagine that it should have had any harmful results. I know to tho contrary, from this file, that it has contained diagnoses of physicians who were very satisfied and even enthusiastic about this product. One even went on to state that the finger nails and the hair of the experimental subjects had grown very quickly; of course all this did not give us any reason to suspect any harmful effects or fatalities, The letter of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl to Himmler of 9 September 1942...
Q. May I interrupt you. This is a document from Volume 8. It is NO-003, Prosecution Exhibit No. 260; it is on page 10 of the English text and on page 15 of the German test. Did you know that letter at the time?
A. No. I did not know this letter according to its contents nor did I know of the subject with which it dealt. It was written a year before I started in my position but of course I may have heard something about the idea which was stated there. However, this was not the case.
Q. Therefore you did not know anything about the letter which was written a year before you took over your position? You did not see it later on?
A. No.
Q. Was Professor Schenk, who has been mentioned here, subordi nated to you?
Could you exercise any supervision over him?
A. Professor Schenk was directly subordinated to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. That is already shown by this document, and that question has already been clarified here by other witnesses. Furthermore, Professor Schenk could report directly to the Reichsfuehrer; I heard that one time through a conversation; he therefore worked completely independently. However, I admit that we had common interest in the field of troop supply and that, therefore, I had frequent contacts with Schenk.
Q. Did Schenk have ay other tasks? What were the tasks of *** Schenk which brought him into contact with you?
A. These tasks extended to new methods of conserving food. For example, we worked together on the production of new food which could be dropped to troops which were surrounded from the air by airplanes. In this way we could supply then with food; this was concentrated food of the Waffen-SS. Then we had to pack that food--we had to conserve it-and we had to deal with such questions for the most part. However, I did not make any suggestions to that effect and I did not order it. Schenk developed this procedure on his own initiative and as soon as he would developed any tangible results he would consult me. I then gave my expert opinion on then. I was not the only one to give my opinion for Gruppenfuehrer Loerner and Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl would also give their opinions. However, all these were completely normal tests in the field of troop supply. I, myself, never carried out any experiments in that field and I did not event make any harmless experiments.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until 1:45.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours).
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 23 June 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Witness, to come back to the position of the food inspector; Brof. Schenk the document mentioned before to us the letter from Pohl to Himmler of 9/9/1942, showed very clearly that everybody was quite prepared to ruthlessly endanger the health of all the inmates, if it was possible to carry out experiments on them with a promise of results. While there is mention made expressly of food experiments in documents of this trial and the Doctors' trial, I had not found any definite indication about these food experiments with the exception of a document, which is in Document Book 21, on page 30, which is an affidavit by one Freidrich Endres. He, in a very general manner, referred to experiments made by Professor Schenk, of food experiments, and he also referred to fatalities.
THE PRESIDENT: Whose affidavit is this, please?
DR. PRIBILLA: It is by Freidrich Endres.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, Endres.
DR. PRIBILLA: It is Document NO-2368, Exhibit 516.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Now the thing to conclude from that would be who was the official responsible for food experiments, if anything was done in that field did it pass within your field of task? On that basis I would like you to tell us very clearly who Professor Schenk was, and what his relationship was between himself and the organization of the WVHA, and your office?
AAt the beginning of the war in 1940 I saw Professor Schenk and met him actually at that time when the first campaign in the west had started. He was attached to our division for reasons of which I did not know at the time, or what his special field of task was. I merely referred to him as a troop doctor. Only later on in the was I became better acquainted with him, he had left when the WVHA sent him in the field which dealt with problems in the field of troop feeding.
These problems which he dealt with were entirely of Schenk's ideas, and, furthermore, they were concerned namely with how food could be prepared in the most useable manner, and how the soldier could be fed, therefore, with the proper amount of calories which were discussed and as food inspector I came across him only when in the end of 1943 I went to the WVHA. There, his position was entirely definite. He was subordinate, as I said before, and other people have had him immediately under Pohl, and so I don't wish to say anything unpleasant, or what the things were. He was also Himmler's favorite, as I saw it, because Himmler was interested in Schenk's idea of a reform in the food field, and, of course, it is a fact that Himmler whenever he was interested in an idea, in a possibility concerned, had to pass his own ideas at any costs to tho world, whether or not it would go too far. To give an example, it may be very funny, but this night be quite sufficient that Schenk had made a large number of official trips, and I heard in conversations, that on Himmler's behalf he spent several weeks or months in Russia with the troops at the front in order to continue this food research there, and, again from conversations I know he lead a private nursing home, or hospital in Schwabing, near Munich, where he was. I never tallied to him about it, but I assume that it was possible a hospital where they worked on food reform, such as the Weisse Hirsch in Dresden, a home in Germany which was known at that time New did he have any reason to tell me what ho had done on his official trips, as somoy times he was quiet about them, and sometimes he had just vanished after having said goodbye, and again, sometimes I did not know that he gone away anymore.
Q Witness, I would like to hear more complete things. Was the position that you were in a position to give orders and to instruct Professor Schenk? Was the position that he worked in, was that under your control and supervision, you as a food officer for the troops to be working in a position to tell Schenk in what direction to work to find out things, or to invent something now; to test something; or did Schenk have a position which went beyond your competency; did he work for other agencies?
What was his position within the framework?
A: As I said before, it was not the case that I gave Schenk orders or instructions, but that Schenk on his own initiative would investigate certain problems in the food field, as he was a research worker, nor can I say that orders or suggestions were his own, in any case, or whether he received them from a third party, let's say, Himmler, or the Reich Research Council, which would have been entirely possible. So far as I was concerned Schenk only invited me to inspect something he had actually completed, and that was exclusively on a factor of food supply for the troops, and it became never clear on those occasions that he had made experiments on inmates. As I said before, I learned of that particular document which referred to food experiments in a concentration camp, but in that document the name Schenk did not appear, so far as I can recall at the time. It was purely a report by a doctor who was giving a very favorable recommendation on that product. Nothing was said in the document that people had died, or at least received damage to their health. As far as Schenk's field was concerned he did not confine himself only to the Waffen-SS and the Police, because his official designation was Food Inspector of the Waffen SS and Police, who in the least year of the war, roughly from the middle of 1944 onwards was also assigned to the duty of Food Inspector with the OKH. Schenk, therefore, was a man who was such a worker and scientist who had a reputation and name in the last sense of the word, as I was able to find out in that field, and he did not work under me, nor was he under my direction; by which statement I don't wish to be particularly smaller than I actually was, but I was certainly not a man who was above Schenk.
Q Now, if you had to give an organizational chart of this, where would Schenk have to be put according to his actual tasks? Can you put him anywhere on this chart here? (Indicating)
A Not in the end actually. He was then the food inspector of the whole of the army. Therefore he would have been part of the Army Administrative Office; but within the WVHA, although he had a position within Office Group B in order to allocate him somewhere in an office and to be able to pay him--he must have his desk somewhere and his telephone and so forth--but from the point of view of his actual tasks and the orders he would receive, he was under Himmler and Pohl directly.
Q Therefore, he had every freedom of movement?
A Yes, he could and that becomes quite clear from Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl's letter which says that Schenk is not tied to any office. Although I did not know that letter at the time, I can confirm that his position was regarded as that, and I did so too.
Q Now, when you joined the WVHA in 1943 Schenk and his influence and position already existed, and you took no influence on them?
A No.
Q Would you not have been in a position to give suggestions and orders for such food experiments? You were concerned with the feeding of the troops. Were you not therefore a man who gave orders to Schenk to do this, that or the other?
A I have described my task before. My duties were to keep food ready which could be used immediately. Whenever new measures were taken, such as synthetic food, Schenk would report to me. I was not the first one to whom he showed this, but sometime or other I was taken into his confidence in order to give my opinion on what I, who had had practical experience, thought of this, whether according to my experience it was suitable for the troops, whether the packing was sufficient, whether it would suffer in transport, whether the climate would be able to damage it all, and so forth. That was the limit usually of our conversation.
As far as I can remember, we never made such experiments with the troops, not even when valuable food items were concerned. I recall nothing of that sort from my time of my service in the war.
Q To sum up, I might say that Schenk had a position which went far beyond the limits of your office. He was Himmler's favorite. He finally became food inspector also for the OKH. He had every freedom of movement and, so to speak, in higher spheres than those of your office. Now, when Schenk had any requests to make or suggestions to offer, he would discuss them with you as an expert for the SS food supplies, as he would other agencies of the army., the Luftwaffe, and so forth; is that correct?
A Yes. That I can confirm fully. There was also the fact that as a prominent scientist, Schenk had every self-confidence. Our relations were quite good, but he certainly would not have stood for any orders coming from me. In that respect, he would have regarded me as a layman and would have declined to avail himself of my suggestions.
Q During your service, did you hear anything beyond the things you told us this morning about food experiments with poisonous food?
A No. I said before that I did not even know anything about the idea at the back of this letter. Under "poisonous foods" I can not visualize anything. Actually, that is a contradiction in itself. Food can do damage to you. Game or fish might result in food poisoning, and equally a man might fall ill because he has eaten unsuitable food or often not enough food. Food scientists maintain and attempt to prove that people who always eat canned food suddenly fall ill with certain symptoms, and scurvy is one of the best known illnesses of that description, but that is all I can visualize under that. Poisonous mushrooms or berries are well known in their effects. Therefore, no reasonable man would call them food. Anything else which goes beyond this, I can regard only as a attempt to poison somebody, which no longer has anything to do with food experiments.
All that I knew about these things was just the things which would turn up in my daily routine work because, after all, I was a layman in these fields. I think the whole thing has been somewhat exaggerated also by Schenk, and perhaps he was merely trying to show off. I don't think anything really evil was at the back of this.
Q But in this letter by Pohl to which we have referred before in Document Book 8, it says fairly clearly, does it not, that an intention exists possibly to use inmates for disadvantageous experiments, which surely is an intention which must be taken seriously. How can you say now that you think much of this was simply based on showing off?
A Well, one must know how these people were used to expressing themselves. These reformists called things poisonous or poisoning which to a normal person would seem completely poisonous. For instance, in the minds of these reform fanatics, as I might call them, a cup of strong coffee or too much meat represents poison, or canned food, as I have said before, and therefore, I regard this as a piece of showing off to say in this letter that there is a house mentioned which is called "the house of bad food" which did not exist. That was simply a whim of Himmler, and nothing further was done. We smiled perhaps and shook our heads, had took knowledge of it, but that was as far as it went.
Q Was that your impression also, of Prof. Schenk and the orders he received from Himmler and which he discussed with other agencies?
A Yes, quite. I said before what I observed in these things and what I took part in where entirely normal, common cooking tests and cooking experiments, such as any housewife does at times. I can not imagine even today that people were killed on these occasions or suffered any damage. I would have to know more about this first.
Q Witness, did you hear anything about the so-called euthenasia program at any time?
THE PRESIDENT: Before you leave the food experiments, what was the exhibit in which the word "poisonous food" was used?
