The concentration camps, according to the law, according to the Gestapo law of 1936, undoubtedly lie in the administration of the Gestapo, because in that particular law it says clearly the state concentration camps will be administered by the Gestapo or Secret State Police. In other words, at the time the necessity would have existed to place Eicke, SS camp commandant, under the orders of Heydrich, who was in charge of the Gestapo, Eicke, however, was the man who by far had the longer time in service and was older than Heydrich. Heyrich was the more intelligent, more ambitious man, and as far as I know their relationship, and as far as I could observe it in the course of the years, there were quite a few tensions, and I am convinced that Eicke wouldn't have served under Heydrich's orders. That seems to have been the reason for Himmler to place the concentration camps, and later on the inspectorate of the concentration camps, outside the jurisdiction of the Gestapo or the RSHA, respectively, as an independent organization. I cannot think of any other reasons.
Q. What other prisoners were in the concentration camps, I mean, apart from the political prisoners?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A In the course of the years many groups of people could be encountered in the concentration camps: asocial elements, conscientious objectors, Jehovah's Witnesses, professional criminals, homosexuals, and other groups.
Q Who was in charge of putting these people into concentration camps--responsible for it, rather?
AAll the persons who were sent to the concentration camps were sent every time by the Gestapo.
Q Then the Reichs Criminal Police Office did not have anything to do with it?
A I don't know that.
Q How did the RSHA and particularly the Gestapo--in other words, office IV RSHA--take care of their State police affairs in the concentration camps? How did it deal with those matters?
A In every concentration camp, as an outside office of the RSHA, there was the so-called Department VI. Through that office the RSHA took care of their matters in concentration camps.
Q The Department VI, in other words, was the long arm of the Gestapo or of the RSHA in the camps. Is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q What, in detail, were its matters that the political department dealt with in the concentration camps?
A The political department was in charge of all the matters of inmates as far as they were of a police nature. For instance, interrogations, all the files of the inmates, transfers, and all other things that had to be taken care of through the police matters. The tasks were carried out by officials, by criminal officials, who had been transferred to the camps by the Reichs Criminal Office. These officials, during their activity in the camps, also were under the supervision of the RSHA. They were under the RSHA economically and in disciplinary matters.
Q The camp administration, with reference to what you just Court No. II, Case No. 4.said---what were their tasks?
A The camp administration had to take care of economy and also the guarding of the concentration camp people. By "economy" I mean the billeting, feeding and clothing of the inmates, as well as of the guards.
Q Is it correct, therefore, when I say that neither the inspector of the concentration camps nor the chief of the Gestapo, or the RSHA respectively, could be Chief of the Concentration camps because one superseded the others' field of activities?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q In other words, who could be called the chief of the concentration camp?
A If there ever was such an official position--and if there had been such an official position--then Himmler himself would have been the only one who could have taken care of that, and he alone could have been Chief of Concentration camps.
Q What were the tasks of the camp commandant, in detail?
A The camp commandant had to take care of the guarding in the camp. Furthermore, with the help of his officials who assisted him, he was in charge of the feeding, clothing, and billeting of the guards and inmates. Furthermore, he was responsible for the medical care. For all those tasks he had collaborators; he had an administrative leader and also the necessary medical equipment, as well as the doctors.
Q What were the groups of the SS that formed the guards? How were they organized; under whose supervision were they?
A The guarding of the concentration camps in the course of years varied. When I came in 1934, the situation was like this: Eicke recruited the guards himself. He took young people who hadn't been in the service yet, and older age groups who had already complied with their military service. The time of service, with reference to the guards in the concentration camps, was not computed with the service served in the army. Later on, from those guard groups which was not a Court No. II, Case No. 4.compact group, the Death Head Standarten developed.
With these Death Head Standarten the time of service was computed together with the army service. In other words, they were already soldiers. With reference to the entire organization, they were formed and trained and paid according to army regulations. When Eicke, at the beginning of the war formed the Death Head Division, he transferred the Death Head Standarten that already existed into that division. There remained only Sturmbanns, which then, later on, were kept as independent "Wath" groups. As a result, they were called according to the names of the camps, for instance, Wachsturmbann Dachau, or Mauthausen. The highest number of guards, I believe, was in 1944, approximately 35,000 men. Out of those 6,000 were SS members, and the remainder came from the Reichskriegerbund, or from "Volksdenkibe". The Army and the Luftwaffe also provided guards. And that made the situation as it prevailed in the second half of 1944, approximately.
Q With reference to the camp commandant, the protective custody order leader, and the leader of the Guard Sturmbann-they were under the supervision of the camp commandant?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q What do you understand by "protective custody camp" as opposed to the regular concentration camp?
A The protective custody camp was that part of the concentration camp in which the inmates were billeted.
Q Where was the entire administration of the concentration camp lodged, and where were the administrative and supervisory offices of the Sturmbann, of the Guard Sturmbann?
A The administration of the concentration camps--or, rather, the Kommandantur was lodged outside of the protective custody camp. However, still within the area of the concentration camp. As far as the Guard Sturmbann was concerned, they were not always lodged within the area of the concentration camp. In other words, not within the barbed wire fences of the concentration camp. There were also camps in Court No. II, Case No. 4.which the guard Sturmbann was outside of the actual concentration camp, however, immediately next to the concentration camp.
Q Where was the offices in charge of the camp administration, and where were their office?
A The superior offices of the administration was the administrative office, ("Verwaltungsamt"). Later on, the Amt D IV, for the inspector of the concentration camps.
Q How many camps existed until the beginning of the war?
A Until the outbreak of the war, there were six camps.
Q Did you inspect a concentration camp yourself before the outbreak of the war?
A Yes.
Q What were the inmates doing? And, with reference to those camps you saw, what did they occupy themselves with?
A The inmates were employed in the workshops of the camp and also in all other installations with reference to the supplying of a camp, and to keep good order. Part of the administration of the camp, in other words, kitchen, laundry, libraries, dispensary and also the workshops, which dealt with the maintenance of the camps: carpentry shops, electrical shops,locksmiths workshops, and, later on, bakery and butchery. Furthermore, the inmates were occupied with taking care of the various maintenance jobs which occurred in the camp every day.
Q Who was in charge of these workshops where these inmates were employed, before the outbreak of the war?
A These workshops and all the workshops I mentioned, were under the supervision of the camp commandant until I believe 1938.
Q What were the reasons for the change of these workshops into economic enterprises which were not dealt with according to commercial principles, and who was responsible for that change? Which one was the first, original change?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A The number of concentration camp inmates increased in the course of the years. Therefore, these work shops increased also, so that quite soon they produced more than the camp needed. Here came the first appearances of corruption. That was the reason why Himmler ordered -- it was approximately in 1938 -- that these workshops be placed under the supervision of the WVHA. The first enterprises were as Economic Enterprises of the SS -- and at first only in Dachau -transferred to the WVHA.
Q With reference to this change of these concentration camp work shops into commercial enterprises, was that agreed to by Eicke, or, what was his attitude in the whole matter?
A Eicke fought against this transfer to the WVHA of the work shops, because thus he lost control over these work shops and also the right of disposal of the entire production and the results of these enterprises. In other words, he fought against it quite seriously.
Q When were all these matters taken care of later on?
A This resistance of Eicke was eliminated by itself when he was relieved in 1939 or 1940 and went to the front with the Death Head Division. However, the resistance prevailed secretly until the end of the war within the ranks of the old camp commandants. I could show that by the fact that camp commandants tried to form black work shops, apart from those that were already in the camp, in other words, such work shops which would not be under the control of the WVHA.
Q With reference to those work shops in Dachau, they were under the WVHA. That was the first change of its kind, wasn't it? And I ask you when did that occur?
A That occurred approximately in 1938.
Q The German Ausrvestungswerke, was that part of the group that was incorporated in the holding outfit at the outbreak of the war? When was it that the DWB was created?
A The development was somewhat different. The nucleus of all economic enterprises of the SS was in Dachau, which were developed out Court No. II, Case No. 4.of the work shops of the camp; these economic enterprises of the SS in Dachau in 1938 were surrendered to the WVHA.
The following year, that is 1939, these economic enterprises were changed and thus developed the Deutsche Ausrvestungswerke, DAW. These DAW's in the course of time installed more work shops and enterprises in the remaining concentration camps. At Buchenwald, for instance, at Sachsenhausen, and also in Neuengamme later on, the DAW dealt first of all with work shops that worked with timber. In other words, they were the first of its kind. Later on, or rather, already in 1937, independently from this entire development the DEST was developed, that was the first enterprise in Oranienburg. These two enterprises were the first two. They were formed together in the DAW, or, rather, DWB, as a holding company which was created in 1940.
Q What other enterprises were created in connection with the concentration camps?
A In connection with the concentration camps, apart from those two enterprises mentioned, no other enterprises were created or the other enterprises had no immediate contact with the concentration camp, whereas the DAW of the DEST had direct connection with the concentration camp.
Q After the outbreak of the war, where was the largest part of the concentration camp inmates transferred to, after the outbreak of the war, as I said before.
AAfter the outbreak of the war, no transfer of concentration camp inmates to the outside took place. The inmates even during the first years of the war were mostly used in the concentration camps themselves. If and to what extent inmates were also transferred to work shops outside of the concentration camps during the first years of the war, I do not know from my own knowledge, because at that time I had nothing whatsoever to do with labor assignment.
Q The first inspector of the concentration camps, Eicke, then, joined the Army from 1939 to 1940 -- went to the front and was killed.
**essor as Commandant of the Concentration camps?
AAfter Eicke had left, Obergruppenfuehrer Heissmeier, as Inspector General of the concentration camps and SS Death Head Groups took care of these camps. However, I do not know for how long. Then the concentration camps were incorporated into the Fuehrungshauptamt. Under these two authorities, Gluecks, as inspector of the concentration camps then carried out his activity.
Q Could you give us a short description of the personality of SS Brigadefuehrer Gluecks?
A Gluecks was approximately 50 or so. He was an easy-going civil servant. He was sick, and he took care of most of his official matters from his office. He didn't work over average. I only knew him from 1942 on, when I was charged with the labor assignment, and I also dealt with matters outside of Oranienburg, in other words, to control the camp, and he also did so. However, I an under the impression that prior to that time, he did not quite deal with these matters as he should have.
Q What did you do yourself until the spring of 1942, and what did you have to do with concentration camps, and what exactly was your task as Chief of the WVHA in connection with these concentration camps?
AAfter taking the economic enterprises in 1938 or 1939 I dealt with these work shops, or, concentration camps; as chief of the WVHA I had not more to do with the concentration camps as such, than with all the other units of the Waffen-SS. Most of the economic matters met in our organization. There were no other activities apart from those mentioned.
Q What other agencies of the Reich party, etc., had functions in connection with these concentration camps?
A The Reich Ministry of the Interior is the first one I should mention here. The Reich Ministry of the Interior after 1941 had to be consulted first in all construction matters, because these construction matters up to that year were under the Reich Construction Court No. II, Case No. 4.within the Reich Ministry of the Interior.
Only after Kammler joined the WVHA, the authority was issued to him to also deal with construction matters independently, and it was transferred from the Reich Ministry of the Interior to the WVHA. One I have not mentioned at this point is the Reichrechnungshof, who up to a certain time was in charge of auditing all accounts, also those of the concentration camps.
Q In March 1942, the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler told you that he had made up his mind to put both Brigadefuehrer Gluecks and the Inspector of the concentration camps under your orders. What were the reasons that Himmler gave you for his decision.
A I was called up to Himmler's place. At that time he told me approximately the following. In the Fuehrer's headquarters, a meeting took place which dealt with the most important problem of the time, namely, with the labor question in the armament industry. That question at the time, or, rather, at that moment of the war, had reached its peak, had become the most important, he said, and a man was put in charge of that particular thing who had particular authority by the Reich for all the enterprises he was to take care of in this matter. Gauleiter Sauckel was being chosen for that position. He was to become the plenipotentiary general for labor assignment. During that meeting, they also discussed a question that all concentration camp inmates be used in the assignment to various tasks for that purpose. Thus there would be for the concentration camps, a new and particularly important task. He, Himmler, was not under the impression that Gluecks could cope with the task, and, furthermore, it was primarily an economical measure. He had no one else for that task than myself, as I was his economic expert, and, therefore, he made the decision to assign me to a task and to incorporate the concentration camps into the WVHA so that Gluecks could be under my supervision.
Q What did you answer Himmler at the time?
A With reference to this new change I was surprised and perturbed because the WVHA was one of the biggest main offices of the Reichsfuehrer SS. I had to cope with such a great field of tasks that it took all my energy. I drew Himmler's attention to that fact in particular, and I told him that up to that date the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was being taken care of by two high leaders who had no other task and that they could therefore put all their energy into the administration of these concentration camps, and for that reason it would be impossible to assign me to such a task, I who was already in charge of a main office, so that I would receive an additional task on top of all the others.
Apart from that, I thought it very difficult, if not impossible, to set up an organization which was built up in a police and military manner and that was to be taken care of by an administrative central office. I therefore proposed to him that he transfer the Inspectorate of the concentration camps where it belonged logically, to the RSHA. However, he did, not follow my suggestion because he saw the preeminent economic importance of these camps.
Finally he did comply with my wish to the effect that he thought I should only take care of the labor assignments and that at least in that field of tasks, in the interests of the entire armament, I should see to it that there would be no disorder. He wanted to, and he promised me, that at the latest, at the end of the war, he would find a final solution, in other words, that he would transfer the Inspector of the concentration camps to the RSHA.
In spite of my objections to that, I could not argue with him, because he had recognized the importance of the whole task, and I therefore agreed to take over that task.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you have us the witness give us the date when Himmler put the concentration camp inspectorate under his charge? It was in 1942?
Q Witness, will you tell the Tribunal now, when, according to your recollection that discussion took place during which Himmler told you what you have just referred to?
A That discussion took place approximately on the second or third of March 1942.
Q With reference to the Inspectorate of concentration camps, that was in connection with the planned assignment of labor and was only to be used for the duration of the war; is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q The incorporation of the Inspectorate of the concentration camps in to the WVHA, according to the documents of the Prosecution, by an order of the Reichsfuehrer SS of 3 March 1942, in which order it is stated as the reason for the incorporation of the inspectorate the organizational care and administrative care of the labor assign ments. I shall ask you now when the incorporation made itself felt and what in the WVHA was.
A On the basis of that order of 2 or 3 March 1942, on 23 or 24 April 1942 I informed the camp commandants, together with the workshop managers of the enterprises, by calling them to Berlin. I informed them of Himmler's order, and I made additional statements.
In those statements I told the camp commandants and workshop managers of how important this task was with respect to the armament and therefore with respect to supplies for the front line. I told them that task could only be taken care of if the camp commandants and workshop managers would cooperate closely and well, without any friction. That order was then transmitted in writing and, effective 1 May 1942, it was put into effect.
Q During the meeting which you mentioned before with Himmler, you pointed out that there was no possibility of taking care of a military organization, so to say, through an administrative main office. Was that idea of yours confirmed in the course of time?
A Himmler himself saw that later on because when in the autumn of 1944 the first camp, Stutthof, had to be evacuated, the difficulties which I had foreseen prevailed. From Berlin, from my administrative central office, I could not possibly confuse with my orders the militaryan matters in which this camp of Stutthof had been involved. Himmler himself then saw to it that on the basis of an order which was issued in March 1944, in the fall of 1944, the concentration camps in Case "A" -- that is the name of it, for the approach of the enemy -- would be transferred automatically within the field of the orders of the SS and Police Fuehrer in the competency of which this camp was. That is what happened actually. From that moment on, I as Chief of the WVHA had been eliminated.
Q The higher SS and police Leaders were part of the staff of the Reich Defense Council within which Gau they were located in; is that correct, and is it correct that the Reich Commissar was competent and responsible for various matters and in particular that he and the Higher SS and Police Leader had to decide if the concentration camp inmates of a camp were to be evacuated or if the entire concentration camp was to be surrendered to the advancing Allied Armies?
A I do not believe that the competency of the Reich Defense Commissariat could have gone so far. During the last half year or so, I was not busy. However, I am convinced that the orders, particularly the basic order that all the concentration camps and the work camps were not to stay on the spot but that they had to be evacuated further and further before the advancing armies had come from Himmler, if not from Hitler.
Shortly before I left Berlin in April 1945, Gluecks told me the following: That one of Hitler's adjutants had called him up at night and that Hitler wanted to know who had issued the order for the evacuation of Buchenwald. Gluecks thereupon answered that the order came from Himmler. The following morning Gluecks inquired from Hitler's adjutant how the matter had developed. Thereupon Hitler's adjutant was supposed to have told him that Hitler had been extremely angry about it and that he raged and said that the entire camp should have been liquidated and that if Himmler could not understand this business, then he should keep his fingers out of that pie. From the way it was told to me, I understood that even the Reich Defense Commissioners could not deal with the last measures but that the whole thing was really up to the highest personalities, at least in any case to Himmler. That is, the highest level.
Q Witness, could you tell this Tribunal at what time, according to your recollection, these camps were released from the competence of the WVHA and put in the charge of the Higher SS and Police Leaders; that is, for instance, in the case of Stutthof, near Danzig?
A. I can not recall the exact date. However, I can give you the approximate dates. In reference to Stutthof near Danzig, I am not so sure, it was in the October of 1944.
Q. Then how was it with reference to the case of Auschwitz and Gross-Rosen?
A. I believe that started around January 1945. It appears that the dates I am giving here are those of the evacuation. Of course, preparatory measures are part of that date which was carried out by the competent higher SS and Police Leaders that the camp at which -- or rather the date on which the camp was taken over by the higher SS and Police Leader, and the date at that time listed it about two or three months prior to the date I mentioned, because of the fact that there were quite a number of preparatory measures to take care of then, and Auschwitz and GrossRosen were evacuated in January 1945.
Q. There had been another camp that had early preparatory measures, wasn't there?
A. Yes, Natzweiler in the west was also pretty early. I believe it was in the Fall of 1944, but I can not recall the other dates.
Q. Your regular official position as Chief of the WVHA was to incorporate all concentration camp Inspectorates, that is, after 1 May 1942, then did you carry out official trips into these camps?
A. After the incorporation of the Inspectorate into the WVHA, I did not got to the camp more often than even before. My official position, and my official trips prior to that into the camps brought me to enterprises or meetings for gathering Information for decisions on questions which I could not very well see from Berlin, and after the incorporation I did not make more official TDY trips than I had made before.
Generally speaking, I went to the camps two or three times a year. I was to Dachau often, when I had made several official trips to Munich, at which time I had something to do with Party administration. I used the billets at Dachau, but I did not visit the camps, but I was billeted there. These other trips, as I said before, I had, as a matter of fact, just discussions on various matters which had something to do with the enterprises.
Q. Do you wish to say that you only carried out such trips as in your official capacity to talk as chief of Amt-W?
A. Yes, as Chief of WVHA, and so far as various other matters were concerned, also as chief of Amtsgruppe-W.
Q. Whose actual task was it to inspect the actual conditions of the concentration camps?
Q. That was, of course, Gluecks task as inspector. However, as I did mention before, I was under the impression that Glueck did not make much use of that particular task, because I actually had to force him to go on the trips. He had nothing else to do, but he did want to sit in Oranienberg with his collaborators, and he could have left anyway. However, he was just plain lazy.
Q. Is it correct that upon your request in reference to these official trips of Gluecks, they were assigned to Obergrappenfuehrer Schmidt?
A. Yes, I saw to it. Obergruppenfuehrer Schmidt was the name, and he was former chief of Personnel Main Office. However, he was asked to retire later on. I approached him, and asked him if he could possibly work again to help to support Gluecks in his inspection tours, because the number of working camps increased from month to month, and I found it necessary even before, because I had recognized Glueck's laziness, to assign an additional man as a successor to carry out these official trips, and from the Summer of 1943 onwards Obergruppenfuehrer Schmidt participated in these inspection tours.
In other words, they did not travel together; but separately, because of the burden to shoulder.
Did you ever take any measures with reference to these hard commandants of the camps, and the hard labor fuehrers in order to have them transferred?
A. In the execution of my task I dealt with all those particular points, where the labor assignment was concerned. I knew quite clearly that it could only be successful if the main leaders were convinced of the matter of importance in this task, and were willing to collaborate. I did not have that conviction in the case of some of the camp commandants. I felt that inspite of my warnings, they still could not get out of their own customs, which they had brought along from the Eickes school, and they did not want to change their habits, either. Many of these old camp commandants transferred, or removed slowly and slowly, or, rather relieved by putting better and a more regular force of men in there. I could see that such a measure might influence favorably the human side the whole camp administration. That was the reason why in the course of the years of 1943 and '44 I submitted to Himmler a request to make a transfer of came commandants, which was taken care of, and also made effective.
Q. I will ask you a question now in reference to the various individual camps. The camp of Dachau was constructed in 1933, and was increased more and more in the course of years. I shall ask you, what was the normal capacity in that camp, and how many inmates were in that camp during the time when the inmates were in there, and you can refer to your recollection?
A. I can only give you these figures to the best of my knowledge, anyway. In reference to Dachau I believe I can be able to say it was the normal height of 25,000 to the highest capacity which was approximately 60,000, and I also Know the number of labor camps, approximately. I say about twenty in Dachau.
Q. Then these work camps which you say numbered twenty are comprised within the 25,000 to 60,000 inmates which you just mentioned, is that correct?
A. Yes, the 60,000 inmates were distributed over the Stamm-camp, the concentration camp, the main camp, and also the twenty labor camps.
Q. When that concentration came of Sachsenhausen was created, according to your recollection, what was the normal capacity of the camp, or, rather, what was the maximum number of inmates in the camp. I would like for you to add at this point that there was a change in the name of the camp. That is correct, is it, that the name of the camp before was Oranienburg?
Q. The name had not been quite decided upon there. We had called Sachsenhausen that of Oranienburg, and Sachsenhausen was created in 1936. Normally speaking there were 20.000 inmates, and the maximum count was from 30,000 to 35.000 inmates with possibly fifteen labor camps.
MR. ROBBINS: May I ask for the record if Dr. Seidel will state the nature of the notes from which the witness is reading.
DR. SEIDEL: I asked the witness that he should tell the figures according to his recollection, and I believe that the witness is referring to a small slip of paper on which he has the approximate figures in order to refresh his memory.
However, I did not know that. I shall ask the witness himself to elucidate on the question.
THE WITNESS: I have my diary here. Of course, I have certain notes which I refer to for these names, which would be difficult to remember all the figures by heart. I started from those figures which I could remember. In other words, particularly in this case, the maximum number of inmates were 600,000 towards the end of 1944, according to the best of my knowledge and ability, which I distributed all over the camps. That is why I made notes. I did not find anything in the documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Answering your question, Mr. Robbins, the witness is testifying from a personal memorandum. All right, while I am at the microphone, we will take a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The court is in recess fifteen minutes.
(Recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, when was the Buchenwald concentration camp established, as far as you can recall? What was the normal capacity of this camp, and what was the maximum number of prisoners who were in the camp at any one time, as far as you remember?
A. Buchenwald was established in about 1937. Its normal capacity was 20,000 to 25,000 prisoners, and the maximum number of prisoners was approximately 50,000. I estimate that there were approximately 80 to 100 labor camps.
Q. When was the concentration camp Flossenburg established? What was its normal capacity? And what was the maximum number of prisoners at any one time in the camp?
A. Flossenburg was established in approximately 1938. Its normal capacity was 20,000 men. The highest number of prisoners was 30,000 to 40,000, and there were approximately 20 to 25 labor camps.
Q. The only women's concentration camp was the concentration camp Ravensbrueck. When was this women's concentration camp established? What was its normal capacity? And what was the highest number of prisoners at any one time in the camp, as far as you can remember?
A. Ravensbrueck was established in 1938. Its normal capacity was approximately 15,000. Its top strength was 25,000 to 30,000, and it had approximately 20 labor camps.
Q. One of the largest concentration camps was the Mauthausen concentration camp. When was this camp established, and how many prisoners were inside this camp?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Seidl, before you leave the women's concentration camp, I would like to inquire who supplied the women's concentration camps with their inmates. Where did they come from?
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, the Tribunal would like to know of what groups of persons the inmates of this women's concentration camp consisted.
Can you give us any statements on that subject - if they were mainly German women, or if they were mostly foreigners? I think that was the question, of the Tribunal.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes.
WITNESS: The transfer took place through the Gestapo. I myself could not see from the available documents where these people came from, what their nationality was, and why they had been sent to this concentration camp. I do not know any other details about that.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. How big was the Mauthausen concentration camp, witness?
A. The Mauthausen concentration camp was established in 1938 and, together with camp Gusen, which was in its immediate vicinity, had a normal capacity of approximately 40,000. And its top strength was approximately 70,000, and it had approximately 15 labor camps.
Q. The biggest concentration camp was Auschwitz, if I am informed correctly. Where was this camp located, when was it established, and how many prisoners were located inside the camp at the various times.
A. Auschwitz was established in 1941. It had a normal capacity of 80,000, and its top strength was 140,000.
THE PRESIDENT: Eighteen thousand?
DR. SEIDL: Eighty thousand.
WITNESS: Its top strength was 140,000, with approximately 60 labor camps.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. What were the conditions with regard to the Neuengamme concentration camp?
A. Neuengamme was also established in 1941. It had a normal capacity of 20,000 to 25,000 people. Its top strength was approximately 50,000, and it had approximately 60 labor camps.
Q. What were the conditions with regard to the Lublin camp?