Q Witness, will you tell the Tribunal now, when, according to your recollection that discussion took place during which Himmler told you what you have just referred to?
A That discussion took place approximately on the second or third of March 1942.
Q With reference to the Inspectorate of concentration camps, that was in connection with the planned assignment of labor and was only to be used for the duration of the war; is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q The incorporation of the Inspectorate of the concentration camps in to the WVHA, according to the documents of the Prosecution, by an order of the Reichsfuehrer SS of 3 March 1942, in which order it is stated as the reason for the incorporation of the inspectorate the organizational care and administrative care of the labor assign ments. I shall ask you now when the incorporation made itself felt and what in the WVHA was.
A On the basis of that order of 2 or 3 March 1942, on 23 or 24 April 1942 I informed the camp commandants, together with the workshop managers of the enterprises, by calling them to Berlin. I informed them of Himmler's order, and I made additional statements.
In those statements I told the camp commandants and workshop managers of how important this task was with respect to the armament and therefore with respect to supplies for the front line. I told them that task could only be taken care of if the camp commandants and workshop managers would cooperate closely and well, without any friction. That order was then transmitted in writing and, effective 1 May 1942, it was put into effect.
Q During the meeting which you mentioned before with Himmler, you pointed out that there was no possibility of taking care of a military organization, so to say, through an administrative main office. Was that idea of yours confirmed in the course of time?
A Himmler himself saw that later on because when in the autumn of 1944 the first camp, Stutthof, had to be evacuated, the difficulties which I had foreseen prevailed. From Berlin, from my administrative central office, I could not possibly confuse with my orders the militaryan matters in which this camp of Stutthof had been involved. Himmler himself then saw to it that on the basis of an order which was issued in March 1944, in the fall of 1944, the concentration camps in Case "A" -- that is the name of it, for the approach of the enemy -- would be transferred automatically within the field of the orders of the SS and Police Fuehrer in the competency of which this camp was. That is what happened actually. From that moment on, I as Chief of the WVHA had been eliminated.
Q The higher SS and police Leaders were part of the staff of the Reich Defense Council within which Gau they were located in; is that correct, and is it correct that the Reich Commissar was competent and responsible for various matters and in particular that he and the Higher SS and Police Leader had to decide if the concentration camp inmates of a camp were to be evacuated or if the entire concentration camp was to be surrendered to the advancing Allied Armies?
A I do not believe that the competency of the Reich Defense Commissariat could have gone so far. During the last half year or so, I was not busy. However, I am convinced that the orders, particularly the basic order that all the concentration camps and the work camps were not to stay on the spot but that they had to be evacuated further and further before the advancing armies had come from Himmler, if not from Hitler.
Shortly before I left Berlin in April 1945, Gluecks told me the following: That one of Hitler's adjutants had called him up at night and that Hitler wanted to know who had issued the order for the evacuation of Buchenwald. Gluecks thereupon answered that the order came from Himmler. The following morning Gluecks inquired from Hitler's adjutant how the matter had developed. Thereupon Hitler's adjutant was supposed to have told him that Hitler had been extremely angry about it and that he raged and said that the entire camp should have been liquidated and that if Himmler could not understand this business, then he should keep his fingers out of that pie. From the way it was told to me, I understood that even the Reich Defense Commissioners could not deal with the last measures but that the whole thing was really up to the highest personalities, at least in any case to Himmler. That is, the highest level.
Q Witness, could you tell this Tribunal at what time, according to your recollection, these camps were released from the competence of the WVHA and put in the charge of the Higher SS and Police Leaders; that is, for instance, in the case of Stutthof, near Danzig?
A. I can not recall the exact date. However, I can give you the approximate dates. In reference to Stutthof near Danzig, I am not so sure, it was in the October of 1944.
Q. Then how was it with reference to the case of Auschwitz and Gross-Rosen?
A. I believe that started around January 1945. It appears that the dates I am giving here are those of the evacuation. Of course, preparatory measures are part of that date which was carried out by the competent higher SS and Police Leaders that the camp at which -- or rather the date on which the camp was taken over by the higher SS and Police Leader, and the date at that time listed it about two or three months prior to the date I mentioned, because of the fact that there were quite a number of preparatory measures to take care of then, and Auschwitz and GrossRosen were evacuated in January 1945.
Q. There had been another camp that had early preparatory measures, wasn't there?
A. Yes, Natzweiler in the west was also pretty early. I believe it was in the Fall of 1944, but I can not recall the other dates.
Q. Your regular official position as Chief of the WVHA was to incorporate all concentration camp Inspectorates, that is, after 1 May 1942, then did you carry out official trips into these camps?
A. After the incorporation of the Inspectorate into the WVHA, I did not got to the camp more often than even before. My official position, and my official trips prior to that into the camps brought me to enterprises or meetings for gathering Information for decisions on questions which I could not very well see from Berlin, and after the incorporation I did not make more official TDY trips than I had made before.
Generally speaking, I went to the camps two or three times a year. I was to Dachau often, when I had made several official trips to Munich, at which time I had something to do with Party administration. I used the billets at Dachau, but I did not visit the camps, but I was billeted there. These other trips, as I said before, I had, as a matter of fact, just discussions on various matters which had something to do with the enterprises.
Q. Do you wish to say that you only carried out such trips as in your official capacity to talk as chief of Amt-W?
A. Yes, as Chief of WVHA, and so far as various other matters were concerned, also as chief of Amtsgruppe-W.
Q. Whose actual task was it to inspect the actual conditions of the concentration camps?
Q. That was, of course, Gluecks task as inspector. However, as I did mention before, I was under the impression that Glueck did not make much use of that particular task, because I actually had to force him to go on the trips. He had nothing else to do, but he did want to sit in Oranienberg with his collaborators, and he could have left anyway. However, he was just plain lazy.
Q. Is it correct that upon your request in reference to these official trips of Gluecks, they were assigned to Obergrappenfuehrer Schmidt?
A. Yes, I saw to it. Obergruppenfuehrer Schmidt was the name, and he was former chief of Personnel Main Office. However, he was asked to retire later on. I approached him, and asked him if he could possibly work again to help to support Gluecks in his inspection tours, because the number of working camps increased from month to month, and I found it necessary even before, because I had recognized Glueck's laziness, to assign an additional man as a successor to carry out these official trips, and from the Summer of 1943 onwards Obergruppenfuehrer Schmidt participated in these inspection tours.
In other words, they did not travel together; but separately, because of the burden to shoulder.
Did you ever take any measures with reference to these hard commandants of the camps, and the hard labor fuehrers in order to have them transferred?
A. In the execution of my task I dealt with all those particular points, where the labor assignment was concerned. I knew quite clearly that it could only be successful if the main leaders were convinced of the matter of importance in this task, and were willing to collaborate. I did not have that conviction in the case of some of the camp commandants. I felt that inspite of my warnings, they still could not get out of their own customs, which they had brought along from the Eickes school, and they did not want to change their habits, either. Many of these old camp commandants transferred, or removed slowly and slowly, or, rather relieved by putting better and a more regular force of men in there. I could see that such a measure might influence favorably the human side the whole camp administration. That was the reason why in the course of the years of 1943 and '44 I submitted to Himmler a request to make a transfer of came commandants, which was taken care of, and also made effective.
Q. I will ask you a question now in reference to the various individual camps. The camp of Dachau was constructed in 1933, and was increased more and more in the course of years. I shall ask you, what was the normal capacity in that camp, and how many inmates were in that camp during the time when the inmates were in there, and you can refer to your recollection?
A. I can only give you these figures to the best of my knowledge, anyway. In reference to Dachau I believe I can be able to say it was the normal height of 25,000 to the highest capacity which was approximately 60,000, and I also Know the number of labor camps, approximately. I say about twenty in Dachau.
Q. Then these work camps which you say numbered twenty are comprised within the 25,000 to 60,000 inmates which you just mentioned, is that correct?
A. Yes, the 60,000 inmates were distributed over the Stamm-camp, the concentration camp, the main camp, and also the twenty labor camps.
Q. When that concentration came of Sachsenhausen was created, according to your recollection, what was the normal capacity of the camp, or, rather, what was the maximum number of inmates in the camp. I would like for you to add at this point that there was a change in the name of the camp. That is correct, is it, that the name of the camp before was Oranienburg?
Q. The name had not been quite decided upon there. We had called Sachsenhausen that of Oranienburg, and Sachsenhausen was created in 1936. Normally speaking there were 20.000 inmates, and the maximum count was from 30,000 to 35.000 inmates with possibly fifteen labor camps.
MR. ROBBINS: May I ask for the record if Dr. Seidel will state the nature of the notes from which the witness is reading.
DR. SEIDEL: I asked the witness that he should tell the figures according to his recollection, and I believe that the witness is referring to a small slip of paper on which he has the approximate figures in order to refresh his memory.
However, I did not know that. I shall ask the witness himself to elucidate on the question.
THE WITNESS: I have my diary here. Of course, I have certain notes which I refer to for these names, which would be difficult to remember all the figures by heart. I started from those figures which I could remember. In other words, particularly in this case, the maximum number of inmates were 600,000 towards the end of 1944, according to the best of my knowledge and ability, which I distributed all over the camps. That is why I made notes. I did not find anything in the documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Answering your question, Mr. Robbins, the witness is testifying from a personal memorandum. All right, while I am at the microphone, we will take a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The court is in recess fifteen minutes.
(Recess)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, when was the Buchenwald concentration camp established, as far as you can recall? What was the normal capacity of this camp, and what was the maximum number of prisoners who were in the camp at any one time, as far as you remember?
A. Buchenwald was established in about 1937. Its normal capacity was 20,000 to 25,000 prisoners, and the maximum number of prisoners was approximately 50,000. I estimate that there were approximately 80 to 100 labor camps.
Q. When was the concentration camp Flossenburg established? What was its normal capacity? And what was the maximum number of prisoners at any one time in the camp?
A. Flossenburg was established in approximately 1938. Its normal capacity was 20,000 men. The highest number of prisoners was 30,000 to 40,000, and there were approximately 20 to 25 labor camps.
Q. The only women's concentration camp was the concentration camp Ravensbrueck. When was this women's concentration camp established? What was its normal capacity? And what was the highest number of prisoners at any one time in the camp, as far as you can remember?
A. Ravensbrueck was established in 1938. Its normal capacity was approximately 15,000. Its top strength was 25,000 to 30,000, and it had approximately 20 labor camps.
Q. One of the largest concentration camps was the Mauthausen concentration camp. When was this camp established, and how many prisoners were inside this camp?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Seidl, before you leave the women's concentration camp, I would like to inquire who supplied the women's concentration camps with their inmates. Where did they come from?
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, the Tribunal would like to know of what groups of persons the inmates of this women's concentration camp consisted.
Can you give us any statements on that subject - if they were mainly German women, or if they were mostly foreigners? I think that was the question, of the Tribunal.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes.
WITNESS: The transfer took place through the Gestapo. I myself could not see from the available documents where these people came from, what their nationality was, and why they had been sent to this concentration camp. I do not know any other details about that.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. How big was the Mauthausen concentration camp, witness?
A. The Mauthausen concentration camp was established in 1938 and, together with camp Gusen, which was in its immediate vicinity, had a normal capacity of approximately 40,000. And its top strength was approximately 70,000, and it had approximately 15 labor camps.
Q. The biggest concentration camp was Auschwitz, if I am informed correctly. Where was this camp located, when was it established, and how many prisoners were located inside the camp at the various times.
A. Auschwitz was established in 1941. It had a normal capacity of 80,000, and its top strength was 140,000.
THE PRESIDENT: Eighteen thousand?
DR. SEIDL: Eighty thousand.
WITNESS: Its top strength was 140,000, with approximately 60 labor camps.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. What were the conditions with regard to the Neuengamme concentration camp?
A. Neuengamme was also established in 1941. It had a normal capacity of 20,000 to 25,000 people. Its top strength was approximately 50,000, and it had approximately 60 labor camps.
Q. What were the conditions with regard to the Lublin camp?
A. Lublin was established approximately in 1942. Its normal capacity was 15,000. Its top strength was 20,000 to 25,000, and it had ten labor camps, approximately.
Q. The camp Stutthof was also established in 1941, or that is to say, it was taken over as a concentration camp. How big was this camp?
A. It had a normal capacity of approximately 15,000. Its top strength was 20,000. It had approximately ten labor camps.
Q. What were the conditions with regard to the Natzweiler concentration camp?
THE PRESIDENT: Which one?
DR. SEIDL: Natzweiler.
WITNESS: Natzweiler was also established approximately in 1941. It had a normal capacity of about 15,000 prisoners. Its top strength was 20,000 to 25,000, and it had approximately ten labor camps.
Q When was the camp Gross-Rosen established, and what were the conditions with regard to this camp?
A Gross-Rosen was established in 1941. Its normal capacity was 10,000 to 12,000. Its top strength was approximately 20,000. It had approximately 70 labor camps.
Q When was the camp at Nordhausen established? What was its normal capacity and what were conditions there with regard to this camp?
A Nordhausen was established in 1943. It had a normal capacity of approximately 20,000 prisoners. Its top strength was approximately 35,000. I do not think it had any labor camps for itself, but I do not know that exactly.
Q The last camp which we want to discuss is the camp at BergenBelsen. How big was this camp, and when was it established?
A Bergen-Belsen was established in 1943. It was supposed to hold 10,000 people and I believe that 15,000 people were sent there. It had one labor camp.
Q If I understand you correctly then, with the exception of a few camps, most of them already existed when on the 1st of May, 1942, the decree of Himmler became effective, which ordered that the Inspectorate of the concentration camps was incorporated into the WVHA. After that time, only a few new camps were established?
A Yes, most of the concentration camps existed already at that time.
Q In order to clarify one point completely, the figures of prisoners which you have mentioned, refer to the camps and to the labor camps which belonged to these concentration camps, so that only a relatively small number could have remained in the concentration camp itself while the other part was employed in the labor camps, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q With a careful estimate -- on the basis of your memory -- how many of concentration camps were there at the end of 1944?
A I calculate approximately 600,000, for the end of 1944.
Q What was the number of prisoners who were employed in private armament industries?
A Towards the end of 1944 there were approximately 230,000 to 250.000 prisoners employed in the private industries, armament and war production assigned for the construction of subterrian works.
Q According to your estimates, how many prisoners were under the authority of the Reich Ministry for Armament and War Production?
A These were the prisoners who worked for the special staff of Kammler who carried out this work by order of the Reich Ministry for War Production and Armament. There were approximately 170,000 prisoners.
Q In how many construction places for subterranean decentralization were these prisoners working?
A I estimate on approximately 20 to 25 big construction places.
Q Another part of the prisoners which was not directly working for private armament industries, but for important tasks of the Reich, had been organized in the so-called construction brigades. What was the purpose of these construction brigades? How many of these construction brigades were in existence, and how many prisoners were assigned to them?
A There were ten construction brigades to which later on five railway brigades were added. Each construction brigade had a personnel strength of approximately 1,000 men. It was subordinated to a leader who came from the concentration camp personnel and who directed it militarily and it also had a technical leader, who belonged to Amtsgruppe C. The same thing applied to the railway brigades. The construction brigades were to repair the damages which had been caused by air attacks at armament centers. They were fast mobile units who within a very short period of time could move from one place to another. This employment took place by order of the Reich Ministry for War Production and Armament; the railway brigades were organized in exactly the same manner. They were primarily to repair communication damages, which had been caused by air attacks.
Their assignment took place through the Reichs Ministry of Communications. All 15 brigades together had a strength of approximately 15,000 men.
Q How many prisoners of the concentration camps were used for the construction of the Fuehrer's Headquarters in Thuringia?
A I estimate that there were approximately 10,000 to 12,000.
Q Another part of the prisoners who worked directly for the Reichs, worked for the so-called construction Inspectorate. What were the tasks of the Construction Inspectorates, how many inspectorates of this kind were in existence, and how many prisoners can you recall worked for these inspectorates?
A The construction inspectorates belonged to the construction organization of Amtsgruppe C. There were four Construction Inspectorates, Reich North, Reich South, Reich East, and Reich West. They were directly subordinated to Amtsgruppe C and they were independent provincial agencies. Subordinated to them were the central construction agencies in the construction administrations. I estimate the total figure of prisoners who worked within the field of competence of these construction inspectorates as 40,000 to 50,000.
Q Another part of the prisoners were used in quartermaster offices, in building camps, in repair shops, and so on. How many prisoners, as far as you can remember, were used for this sort of work?
A In all the remaining plants, that is to say, the Quartermaster offices, the big repair shops, and also in the camp services itself, that is, for the maintenance of order within the camp, I estimated a total figure of 120,800 to 130,000 men, that is, for all camps and all purposes.
Q I now refer once more to the camp itself and to the organization. The concentration camps were independent agencies which were directed by the camp commanders. Did you point out this fact when you started your office, and, during your time in office, did anything change in this system?
A In the meeting of camp commanders in April 1942, I had pointed out this fact verbally in particular, and I emphasized once more the capacity of the camps, contained in the order issued by me in writing. In this settlement, nothing changed until the end of the war.
Q. The evidence has shown that most of the concentration camps, not in every case, but many of them, were operated during the war with a larger number of prisoners than had been intended at the time of their establishment. What caused this fact?
A. The RSHA did not consider at all the capacity of the camps. They did not ascertain beforehand whether there was still room for additional inmates. Practically it was in such a manner that transports arrived without any preparations being made before the arrival of these transports, and thus the slow overcrowding of the camps came into existence. The camp commandants then afterwards tried to obtain sufficient room by enlarging the camps, but in the years of 1943 and '44 this was extremely difficult, because of the fact that the building construction materials were lacking, and so the available space needed was always a considerable length of time behind the time which was actually required.
Q. You say that the RSHA during the course of the war sent more and more prisoners into the camps. What conditions were responsible for that, and what were the reasons for it?
A. The reasons for these increased numbers of prisoners are not known to me from my own experience. In part I can only make deductions from the documents I have seen, but I do not have any other available source for the information there.
Q. Did your yourself take any steps in that direction?
A. I did not take any single step in this direction to send anybody into a concentration camp. That was not my task, and, it was not my task to secure the necessary number of workers for the German armament industry.
I had the task to utilize prisoners who were located in the concentration camps, and to distribute them to armament industry.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you said you did not know where the added number of prisoners were coming from. Didn't you know that Sauckel was constantly being urge, to bring thousands and thousands of prisoners and civilians all the time -- during 1943 and '44?
THE WITNESS: Of course, I knew that inmates were being committed to the concentration camps, because of the fact that I was able to see that they were overcrowded, but I did not know from were these people were coming, and why they were committed to the concentration camps. I did not know that at all at the time. I could only assume.
Q. Could you tell from what part of Europe they were coming?
A. No.
Q. Didn't you ever see any of then?
A. Yes, I saw these prisoners wherever I called.
Q. Couldn't you tell by looking at them where they came from?
A. Of course, I could have asked the prisoners, "Just where are you coming from?"
Q. Without asking them, couldn't you tell from where they came?
A. I could not say that from their external appearance, because after all they were all wearing prisoners' clothing they all looked exactly the same.
Q. They did not all look alike no matter what kind of clothing they wore.
A. The prisoners were wearing the usual concentration camp clothing. Of course, the clothing was alike.
Q. You could tell a gypsy if they did not have any clothing, couldn't you?
A. Of course, yes I could do that.
Q. You could tell the Eastern Jews no matter what kind of uniforms they wore?
A. Yes, of course, I could also tell the Jews, but I could not see if they were Dutchmen or if they were French, or if they belonged to some other nationality, because whenever an external sign existed, I could tell gypsies or Jews, but that was all there was to it.
Q. You mean you could not tell a Dutchman from a Rumanian except by his clothes?
A. I did not make such a study when I passed through the camps. I did not pay any attention to that, because in this kind of prisoner garb they all looked alike.
Q. Going back to my first question. Didn't you know that Sauckel was being urged constantly to bring in more people to the concentration camps for war labor?
A. I did not have any official contact with the Sauckel agency.
Q. That is not what I asked. Did you know, and I don't care how you knew, did you know that Sauckel was being urged constantly to bring more men and women into the concentration camps in 1943 and '44?
A. I did not know that.
Q. Well, you were one of the few men that did not know it then?
A. Well, I did not have any knowledge of it. I only knew that Sauckel had been given the assignment to procure labor for the German armament plants. How many and how we managed , I did not know at that time. I have seen the the method that Sauckel employed here for the first time in these documents, but I don't know, or did not have a single discussion with Sauckel.
I knew him from his appearance, but I did not have any further acquaintance with him.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, pursuing this subject a little further. In regard to the different nationalities of the incoming concentration camp inmates, I understood you to say you did not know what were their nationalities, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is what I said.
Q. Weren't you curious enough to inquire from where they came?
I was not curious at all. There was no reason for me at all to inquire as to the individual nationalities of prisoners.
Q. As to all this mass of inmates rolling in, tens of thousands, reaching hundreds of thousands, the fact is that it never occurred to you to inquire from where they came?
A. I had not any reason to see how this mass of people came into the camps. In the course of my inspections which amounted to two or three during one year, when I visited big plants; then I concerned myself with the administrative questions. I saw people there. I saw masses of them there, but they were not groups which were separated according to nationality, or according to their races, but everything was muddled there. Therefore, I did not look at all to every individual prisoner, and asked where they were coming from. I did not even get the thought or idea of doing that at all, because in the course of my short official visits, I had to occupy myself with completely different things.
Q. But you did know they were not Germans?
A. Yes, I knew that all of them were not Germans.
Q. So it did not interest you to know or care how they existed, or where else they came from, so long as they did not come from Germany?
A. No, I did not inquire about that at all.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: In giving your figure as to the total number in the camps at the end of 1944, I understood you to put in the total number according to your estimate as six-hundred thousand?
A. Yes, that is what I figured and I stated.
Q. And when you gave an estimate as to the numbers in the various camps, and the number that were employed privately, and on camp programs, and construction, brigades and so forth, were they added to that number, or were all of those included in that number?
A. The six-hundred thousand is the total figure, and the other figures which I have mentioned, that is, Kammler, private enterprises, and Reich are included in the number.
BY JR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, as to the question of the Judge you have stated that you have never had a personal discussion with Sauckel. I am now asking you was there any kind of collaboration at all between your own office, the WVHA, and the agency of the Plenipotentiary for the Allocation of Labor? After all, Sauckel was also Chief of an independent agency?
A. Between Sauckel's agency, and my Main Office, there was no contact. The demand of the armament industry, which was addressed to the Inspectorate, would be discussed in that feature with the Inspectorate in the Armament Ministry, and the Ministry of Armament then gave its approval to the request, or they would turn it down.