A. Lublin was established approximately in 1942. Its normal capacity was 15,000. Its top strength was 20,000 to 25,000, and it had ten labor camps, approximately.
Q. The camp Stutthof was also established in 1941, or that is to say, it was taken over as a concentration camp. How big was this camp?
A. It had a normal capacity of approximately 15,000. Its top strength was 20,000. It had approximately ten labor camps.
Q. What were the conditions with regard to the Natzweiler concentration camp?
THE PRESIDENT: Which one?
DR. SEIDL: Natzweiler.
WITNESS: Natzweiler was also established approximately in 1941. It had a normal capacity of about 15,000 prisoners. Its top strength was 20,000 to 25,000, and it had approximately ten labor camps.
Q When was the camp Gross-Rosen established, and what were the conditions with regard to this camp?
A Gross-Rosen was established in 1941. Its normal capacity was 10,000 to 12,000. Its top strength was approximately 20,000. It had approximately 70 labor camps.
Q When was the camp at Nordhausen established? What was its normal capacity and what were conditions there with regard to this camp?
A Nordhausen was established in 1943. It had a normal capacity of approximately 20,000 prisoners. Its top strength was approximately 35,000. I do not think it had any labor camps for itself, but I do not know that exactly.
Q The last camp which we want to discuss is the camp at BergenBelsen. How big was this camp, and when was it established?
A Bergen-Belsen was established in 1943. It was supposed to hold 10,000 people and I believe that 15,000 people were sent there. It had one labor camp.
Q If I understand you correctly then, with the exception of a few camps, most of them already existed when on the 1st of May, 1942, the decree of Himmler became effective, which ordered that the Inspectorate of the concentration camps was incorporated into the WVHA. After that time, only a few new camps were established?
A Yes, most of the concentration camps existed already at that time.
Q In order to clarify one point completely, the figures of prisoners which you have mentioned, refer to the camps and to the labor camps which belonged to these concentration camps, so that only a relatively small number could have remained in the concentration camp itself while the other part was employed in the labor camps, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q With a careful estimate -- on the basis of your memory -- how many of concentration camps were there at the end of 1944?
A I calculate approximately 600,000, for the end of 1944.
Q What was the number of prisoners who were employed in private armament industries?
A Towards the end of 1944 there were approximately 230,000 to 250.000 prisoners employed in the private industries, armament and war production assigned for the construction of subterrian works.
Q According to your estimates, how many prisoners were under the authority of the Reich Ministry for Armament and War Production?
A These were the prisoners who worked for the special staff of Kammler who carried out this work by order of the Reich Ministry for War Production and Armament. There were approximately 170,000 prisoners.
Q In how many construction places for subterranean decentralization were these prisoners working?
A I estimate on approximately 20 to 25 big construction places.
Q Another part of the prisoners which was not directly working for private armament industries, but for important tasks of the Reich, had been organized in the so-called construction brigades. What was the purpose of these construction brigades? How many of these construction brigades were in existence, and how many prisoners were assigned to them?
A There were ten construction brigades to which later on five railway brigades were added. Each construction brigade had a personnel strength of approximately 1,000 men. It was subordinated to a leader who came from the concentration camp personnel and who directed it militarily and it also had a technical leader, who belonged to Amtsgruppe C. The same thing applied to the railway brigades. The construction brigades were to repair the damages which had been caused by air attacks at armament centers. They were fast mobile units who within a very short period of time could move from one place to another. This employment took place by order of the Reich Ministry for War Production and Armament; the railway brigades were organized in exactly the same manner. They were primarily to repair communication damages, which had been caused by air attacks.
Their assignment took place through the Reichs Ministry of Communications. All 15 brigades together had a strength of approximately 15,000 men.
Q How many prisoners of the concentration camps were used for the construction of the Fuehrer's Headquarters in Thuringia?
A I estimate that there were approximately 10,000 to 12,000.
Q Another part of the prisoners who worked directly for the Reichs, worked for the so-called construction Inspectorate. What were the tasks of the Construction Inspectorates, how many inspectorates of this kind were in existence, and how many prisoners can you recall worked for these inspectorates?
A The construction inspectorates belonged to the construction organization of Amtsgruppe C. There were four Construction Inspectorates, Reich North, Reich South, Reich East, and Reich West. They were directly subordinated to Amtsgruppe C and they were independent provincial agencies. Subordinated to them were the central construction agencies in the construction administrations. I estimate the total figure of prisoners who worked within the field of competence of these construction inspectorates as 40,000 to 50,000.
Q Another part of the prisoners were used in quartermaster offices, in building camps, in repair shops, and so on. How many prisoners, as far as you can remember, were used for this sort of work?
A In all the remaining plants, that is to say, the Quartermaster offices, the big repair shops, and also in the camp services itself, that is, for the maintenance of order within the camp, I estimated a total figure of 120,800 to 130,000 men, that is, for all camps and all purposes.
Q I now refer once more to the camp itself and to the organization. The concentration camps were independent agencies which were directed by the camp commanders. Did you point out this fact when you started your office, and, during your time in office, did anything change in this system?
A In the meeting of camp commanders in April 1942, I had pointed out this fact verbally in particular, and I emphasized once more the capacity of the camps, contained in the order issued by me in writing. In this settlement, nothing changed until the end of the war.
Q. The evidence has shown that most of the concentration camps, not in every case, but many of them, were operated during the war with a larger number of prisoners than had been intended at the time of their establishment. What caused this fact?
A. The RSHA did not consider at all the capacity of the camps. They did not ascertain beforehand whether there was still room for additional inmates. Practically it was in such a manner that transports arrived without any preparations being made before the arrival of these transports, and thus the slow overcrowding of the camps came into existence. The camp commandants then afterwards tried to obtain sufficient room by enlarging the camps, but in the years of 1943 and '44 this was extremely difficult, because of the fact that the building construction materials were lacking, and so the available space needed was always a considerable length of time behind the time which was actually required.
Q. You say that the RSHA during the course of the war sent more and more prisoners into the camps. What conditions were responsible for that, and what were the reasons for it?
A. The reasons for these increased numbers of prisoners are not known to me from my own experience. In part I can only make deductions from the documents I have seen, but I do not have any other available source for the information there.
Q. Did your yourself take any steps in that direction?
A. I did not take any single step in this direction to send anybody into a concentration camp. That was not my task, and, it was not my task to secure the necessary number of workers for the German armament industry.
I had the task to utilize prisoners who were located in the concentration camps, and to distribute them to armament industry.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you said you did not know where the added number of prisoners were coming from. Didn't you know that Sauckel was constantly being urge, to bring thousands and thousands of prisoners and civilians all the time -- during 1943 and '44?
THE WITNESS: Of course, I knew that inmates were being committed to the concentration camps, because of the fact that I was able to see that they were overcrowded, but I did not know from were these people were coming, and why they were committed to the concentration camps. I did not know that at all at the time. I could only assume.
Q. Could you tell from what part of Europe they were coming?
A. No.
Q. Didn't you ever see any of then?
A. Yes, I saw these prisoners wherever I called.
Q. Couldn't you tell by looking at them where they came from?
A. Of course, I could have asked the prisoners, "Just where are you coming from?"
Q. Without asking them, couldn't you tell from where they came?
A. I could not say that from their external appearance, because after all they were all wearing prisoners' clothing they all looked exactly the same.
Q. They did not all look alike no matter what kind of clothing they wore.
A. The prisoners were wearing the usual concentration camp clothing. Of course, the clothing was alike.
Q. You could tell a gypsy if they did not have any clothing, couldn't you?
A. Of course, yes I could do that.
Q. You could tell the Eastern Jews no matter what kind of uniforms they wore?
A. Yes, of course, I could also tell the Jews, but I could not see if they were Dutchmen or if they were French, or if they belonged to some other nationality, because whenever an external sign existed, I could tell gypsies or Jews, but that was all there was to it.
Q. You mean you could not tell a Dutchman from a Rumanian except by his clothes?
A. I did not make such a study when I passed through the camps. I did not pay any attention to that, because in this kind of prisoner garb they all looked alike.
Q. Going back to my first question. Didn't you know that Sauckel was being urged constantly to bring in more people to the concentration camps for war labor?
A. I did not have any official contact with the Sauckel agency.
Q. That is not what I asked. Did you know, and I don't care how you knew, did you know that Sauckel was being urged constantly to bring more men and women into the concentration camps in 1943 and '44?
A. I did not know that.
Q. Well, you were one of the few men that did not know it then?
A. Well, I did not have any knowledge of it. I only knew that Sauckel had been given the assignment to procure labor for the German armament plants. How many and how we managed , I did not know at that time. I have seen the the method that Sauckel employed here for the first time in these documents, but I don't know, or did not have a single discussion with Sauckel.
I knew him from his appearance, but I did not have any further acquaintance with him.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, pursuing this subject a little further. In regard to the different nationalities of the incoming concentration camp inmates, I understood you to say you did not know what were their nationalities, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is what I said.
Q. Weren't you curious enough to inquire from where they came?
I was not curious at all. There was no reason for me at all to inquire as to the individual nationalities of prisoners.
Q. As to all this mass of inmates rolling in, tens of thousands, reaching hundreds of thousands, the fact is that it never occurred to you to inquire from where they came?
A. I had not any reason to see how this mass of people came into the camps. In the course of my inspections which amounted to two or three during one year, when I visited big plants; then I concerned myself with the administrative questions. I saw people there. I saw masses of them there, but they were not groups which were separated according to nationality, or according to their races, but everything was muddled there. Therefore, I did not look at all to every individual prisoner, and asked where they were coming from. I did not even get the thought or idea of doing that at all, because in the course of my short official visits, I had to occupy myself with completely different things.
Q. But you did know they were not Germans?
A. Yes, I knew that all of them were not Germans.
Q. So it did not interest you to know or care how they existed, or where else they came from, so long as they did not come from Germany?
A. No, I did not inquire about that at all.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: In giving your figure as to the total number in the camps at the end of 1944, I understood you to put in the total number according to your estimate as six-hundred thousand?
A. Yes, that is what I figured and I stated.
Q. And when you gave an estimate as to the numbers in the various camps, and the number that were employed privately, and on camp programs, and construction, brigades and so forth, were they added to that number, or were all of those included in that number?
A. The six-hundred thousand is the total figure, and the other figures which I have mentioned, that is, Kammler, private enterprises, and Reich are included in the number.
BY JR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, as to the question of the Judge you have stated that you have never had a personal discussion with Sauckel. I am now asking you was there any kind of collaboration at all between your own office, the WVHA, and the agency of the Plenipotentiary for the Allocation of Labor? After all, Sauckel was also Chief of an independent agency?
A. Between Sauckel's agency, and my Main Office, there was no contact. The demand of the armament industry, which was addressed to the Inspectorate, would be discussed in that feature with the Inspectorate in the Armament Ministry, and the Ministry of Armament then gave its approval to the request, or they would turn it down.
Q. Witness, the task of Sauckel was primarily the procurement of labor, and not the distribution. Had the Amtsgruppe D anything to do with this activity?
A. I have already stated that we did not have anything to do with the procurement of labor. I have already stated it was our task to distribute the labor which was located in the concentration camps for the armament industry.
Q It is an established fact that during the war a large number of foreigners came to Germany for work. I do not want to examine now, at least at this time, into how many of them came voluntarily and how many were not volunteers. I am now asking you whether these people who came to Germany through the efforts of Plenipotentiary Sauckel were sent to concentration camps, or was it not done in such a way that these workers were brought to private quarters or were sent to labor camps which were under the administration of the Labor Front, for example, and who did not have anything to do with the concentration camps which you have stated were the outside camps of the concentration camps?
AAs far as I am informed, the workers who were brought into the Reich by Sauckel were directly distributed to the industries, and they were brought into so-called labor camps. I believe that these labor camps were administered by the German Labor Front. These labor camps, however, did not have anything to do with the concentration camps and the labor camps of the concentration camps.
Q Was Plenipotentiary General Sauckel able by himself to have any persons, no matter whether they were Germans or other nationals, brought in a concentration camp?
A He was unable to do that. He could only do that if he turned the matter over to the Gestapo. Any commitments into a concentration camp, as far as I know, was always channelled through the Gestapo. I have never seen in a single instance that Sauckel entered the picture in any way on that subject.
Q If the Gestapo or another agency of the RSHA, for example, the Reich Criminal Police, Office 5 of the RSHA, committed a German or a foreign national to a concentration camp, was this in any connection then with the allocation of labor, or were only security reasons responsible for that?
A For the commitment into a concentration camp, only the police or the security police were of decisive importance. I do not know that reasons of labor allocations would have been decisive for that. I have never been asked by any agency, for example, how large the requirements for the labor allocations were, that is to say, to fill up certain gaps. I have never had any negotiations with any agency, either Sauckel's agency or the RSHA - to the effect that the number of prisoners was not sufficient in order to meet the requirements; to the contrary, in these cases I told the plant owners, "I do not have sufficient people. I can not give you any." I did nothing whatsoever to increase the number of prisoners.
Q In the course of the presentation of evidence, witnesses have been called by the Prosecution who testified about the general conditions in the concentration camps. What observations did you make in this respect on the occasion of your official trips, and what explanation can you give to the statements made by the witnesses?
AAs I have already stated, as a result of my being overburdened with work, I was only rarely able to leave Berlin, and I went into a plant only when I had to make a decision only by looking at things personally. Of course, on the occasion of such journeys, I was also interested in other things which were connected with labor allocations. On my way to and on the return trip, I always looked at labor camps whenever I happened to pass by them. I looked at conditions under which the prisoners worked. I went into their barracks. I had shown to me the food which was given to these prisoners. I looked at the canteens. That was according to the time that I had at my dispotal and according to the situation. In general, conditions in 1943, until approximately the middle of 1944, were quite normal.
They were not the same in all the camps.
Of the bigger labor camps, I can name the camp at Salzgitter, which I visited; then the camp in Duerrenfurt near Breslau, the camp at the Krupp Works near Breslau. Then I visited the camp Heidebreck, in Upper Silesia, and perhaps some other camps.
I mostly watched the prisoners at work, because I was visiting the camp during the day time, and actually I was unable to observe any especially bad conditions. I do not want to say that this was the case everywhere. There were 500 to 600 camps. I do not know whether everything was in order there. These bad conditions which have been described here by the witness arose only, for the most part, toward the end of the year 1944 and the time afterwards. That was when the situation on the whole in Germany had already deteriorated to a rather large estent. This was the result of the destruction and the damage which was caused to the communications network, when it became increasingly difficult to procure the necessary food; lack of gasoline made it difficult to use trucks, and there were other factors which were caused by the deteriorated situation.
I have also seen that in this period of time the clothing situation of the prisoners was not such as had been desired in the interest of their health and the work which was to be performed. Whatever conditions were caused, before the year 1943, however, things were relatively bearable, and it was quite good in 1943. In no place which I visited were any specially bad conditions reported to me by the plant managers or the camp commanders.
Q The Prosecution has shown a film as evidence. It is entitled "Nazi Concentration Camps" and has been made by the U.S. Forces.
This film, in part, contains pictures which were made of the camps when they were taken over by the U.S. Army. Can these conditions in the camps at the end of the war be considered as typical, and do they justify a conclusion that conditions were such in normal times? What particular reasons were responsible for the collapse of the organization of the concentration camps at the end of the war?
A It would have been terrible if these pictures which we saw in the film had been typical of the concentration camps at all times. They are typical for the weeks of the collapse, and can in no way be compared to the conditions which prevailed in the concentration camps in normal times. It could not be prevented in view of the confusion which prevailed during the last few months even among the highest commanding authorities and in view of the fact that apparently nobody on the top level know what should be done with the concentration camps, that finally this dramatic and sad confusion resulted, which was shown by the films.
If the concentration camps and labor camps had been left where they were previously located and if they had been turned over to the Allies or the German Red Cross, if since the fall, of 1944 those people had not been again transferred further into the Reich from one camp to another in the middle of the cold winter, these sad conditions could not have arisen at all. Responsible for this are those who carried out this evacuation, and in this case it must be Himmler, if not Hitler.
In normal times, as I have already stated, I think until the summer of 1944, as far as the quartering and feeding and clothing of the prisoners were concerned, conditions were quite normal and bearable.
In any case, they were not so terrible as they were afterwards at the end.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q But what about the intentional extermination program? That was started long before the collapse of the German defense, or don't you know anything about that either?
A Mr. President, I do not know what extermination program you are referring to. I do not know that the transfer of the camps further into the Reich and that the placing of these masses within the Reich was based on an extermination program.
Q I am talking about the intentional extermination of the old, the sick, and the Jews, whether they were able-bodied or not, by shooting, by hanging and by gassing, especially at Auschwitz. Didn't you know anything about the extermination at Auschwitz?
A Of course I had knowledge of it. The whole extermination program, which was directed against the Jews, was an action which was channeled through the RSHA and for which Eichmann organized transports of Jews who came to Auschwitz and were exterminated by Hoess. That program had nothin; to do with the concentration camps as such, and the existing concentration camps were actually misused in this respect. The documents and the reports for this program, as far as I am informed, did not even go through the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps. This was all carried out in a very small circle.
Q But on a very large scale.
A Well, I had the first authentic figures after the war. At that time I did not have any idea at all that this number extended to millions. The whole program of the extermination of the Jews was dealt with by Amt IV of the RSHA, and the organizer of the transports was a certain man named Eichmann who sent these transports to Auschwitz, and there these transports were exterminated by Hoess, who in this case did not act as camp commander but as commissioner of Himmler or the Reich Government.
Q Were you in charge of the concentration camps while this program was being carried out by RSHA?
A I do not know when this program started.
Q Well, no matter when it started, was it being carried on at any time while you were in charge of concentration camps?
A Whether in the year 1942 to 1943 this extermination was still carried out I don't know. I don't knew how long it lasted.
Q Well, it is your contention they just borrowed the concentration camps to carry out the extermination program?
A That is my opinion, yes.
Q Just one second. In order to carry out the extermination program they had to build gas chambers at the concentration camps?
A Yes, but I did not have any gas chambers constructed. I did not give any order whatsoever that gas chambers should be established.
Q Well, were they constructed while you were in charge?
A I do not know exactly in what years the gas chambers at Auschwitz were erected.
Q Well, no matter when they were erected, were they there and operating while you were in charge?
AAs long as Jews were exterminated the gas chambers were working and operating.
Q And was that while you were in charge of concentration camps?
A I cannot say that, because I have visited Auschwitz only once in 1944 and perhaps twice in 1943. At that time I did not see that Jews were being exterminated.
I, therefore, do not know how long this program was underway.
Q Did you see any gas chambers when you were there?
A I have seen the gas chambers as buildings in the distance, yes.
Q You knew they were there.
A Yes, I knew that.
Q What did you think they were being used for?
A I knew that Jews were being exterminated and that the gas chambers were being used for that purpose.
Q And when you saw them and knew that Jews were being exterminated, you were in charge of that concentration camp?
A Yes, the gas chambers were standing there until the last day. They were standing there also when the concentration camps were subordinate to me. They were not destroyed previously.
Q Nor afterwards. They continued to be operated after you were put in charge?
AAs far as the extermination of the Jews was carried on, yes, but I do not know how long this continued.
Q Well, at least it continued as long as you were in charge.
A I do not know how long it was continued. I do not know when the last Jews were exterminated.
Q Well, you are trying to evade it, perhaps not intentionally. At any rate, after you became chief of the concentration camps, the gas chambers at Auschwitz and elsewhere continued to work?
A I assume that, yes, naturally.
Q Did you ever do anything to find out why people were being based to death, or did you ever protest against that program?
A On two occasions I discussed with Himmler the entire Jewish extermination program. The first time it was approximately in the spring of 1943. At that time I had discovered, in my trips to Oranienburg, that the Jews whom I always used to meet when they came out of the Schering Works in the afternoon in large numbers, and who worked there as laborers, suddenly did not appear any more.
The streets were empty. This attracted my attention so much that I pointed out this fact to Himmler during my next discussion and I asked him why the Jews had been taken away from there and he told me, "Well, all the Jews from Berlin are now being sent to Theresienstadt." I considered this statement to be true at the time. I discussed this matter the second time with Himmler after the speech at Posen. That was in October, 1943. That was the first time, at Posen, he told the SS leaders that the Jews were to be exterminated. This was the first official notification which came to my knowledge. After this speech I talked to Obergruppenfuehrer Schmidt, Von Herff, and other comrades, and we discussed the thing over the table. Their concepts of this speech and their opinions were not uniform at all. To the contrary, we were rather surprised about the way in which the Jewish question was now to be solved in such a brutal manner. For this reason, on the occasion of our next meeting, I again talked to Himmler about this, because I had been assigned the labor allocation. Otherwise I wouldn't have talked to him at all. We discussed labor allocations. On that occasion I told him that I still considered it stupid, now at the time when all the labor was so valuable to us, that I considered it madness to exterminate these people now. He became very angry then. He pressed his lips together and told me, "Well, that is none of your business. You do not know anything about this, and furthermore, you are too soft." Then he went to the adjoining room. He left me standing there, and approximately after five minutes he returned, and then he dismissed me by saying, "I have nothing further for you." Besides this I had no discussion with him about that.
Q Your objection to the extermination program was that it was interfering with your labor supply?
AAs I have already stated, I probably would have never even been able to talk to Himmler if I had started any other way. I was fundamentally opposed to the entire question, because the solution of the Jewish question, if it was necessary, in this form seemed to be most inappropriate.
Q But the only objection that you expressed to Himmler was that his program was killing off a lot of your valuable workers.
A With this argument I tried to bring about a discussion, and I have already stated there was no other argument with which I could have started an argument with him at all, but even this method failed.
Q You didn't try the argument that this was wholesale murder?
A I did not use this argument, which was clear with me, because this would have caused him much less to have started a discussion with me. I had to bring him into a situation which would throw him into a discussion, but even this method failed.
Q Did it occur to you that it was wholesale murder?
A Of course I considered this as mass murder, and I still consider it that today.
Q But you went right back to the concentration camps and continued to administer them?
A These gas chambers were only at Auschwitz. I did not see any other extermination facilities at other camps.
Q Didn't you see the one at Dachau?
A No, I never saw it.
Q Have you never seen it?
A No, not one at Dachau. I never saw it.
JUDGE MUSSMANO: The translation of one of your statements came through that you said to Himmler that the extermination of the Jews should not be done now. Do I understand from that that you indicated that you would be satisfied if it were done later?
DR. SEIDL: May I interrupt? Perhaps the defendant has never made such a statement. It is apparently here a very bad mistake in the translation.
JUDGE MUSSMANO: That is the reason I say that is the way the translation came through. In fact I wrote it in my book, "considered it madness to exterminate them now."