A. Yes, I knew that.
Q. You knew it was taken away front somebody?
A. Yes, I knew that, too.
Q. And you suspected it was the Jews?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Good night.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will adjourn until 9:30 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned to 22 May 1947 at 0930 hours)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 22 May 1947, 0930, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the court, please take their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2 Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session.
God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
OSWALD POHL - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, we stopped yesterday at Document NO-059. That was introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 488. It is in Document 19 on page 29 of the German and page 27 of the English Document Book. This is a report concerning the administrative development of the Reinhardt Action, which had been written up by SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Globocnik; it says there under paragraph I of this document, and I shall quote:
"The remarkable thing of the account is that the collection of the revenue was not absolutely binding as the collection of the stocks was only carried out on order and only the decency and purity and also the supervision of the SS-men employed in this operation could guarantee an absolute delivery.
"However, what had been seized and collected then and taken by the Department Reinhardt, has been accounted for and delivered with the greatest expediency and without defrauding."
I ask you, witness, in this connection who was in charge of the Abteilung Reinhardt, which is mentioned here in this document?
A The Department Reinhardt probably belonged to the administrative apparatus which Globocnik himself set up in Lublin.
Q Then the paragraph, which I just mentioned goes on:
"A preliminary examination prior to 1 April 1943 by SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Vogt of the SS WVHA has already taken place and proved to be in correct order. For the rest, the preliminary examination has still to be carried out. On the basis of an agreement with the Reich Finance Ministry this preliminary examination is final and, without the Reich Accounting Court, the vouchers and documents will be destroyed in accordance with secrecy regulations."
I ask you now, witness, who was it that made the preliminary examination which is mentioned here by SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Vogt?
A I myself ordered this preliminary examination. Competent for the examination was the Economic Expert at Cracow. He came to see me in Berlin and complained about the fact that Globocnik was preventing him from carrying out the checking of the local fund of Lublin. Thereupon I said, "All right then, I shall send somebody from Berlin." Thereupon I sent Obersturmbannfuehrer Vogt to carry out the checking of the treasury of Standort Lublin.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Is this the defendant in this case you are referring to, Defendant Vogt?
WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
Q Who was it that gave orders for the use of Reichmarks and foreign currency for the camps needs of the camps and in what connection is the credit of 13,000,000 to the German Economic Enterprises GMBH? Did you approve this fund?
AAs long as these valuables remained in Lublin, Globocnik could do anything he wanted to with it, but I used these amounts from the Standortuerwaltung Lublin. I was not asked. With reference to the credit of 13,000,000, to the German Economic Enterprises, the matter was the following: Due to strong orders for armament which started coming in after 1943 to the armament enterprises there was a lack of capital. Therefore, I made up my mind to write to the Reichs Finance Ministry in order to ask for a large credit, because the orders which came to the W-Enterprises, that is the Armament Enterprises, came exclusively from the Minister of Armament and War Production and from the Reich Air Ministry, which financed them, and in the last resort, from the Reich Ministry of Finance.
Therefore, I detailed Defendant Frank on the occasion of the report on the funds of Action Reinhardt, which had already been transferred to the WVHA to discuss this loan with the Reich Finance Ministry. Frank reported to me at the time that the Reich Ministry of Finance had nothing against a loan, although interest would have to be paid on it, also had nothing against using registered moneys of the Reinhardt fund. Then these last funds amounting to approximately 10,000,000 to 12,000,000 marks were used for the loan and the amount of approximately 18,000,000, I then took from the current Reich fund. As far as the total of 30,000,000 is concerned, it was a loan contract with the Reich.
Q How was it that the transfer of the other fund was carried out to the Reichsbank?
AAll other funds, that is, particularly for exchange, were given to the Reichsbank for final disposition. A compensation to the WVHA, or a crediting or identification did not take place.
Q What happened to the various jewels, watches, etc. what happened to them?
A The jewels also were transferred to the Reichsbank, and the watches and fountain pens were sent to Orienburg where they were fixed again in the workshops they had there. These watches and fountain pens were distributed by Himmler to the units of the Waffen-SS, the Army and the Navy.
Q What were the orders that were issued concerning textiles?
A With regard to textile, negotiations were carried out with the Reich Economic Ministry. However I do not remember that they were carried out by Globocnik, or by us. The Economic Ministry in any case requested the transfer of textile immediately to the textile factories, where they wore used as old material, and the textiles were distributed and usually were transferred to those agencies which Himmler designated, say, the Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle, and others.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Seidl, I would like to ask a question. Did the recipients of those various articles, watches, fountain pens and so on, knew from whence they came from?
THE WITNESS: The final recipients did not know that, because they were the soldiers. They did know they came from the WVHA, of course, that it was the WVHA they got it from. They could not possibly assume -
Q Well, were they given as outright gifts, or were they purchased?
A No, generally speaking they were distributed to these various units of Himmler's on Christmas. I had to set up lists by the WVHA, and they had to be set up according to divisions, and every division then received then a number of those things on the basis of this list, and the division commander then distributed them on to the various soldiers.
Q Then the division commanders, or all the intermediaries immediately preceding the actual recipients of the articles must have know that these articles were stolen property?
A No, they could not know that, Your Honor. I think it is impossible that individual soldiers knew that.
Q It was a pretty well kept secret then?
A They received them as gifts from their division commander, and receiving them from their commanders in the company, they would not have any knowledge were they came from.
Q Some of the articles must have carried evidence of wear, and it seems to me inevitable that a query would have been raised somewhere along the line where these articles came from?
A The soldiers could not see that, Your Honor.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well, that is all.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Let's proceed to document No. 519, in document book 19, on page 4 of the German and page 41 of the English document Books. This is a correspondance regarding the Osti in 1943, which was introduced by the Prosecution as Exhibit No. 490, and has reference to the taking over of the Jewish plants with Ghetto of Litzmannstadt by the Osti. I ask you, did you have anything to do with the transformation of the camp at Litzmannstadt into a concentration camp?
A No, the transformation of the Ghetto Litzmannstadt into a concentration camp had been ordered by Himller in July 1943 for the first time. However, this did not occur, and in December 1943 Himmler gave another order to the same effect. Thereupon, in January 1944 I detailed Vogt and Baier to Litzmannstadt, who were to report to me about the conditions there. In a short while, however, in February 1944, I had received this letter of the Reichsstatthalter in which it told me that Himmler had been there, and had canceled the transformation of the Litzmannstadt Ghetto into a concentration camp, and the matter was done with sofar as I was concerned.
Q Then to proceed to Document No-1271, which is on page 64 of the English Document Book No. 19 and on page 65 of the German. This is a report about to the auditing of the Osti, that is, from the beginning of this Osti enterprise until the end of the enterprise, 27 February 1944, and the document was introduced by the Prosecution as Exhibit No. 491. Do you know of this audit report, witness, and have you anything to add to the statement shown therein?
A This audit report was known to me at the time. I have nothing to add to it.
Q In connection with the introduction of the evidence in Exhibit Nos. 493 to 497, I will ask you, witness, what was the reason that contributed to the dissolution of the Osti GMBH, and what was the reason for it that it resumed work a little while later temporarily.
The relevant documents here are Documents No-1906, in Document Book 19, on page 90 of the English and page 98 of the German Document Books; No.1268, on page 99 of the English, and page 107 of the German Documents Books, Document No-726, on page 100 of the English and page 108 of the German Documents Books. Document No-2074, on page 103 of the English and page 111 of the German Document Books, Document No-2130, on page 107 of the English and page 114 of the German.
A The Osti was dissolved because all labor was removed from that factory. In November 1943, the liquidation later on was interrupted, because the Glasshutte which belonged Osti was to be kept going. The work was done on Polish labor, on orders from the Wehrmacht.
Q I have to concluding questions within that complex, witness. Did you yourself participate in any conference which dealt with the final solution of the Jewish problem, and did you ever issue orders to that effect?
A I did not participate in any conference which dealt with the final solution of the Jewish question; nor did I issue any kind of orders which were aiming at this final solution.
Q Did you yourself, or any other department of the WVHA ever issue an order which referred to the confiscation of Jewish property?
A No, such an order neither I nor any of the members of the WVHAcould issue, because we had no right of confiscation. In each case we would have had to refer to the State authority of that particular area, or then to the Gestapo, or the secret state Police, but I myself I could not do that.
Q I shall proceed to Document Book No. 20 which deals with the Warsaw Ghetto, and I want you to look at Document No-1611, on page 1 of the English and page 1 of the German document books, in Document Book No. 20. It was introduced by the Prosecution as Exhibit No, 498, as alter of the Reichsfuehrer SS of 9 October 1942, in the distribution list of which you are also mentioned. The letter deals with allocation of Jewish labor within the concentration camps, and in connection with this document I will ask you, witness, what were the reasons of compelling Himmler to take such a step, and what was the relationship between the Armament Inspectorate and the local SS-commander, who are mentioned in the Documents?
A The reasons which led to this measure of Himmler's were to be found in the basic conditions which developed in the armament field and the Government-General. The armament Inspectorate of the Wehrkreis Commander-SS and the Police Leaders were confronted already with the charge here.
The Army Inspectorate took the armament industries out of the Reich and took them into the Government General. That was during the transfer of enterprises where certain conditions developed which led Himmler to take that step. Enterprises already existing were being used by these private armament industries. The Jewish labor that was there was also being used to a high extent, and certain conditions developed out of that which were strongly corrupt. On the other hand, however, with regard to the SS and Police Leaders, and within their own sphere of activities, similar conditions had developed, where everyone in his own area wanted to open up his own enterprises. In these conditions the total lack of success of the armament industry can be explained and in order to clear up this matter Himmler took the measures which he described in this document.
Q. As Exhibit 499 the Prosecution introduced the letter of Himmler to Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger. The date cannot be seen clearly from here, but it seems January, 1943. This is Document NO-1882, Document Book No. 20, on Page 3, of both the German and English copies. The orders that are described in this document, were they ordered for the same reasons as were those measures discussed in the document cited before?
A. These measures are in connection with the orders which he issued in the document prior to this one.
Q. I shall then come to Document NO-2514, Document Book No. 20, on page 5 of the English and the German copy, the letter of the Reichsfuehrer-SS.
THE PRESIDENT: The date of this document it seems should be in 1942, in view of the statement in the document itself which says, "Now I once more set a term until 15 February 1942 when the following things are to be accomplished." Either that date should be 1943 or the date of the letter should be 1942.
DR. SEIDL: In my document I have the following sentence, your Honor.
That is in the fourth paragraph. "Now I once more set a term until the 15th of February, 1943, when the following things have to be accomplished." I have to draw the conclusion from that this letter might be dated January, 1943. It cannot be seen from my document.
THE PRESIDENT: In the English document it says February, 1942. That probably should be changed to 1943.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, your Honor. It would be a good idea perhaps, your Honor, to have the original here of this document in order to be able to judge on the basis of the photostatic copy or the original which date is the correct one.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Dr. Seidl, it is evidently 1943 because there is another order about the date, the 9th of October, 1942, in the previous document.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, Your Honor.
Q. (By Dr. Seidl) Then I shall proceed to Document NO-2514, Document Book No. 20, on Page 5 of both the English and German copy. It was introduced as Prosecution's Exhibit 500, and is a letter of the Reichsfuehrer-SS to you of the 16th of February, 1943. It deals with the establishing of the concentration camp in the Warsaw Ghetto, and I ask you now, Witness, was this concentration camp actually established?
A. This concentration camp was actually established a few months later. That was approximately in July, 1943.
Q. Then I shall proceed to Document NO-2494, Document Book No. 20 on page 6 of both the German and English copies. It was introduced as Prosecution's Exhibit 501. It is a letter of the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler to Krueger, the Higher SS and Police Leader, East, dated 16 February, 1943, in which the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto is being ordered. I ask you now, Witness, did you know the contents of this order, and were you in any connection with the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto?
A. I do know the contents of this order, and I am certain that I received this letter, and I discussed it with Kammler who was the Chief of Amtsgruppe C. He took over the further dealing with this matter, and the order was carried out by the Central Construction Office, Warsaw, together with the construction group of the Higher SS and Police Leaders for Cracow.
Q. Then I shall proceed to Documents NO-2573 and 1061 -PS that were introduced as Prosecution's Exhibits 502 and 503 and are the reports of the SS Leader and Major General Stoop concerning the assignment of SS and Police Leaders to combing out the Warsaw Ghetto between the 19th of April to the 16th of May, 1943, and I ask you now, Witness, this completed report, was it sent to you also, and did you know anything, or were you informed of the planned enterprise before it happened?
A. This conclusive report was not sent to me, nor did I see it. I was not informed of that planned action prior to when it happened, nor did I participated in it in any form.
THE PRESIDENT: The question is, did you know about it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it became known to me later on, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you know anything about it before it was accomplished?
THE WITNESS: Prior to that I knew nothing, nor did I have any knowledge of the plan or intention to do so.
Q. (By Dr. Seidl) Then I shall proceed to Document NO-2496, which was introduced as Prosecution's Exhibit 504. It is on Page 110 in the English Document Book No. 20, and on Page 155 of the German. This is an order of Himmler of the 11th of June, 1943, in which it is established to change the Jelna prison into a concentration camp. What is the connection of this document here with reference to Exhibit 500 in which the establishment of the Warsaw Ghetto has been ordered in Warsaw?
A. This deals with the same matter. The concentration camp of Warsaw was established in this Jelna prison. It was generally speaking a small concentration camp.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Just a minute.
Q. (By Dr. Seidl) The Prosecution introduced an order of Himmler as Exhibit 505.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did you give this order?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I ordered the establishment of the concentration camp.
Q. (By Dr. Seidl) As Exhibit 505 the Prosecution introduced an order of Himmler to the Higher SS and Police Leader Ostland, dated the 21st of June, 1943. A copy of this order was also sent to you, Witness, as can be seen from the distribution list. This is Document 2403, NO-2403, and is in Document Book No. 20, on Page 111 of the English and Page 146 of the German Document book. I ask you now, Witness, does this order have anything to do with the Warsaw Ghetto?
A. No, this order has no connection with the Warsaw Ghetto.
Q. Where was it that the Higher SS and Police Leader Ostland had his official main office?
A. The Higher SS and Police Leader Ostland had his main office in Riga, Latvia, which is in occupied Russian territory now.
Q. In other words, in the Baltic countries?
A. Yes, in the Baltic countries.
Q. When was it that the concentration camp of Riga was established?
A. I cannot recall the exact date of it. However, it must have been, I suppose, in 1943.
Q. How was it that the armament plants were transferred there?
A. As far as I can recall there were certain labor camps near Riga and one of those labor camps then became a concentration camp. I recall exactly that Amtsgruppe D sent leading and supervisory personnel to that camp.
With the transfer of the armament plant into that camp I detailed the economic expert with the Ostland enterprises in Riga. How the transfer actually took place in detail I couldn't tell for sure. I only know of a particular work which was being carried out near Riga. However, I do not know if the inmates were sent there from Riga. Later on, both at Wajwara and Kauen there were concentration camps, because these were the three concentration camps in the eastern countries, Riga, Wajwara and Kauen. I believe that they were transferred from concentration camps into labor camps. I had official dealings with the concentration camp of Riga. As far as the other camps were concerned they were being dealt with by the Higher SS and Police Leaders at Riga with the Economic Expert at Riga
Q. As Exhibit 507 the Prosecution introduced a report concerning the demolition of the Warsaw Ghetto which you wrote yourself on the 29th of October 1943 to the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler. This document, NO2503, on page 114 of the English document and on page 159 of the German document book twenty. I ask you, witness, what were the reasons that compelled the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler to destroy the Warsaw Ghetto, and who was it that carried out the measures in connection with that, in detail? When you answer this question I want you to take a look at the Exhibits 509 and 510 in Document Book 20, and also the teletype of Kammler's to Himmler, which was introduced as Exhibit 511. They are on pages 124 and 127 of the English Document Book 20.
A. The reasons for this destruction were given by Himmler himself in his order to the Higher SS Police Leader East. Exhibit No. 501. By that, apparently, they wanted to eliminate certain hiding places of the resistance movement. I already said before that the technical execution took place -- or was carried out -- by Amtsgruppe C, whereupon it was reported to Himmler through me.
However, all this was not carried out to the end because the Higher-SS and Police Leader Cracow transferred it to the Central Construction Administration in Warsaw for reasons which are unknown to me. That is how this came to an end.
Q. Witness, I shall now come to a few documents which the Prosecution introduced after resting its case, namely which are contained in Document Book 20 and 21, as an Appendix to all the document books issued thus far. I want you to take a look first at the Document NO-2156 which was introduced as Document 515. It is an affidavit of Dr. Werner Greunuss in connection with this affidavit. I ask you, witness, is it correct that in the construction program S-III also 2500 German laborers and approximately 3000 men from all branches of the services had been sent from Buchenwald?
Where were they housed and what were the conditions there?
A. It is correct that German laborers and members of various units of the army were used. However, they did not come from Buchenwald.
The workers were employees of private firms, which were being used there also. And the soldiers came from various army units and they had been detailed to that place. I know nothing in detail about it, however. Nor do I know how they were housed there. I assume that they were housed on the Ohrdruf training field which was near there.
Q. In connection with this affidavit I ask you further questions, witness; is it a fact that the camp physician, before their assignment to the labor, had to examine the laborers, and who was responsible for the fact that only healthy prisoners were used for labor?
A. I had ordered the camp physician -- that was through an order which was issued in 1942 or 1943 to examine these laborers. The order, I believe, was that the concentration camp commandant himself should be present during that examination. By that I wanted to achieve the fact that only people who could actually work -- only inmates who could actually work -- be used for that type of work.
Q. In this affidavit it states further that it was rather inconvenient for the inmates to work there. That is, with regard to the clothing. And that Barnewald, the administrative officer, did not want to give them the clothing although they did have the stocks of clothing. I ask you now, witness, do you know from your own knowledge anything about that, and do you think it possible that the administrative officer of the concentration camp of Buchenwald actually had sufficient stocks of clothing?
A. I don't believe that the administrative officer Barnewald in Buchenwald had sufficient stocks of clothing. Generally speaking, in old camps there were certain stocks of clothing. There was an administrative officer in charge of it. And that officer wanted to look upon those things as a last reserve. That does not only apply to Buchenwald but to all other camps. So it is quite possible that he had certain stocks of clothing. On the other hand, it can be understood, however, that he did not want to part with the last piece of clothing because he, just like any other administrative officer, had to have a certain number of clothes for cases which were beyond his control.
With the stocks they had, of course, they could have been able to eliminate certain misconditions-- for a certain while at least-and then the stocks would have been empty again, and the emergency would have become more serious due to the fact that no further supplies could be sent from the warehouses.
Those conditions apparently are the reason for these misfortunes.
Q. In connection with this document I ask you furthermore, witness, were cases reported to you and did you ever make any observations of your own about the fact that concentration camp inmates cut up their shoes in order not to go to work. They cut their shoes apart?
A. I never heard of such cases personally nor was anything reported to me about that.
Q. Now I shall proceed to Document NO-2368. It is in Document Book No. 21, on page 25 of the English and on page 24 of the German document book. This is an affidavit of a man by the name of Friedrich Entress which was introduced by the Prosecution as Exhibit 516. With reference to paragraph 12 of this affidavit I ask you, witness, do you know of the fact that only punitive details were being employed in the quarries? That is what is alleged in this affidavit.
A. There were punitive details there before. However, they were dissolved upon my orders.
Q. With reference to paragraph 14 of this affidavit I ask you, witness, did you talk about the Euthanasia program on inmates with Dr. Lolling, the chief of the concentration camp physicians? Or did you ever issue any order to that effect yourself?
A. I never discussed the Euthanasia problem with Dr. Lolling because this material only came to my knowledge here before this Tribunal. I never issued any orders myself to that effect.
Q. With reference to paragraph 19 of this affidavit I ask you, witness, did you, during your visit in Auschwitz in 1943, talk or did you have the construction of the crematoria explained to you in the office of the construction group there?
A. During my visit there I went to the construction office -that is correct. And I wanted to know about the general construction situation on the basis of a map of the camp on which the crematoria and the gas chambers had been drawn. The reason of this explanation, however, was to find out what billets were ready, which ones were being constructed, and which ones were being planned. Such an explanation usually always proceeded one of my visits to one of these construction projects there.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. This affidavit says that you came to Auschwitz for an inspection and at the time you were there the plan for the enlargement of the crematoria which was in the process of construction was explained to you? What do you say about that?
A. The plan of the crematoria was not explained to me. It says in this exhibit , that Sturmbannfuehrer Bisch off explained to me the plans for the expansion of the camp. The plans were on the wall and the crematoria to be constructed or under construction could be seen from there. And -
Q. Did you see that?
A. Yes, I saw that.
Q. Did you discuss it with him?
A. No, we did not discuss the construction in detail. We just discussed the main items that were on the map, and I only demanded an explanation as to what construction projects were finished, which ones were being built and which ones were being planned. And then we went through the construction project and we took a look at it.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Just confine yourself to the crematorium. Didn't you ask him why it was being enlarged--for what reason it was being enlarged?
A No, I never discussed that.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Why didn't you? Why didn't you?
A Well, I had no reason to do so because I did not order the construction of the crematorium.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You knew that the transport were becoming bigger and people were coming in and took more space than the crematorium to kill them. You knew that didn't you?
A I did not know that the transport were becoming larger. I had no idea whatsoever as to how many transports were arriving there because I had nothing to do with the transport that were coming to Auschwitz for extermination. That matter as, as I later on found out, was a special order of Himmler's to Hess. We were to establish an Amt W IV and I have no knowledge about the number of the transports, or about the dates of their arrival. I have no information whatsoever nor did I receive any report to that effect. Therefore, I could not recognize the reason for extending such an installation and I didn't head it myself. An extension of the crematory-
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I didn't ask you for a speech. I asked you a question. You answer that. Just answer my question. Did you go and visit the crematory and gas chamber while you were there on an inspection tour?
A No.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Why didn't you if you were inspecting the camp?
A I had nothing to do with the crematoria and the gas chamber.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The camp was under your supervision, wasn't it?
A Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Then why didn't you see everything that was in the camp? It was under your supervision.
A The extermination of the Jews and the gas chamber was not part of my field of tasks, therefore, I had no reason whatsoever to examine these installations.
I saw them while walking but I did not look at them closer because I had nothing to do with them. I went to Auschwitz in order to see the billets and the quarters of the inmates because in Auschwitz there were an enormous amount of work to be done. That's why we didn't have enough barracks. That is what I saw.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: When you saw these gas chambers you, of course, realized the purpose to which they were put to?
A Yes, that was clear to me, Your Honor.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You knew that people were going to be killed in these gas chambers?
A Yes, I knew that.
THE PRESIDENT: And you knew they weren't large enough to accomodate the number of people to be killed.
A No, Your Honor, I did not know that.
THE PRESIDENT: Why did you think they were making them larger?
A I did not know whether the gas chambers were being enlarged or whether they were rebuilt at the time because only now the basins--later on I found out that these two basins which had been in a different spot had been rebuilt--the entire installation had been rebuilt. Whether or not they were enlarged I could not tell.
THE PRESIDENT: But you found out they were adequate to take care of the business that was expected?
A I only heard that this extermination installation was built. I didn't know it was to be extended.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, wasn't it explained to you that in addition to more billets that they needed additional crematoria?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: You say you saw them walking by. Who did you see walking by?
THE INTERPRETER: He saw them while walking by, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you see any of the inmates on their way to the crematorium?
A No, I didn't.
THE PRESIDENT: Who built the crematoria in the first place?
A The crematoria were built by the Construction Department in Ausschwitz.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, was that Amtsgruppe C?
A Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: And that was one of your offices, wasn't it?
A Yes, that's correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you know when one of your departments was building these crematoria?
A No, the plans for the construction--only construction projects were not carried while the channel 2 Amtsgruppe C went through the construction to Berlin. The competency for the construction had been transferred to the inspectorate.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, it was Amtsgruppe C-2 that built the crematory.
A I do not know of that, you Honor, but in Amtsgruppe C I never saw any plans for crematories nor did I every discuss that matter with anyone.
THE PRESIDENT: You never saw or heard anything. But tell me whether or not Amtsgruppe C-2 built the crematory.
A I do not know that, your Honor. Your mean construction? Well, the Bauleitungen Auschwitz carried out the construction itself. Whether the plans were carried out in C-2 I do not know.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, where else would they be carried out?
A The plans could also originated with the construction department or the inspectorate. I even assume that they originated with the inspectorate.
THE PRESIDENT: That's the same inspectorate that was made part of your organization in March 1942?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: "No". I know what you are going to testify.