A. I do know the contents of this order, and I am certain that I received this letter, and I discussed it with Kammler who was the Chief of Amtsgruppe C. He took over the further dealing with this matter, and the order was carried out by the Central Construction Office, Warsaw, together with the construction group of the Higher SS and Police Leaders for Cracow.
Q. Then I shall proceed to Documents NO-2573 and 1061 -PS that were introduced as Prosecution's Exhibits 502 and 503 and are the reports of the SS Leader and Major General Stoop concerning the assignment of SS and Police Leaders to combing out the Warsaw Ghetto between the 19th of April to the 16th of May, 1943, and I ask you now, Witness, this completed report, was it sent to you also, and did you know anything, or were you informed of the planned enterprise before it happened?
A. This conclusive report was not sent to me, nor did I see it. I was not informed of that planned action prior to when it happened, nor did I participated in it in any form.
THE PRESIDENT: The question is, did you know about it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it became known to me later on, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you know anything about it before it was accomplished?
THE WITNESS: Prior to that I knew nothing, nor did I have any knowledge of the plan or intention to do so.
Q. (By Dr. Seidl) Then I shall proceed to Document NO-2496, which was introduced as Prosecution's Exhibit 504. It is on Page 110 in the English Document Book No. 20, and on Page 155 of the German. This is an order of Himmler of the 11th of June, 1943, in which it is established to change the Jelna prison into a concentration camp. What is the connection of this document here with reference to Exhibit 500 in which the establishment of the Warsaw Ghetto has been ordered in Warsaw?
A. This deals with the same matter. The concentration camp of Warsaw was established in this Jelna prison. It was generally speaking a small concentration camp.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Just a minute.
Q. (By Dr. Seidl) The Prosecution introduced an order of Himmler as Exhibit 505.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did you give this order?
THE WITNESS: Yes. I ordered the establishment of the concentration camp.
Q. (By Dr. Seidl) As Exhibit 505 the Prosecution introduced an order of Himmler to the Higher SS and Police Leader Ostland, dated the 21st of June, 1943. A copy of this order was also sent to you, Witness, as can be seen from the distribution list. This is Document 2403, NO-2403, and is in Document Book No. 20, on Page 111 of the English and Page 146 of the German Document book. I ask you now, Witness, does this order have anything to do with the Warsaw Ghetto?
A. No, this order has no connection with the Warsaw Ghetto.
Q. Where was it that the Higher SS and Police Leader Ostland had his official main office?
A. The Higher SS and Police Leader Ostland had his main office in Riga, Latvia, which is in occupied Russian territory now.
Q. In other words, in the Baltic countries?
A. Yes, in the Baltic countries.
Q. When was it that the concentration camp of Riga was established?
A. I cannot recall the exact date of it. However, it must have been, I suppose, in 1943.
Q. How was it that the armament plants were transferred there?
A. As far as I can recall there were certain labor camps near Riga and one of those labor camps then became a concentration camp. I recall exactly that Amtsgruppe D sent leading and supervisory personnel to that camp.
With the transfer of the armament plant into that camp I detailed the economic expert with the Ostland enterprises in Riga. How the transfer actually took place in detail I couldn't tell for sure. I only know of a particular work which was being carried out near Riga. However, I do not know if the inmates were sent there from Riga. Later on, both at Wajwara and Kauen there were concentration camps, because these were the three concentration camps in the eastern countries, Riga, Wajwara and Kauen. I believe that they were transferred from concentration camps into labor camps. I had official dealings with the concentration camp of Riga. As far as the other camps were concerned they were being dealt with by the Higher SS and Police Leaders at Riga with the Economic Expert at Riga
Q. As Exhibit 507 the Prosecution introduced a report concerning the demolition of the Warsaw Ghetto which you wrote yourself on the 29th of October 1943 to the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler. This document, NO2503, on page 114 of the English document and on page 159 of the German document book twenty. I ask you, witness, what were the reasons that compelled the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler to destroy the Warsaw Ghetto, and who was it that carried out the measures in connection with that, in detail? When you answer this question I want you to take a look at the Exhibits 509 and 510 in Document Book 20, and also the teletype of Kammler's to Himmler, which was introduced as Exhibit 511. They are on pages 124 and 127 of the English Document Book 20.
A. The reasons for this destruction were given by Himmler himself in his order to the Higher SS Police Leader East. Exhibit No. 501. By that, apparently, they wanted to eliminate certain hiding places of the resistance movement. I already said before that the technical execution took place -- or was carried out -- by Amtsgruppe C, whereupon it was reported to Himmler through me.
However, all this was not carried out to the end because the Higher-SS and Police Leader Cracow transferred it to the Central Construction Administration in Warsaw for reasons which are unknown to me. That is how this came to an end.
Q. Witness, I shall now come to a few documents which the Prosecution introduced after resting its case, namely which are contained in Document Book 20 and 21, as an Appendix to all the document books issued thus far. I want you to take a look first at the Document NO-2156 which was introduced as Document 515. It is an affidavit of Dr. Werner Greunuss in connection with this affidavit. I ask you, witness, is it correct that in the construction program S-III also 2500 German laborers and approximately 3000 men from all branches of the services had been sent from Buchenwald?
Where were they housed and what were the conditions there?
A. It is correct that German laborers and members of various units of the army were used. However, they did not come from Buchenwald.
The workers were employees of private firms, which were being used there also. And the soldiers came from various army units and they had been detailed to that place. I know nothing in detail about it, however. Nor do I know how they were housed there. I assume that they were housed on the Ohrdruf training field which was near there.
Q. In connection with this affidavit I ask you further questions, witness; is it a fact that the camp physician, before their assignment to the labor, had to examine the laborers, and who was responsible for the fact that only healthy prisoners were used for labor?
A. I had ordered the camp physician -- that was through an order which was issued in 1942 or 1943 to examine these laborers. The order, I believe, was that the concentration camp commandant himself should be present during that examination. By that I wanted to achieve the fact that only people who could actually work -- only inmates who could actually work -- be used for that type of work.
Q. In this affidavit it states further that it was rather inconvenient for the inmates to work there. That is, with regard to the clothing. And that Barnewald, the administrative officer, did not want to give them the clothing although they did have the stocks of clothing. I ask you now, witness, do you know from your own knowledge anything about that, and do you think it possible that the administrative officer of the concentration camp of Buchenwald actually had sufficient stocks of clothing?
A. I don't believe that the administrative officer Barnewald in Buchenwald had sufficient stocks of clothing. Generally speaking, in old camps there were certain stocks of clothing. There was an administrative officer in charge of it. And that officer wanted to look upon those things as a last reserve. That does not only apply to Buchenwald but to all other camps. So it is quite possible that he had certain stocks of clothing. On the other hand, it can be understood, however, that he did not want to part with the last piece of clothing because he, just like any other administrative officer, had to have a certain number of clothes for cases which were beyond his control.
With the stocks they had, of course, they could have been able to eliminate certain misconditions-- for a certain while at least-and then the stocks would have been empty again, and the emergency would have become more serious due to the fact that no further supplies could be sent from the warehouses.
Those conditions apparently are the reason for these misfortunes.
Q. In connection with this document I ask you furthermore, witness, were cases reported to you and did you ever make any observations of your own about the fact that concentration camp inmates cut up their shoes in order not to go to work. They cut their shoes apart?
A. I never heard of such cases personally nor was anything reported to me about that.
Q. Now I shall proceed to Document NO-2368. It is in Document Book No. 21, on page 25 of the English and on page 24 of the German document book. This is an affidavit of a man by the name of Friedrich Entress which was introduced by the Prosecution as Exhibit 516. With reference to paragraph 12 of this affidavit I ask you, witness, do you know of the fact that only punitive details were being employed in the quarries? That is what is alleged in this affidavit.
A. There were punitive details there before. However, they were dissolved upon my orders.
Q. With reference to paragraph 14 of this affidavit I ask you, witness, did you talk about the Euthanasia program on inmates with Dr. Lolling, the chief of the concentration camp physicians? Or did you ever issue any order to that effect yourself?
A. I never discussed the Euthanasia problem with Dr. Lolling because this material only came to my knowledge here before this Tribunal. I never issued any orders myself to that effect.
Q. With reference to paragraph 19 of this affidavit I ask you, witness, did you, during your visit in Auschwitz in 1943, talk or did you have the construction of the crematoria explained to you in the office of the construction group there?
A. During my visit there I went to the construction office -that is correct. And I wanted to know about the general construction situation on the basis of a map of the camp on which the crematoria and the gas chambers had been drawn. The reason of this explanation, however, was to find out what billets were ready, which ones were being constructed, and which ones were being planned. Such an explanation usually always proceeded one of my visits to one of these construction projects there.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. This affidavit says that you came to Auschwitz for an inspection and at the time you were there the plan for the enlargement of the crematoria which was in the process of construction was explained to you? What do you say about that?
A. The plan of the crematoria was not explained to me. It says in this exhibit , that Sturmbannfuehrer Bisch off explained to me the plans for the expansion of the camp. The plans were on the wall and the crematoria to be constructed or under construction could be seen from there. And -
Q. Did you see that?
A. Yes, I saw that.
Q. Did you discuss it with him?
A. No, we did not discuss the construction in detail. We just discussed the main items that were on the map, and I only demanded an explanation as to what construction projects were finished, which ones were being built and which ones were being planned. And then we went through the construction project and we took a look at it.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Just confine yourself to the crematorium. Didn't you ask him why it was being enlarged--for what reason it was being enlarged?
A No, I never discussed that.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Why didn't you? Why didn't you?
A Well, I had no reason to do so because I did not order the construction of the crematorium.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You knew that the transport were becoming bigger and people were coming in and took more space than the crematorium to kill them. You knew that didn't you?
A I did not know that the transport were becoming larger. I had no idea whatsoever as to how many transports were arriving there because I had nothing to do with the transport that were coming to Auschwitz for extermination. That matter as, as I later on found out, was a special order of Himmler's to Hess. We were to establish an Amt W IV and I have no knowledge about the number of the transports, or about the dates of their arrival. I have no information whatsoever nor did I receive any report to that effect. Therefore, I could not recognize the reason for extending such an installation and I didn't head it myself. An extension of the crematory-
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I didn't ask you for a speech. I asked you a question. You answer that. Just answer my question. Did you go and visit the crematory and gas chamber while you were there on an inspection tour?
A No.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Why didn't you if you were inspecting the camp?
A I had nothing to do with the crematoria and the gas chamber.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The camp was under your supervision, wasn't it?
A Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Then why didn't you see everything that was in the camp? It was under your supervision.
A The extermination of the Jews and the gas chamber was not part of my field of tasks, therefore, I had no reason whatsoever to examine these installations.
I saw them while walking but I did not look at them closer because I had nothing to do with them. I went to Auschwitz in order to see the billets and the quarters of the inmates because in Auschwitz there were an enormous amount of work to be done. That's why we didn't have enough barracks. That is what I saw.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: When you saw these gas chambers you, of course, realized the purpose to which they were put to?
A Yes, that was clear to me, Your Honor.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You knew that people were going to be killed in these gas chambers?
A Yes, I knew that.
THE PRESIDENT: And you knew they weren't large enough to accomodate the number of people to be killed.
A No, Your Honor, I did not know that.
THE PRESIDENT: Why did you think they were making them larger?
A I did not know whether the gas chambers were being enlarged or whether they were rebuilt at the time because only now the basins--later on I found out that these two basins which had been in a different spot had been rebuilt--the entire installation had been rebuilt. Whether or not they were enlarged I could not tell.
THE PRESIDENT: But you found out they were adequate to take care of the business that was expected?
A I only heard that this extermination installation was built. I didn't know it was to be extended.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, wasn't it explained to you that in addition to more billets that they needed additional crematoria?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: You say you saw them walking by. Who did you see walking by?
THE INTERPRETER: He saw them while walking by, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you see any of the inmates on their way to the crematorium?
A No, I didn't.
THE PRESIDENT: Who built the crematoria in the first place?
A The crematoria were built by the Construction Department in Ausschwitz.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, was that Amtsgruppe C?
A Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: And that was one of your offices, wasn't it?
A Yes, that's correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you know when one of your departments was building these crematoria?
A No, the plans for the construction--only construction projects were not carried while the channel 2 Amtsgruppe C went through the construction to Berlin. The competency for the construction had been transferred to the inspectorate.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, it was Amtsgruppe C-2 that built the crematory.
A I do not know of that, you Honor, but in Amtsgruppe C I never saw any plans for crematories nor did I every discuss that matter with anyone.
THE PRESIDENT: You never saw or heard anything. But tell me whether or not Amtsgruppe C-2 built the crematory.
A I do not know that, your Honor. Your mean construction? Well, the Bauleitungen Auschwitz carried out the construction itself. Whether the plans were carried out in C-2 I do not know.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, where else would they be carried out?
A The plans could also originated with the construction department or the inspectorate. I even assume that they originated with the inspectorate.
THE PRESIDENT: That's the same inspectorate that was made part of your organization in March 1942?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: "No". I know what you are going to testify.
A No. This construction inspectorate had nothing to do with the inspection of the concentration camp, your Honor. We are now speaking of the construction organizations. In other words through Amtsgruppe C doubtless--the construction department--there were the following instances: Amtsgruppe C Construction Inspectorate, Central Planning Office and Planning Office and Amtsgruppe C during the war transferred its competency to the construction inspectorate because during the war only certain emergency constructions were being carried out. The Amtsgruppe C limited itself to the accounts of the yearly contingents for the entire construction of the Reich and also in repairing various buildings and other ministerial tasks. Therefore, I only heard once that the plans for the crematoriums of the extermination chambers were not to come from the SS construction units. I understand they came from Bouhler's Agency but I do not know for sure.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, answer this question please. Do you know who built the crematoria at Auschwitz?
A The crematory in Auschwitz were undoubtedly built by the construction department in Auschwitz.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know who enlarged the crematoria at Auschwitz?
A Your Honor, the planning or do you mean the construction?
THE PRESIDENT: Both.
A That must have gone through the construction department at Auschwitz. I know nothing further.
THE PRESIDENT: Construction department of what?
A Construction department Auschwitz was under the office of the Construction Inspectorate of Posen it was in the Ministry of Amtsgruppe C.
THE PRESIDENT: Sure. Well, it was done by some branch of the SS, was it not?
A Yes, that's correct, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I guess that's as near as we can get to it.
DR. SEIDL: Then I shall proceed to Document No-2332 which was presented by the Prosecution as Prosecution Exhibit 519. It's an affidavit of Dr. Schiedlavsky, Dr. Gerhard Schiedlavski to be exact, on page 38 of the English Document Book No. 21 and in connection with this affidavit I should like to ask you witness, the basic orders for the camp physicians, were they were issued by you and Gruppenfuehrer Gluekcs on one hand and the Reich Physician SS Grawitz on the other hand and were discussed by your and how often was it Dr. Lolling came to see you who was in charge of the concentration camp physicians?
A The medical questions for the camp were discussed only by Lolling and the Reich Physician SS personally never participated in any councils nor do I believe Grawitz participated in one of them because only medical questions were discussed. Lolling himself came to see me once a month.
Q Then I shall proceed to my last question and this question refers to Document No-2510 which was introduced by the prosecution as 512. That is document book No. 21 on page 12 of the English and page 9 of the German document Book No. 21. This is an order of Hitler's of 2 August 1942 and for special authority about the coordination of the Waffen-SS, the Army, the OT or the Organization Todt upon Hitler's order, I ask you now witness, what's the connection between this Fuehrer Order of 2 August 1944 and what was the reason for the fact that you were assigned this task?
A This dealt with the reform which concerned the administration of certain Wehrmacht units which reforms had been replenished by the situation of the war, due to the administrative body of the army which was running parallel to the navy and the Luftwaffe, the Waffen-SS, the OT, Organization Todt certain conditions resulted which were seen by the fact that everyone of these administrative bodies only worked for himself. On one hand, for instance, so far as textiles were concerned they gathered large stocks while other administrative bodies had a definite lack of these items. For instance, clothing, but there are other reasons also. As we of the Waffen-SS got together--the Wehrmacht units had different administrative principles than we had and during the building-up of the entire administration stuck to the simplest rules.
As I already mentioned earlier, during the first few days of my assignment, I was assigned to carry out these reforms in order to build up the principles of the Waffen-SS and all this work, however was no longer completed due to the development of the war.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, the answer of this question is the end of my direct examination of the defendant Oswald Pohl. I would like to avail myself of this opportunity to ask the Tribunal to give us a decision on procedure which as something to do with the future proceedings of this case. The matter if the following: that the Tribunal has granted a certain number of witnesses for the defendant Oswald Pohl. I already spoke of a large number of these witnesses and it will not be necessary to examine many witnesses before this trial. I believe that two or three would be sufficient and I am also convinced to examination of these witnesses will not take very long. I intend to call a witness for Oswald Pohl, Dr. Schmidt who has already been approved as a witness. A few days ago I also submitted another request for a witness and this one refers to Karl Wolff, General of the Waffen-SS. The Tribunal knows the witness already from the trial against Erhard Milch. I believe that the examination of that witness will eliminate the examination of a certain number of other witnesses because that witness, Karl Wolff, has quite good knowledge of a series of things to which I wanted to have other witnesses at first. Therefore I would appreciate if this Tribunal would possibly grant my request that this witness be examined immediately after the first witness. I am putting this request before the Tribunal for the simple reason that I do not know for sure if the Tribunal has already received this written request, I state explicitly that I renounce examination of Gottleb Berger.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the Tribunal has been advised that you do not wish to call the witness Berger. The next proceeding will be the cross examination of this witness by the prosecution and by counsel for other defendants bearing in mind again that counsel for other defendants will only only cover such testimony as affects their clients and that all of the complex structure of the SS and of the WVHA will not be repeated.
When that is concluded, then, Dr. Seidl, you will call your next witness and who will that be? Your first witness after this one?
DR. SEIDL: The first witness is to be Dr. Sturmbannfuehrer Schmidt-Grebenow, who has been granted by this Tribunal. He is here in the Nurnberg jail and can be brought without any difficulty.
THE PRESIDENT: And then believe you wish to call the Witness Karl Wolff.
DR. SEIDL: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We lost the Witness Wolff one time inadvertently. Has he been found? Is he in Dachau or is he here in Nurnberg?
DR. SEIDL: He is in Nurnberg, Your Honor, and I already spoke with him and I believe his examination would simplify the proceedings and would expedite matters.
THE PRESIDENT: All right that determines the program for the next few days. To repeat, cross-examination of Defendant Pohl by the prosecution and by other defense counsel.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, the understanding that I have with the defense counsel is that they will proceed with their examination, after which I will examine the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, that's agreeable and then cross-examination by the prosecution and then the two witnesses who have been indicated. That will take us through today and tomorrow anyway, and we'll meet the next problem when it arises which will be after recess.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess will be taken.)
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the courtroom please take their seats. The Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Before you start, please, I want to make two corrections in statements made by the Tribunal, by myself. In questioning of this witness just before the recess, I inadvertantly referred to Amtsgruppe C-2. I should have said "Amt-C-2" number two. That is the special construction tasks. I used the word "Amtsgruppe," which, of course, was wrong. It should be "Amt C-2", "Tsvai".
I am told also that in announcing the recess for next Monday, yesterday, I said we would recess from Friday noon. I meant Friday afternoon. We will run the full session tomorrow until 4:30.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Dr. Rauschenbach for the defendant August Frank.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q. Witness, is it correct that the defendant Frank in the time from 1 February 1943 until 31 August 1943 was your deputy?
A. Yes.
Q. What was Frank's official position after that time, that is after the 31 August 1943?
A. He was detached to the Main Office Regular Police, where he was in charge of the administrative office.
Q. If I understand you correctly, he became Chief of the Administration of Regular Police?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. What was Frank's activity which he carried out when he was your deputy?
A. He was my deputy, and he represented me in decisions which concerned his own office group, and he represented me on important occasions outside the office.
Q. Therefore, it will be correct to say that Frank did not represent you in matters concerning the other Amtsgruppe, in particular D and W?
A. Whenever I was absent I was represented by the individual Amtsgruppe, that is to say, every chief of every office represented me with regard to his office.
Q. Did Frank in his capacity as Chief of Amtsgruppe A have anything to do with concentration camp matters with the exception of the budget question?
A. No.
Q. Do you know if Frank ever had anything to do with medical experiments and biological experiments, with uthanasia, or with extermination of the Jews?
A. He had nothing to do with it.
Q. Was Frank officially informed about questions of labor allocation and the work performed by prisoners?
A. He was not consulted in these questions either.
Q. Did Frank have anything to do with the clothing feeding, and the billeting and the treatment of prisoners?
A. No.
Q. Is it correct to say that you always personally reported to the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler about the assignments of the WVHA?
A. Yes, the reports about administrative matters as they were dealt with by the WVHA, were solely made by me before Himmler.
Q. Is it correct that whenever you were absent the official mail, which was addressed to you as chief, was not allowed to be opened by your deputies, but that it had to be left with your adjutant or it had to be sent after you by means of a courier?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Is it furthermore correct to say that already as early as 1942 and later on to an increasing extent you became more removed from the administrative tasks of the SS and that you left these matters to Frank to a very extensive degree whereas you turned your interest to economic matters?
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I have to object to the manner in which this examination is being conducted. I think all the questions which counsel has asked up to this point have been extremely leading. He first says, "is it correct," and then he states a long series of facts and gets the answer yes or no. I think he should ask about specific facts without stating hypothetical questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, this is cross-examination, and that being true, there is no objection to the questions being leading.
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, I don't believe that this is strictly cross-examination in that sense. The witness is not a hostile witness as shown by the answers to the first questions.
THE PRESIDENT: No, but this is not Dr. Rauschenbach's witness. He is confronted by a witness that he does not vouch for. He has not called him to the stand as his witness, and therefore he has the rights of cross-examination, including the right to ask leading questions.
MR. ROBBINS: The Prosecution bows to the ruling of the Court.
A. (By Dr. Rauschenbach) Witness, I do not believe that you finished answering my last question. The question was whether you yourself, since 1942, and later on, always removed yourself more and more toward the economic aspect and left to Frank the questions concerning the troop administration of the Waffen SS as his actual field of work?
A. Of course, in view of the increase of my tasks, and the assumption of new tasks, and later on, in '43, I was not able to work myself with the individual Amtsgruppe any more as I had done before. I had to give extensive authority and independence to the office group chiefs, not only of Amtsgruppe A, but also the others.
Q. Do you know who took care of the budget of the deathhead units and the concentration camps before the war?
A. Until 1936 the budget was submitted to the provincial governments. Later on they were submitted to the Reich. However, I believe until 1939 or 1940 the Inspector of the Concentration Camps himself, Obergruppenfuehrer Eicke, dealt with these matters. He made the budget as a contribution on his own part.
Q. And to whom did he submit that?
A. Either to the Finance Ministry in the Provincial Government until '36, and after the taking over of the expenditures of the concentration camps by the Reich, to the Reich Ministry of the Interior to by forwarded to the Reich Ministry for finance.
Q. In what manner was the Office for Construction and Budgeting Matters or the Administrative Office of the SS included?
A. The activity of the Main Office Construction and Budgeting was to put this contribution in to the total expenditures and budget.
Q. The activity of the Administrative Office at that time, on of the predecessors of the WVHA, was this only an administrative work and a forwarding of these matters?
A. Yes. That is what I have stated. The budget of Eicke was only included in the big budget.
Q. What was the budget of the concentration camps beginning with the outbreak of the war, was it a so-called unlimited open budget, or was it a budget as it had existed already in times of peace?
A. It was a so-called open budget for which the expenditures could be granted according to the necessities of war.
Q. Therefore the expenses for the prisoners, for example, billeting, food, medical care, etc., could be given without any previous approval?
A. Yes, that was part of it. I have already said all expenses, as far as they were caused by necessities of war, could be granted by the administrative leaders, without any prior approval.
That was for all fields.
Q. Did Frank participate in the meetings of the concentration camp commanders which took place regularly?
A. No.
Q. When by order of Himmler, as you have already stated yesterday in your interrogation, in July 1942 you saw Reichsbank Vice-President Puhl, did you know that this was property originated from the extermination of the Jews?
A. I had only been informed by Himmler that these were confiscated items and valuables which had come from the east.
Q. When did you hear for the first time of the title, "The Action Reinhardt"?
A. I heard this designation for the first time, that is when it was brought for the first time into the WVHA, by the investigation of Standartenfuehrer Vogt in June 1943.
Q. Was June 1943 also the time when you obtained your first impression of the extent and the amount of the valuables which had been confiscated?
A. Yes, that was my first impression. Yes, that is when I tained my first impression. That was in June, 1943.
Q. When did you first obtain knowledge of the origin of these valuables?
A. That was when the final report of Globocnik was submitted. That must have been at the end of 1943 when he submitted the big report about the Action Reinhardt to the Reichsfuehrer, and I received a copy of this report. That gave me an over-all picture of the entire action.
Q. When did Himmler make his speech at Posen?
A. That was October, 1943.
Q At the time when Himmler made his speech at Posen, and above all at the time when the final report of Glovocnik was submit ted, was Frank still Chief of Amtsgruppe A?