A. Well, I couldn't tell you for sure. Frank was an expert for budget matters. However, if he already was in charge of that department in 1935, I would not know for sure.
Q. Well, if he wasn't in 1935 he was at last by '36, was he not?
A. Yes, as far as budget matters were concerned. Of the special group task, Frank was active. That is correct.
Q. Referring to sub-paragraph 5, under Roman I, the Auditing Office. Who was in charge of this?
A. I no longer recall that -- who was in charge in 1934 or '35.
Q. There are three sub-paragraphs under the Auditing Office: SSMain Office including economic enterprises -- Were there economic enterprises under your office as of that date: 1935?
A. Yes. Well, I think that they were economic enterprises. I cannot recall that in 1935 we already had those economic enterprises.
Q. What does this mean, if it doesn't mean that they were economic enterprises in 1935?
A. Whether they were the bakery and butchery in Dachau, I no longer recall. As far as economic enterprises were concerned, we did not have at the time in 1935. It is possible, that ---
Q. Just a moment. You told us that you didn't have anything to do with workshops and enterprises in concentration camps before 1938. Now, I am just asking you to reconcile that statement with subparagraph C of your letter written in 1935. Sub-paragraph C, I would point out, concerns auditing for SS troops for special tasks: administrative office, concentration camps. Apparently you did have something to do with concentration camps as early as '35.
A. Well, this can only be then ---- There must have been a separation. Number 1 in the economic enterprises which had grown from the workshops. And then it is also possible that the bakery and butchery were under my supervision also prior to that time. However, it is not possible for me to differentiate between the two today because the economic enterprises which, in 1938 or 1939, were transformed into DAW no longer comprised the food enterprises.
The butchery and bakery were part of that enterprise in Dachau. It is quite possible that they were part of the SS Main Office or Administrative Office ever since the beginning.
Q. Well, it is not only possible -- it is highly probable from this document.
A. Well, I couldn't tell you for sure. I no longer remember the details.
Q. Will you turn to sub-paragraph 5, at the end of the letter? This concerns construction, does it not? Main Department V-4 in your office Verwaltungsamt?
A. Do you mean Roman numeral II-5, Roman numeral II-5?
Q. Yes.
A. Department V-4 C? Yes, that concerns the building matters of the administrate
Q. What sort of building and construction did this office carry on?
A. In the years of 1934 and 1935 it concerned the constructing of quarters of the political task units in Munich. Later on that Department V-4-C took care of the liaison between the units of the Special Tasks Group and the Reich Construction Administration building.
Q. It later became V-5, did it not? It remained Department V-5 after April 1936?
A. V-5?
Q. The Main department in charge of construction in the Verwaltungsamt?
A. I don't quite understand that. What do you mean by V-5?
Q. V-4-C, which was the building construction office, later became a main department V-5 in April 1936, the main department under the Verwaltungsamt?
A. A main office under the administrative office--there was no such thing. Neither was there a department V-5 as far as I can recall, at least, this main department V-4-C which is under V-5 here.
Q. Excuse me, perhaps the translation isn't coming through correctly. Did not V-4-C become a department corresponding to the other V departments, V-1, V-2, V-3, and V-4? Was there not later added a V-5?
A. I can no longer recall that for sure.
Q. Who was in charge of V-4-C building construction in 1935 and 1936? That was the defendant Eirenschmalz, was it not?
A. I think so. Yes, I believe that that was Eirenschmalz.
Q. Did this organization carry on all of the construction for the SS.
A. No, this department V-4-C was only in charge of building the quarters of the political task units. At that time there were two schools in Munich; and furthermore they had to take care of the liaison between the units of the Special Tasks Group and of the Reich Construc tion Administration as far as their buildings needs were concerned because all new constructions at the time when Kammler came in were being taken care of by the Reich construction Department in the Ministry of the Interior Office, were planned and carried out there.
In those years in the Administrative Office SS no construction projects were planned or carried out because we did not have the authority to do so. We did not have the permission to carry out construction work. In other words, with reference to all the projects of the Special Tasks Group, as far as building of their quarters was concerned, we had to submit it to the Reich Construction Dept. of the Reich Ministry of the Interior; and that is where they were planned and carried out by giving the orders to private enterprises.
Q. Did this section have anything to do with the construction of concentration camps on that date?
A. No, that department had nothing to do with the construction of concentration camps at the time. Those jobs were carried out by a construction department which Eicke set up himself and which was immediately subordinated to him and directly handled by him.
Q. Was this division or section given any notice whatever about the construction of concentration camps?
A. That department V-4-C, no. The construction department with Eicke was absolutely separated from this department V-4-C. They had nothing to do with each other; and the construction department with Eicke worked independently. It was not subordinated to me either.
Q. You wish to state that your building and construction office in the Verwaltungsamt up until the year 1938 had nothing whatever to do with the construction of concentration camps?
A. The concentration camps up to 1938 or even 1939 were being taken care of by the Construction Department Eicke.
Q. This organization, the Verwaltungsamt, in 1939 was reorganized, was it not, or in 1938?
A. In February 1939.
Q. It became the Main Office under Himmler for Budget and Construction and for Administration and Economy; is that correct?
A. It became Main Office Budget and Construction or then Main Office Administration and Economy.
Q. That organization in February 1942 was reorganized and became the WVHA? Is that correct?
A. Yes, I believe it was in January, January 1942.
Q. I should like to direct your attention for a moment to the duties of some of the chiefs of the individual offices under your Amtsgruppe. I should like first to refer to your testimony of last Friday, I believe it was. You were asked by the counsel for Georg Loerner:
"Q. Witness, I shall now turn to a few questions which deal with the clothing industry. Did Georg Loerner in his ministerial instance have anything to do with the clothing of inmates in concentration camps?
"A. The Administration of the concentration camps were competent for that.
"Q. And in a supervisory instance?
"A. In the supervisory instance the Amt D-4 was competent.
"Q. Was Georg Loerner responsible for the supply of food to the concentration camps and for the distribution of food rations to the individual inmates? Did he have anything to do in a supervisory capacity?
"A. No.
In this connection I should like to hand you Document NO-2616.
THE PRESIDENT: Is this a new document, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes.
Q. Would you turn to Paragraph 8 of this affidavit? First I should like to ask you, is this an affidavit which was signed by you?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. Will you turn to paragraph 8 of the affidavit? Will you read that aloud, please?
A. "It was part of Loerner's tasks to carry out the supply for the inmates of the concentration camps with clothes."
Q. Excuse me, my copy of the affidavit reads as follows:
"It was the responsibility of Loerner to assure the provision of clothing and nourishment to concentration camp inmates."
Will you refer to paragraph 7 of the affidavit?
"As Chief of Amtsgruppe B of the WVHA Georg Loerner was responsible for providing clothing, food, and accommodations to all units of the Waffen SS and when necessary to the General SS. He was also in charge of the Paris contract allocation office from which he procured a portion of such supplies."
Now, the Amtsgruppe A was under your supervision, was it not?
A. Amtsgruppe A was under the supervision of Obergruppenfuehrer Frank.
Q. Is it true as you have stated in this affidavit that it was the responsibility of Amtsgruppe B, which was under the defendant Georg Loerner, to assure the provision of clothing to concentration camp inmates?
A. Yes, in the ministerial instance, that is ....
Q. Georg Loerner and Amtsgruppe B were under your supervision as Chief of the WVHA, were they not?
A. That is correct, yes.
Q. I should like to read to you from a sworn interrogation of yourself which was conducted on 7 June 1946:
"Q. Other matters of feeding and clothing SS units were the responsibility of Loerner, were they not?
"A. Yes, that is true.
"Q. Yes. In fact, Loerner has stated, and I read from an affidavit of Georg Loerner of 7 December 1945, paragraph 10:
'Section B of the WVHA, of which I was the head, was among other things charged with the feeding of all Waffen SS except the front line units.
Providing of the entire Waffen SS and the concentration camp inmates with clothing was one of my duties.' Is this correctly stated?
"A. Yes, that is true. That describes correctly the duties of Loerncr. He was in charge of clothing, feeding and housing the SS and concentration camp inmates."
Is that a correct interpretation of your interrogation of that date?
A. Yes. However, it is not quite correct the way it is put. Loerner had nothing to do with feeding the inmates. If I said that he had something to do with the supply of clothes I meant by that the ministerial activity; in other words, as far as clothing was concerned the securing of the raw material contingents which were necessary for those clothes; and I meant that it had to be given out by the Reich Economy Ministry, and activity for which subordinated agencies could not be used. These were to be taken care of by the Central Office. The administration of the clothes which were created this way and their issue to the inmates were the activity of other groups, either of the administrative offices in the concentration camps or of the Inspectorate of the concentration camps.
Q Excuse me, I would like to call
THE PRESIDENT: May I interrupt, Mr. Robbins? Did Frank - Who was responsible for procuring or requistioning clothing for the concentration camp inmates?
WITNESS: Well, Your Honor, I have to ask first what you mean by procuring?
THE PRESIDENT: I mean getting clothing from the manufacturers, from the supply houses.
THE WITNESS: We, in the WVHA, as far as clothing was concerned, only fixed the quota on the basis of the applications of the Fuehrungshauptamt, in other words, on the basis of the total complement for all the troops; then the orders were given to private industries which were to make these clothes, and from then the clothes were then transferred to the various units, also to the concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: Then did your Department WVHA buy directly from clothing manufacturers, from the supply houses?
THE WITNESS: No, we only fixed the raw material quota with the Economy Ministry and these quotas were then passed on to these various firms in order to manufacture these garments.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, wait a minute. Let's take a particular instance: You need 5,000 jackets, wool jackets, for concentration camp inmates. How did you go about getting those jackets?
WITNESS: Well, the securing did not take place several times. You could not say that 5,000 jackets were to be procured and 5,000 jackets were gotten, but the yearly necessity was fixed, or the yearly requirement was fixed first, then requisitioned from the Reich Economy Ministry for one year a certain quota of garments and we had clothes made out of that, and those garments that were completed were then picked up by those offices that had required them. That was the activity of the WVHA, as far as the clothing department was concerned.
THE PRESIDENT: You determined the quota, or your probable needs for clothing and then you drew against that requisition or that quota as you needed the garments?
THE WITNESS: Yes, well, our requirements, our total requirements, were not always completed by what we received most of the time.
THE PRESIDENT: I know that never happened. You never get what you order, you asked for as many as you expected to need?
WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Who did that in the WVHA? Who ordered the clothing?
WITNESS: Those matters were taken care of by Amtsgruppe B.
THE PRESIDENT: What's the man's name?
WITNESS: Loerner.
THE PRESIDENT: Georg Loerner?
WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
Q That isn't what you told the court when you were asked by Loerner's attorney, is it? I would like to read again from that:
"Did Georg Loerner in his ministerial instance have anything to do with clothing of the inmates in concentration camps?
"Answer: The administration of the concentration camps were competent for that.
"Question: And in a supervisory instance?
"Answer: In a supervisory instance, Amt D-4 was competent."
A Yes, in other words, above the administration of the concentration camps was the administrative office of the Inspectorate; that was the center to which the administration of the concentration camps came with all its requests.
Q And this morning on the stand you stated that Georg Loerner had nothing to do with the supply of food to the concentration camps. That's what you stated in answer to the question of Georg Loerner's attorney. I would like to read to you from a sworn interrogation of yours of the 8th of June, 1946:
"Question: Who was responsible in your office for the reduction of the daily rations at Mauthausen toward the end of the war?
"Answer: The whole feeding program was under the jurisdiction of Loerner and Amtsgruppe B, since the whole matter of billeting, clothing and feeding was under the jurisdiction of Loerner."
I would like to show you another affidavit of yours, Document NO2527, and ask you to turn to Paragraph 19. This is an affidavit sworn by you, is it not?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q I would like to read from paragraph 19: "And Georg Loerner was in charge - "
THE PRESIDENT: Hold it just a minute, Mr. Robbins. Are we going to get copies?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute then.
Q Paragraph 19. Paragraph 19 of NO-2527. "I was very much interested in keeping inmates alive so as to maintain as great a labor source as possible. Georg Loerner was in charge of clothing provided to concentration camp prisoners, and therefore I frequently conferred with him in order to be assured that inmates were properly taken care of." Will you turn to paragraph 19 of the third affidavit, which I have given to you, NO-2736. "Because I was greatly interested in keeping inmates alive so as to maintain as large a labor source as possible, I frequently conferred with Loerner to be assured that the inmates were properly fed and clothed." Do you still wish to maintain that Loerner had nothing to do with feeding the concentration camp inmates?
A That was stricken out by me in the original. The German original reads as follows: "Goerg Loerner was responsible for the clothing of the inmates in the concentration camps and I had frequent conferences with him in order to make sure that the inmates received the proper clothing." The word, "Food", was stricken out by me in the original and I stated before that we, of course, in the framework of our ministerial activity had to work on the prerequisites to provide these inmates with clothing.
Loerner had nothing to do with the feeding of these inmates.
Q Do you deny in June 1946 you gave this answer to this question: "Who was responsible in your office for the reduction of daily rations in Mauthausen towards the end of the war?
"Answer: The whole feeding program was under the jurisdiction of Loerner in Amt Group B, since the whole matter of billeting, clothing, and feeding was under the jurisdiction of Loerner."
Is that a mistake also?
A What I said in 1946, that is, a few weeks after my arrest, I can no longer uphold. I corrected that point in affidavits which I wrote later on, because according to my recollection - my recollection was not as fresh as it is today. In this affidavit of the 13th of March, 1947, I have changed the statements to that effect, as I have just read it now, and I shall stick to my last statement, because that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, who did have charge of the feeding, if Loerner did not. Don't tell me the Reich Food Ministry. Who brought the groceries right into the concentration camp?
WITNESS: The administrative leaders of the concentration camp, who were the competent and responsible persons for that matter. They brought the groceries. They administered them and used them up.
THE PRESIDENT: And where did they get them? Where did they get the food?
WITNESS: From the deliverers who had been prescribed to them by the Food Departments. I already mentioned that before, Your Honor, when the Administrative Offices in the concentration camp on the basis of their personal strength they had to try for groceries with the competent food office. They would requisition them and that particular food office then told them who they had to go to see.
THE PRESIDENT: Who was in charge of the food office?
WITNESS: They were private grocery stores. They had to buy them from private firms, not from a food office. There were no special food offices, but the administrative leader in the concentration camp bought this food from private supplies in town.
THE PRESIDENT: Who made the contract with private wholesalers, the private food supply?
WITNESS: I know nothing of that, they had contracts with these food offices, they did not buy from the same deliverers all the time. The food office provided those food dealers which were in a position to deliver, in other words, had enough provisions. As a procedure, it did not touch the WVHA at all, it could not touch the WVHA, because it covered the entire area of the Reich.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, now. A camp commander at Nordhausen, wants a thousand pounds of beans. Whom does he ask for the beans?
WITNESS: He would send the administrative leader to the food office, which was possibly in Linzand that food office gave him a requisition slip for those thousand pounds of beans.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Now what I am trying to find out is with whom the food office was connected, was that part of the WVHA?
A. Oh, no, the Food Office was not part of the WVHA. It was a subordinated agency.
Q. Subordination to what?
A. Your Honor, of the Riech Food Administration. In other words, it was entirely different, the channel was entirely different.
Q. All right.
A. After all the Food Office was not a part of the WVHA.
Q. Well, what you mean to say, then, that no part of the WVHA had anything to do with supplying food to the camps?
A. We could not do that.
Q. But that is a fact, is it?
A. That is the fact. Inspite of that I did it without being permitted to do so in order to help these people in their emergency by simply taking Army food, taking it out of the Army stock and transferring it to the concentration camp, but I was violating my regulations, otherwise, I would not be permitted to do so. Of course I found no other way to help myself to do so, if I ever heard there was an emergency some place.
Q. That is not what you testified to in June 1936 when you were asked about the food, and the persons who were responsible for providing food in the concentration camps, is it?
THE PRESIDENT: I think you misspoke the date, Mr. Robbins.
MR. ROBBINS: 1946.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct. I admit that because shortly after my arrest I was asked many, many things which I answered, or which I did not answer correctly, or exactly, because there were a lot of things to answer; those things became more clearer, however, in the course of years, and in my last affidavits I made certain rectifications. I had to rectifications. I had to rectify several things, namely, because they were not very clear to me about a year ago.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Did any one during the period from 1946 until the date of the trial ask you to change your testimony on that subject?
A. Well, I was interrogated about several of these questions again in March or April, and, of course, many things came back to my memory, and were clearer. They were clearer then than they were about nine months ago. I was never asked to change my statements. However, I did it so far as it concerned the same things I was asked about.
Q. Were things clearer to you on 1 April 1947 when you signed the first affidavit that I showed you, No. 2616. Now I shall ask you to turn to paragraph eight of that affidavit where you state, "It was the responsibility of Loerner to insure the provision of clothing and nourishment to the concentration camp inmates," or, did you have a lapse of memory when you signed this affidavit about him there in paragraph eight?
A. Yes, what I said here as shown is correct, and I said that during the statement which I made before. So far as the concentration camps was concerned, and providing them with clothing, I explained, namely, what that task was, and what the responsibilities were. I have nothing to add to this.
Q. The statement contained in paragraph 8 that you have just read is correct, is that true?
DR. MUELLER-TORGAU: Dr. Mueller-Torgau for the defendant Georg Loerner. Mr. Prosecutor just said so far as Document NO-2616 is concerned, paragraph 8, showing that was part of Georg Loerner's task, I would like to state the defendant Pohl had already testified to that figure, to the carrying out of Georg Loerner's task of supplying the concentration camp inmates with clothing. It said nothing about food in here.
Q. This affidavit says -
THE PRESIDENT: Is this the affidavit in which the witness said he struck out the words, "And food"?
MR. ROBBINS: No, that is 2616, paragraph 8, where it said that it was the responsibility of Loerner to insure the provisions of clothing and nourishment to concentration camp inmates.
THE WITNESS: It does not say "food" here also.
THE PRESIDENT: We are talking about two different affairs. Which was the other one in which he said he struck out the words "And food." That was 2736, I think.
MR. ROBBINS: I think Your Honor, that is the affidavit.
DR. SEIDL: Dr. Seidl for the defendant Oswald Pohl.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. It says in paragraph 18 of Document 2736 - is that the affidavit in which you say you struck out the words "with food" before you signed?
THE WITNESS: No. I only raised that particular passage in Document NO-2570, 2-5-7-0 in paragraph 19 of the document. I struck out the word "food" there, and that, Your Honor, also is correct in the statement NO-2736, because in there I spoke of "clothing, food and billeting" of all the inmates of Waffen-SS, however, not of the concentration camps. That can be seen in one particular sentence. Furthermore, he was also responsible for providing inmates with clothing. Here also they are not speaking of food, and this applies to three affidavits which I had signed.
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, may we take a recess so I can examine the affidavit which the defendant has in his hands.
THE PRESIDENT: It is time anyway.
(Recess)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: I think before going further I had better mark the documents which I have referred to for identification, to be offered later.
The first document which I referred to was the letter of Pohl's which sets out the organization of the Verwaltungsamt, dated 1 October 1935. This is Document NO-2616 which will be Prosecution Exhibit 523 for identification. The third is NO-2570, an affidavit of Pohl's which will be Exhibit 524 for identification. And the third affidavit of Pohl's which I referred to is NO-2736 which will be 525 for identification.
Did you have something, Dr. Seidl?
DR. SEIDL: (Counsel for the Defendant Oswald Pohl) Your Honor, the Prosecution has just submitted NO2616 in evidence.
During the recess we have been able to look at the translation of this affidavit, and examine it. And, in checking the translation, we saw a big mistake in the translation. In Paragraph 8 of the Document NO-2616, the German text in the original of the affidavit, states: "It was part of Loerner's responsibility to secure the supply of the inmates of the concentration camps with clothing." In the English translation of this document, an addition was made which was not contained in the original document. Here it is stated "the provision of clothing and nourishment." The word "nourishment" is not contained in the original document, and I therefore ask that it be stricken from the record.
MR. ROBBINS: Dr. Seidl is correct. Apparently the translator translated the word provision as meaning "nourishment." At any rate, the words "and nourishment" should be stricken out of Paragraph 8, on NO-2616.
NO-2570, which is also an affidavit of Pohl, which is Exhibit 524 for identification, is correct as it is in English, that is, that Goerg Loerner was in charge of clothing provided to concentration camp prisoners. Also, the third affidavit, which is NO-2736, Exhibit 525 for identification, is also correct, and there Pohl states --
THE PRESIDENT: Paragraph 18?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, Paragraph 18. "It was the responsibility of Gruppenfuehrer Goerg Loerner, Chief of Amtsgruppe B, to provide all units of the Waffen SS and where necessary also the General SS with food and accomodation. He was also responsible for providing the inmates with clothing. In some cases he also put food supplies at the disposal of the concentration camps from Waffen SS stocks."
In Paragraph 19, "Because I was greatly interested in keeping inmates alive, so as to maintain as large a labor source as possible, I frequently conferred with Loerner to be assured that the inmates were properly fed and clothed." That is as it stands in the original German which was signed by Pohl.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. It is true, is it not, as you state in Paragraph 18 of the affidavit which I have just referred to, the Loerner in some cases put food supplies at the disposal of the concentration camps? Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And You as Chief of the WVHA had responsibility to see that the inmates were fed; is that correct?
A. Within the framework of my activity as Chief of the WVHA, within the possibilities that existed, and which I did not personally determine. Of course, as far as I had a personal influence on it; as far as I had influence on the matter.
Q. But as far as you could arrange to feed the inmates, it was your responsibility to see that they were fed?
A. I did more than I had to do and than I was able to do.
Q. What person in the WVHA assisted you in performing that task?
A. With regard to food?
Q. Yes.
A. With regard to food there was no work to be done in the WVHA because all the work concerning food was carried out at the lowest level. Purchase, control and preparation of the food; and the WVHA did not have to perform any work in that respect. Indeed, as to responsibility for that, I have already described that, just how the process worked. We could not increase the food rations as we would have liked to; and therefore we could not even collaborate with this lower level. The responsible persons on the lower eschelon, the lower level, on their part were also carrying through the orders which came from the Reich Food Ministry. There was no room left for any individual and free activity. We had to take care that whatever we had at our dispersal --
Q. Excuse me, you say that you had to utilize the food that was put at your disposal. Who assisted you in the utilization of that food for the inmates?
A. Who?
Q. You say in your affidavit that in some cases Loerner did that and you just said on the stand that is correct.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Tschentschner also helped you in that respect, did he not?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. In order to get a clearer picture of the development of this organization and the responsibility of each of the offices in the WVHA as they developed from the early organization, I think it is necessary to go back to the first exhibit which I showed you this morning, which is Exhibit 522 for identification, NO-5747.
THE PRESIDENT:NO-1574.
MR. ROBBINS: I'm sorry, it is NO-1574.
Q. You have told us, referring to Paragraph II, that the Main Department V-I was either in 1935 or in 1936 under the defendant Frank. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. The defendant Frank was also your deputy, was he not, in the Verwaltungsamt?
A. I cannot recall that in detail. However, I believe it was Faist whom I have mentioned previously. In my opinion he had a higher rank and he was much older. However, he left the office later on. Frank at that time had a comparatively low rank. However, I cannot say that exactly. I consider it improbable that Frank was my deputy at that time.
Q. Well, some time during the period 1935 to 1938, during which the Verwaltungsamt was in existence, that is, the administrative office, Frank was your deputy, was he not?
A. Yes, later on he became my deputy.
Q. Referring to sub-paragraph 3, Main Department Accounting, do you recall who was in charge of that?
A. I don't remember that any more. I can't remember who it was. I only know that Faist and Weber, two older leaders, occupied top positions at that time. They were senior men. But I cannot remember of what main departments they were in charge. It may be that Faist, whom I have previously mentioned, had Department V-2. However, I cannot remember that exactly.
Q. Referring to Main Department V-3, Clothing and Equipment, Georg Loerner was in charge of this, was he not?
A. Yes, Loerner must have occupied that position as early as that time.
Q. What were Goerg Loerner's duties as head of the Main Department V-3?
A. First of all, and perhaps this was the most important, he took care of the clothing and equipment of the Verfuegungstruppe, the Special Task Group, as far as it existed at that time. The clothing of the Allgemeine SS, the General SS, was carried out by the Party through the Reich Quartermaster agency; and there was not much administrative work to be carried out in that respect.
The clothing office at that time was about to be established. That was the pay office for clothing; and it did not have any particular importance. Its main work consisted of the procurement of uniforms for the Special Task units. It had to determine the requirements. They had to ascertain the necessary funds; and they had to include these sums into the budget. Then they had to secure the delivery in agreement with agencies of the army. That was the primary part of their work; that was the main part of the work of Main Department V-3.
Q. He had to obtain the clothing and equipment for the SS Special Duty troops, the VT?
A. Yes. Yes, first of all, clothing.
Q. And clothing and equipment for the SS Death-Head units? Is that correct; the so called TV?
A. Yes. They wore a different type of uniform at that time. I believe Eicke followed his own ways in that respect also. The uniforms did not even have the same color as the uniforms of the Special Duty units. As far as I can remember, he had these uniforms made specially with the approval of Himmler. These uniforms were different as to their color and --
Q. Excuse me. He also had the duties of obtaining clothing and equipment for the Allgemeine SS; is that correct?
A. No. I have already pointed out that this was procured by the Reich Quartermaster Agency, which was an agency of the Party. It was requested by the agencies of the Reich directly. They had to be requested by the highest Reich authorities. These were the so-called Oberabschnitte, the higher sectors. They requested the uniforms for the General SS directly from the Reich Ordnance Officer. We had nothing to do with it.