Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Well, there was a big sign near the entrance which said so and so many steps up to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. That is where Scheide's room was. I don't exactly remember the figure, but the number of steps were precisely given. Certainly 100 meters airline. I believe it said 98 steps up to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl's office.
Q In other words, Witness, it was not really thus that all the defendants were together locally that they could go from one room to the other?
A No.
DR. HOFFMAN: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The next witness.
(Witness excused.)
DR. SEIDL (For Defendant Oswald Pohl) I would appreciate it if Karl Wolff, Obergruppenfuehrer, General of the Waffen-SS, be brought in.
KARL WOLFF, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSSMANO: Please raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSSMANO: You may now be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, will you give this Tribunal your full name?
A My name is Karl Wolff. My last name, Wolff, is spelled with double "f".
Q When and where were you born?
A I was born on the 13th of May, 1900, in Darmstadt.
Q What position did you have in the Waffen-SS, and what was your last rank you achieved, what were your positions in the entire SS, Court No. II, Case No. 4.including the Allgemeine and the Waffen-SS?
A In October, 1931, I joined the Allgemeine SS, that is the first SS Standarte in Munich, and that was in an unpaid position as an honorary member. When we took over the power in Bavaria I was assigned as adjutant to General Ritter von Epp, who was Bavarian prime minister and Reichsstatthalter at that time. In May, 1933, the then Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, called me as an adjutant in a full time position. That is, in other words, I became reactivated, because already during the First World War I had been an active professional officer. From 1933 to '36 I was being assigned as adjutant and chief adjutant to the Reichsfuehrer-SS. From 1936 to 1939, in other words, up until the beginning of the war, I became the chief of his personal staff, and at the outbreak of the war I was assigned to the Fuehrer Adolf Hitler as liaison officer for the Waffen-SS in his headquarters, where I was active until the 18th of February, 1943. Then I became sick, and that prevailed for approximately six months, and on the 9th of September, 1943, as Higher SS and Police Leader, I was sent to Italy. I kept that function until the end of the war, that is May, 1945. In addition to that I was assigned to the ex-Duce Mussolini by the Fuehrer as a special expert for police matters.
From the 26th of July, 1944, and until the end of the war I received the additional function of the military commander of Italy with the title Plenipotentiary General for the Armed Forces in Italy.
A week prior to the beginning of the French campaign I was appointed first general, with the rank of a lieutenant general of the Waffen-SS. Is that sufficient?
Q Yes. Witness, how long have you known the late Obergruppenfuehrer Oswald Pohl, who is a defendant in this trial, and under what circumstances was he transferred from the navy into the SS? How did the whole thing occur, how did it develop?
A I have known Oswald Pohl since January, 1934, personally. The Reichsfuehrer-SS in 1933 had made the acquaintance of Oswald Pohl, Court No. II, Case No. 4.and on account of the excellent recommendations by his naval superiors of that time he wanted to have him in the SS as administrative chief.
Pohl at the time had an esteemed position, in other words, a secure position for his life with the navy which entitled him to a pension, whereas the SS in January, 1934, was a rather young organization, or shall we say unit, which did not offer any material security, or any financial possibilities of development. The Reichsfuehrer-SS in January, 1934, told me, or rather ordered me to get Pohl to Berlin for a conference and to have preliminary discussions with Pohl prior to his conference with respect to the possibilities of development and also to explain to him the task which he was to perform in the SS.
I recall exactly that Pohl at the beginning did not feel like accepting the Reichsfuehrer's SS offer. However, after I had told him the task which he was supposed to carry out in the development of the special task group of the SS, that is the predecessor of the WaffenSS, and after I had told him what the ideal aims would be to serve by joining the SS, he finally agreed. I also recall that at the time he joined with the rank of SS-Standartenfuehrer, which was not too high, with the monthly pay of 600 marks. According to the rate at the time it was approximately a little bit more than $150.00, in other words, not an amount which would force a man to join a criminal organization and to support it in every way. I myself had taken the same chance nine months ago, and that for 450 marks a month with a rank of Hauptsturmfuehrer, in other words, something over $100.00.
Q Witness, you testified that Pohl, in January, 1934, had joined the SS, that is he was transferred from the navy. That was before the Roehm putch which took place in June 1934?
A Yes.
Q Did the SS at the time already play an important part in the Third Reich, particularly compared with the SA, which at the time was still very influential?
A No. The SS, ever since the beginning, was nothing but a Court No. II, Case No. 4.selected minority which had been well trained, which amounted to approximately ten percent of the entire strength of the SA, and never exceeded that ten percent margin, according to my opinion.
The Reichsfuehrer-SS, Heinrich Himmler, in January, 1934, was personally subordinate to the Chief of the SA at the time, Roehm.
Q Witness, the Defendant Oswald Pohl and sixteen of his other co-defendants, are charged in Count IV of the indictment of having been members of a criminal organization, namely the SS. In view of the fact that you have known the Defendant Oswald Pohl since 1934, and apparently know his entire career within the SS, I would like to ask you now, Witness, which were the tasks and aims of the SS and in what way the Defendant Oswald Pohl at the various times was active in the SS?
A. The SS, ever since the beginning, has supposed to be an elite unit, and that not only according to the appearance but also according to their attitude, their character, and also according to its achievements. The SS was to be some sort of a guard, as they were entertained by Kings, at all times both in Germany and in other countries, and who were in charge of the security of the leading personalities of the respective countries. In excess of that, the tasks developed later on: protection of the Reich from the inside, seizure and training of this elite and excellent German material. As far as these people were not already in the Wehrmacht, and unless, of course, they were prevented from joining due to certain party regulations. These people were to become some part of a group of leadership of purest end the best kind. No other motives but these decent, honest, motives, in which we firmly believed, would have induced us to join the SS. Especially not as a main profession, because we all hadour incomes and we really did not need to become professional criminals.
Q. Witness, the Reichsfuehrung SS had been separated, divided with 12 main offices under the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler. At any rate, ever since the beginning of the war. I ask you now, witness, amongst those twelve main offices was there any close connection, and what were the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler's principles when he issued orders?
A. These twelve main offices, developed only in the course of years. They were vertically distinctly separated from each other. No Main Office chief of one office could possibly give orders within the district of the other one. It was also a peculiarity of the Reichsfuehrer SS, to have individual conferences with each chief of the main offices. In other words, not all the Main Office Chiefs were called together in one conference and none was permitted to report on his own activity in the presence of all the others, and to have them report in the presence of all others. At the time, we believed that due to the last number of tasks which were to be dealt with at the time, the Reichsfuehrer wanted to divide and rule and did not want to take up the time of all these Main Office chiefs by having them participate in conferences with which the others had nothing to do.
Matters which the other Main offices had nothing to do, and in the course of the war. Approximately since the middle of the war. And due to the increase in difficulties, the conviction occurred that there was a specific aim behind it all; namely to divide and to dominate by this dividing. In other words, everyone should know only what they were supposed to know for his task, and thus not entrusting anybody quite unmistakably as a deputy Reichsfuehrer or sort of State secretary for the entire fields of competencies of the Reichsfuehrer.
Q. Witness, the defendant Oswald Pohl in his Direct Examination testified to the effect that at no time common conferences were held between the chiefs of the Main Offices, and that neither in Himmler's presence nor in his absence. Is that suggestion correct?
A. Generally speaking, yes. However, there might have been one or two exceptions where out of the twelve main chiefs, perhaps two or at most three of them might have been together. Otherwise, as I already stated before conferences of the Main Office chiefs did not take place, at least not according to my knowledge.
Q. And did all these Main Office chiefs, that is, all twelve of them, come together? That never occurred according to Oswald Pohl, did it?
A. Conferences --- never did occur. It was only that once or twice a year all the Gruppen and Obergruppenguehrer of the SS met for some sort of a meeting. Those were not Main Office chiefs meetings but only on representative occasions. For instance, on the Party day, the day of the 9th of November; the day of the establishment of the Party, in February. In other words, all those general meetings. But they were not connected with official conferences.
Q. What were the tasks of the WVHA, generally speaking, in the main part? What were their connections to the concentration camps before March 1942? Can you tell us something about that?
A. The tasks of the WVHA, was the highest level of administrative, authority for the Allgemeine SS, and for the Waffen SS. The WVHA dealt with all the questions of the State, the Economy, of the Army economy, and all the construction questions, except, according to my knowledge, the two main offices, security police and order police who had their own central offices of administration which carried out the same functions, as, for instance, the WVHA compared with the remainder of the SS. Apart from that, the WVHA, there were also the socalled Economic Enterprises which had to be taken care of and led. The tasks were only of an administrative nature.
Q. Did the WVHA have the opportunity to take any kind of executive measures, particularly such measures of a police and State police nature, and did they have the necessary agents for that?
A. According to my opinion the WVHA had no legal and police possibilities to carry out executive measures, nor did they have any police agents at their disposal, because their tasks were simply administrative ones, such of administrative character.
Q. Which Main offices were the only ones that had those agents? Was it the RSHA?
A. Yes, it was the RSHA.
Q. A part of the RSHA was the Gestapo, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And the General Police?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it correct if I say that the RSHA only was in a position, out of State Police reasons, to send persons to concentration camps?
A. Yes, that statement is correct.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I object to Dr. Seidl putting leading questions to this witness. I think that this witness is one of the few people who is completely informed on practically every matter of the SS. He is a witness who can speak with a good deal of authority on details of the SS and there is no need whatever for Dr. Seidl to suggest answers. The witness is perfectly competent to give us his own description of the organization.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, it is quite proper to suggest the subject you wish the witness to answer about, but not to suggest the answer. I think you know the difference. Will you please watch it carefully?
DR. SEIDL: The objection made by the Prosecution is correct itself, and I simply asked this kind of question in order to shorten the matter.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't shorten the matter by telling the witness what to say.
MR. ROBBINS: Exactly, Your Honor. I would like to say for the record, when it comes to a matter like this, time can well be spent in letting the witness explain the answer himself.
Q Witness, which was the office that had to decide about the release from the concentration camps?
A The decision of an application for release from a concentration camp was the Reichssicherheitshaptamt, that is the Reichs security Main Office was competent.
Q Was the WVHA, that is to say, the defendant Pohl, by himself without the approval of the RSHA able to release a prisoner from the camp?
A No.
Q Which was the agency which was the highest organization, according Himmlers order at 3 March 1943, particularly for the concentration camps and who was in charge of that agency?
A The highest organizational level was the Inspectorate of the concentration camps which until the outbreak of the war in 1939 was lead first by Eicke and then by Gluecks.
Q Where was the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps, I mean, what town?
A The Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps was in Oranienburg.
Q On Himmler's order of the 3d of March, 1943, the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camp was incorporated into the WVHA as Amtsgruppe D. I ask you now, witness, what were the reasons that compelled the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler to carry out this reorganization?
A During the Russian campaign the dream of the German BlitzWars and Blitz victories had become nothing but mere dust. The concentration of all the labor which was available in Germany had become necessary in order now to be able to seize the inmates who were in the concentration camps and to put them to a good use. The Reichsfuehrer SS assigned Oswald Pohl the entire assignment of these inmates for labor and also economic questions connected with that duty as a basis of a resolve. The Reichsfuehrer in expectation of those ministerial difficulties he wanted to give as high as possible a representative for these ministerial sections, in other words, a Main Office Chief according to his rank and according to his troop origin, in other words military origin. Gluecks did not appear quite sufficient to him, for this reasons.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess
THE MARSHALL: Tribunal is in recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again is session.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, before the recess we had been talking about and I had asked you the question, what reasons caused the Reichsfuehrer-SS to have ordered on 3 March 1943 the incorporation of the Inspectorate of the concentration camps into the WVHA as Amtsgruppe D. I ask you to continue to answer this question?
A. I believe I thought I had already answered the question to its fullest extent. Apparently the reason was we tried to find out for the Administry itself who was to be Chief of the Main Office, and what economic knowledge he was supposed to have. These extensive prerequisites did not fulfill the requisites of Gluecks.
Q. Did this organizational incorporation of the Inspectorate of the concentration camp into the WVHA have its results, to the extent that Pohl as Chief of WVHA was to have the responsibility in all matters pertaining to the concentration camps?
A. No.
MR. ROBBINS: I think it is extremely important, Your Honor, in this case and on this ground alone that Dr. Seidl ask the witness to explain his answer to a question, and have Dr. Seidl not to suggest the answers to the witness. I can not emphasize the importance too much in this case of applying that rule to this witness, because as I have said before, if we are to get a true picture from this witness, which he can give us, I think that Dr. Seidl should not continue to lead the witness.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, I previously admitted that I have asked the witness leading questions in the interest of speeding up this trial. But I can not see in which way this question is a leading question.
THE PRESIDENT: I have heard this before, it seems to me. Isn't this the same story we had about an hour ago, and an objection was made, that your questions were leading and you admitted they were leading and said you would not do it again, and here we are right back again.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, I do not have the impression I am asking leading questions at this time. I asked the witness, what effect did the subordination of the Inspectorate of the concentration camps into the WVHA had on the remaining matters pertaining to the camps with regard to the defendant Pohl?
THE PRESIDENT: That was not the question. That is different from the other question. All right, let's go ahead, and I say at the same time that you to do it in a proper way, let this witness tell you the answer instead of the reverse.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, you have heard the question?
A. May I ask you to repeat the question once more in a proper form, so that I may answer it in the same proper manner.
THE PRESIDENT: Good.
THE WITNESS: Which I am only unable to do but which I would like to do.
THE PRESIDENT: Remember what he said, in a proper form.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, what effect did the subordination of the organization in the incorporation of the Inspectorate of the concentration camps into the WVHA have with regard to the administration of these camps?
A. The labor allocation of prisoners now was more uniformly controlled, that was the idea of the assignment, which I believe I have already stated in the information which I have given before.
Q. Which Agency was handling the other administrative matters of the concentration camps?
A. The Inspectorate of the concentration camps of which I already said in answer to a previous question, that it was the top organizational level which had its won personnel administration, and its own personnel department, and its own legal agencies, according to a desire of the Reichsfuehrer Pohl was only to be above the matter, he had only to take care of the administrative aspects and the economic aspects.
Q. Through this order of Himmler did anything change in the independence of the Inspectorate of the concentration camps?
A. Independence in the organizational chart, whenever you look at it on the paper the answer is yes. In practice, however, the RSHA and the Reichsfuehrer-SS, as before; the old practice continued the same, giving direct orders as had been done for years, to give direct orders to the Inspectorate of the concentration camps.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, when you mentioned economic matters that Pohl was to administer, what did you mean when you said, "Economic matters of the concentration camps"?
THE WITNESS: I am referring to all the question of labor allocation of prisoners, of food, and the administration of the so called economic enterprises.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, was the WVHA a big authority or was it a smaller main office?
A. The WVHA was a very large authority. Sofar as I know it had more than a thousand, approximately, about fifteen-hundred employees and collaborators in its organization. Therefore, it was not easy to administer, and it was very hard not to overlook things, and particularly details. It was very complicated.
Q. Was Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl in view of the face of this agency, was he able to handle the details or did he have to limit this in the issuance of general directives and instructions?
A. He could only lead it on a larger scale and from case to case whenever something seemed very important, and the time permitted it then he could also take care of individual cases. However, the large number of tasks, as the defense counsel could describe better than I could, kept him from constantly going into details, because of the lack of time.
Q. At the same time when the Inspectorate of the concentration camps was incorporated into the WVHA, Sauckel was appointed Plenipotentiary General for labor allocation. Now I shall ask you, did this task have anything to do with the concentration camps, and where were these foreign workers billeted?
A. The actions for the conscription of workers, which was carried out by Sauckel, procured the workers for the so called prisoner allocation of labor within the armament industry or in the German agriculture. The foreign workers who had been conscripted by Sauckel from foreign countries, or from the occupied territories were put into their own quarters. In part they were billeted in barracks, or then in kaserns. They were able to go whenever they wanted to, and they could not in any way be compared to concentration camp prisoners.
Q. Within this trial the so called "Action Reinhardt" has played a very important part. I now ask you when did you for the first time here of this "Action Reinhardt." Did Himmler ever discuss this operation with you, or were you not informed by any men of his chief offices of this action?
A. That the "Action Reinhardt" ever existed, and above all under the name of Reinhardt, I have only heard here in Nurnberg. Of the terrible exterminations of Jews, and other exterminations in the camps which was carried out at Lublin and Auschwitz I heard for the first time on 19 March 1945, when I came to Switzerland in order to handle the capitulation negotiations there at the time. At the time I was in Switzerland my Swiss friends gave me Switzerland newspapers, and showed me with horror of the first reports that bore atrocities in that form as carried out in the concentration camp of Lublin, which had been published in the papers.
Himmler himself never discussed these things with me and in my opinion he never discussed them with any other main office chief or with any other person who was not directly needed as an active collaborator for the execution of this most terrible program of all times. We know the Fuehrer's order which states explicitly and which was issued long years before -- that is, I believe, when the plans for the planned western offensive in 1940 were lost. This order stated that nobody should obtain more knowledge of any important assignment and that he should not be informed of it earlier than was actually required by him to carry out this assignment.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, it is only fair to state to you that this member of the Tribunal listens with a great deal of skepticism to your statement that you did not know of the extermination program until March 1945. It is rather difficult for me to understand how a person of your intelligence, with your high position, and occupying the intimate association that you did with Himmler, being his adjutant, not to know of this program which could not have been executed without a great deal of coordination and a great mass of executants.
A. First of all, I can assure Your Honor that the testimony which I have made is fully correct, and for its veracity, in order to remove the due skepticism of Your Honor, I can only add that I myself did not participate in it, that I could not have assisted the Reichsfuehrer SS in the least in carrying out this extermination program. May I also point out that with the outbreak of the war, on 1 September 1939, I left the immediate vicinity of the Reichsfuehrer SS. At that time I entered the staff of the Fuehrer, so that, apart from several exceptions, I was almost constantly separated from the Reichsfuehrer SS.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, the Fuehrer, Hitler himself, could scarcely be regarded as a great lover of the Jews. You say you did not hear any of these programs discussed in Himmler's headquarters because you were at Hitler's headquarters.
A. Yes, but in Hitler's headquarters this matter was still less discussed.
Neither the Fuehrer nor the Reichsfuehrer SS ever talked to us about an extermination program of the Jews.
May I perhaps make an additional statement. I would like you to consider that I, as liaison officer and as the first general of the Waffen SS, was with the Fuehrer only for the tasks concerning the Waffen SS and not as liaison officer for the Security Police assignments. I was never a general in the police. I was never an officer in the police, and after, in the First World War, I had become a professional officer of the guard, I did not now want to become a police officer, but again I wanted to become a line officer.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. Proceed, Dr. Seidl.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Taking it for granted that Himmler gave the order for the extermination of these people in the concentration camps, through what channels and through what executives would these orders ordinarily have been carried out?
A. I don't know if I can start frog the point of a normal form, Your Honor, as Your Honor mentioned, because the order itself is so abnormal and so inhuman that I believe it is a false conclusion, but in order to answer the question of Your Honor, I would like to point out that the Reichsfuehrer SS would have discussed it with the Chief of the Security Police normally, and the technical details of execution would have been agreed upon between them, and then this terrible secret would have been limited to a minimum, that is, the circle of persons participating in this terrible program.
Q. Wouldn't you assume that the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps would know something about it?
A. It is very difficult to answer this question in an off-hand manner. If I am correctly informed, I know from newspapers which I have seen in the meantime that Himmler would have informed the commander of the concentration camps, Hoess of Auschwitz and Globocnick of Lublin, that he would have told them to come and see him, and he personally would have given them this assignment, and he would have made the worst threats to them in case they did not keep this official secret.
Q. Well, if the WVHA had charge of the allocation of all the labor in the concentration camps, which you say is true, and the economic administration of the inmates, don't you think that if the evidence is true that over 3,000,000 people were exterminated that would make a difference so great that they would have to know something about it in order to properly allocate the labor?
A. Your Honor, please consider that I have the greatest interest in achieving a complete verification, not only in the interest of the non-criminal part of the SS of our innocence, but also of our guilt. But I know--
Q. This Tribunal wants to find the truth, that is all. That is what we are trying to do right now, to find the truth about this.
A. Yes. I can only say that in my conviction and as far as my knowledge goes the Reichsfuehrer SS probably - and I can only assume that - in order to give my conviction to the best of my knowledge and belief - the Reichsfuehrer SS would not have discussed the details with the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps. Whether and at what period of time the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps, in the course of the execution, might have obtained knowledge of these problems, that, of course, I cannot judge myself because at that period of time I was not there anymore, but was already in Italy.
Q. I was merely asking you because you are familiar with all the channels and are familiar with the offices and set-up of the WVHA, the duties and responsibilities, and also you are familiar with the orders that Himmler gave in regard to matters that he wanted them to carry out. That is the reason I was asking you, more or less as an expert on this subject, that if you did not, in your mind, have the opinion and be satisfied that in a matter of that large a scale the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps would have to know something about it.
A. May I ask once more what Your Honor would like to know now in addition to what I have already stated?
Q. I am frank to tell you I did not understand the translation I got of your answer to my former question, just the preceding question to the last one.
A. Could I ask the interpreter to give me the question once more.
(Question repeated in German by the interpreter.)
A. I can only repeat once more that I am not a specialist in matters pertaining to the WVHA, but I know only in large outline the normal sphere of work which is generally known to me. I have stated that this assignment for the extermination of Jews was something quite abnormal. It was so far outside the experiences which had accumulated in years that it is extremely difficult for me to answer such an important question which has been asked by Your Honor.
I can only repeat once more what I have said before. I believe that the Reichsfuehrer would first of all have discussed this matter with the Chief of the Security Police, and that he would have discussed with him the technical execution, and he would have discussed it with the smallest possible circle and limited it to that circle. However I can only support myself on assumptions in this case, and I do not know if the Reichsfuehrer as perhaps regarding Gluecks consulted him, and if the Reichsfuehrer discussed this matter with Brigadefuehrer Gluecks and told him of this secret. I said I don't know. I consider it improbable for this primary stage. However, I believe that the inspectorate, in the course of the execution of these things, has or probably at the conclusion of this operation has, obtained knowledge at that time.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, when did you go to Italy?
A. On the 9th of September, 1943, after I had been sick for six months before, and as I already stated during the Milch trial, I was operated on at Hohenlychen, Karsvad, and Gastein, and I was convalescing there.
Q. Were you a member of the circle of Himmler's friends?
A. Yes, or to express it more clearly in cases where Himmler was prevented from attending, I personally participated in the monthly conferences of the industrial circle of friends of the Reichsfuehrer, and I repeatedly or let us say often attended these conferences as his representative or representative, deputy of the Reichsfuehrer-SS, and I attended the dinners.
Q. Well, never mind, that is going too far afielf. Did you hear the speech of Himmler at Posen?
A. No, I did not hear that speech.
Q. Did you hear the speech at Posen in October, 1943?
A. No, because at that time I was already in Italy.
Q. Yes, and you didn't hear about it in Italy?
A. No, this speech was not distributed to the leaders who were at the front.
Q. Well, did you ever hear about Russians and Poles, who were not Jews, being exterminated and killed, did you ever hear about that?
A. No, I have never heard anything about extermination. I know that in the case of combatting partisans, and in cases of attempts at life harsh measures were taken and people would be shot, but what your Honor is probably referring to is systematic and planned extermination
Q. Exactly, exactly. Did you ever hear about that?
A. No. before the war
Q. This is the first time?
A. Please?
Q. This is the first you ever heard about it?
A. After the captitulation I was reproached with that, and I was asked about it, and that is when I heard it for the first time.
Q. Oh. Do you believe it happened?
A. That the extermination actually took place?
Q. Yes.
A. I have no proof of the fact. However, I fear that extermination was carried out on a large scale.
Q. You are inclined to believe it then; you don't think it is propaganda?
A. No. I regret to have to confirm to you that today I am of the opinion that exterminations were actually carried out without our knowledge.
Q. Have you any idea of the extent of the exterminations?
A. No I have heard of figures from two to twenty millions according to the papers which brought the news. In my experience I have never found anyone, even of my interrogators or judges, who could give me an exact figure.