He wanted to live in his favorite castle peacefully.
Q. One more question about the way money was raised by Klein as you mentioned before. Would Klein, had he refused to put the money at the disposal of Bartels have been able to avoid the construction being carried out?
A. No, Bartels would have referred that to the Reichsfuehrer and Klein would then have been charged with sabotaging an order by the Reichsfuehrer and he would have been punished somewhat heavily.
Q. Now another topic about Wewelsburg. Do you know who the workers were who worked there; you wanted to start about that earlier?
A. I know that in peacetime skilled work was carried out by firms which had been contacted through the usual methods of free economy. It was regarded as an honorary work for the manual work, the earth,work. The Reich Labor Service sent a detachment led by a man called Zimmermann.
Q. So therefore inmates were not used from the outset?
A. No. No.
Q. Do you know who ordered for the first time that inmates should be used in Wewelsburg and when that occurred?
A. What I know is that when Wewelsburg was inspected by Eicke and the Reichsfuehrer and when he became aware of the shortage skilled workers caused by the war, he offered to the Reichsfuehrer to put a small number of well famed skilled workers, mainly, I think Jehovah's witnesses, at the disposal of the Reichsfuehrer in order to have this work carried out during the brief duration of the war, as we believed then.
Q. And you said just now at the beginning of the war. When was that, roughly?
A. -- I believe it was the beginning of the war, I believe in 1940.
Q. Do you know that inmates were used to an increased degree by order and when this happened, roughly?
A. As I remember, the extension to several hundreds of inmates -- it might have been between 350 and 450 inmates -- came in 1940 to 1941.
Q. Do you happen to know who ordered this at the time?
A. It would be saying too much that I know it, but as I recall, it was the Reichsfuehrer who gave the order.
Q. Do you know that Bartels in order to speed up this work insisted with Himmler that more inmates should be used?
A. Yes.
Q. Then finally there is the camp of inmates which existed there and was that camp under the orders of the Defendant Klein?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who was the camp commandant of the inmates camp at Wewelsburg?
A. Yes, that was Hauptsturmfuehrer Haas.
Q. Who was his superior officer?
A. As far as I know, the Inspector of the concentration camps.
Q. Did the Defendant Klein have the right to issue any orders to this camp commandant?
A. No.
Q. Did Klein have any influence on labor allocation of inmates as far as the building was concerned?
A. No.
Q. Where was the camp situated on the site?
A. At first, when it was small, it was situated near the hills, the wooded hills, close by the castle, between the castle and the situation of Wewelsburg. When it grew it was transferred to the Boettigen estate, which belonged to Herr von Mallingrod.
Q. Therefore, it was at some distance from the building program when it had grown?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever inspect the camp at Wewelsburg?
A. Yes, accompanying the Reichsfuehrer, I went through this camp.
Q. What was your impression of that camp?
A. The same impression which I described to the Tribunal in the Milch Trial. The inmates at that time were well fed. Food was adequate. We even talked to some of the inmates. We asked them and I remember that the inmates had a certain number of spaces at their disposal and where they raised fresh vegetables, potatoes and other food to improve their food supplies.
Q. And when was that inspection?
A. I think it must have been in the Spring of 1941.
Q. Was Klein present by any chance?
A. I am unable to say that for certain.
DR. FIGHT: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination by defense counsel?
Mr. Robbins, you may cross-examine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. General, before we get too far away from Wewelsburg, I should like to tell you that a part of the proof in this case consists of the testimony of an SS man about the conditions at Wewelsburg.
A. I am so sorry. I have not hear one word of the German translation.
INTERPRETER: I expect, Your Honor, he is not on Channel 3 as he should be.
WITNESS: I can hear now.
Q. General, I say before we get too far away from Wewelsburg, I should like to tell you that a part of the proof in this case consists of the testimony about the conditions in Wewelsburg. He says about five hundred inmates were working there under the defendant Klein and that Haas, whom you mentioned, was subordinate to Kleim and that many inmates were worked to death in the construction there. He says that the causes of the death of the prisoners in Wewelsburg were malnutrition; they were not given enough food; they were willfully worked to death in the quarry, in the pebble detachment; and (3) the extermination of prisoners who were unpopular, by order of the defendant Klein and Haas. Did you hear about those conditions?
A. The conditions just described by the prosecution I heard nothing about; and at least as far as the periods of which I have knowledge that is until 1941 myself are concerned, I am compelled to call these things completely untrue. I'm sure that it is quite easy to contradict this statement by a prisoner.
Q. General, I'm not talking about the description by the prosecution. This is a description by an SS man who was there on the spot. If an SS man said that, it probably happened, didn't it? You don't doubt the veracity of an SS man, do you?
A. It is quite possible to have among one million SS men a few sons of bitches, (Schweinehund). I don't know the motives of this SS man. Neither do I know his name. But I feel quite sure that a description which is so fantastically untrue in all its basic features would be easily contradicted. It would be child's play to contradict this statement if only I knew the name of this inmate and if this prisoner were brought here. If, for instance, the attorney of Klein would find out the prisoner's data, his criminal record, and so forth, then it would become clear what his motives were in making this statement, which is not only an exaggeration but a typical distortion.
Q. This testimony was given by SS man Heinrich Reinhold Kurt Wilhelm Schwarz.
The SS didn't take in people with criminal records, did they?
A. Not generally speaking. But this is what I want to say. The reputation, the judgment of the man's personality, his personal background, his native village, and all that, the profession from which he joined the SS-also I would like to hear what his comrades in the SS would think about him -
Q. He is talking about a period in April 1942. Were you in Wewelsburg at that time?
A. I have not seen my diaries for two years; I have not seen my adjutant nor my secretary. I have been cut off from anything which would support my memory. Therefore, I can say something only according to my knowledge and belief. I do not believe, however, that in 1942 I visited Wewelsburg. My last visit, I think, must have been in 1941 because in 1942 I was in the Ukraine with the Fuehrer near Winnitza.
Q. Yes, I think that's right. So from you own personal knowledge you can't exclude the possibility that the description of this SS man is correct since you weren't there; is that right?
A. I cannot guarantee how the internal conditions in Wewelsburg developed after my last visit there; but I am absolutely able from my long and detailed knowledge of Klein to guarantee fully that he cannot have been responsible for these things because it was not part of his duties; and it would not have been in accordance with the organization of the WNHA.
Q. It wasn't a part of his duties, was it, to starve people to death or work them to death? That wasn't part of his duties, was it?
A. No, no.
Q. You tell me that these conditions are fantastic? Is this the first time that you have ever heard that inmates were worked to death in the SS economic enterprises?
A. After the surrender and now in connection with these trials, I have heard about this, that is to say, from the book of Kogon which I read.
Please don't blame me if I don't have a very high opinion of the probative value of this book. I think it is a distorted document. His knowledge -
Q. Excuse me. You don't doubt today, do you, that inmates were worked to death in the quarries and in the economic enterprises of the SS?
A. At this time I have been unable to form an impression. I was told this. It was put to me. I saw it in the papers and heard it on the wireless, read it and heard about it. Far be it from me to regard it as my task to spared doubts about the fact that in concentration camps, above all in the middle of the war, outrageous conditions arose. But one should not forget in this connection that even Kogon admits that -
Q. We'll go into that a bit later.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): General, why don't you answer Mr. Robbins' questions directly? He has stated very specifically that you don't doubt today after all this evidence which has come to your attention in the way of reports, letters, and affidavits you don't doubt that there were excesses and that people were actually worked to death in the labor camps. You don't doubt that today, do you? That is the question which Mr. Robbins put.
A. I do not doubt that to a certain extent these things occurred; but of the real extent I am unable to form a judgment because nobody has submitted any proven evidence to me.
THE TRIBUNAL (Judge Musmanno) Very well.
A. Interrogators told me this, and I have to take their word for it.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. And you don't have any doubts, do you, General, that people died from undernourishment in concentration camps?
A. I do not doubt that.
Q. It is not fantastic, though, is it, to assume that they did?
A. No, because German prisoners of war also did after the surrender.
Q. General, I should like to go back to a more pleasant subject. You held a very high and important position in German life; and I'm not satisfied that Dr. Seidl completely brought out the full significance of the important position that you hold. So I should like to go back over a few of those details, if you please; and I would like to ask you about the nature of these different positions and the duties and functions which you carried out in those positions, as well as the dates when you held those positions. I believe you told us that you were the highest SS and Police leader in Italy. Will you tell us what that was about?
A. My rank as the highest SS and Police Leader in Italy entailed the task of providing law and order, security and peaceful working conditions in the rear of the army area, at the back of the German Southern front, which was involved in very heavy fighting at the time.
Q. Is a highest SS and Police Leader something different from a Higher SS and Police Leader?
A. Yes. First of all the name, the superlative "highest", shows that it is the highest rank in that department. Moreover, the prosecution should take into consideration the fact that there is a distinction between the Highest Police and SS Leader in occupied territory outside Germany and a Highest SS and Police Leader in Germany itself. These are two distinct positions, and tasks are equally distinct.
Q. As a Highest SS and Police Leader, who was your immediate superior?
A. The Reich Fuehrer SS.
Q. You were assigned to the Duce in Italy. Will you tell us what functions you carried out there?
A. I was assigned to the Duce as a consultant in police matters. The overthrow of the Duce and his capture on 25 July 1943 showed that the Italian security police and the famous 150 Musketeers of the Duce, his personal, well-proven bodyguards-failed -
Q. Excuse me. I must have misunderstood you. In your assignment as liaison officer to the Duce, it wasn't a part of your duties to capture the Italian forces, was it, or to negotiate their surrender? Continue with your answer.
A. I believe there is a misunderstanding here. What I want to say is this. I just wanted to describe my duties with the Duce. I'm quite willing to follow the prosecution's idea that as to the Duce's personal security, his life, I was responsible for these things to the Fuehrer and the Reichfuehrer. My second assignment was to advise him when he re-established a reliable Fascist security police and when he also formed the new police, regular police, both based on the example of the SS.
Q. In this position who was your superior?
A. In this position the Reichsfuehrer SS was my superior and my highest superior, of course, the Fuehrer.
Q. During what period of time did you hold this position?
A. That position I hold from the day after the so-called Badoglio surrender of 9 September 1943 until the capitulation in May 1945.
Q. And --- During what period of time did you hold the position of Highest SS and Police Leader in Italy?
A. I made a slight mistake there. In the period which I mentioned just now from the 9th of September to May 1945 I was Highest SS and Police Leader. Of course, only after the Duce was liberated from Monte Sasso I was assigned to him then. This occurred roughly in the middle of September, I think between the 16th and the 23rd of September 1943.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is in recess for 15 minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken)
MARSHALL: Military Tribunal # 2 is again in session.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. General, you were chief of the personal staff of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler. Will you tell us the nature of that staff and the nature of your duties?
A. The personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer-SS had the task of assisting the Reichsfuehrer in carrying out his numerous tasks and relieving him on some of the workload. This working staff was subdivided mainly into his personal adjutant's office, which dealt with all visitors and all appointments for him. Then there were his personal experts such as Dr. Rudolf Brandt, who is known to the Prosecutor from the medical trial and to the Tribunal too, who dealt with all his correspondence. Then there was the police adjutant's office dealing with security, police and order questions directly with the Reichsfuehrer. Then there was the Reich correspondence department which took care of files, and then there was the financial administration which disposed of funds which he received, either from the party or from the state, and finally he had a main department dealing with guests and invitations he sent out, as well as decorations and there was the personnel department. In addition to that there were a number of officers attached to his personal staff which from the organization point of view could not be placed in any other main department, or which were particularly close to the Reichsfuehrer-SS, and whom he wanted in his vicinity.
Would this description of the tasks be sufficient for the Prosecutor, or do you want me to go into further details? For instance, would you like me to describe what the raw materials office handled and why that raw material department was attached to the personal staff and to me, and not, as one might assume, come under the WVHA, where one would assume it to be?
Q. No, that is adequate. This was a main office in the Reich Leadership SS, was it not?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. And you were chief of the main office?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. During what period of time were you chief of the personal staff of Himmler?
A. It was in the summer of 1936 that I became the chief of the Hauptamt and chief of the personal staff. Before that I was only chief adjutant, and in my position as chief adjutant I had no disciplinary and command authority of my own, but only the task of transmitting the wishes and orders from my chief to other agencies. The promotion to the level of the highest responsibilities in the SS, that of department chief, which was even higher than the Higher SS Leaders and leaders in the SS, meant that I had authority to give orders of my own.
Q. Excuse me, until what date did you hold this position as chief of the personal staff?
A. Until the 18th of February, 1943. In practice entirely and as a main task only to the outbreak of the war, 1st of September, 1939, because with the outbreak of the war I entered into the Fuehrer Headquarters as liaison officer of the Waffen SS to the Fuehrer, and I could only handle that as a sideline.
Q. You received mail during the year 1942 at the ReichsfuehrerSS personal staff, did you not? You received mail addressed to you in care of the personal staff of Himmler?
A. I received such matters in the headquarters and such mail addressed to me as had been ordered by the Reichsfuehrer to be dealt with. Other matters bypassed me.
Q. Just for my own information, was there another person on the personal staff of Himmler by the name of Wolf, who spelled his name W-o-l-f, a single "f"? Do you know such a person?
A. I only recollect that temporarily a stenographer, or some female employee had been Gisela Wolf with one "f", but at the moment I cannot recollect any other person with one "f".
Q. You are presently a British prisoner of war?
A. Please?
Q. Are you presently a British prisoner of war?
A. Yes, I am at the moment a British prisoner of war, quite.
Q. Is it true that you made a request during the trial, the I. M.T. proceedings, to take Himmler's place in that trial?
A. Yes, a year ago.
Q. Yes, and that was because you had extensive knowledge, was it not, of Himmler's activities? Just answer yes or no.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Witness, we have heard quite a lot in this trial about the Fuehrer Prinzip. I think you are in a very good position to tell us just what that principle was.
A. May I point out to you that the last parts of the translation have been most distorted, and therefore I couldn't quite answer the questions. Maybe you could have them repeated slowly and clearly.
Q. Are you familiar with the Fuehrer Prinzip?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. I believe you are in an excellent position, General, to tell us the meaning and the significance of that principle. Would you do so?
A. Yes. The Fuehrer principle embodies entire responsibility on the part of an individual person and has far-reaching possibilities. of decision. A reasonable leader is a leader personality, conscious of his highest duties as a trustee for his people, of the unit he leads, and who also, in the case of increasing successes will remain within his boundaries. It is a most wonderful thing which one can prove by means of historical events, not only in the past, but also in the present.
Q. General, I just want a factual description of the principle, and I don't care for a characterization of it. Just tell me how it operated in practice.
A. The German Fuehrer principle, as far as I am able to describe to you the answer to such a difficult question off-hand, which is really a doctor's thesis, continued up to the Sudeten German case, and it meant to us in Germany an excellent and successful function since generally speaking upon the seizure of power we had seven million unemployed.
Q. Excuse me, I am afraid you don't understand my question. Just tell me how the principle operated, what it meant in practice, what it meant in terms of responsibility of the subordinates to the superior. I don't care to know about whether it was successful or unsuccessful. Just give me a factual description of the principle.
A. The principle would emphasize an individual personality within the framework of a state or its armed forces who carries full responsibility before his followers and subordinates.
Q. And it meant absolute responsibility and absolute power, is that right?
A. It required absolute responsibility, yes, power, yes, and the possibility to transmit one's will into facts.
Count No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Would you say that the entire Reich government was organized on this principle?
A I know that the Reich government was based upon that principle, yes.
Q And would you say that the SS was organized on that principle?
A Of course.
Q And the Reich leadership of the SS was organized on that principle?
A The Reichsfuehrer SS was also, of course, based upon that principle, yes.
Q I forgot to ask you, General, on the seniority list of Obergruppenfuehrers, do you recall where you ranked; you ranked pretty high, didn't you--on the seniority list of Obergruppenfuehrers?
A Yes, but might I ask the interpreter to speak less loudly because the microphone is reverberating to such an extent that, for instance, I couldn't understand the last question with absolute certainty. May I repeat your question in order to show if I understood it correctly? I think you asked whether in the list of ranks of the SS I occupied a very high rank and a very great seniority. The answer is yes, I did.
Q Do you recall where in the rank of seniority you were listed, approximately; what was it? Tenth, eleventh?
A That was a little too low... It is very difficult. I understood your question to be: "Do you remember the number which you held on the seniority list?" Was that your question?
Q Yes. How many people were ahead of you on the seniority list of Obergruppenfuehrers?
A The list of Obergruppenfuehrers was principally composed according to the day of appointment, but that doesn't reflect the actual rank and position, only the day of commissioning. To my recollection, on the last list of leaders, I was approximately under "37."
But in reality, according to my position I ought to have been farther ahead since all honorary Reich leaders and Reich ministers and such came ahead of me.
Q You know that the WVHA was a Main Office in the Reich leadership SS? Do you not --
A I couldn't understand. You knew what?
Q The WVHA was a Main Office?
A Correct. The WVHA was a main office of the SS--one of twelve, in fact.
Q And do you know that it was divided into five Amptsgruppen or office groups?
A Well, the organization in detail is only known to me rather generally, but not so accurately that I could state it here under oath as to its details. I mean, I think there were about five Amptsgruppen.
Q I am only asking you for the best of your recollection on this. You have seen tables of organization in your office of the WVHA, have you not?
A It is possible, in fact probable, that at some time or other it passed through my office, yes.
Q Will you look at the chart on the wall, please, to refresh your recollection generally about the organization of the WVHA? And I would point out that there was a mistake in the construction of the chart in that Amtsgruppe A is not intended to be shown as superior to B, C, D and W, or that B is superior to C, D and W. I just point that out for your own information. You know also, General, that each office group or each Amtsgruppe was divided into offices or Amts.
A I know that each Amtsgruppe was subdivided, yes.
Q And you know, do you not, that the WVHA handled the budget, treasury, finance, payroll, procuring of funds, and auditing for certain departments of the SS?
A Well, I haven't been trained as an administrative leader.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
My knowledge deals with practical experience of many years which only covers the large-scale organization--not the observation of detail.
Q Well, you know generally that the WVHA handled the budget for the SS, don't you?
A I don't hear a thing.
DR. SEIDL: I just wanted to point out, Your Honor, that the difficulties in translation are apparently due to the fact that next to the voice of the interpreter there is some static noise coming over the channel, and maybe it might be possible to rectify this technical deficiency.
THE PRESIDENT: Try it again, Mr. Robbins.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q You know generally, don't you, that the WVHA handled the budget for the SS?
A Yes, I do.
Q You also know that Amtsgruppe A was in charge of the budget and finances, don't you?
A To my knowledge, yes.
Q Now, who in Amtsgruppe A handled the budget and treasury? What person--for the SS?
A May I ask to have the question repeated once again by the interpreter? (Question repeated) To my knowledge it was Obergruppenfuehrer Frank.
Q You also know that this Amtsgruppe handled the budget and financing of the concentration camps, do you not?
A Well, that is going into detail to a considerable extent. As far as I know the dividing line of districts are as follows--
Q Excuse me, do you know that, or don't you know it? That Amtsgruppe handled-
AAll I know is that it would be better to say that he, on a ministerial level, had to give the general instructions for the sphere of work, where on the provincial level the same was handled by Court No. II, Case No. 4.the subordinate offices.
Q You know that Amtsgruppe W was in charge of the economic enterprises of the WVHA, do you not?
A I just heard something about scientific... By scientific do you mean economic? Oh, I see--economic. To the best of my knowledge the answer is yes.
Q Well, you are pretty sure about it, aren't you. You have given us a good deal of detail about several of the individual office chiefs a few moments ago. Yon know who had control of the -
Isn't it coming through? (To Interpreter)
INTERPRETER: It is coming through but the interpreter's voice is practically inaudible to the witness. It is being repeatedly distorted.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute, Mr. Robbins. (To Interpreter) Are you checking it?
INTERPRETER: It is being checked but I don't know how far it's got with it. We should like to try it again, please.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q General, I ask you who in the WVHA supervised the economic enterprises, the SS industries--what amt? What Amtsgruppe, first.
A I regret that I can't give any information to the Prosecutor about such far-reaching details.
Q Well, General, I am astonished; on Direct Examination you gave us the most minute details about even an individual office chief, several of them; in some cases about office chiefs in W. How is it that you can't recall now what Amtsgruppe W, the entire office, did?
WITNESS: Might I ask the High Tribunal for one thing and ask the interpreter not take this personally, but since in such important questions the correct answer is of the greatest importance to all the defendants here, I should be obliged if somehow a replacement could be made so that I could understand the voice more correctly. In the entire previous session yesterday and today, I had no difficulty. I don't know whether it is my personal error or whether it was the voice of the translator -- interpreter's voice -- but it is a tremendous handicap.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you all having difficulty?
It is very important that the witness understand exactly what the question is. If he can't hear it, we shouldn't put him under that handicap. Apparently, the defect in the transmission system, whatever it is, cannot be rectified in a moment, especially because we can't find the electrician and the Signal Officer to do it. I see no alternative at this time except to recess at this time and reconvenue at 1:30. We will recess.
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, may I make a request to the Tribunal. We are coming now in to a very important phase of the examination of this witness and I respectfully ask that he be instructed not to speak to any defense counsel about his testimony. I make that request without casting as aspersions on any one, but I think it is very important that answers not be suggested. Your Honor, I think it is quite different from the case of a defendant. It might comprise depriving a defendant of the right to counsel, if he weren't allowed to talk to his counsel, but in the case of a witness, I can see that no harm whatever might be done.
THE PRESIDENT: Since the defense counsel won't have an opportunity nor have time to talk to the witness, it is a rather strange principle and I don't recall that in any part of American Jurisprudence that counsel can't talk to his own witness during the cross-examination. However, we will cross that bridge another time. Today it will be solved by counsel not having an opportunity to talk to the witness and that will protect you. Sooner or later we are going to have to meet this question and I suggest to you there must be some authority for you to base this on before the Tribunal would accede to it. I have never heard of a witness being sequestered from the counsel who calls him merely because cross-examination is interrupted, and we should be very deliberate in attempting any such instruction.
MR. ROBBINS: Very well, Your Honor, I will prepare an oral or written argument on the point. I think that Wigmore supports me in that position and sites cases to that effect, It is certainly not unusual in the case of witnesses. I think it is not unusual.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right. We'll take one point at a time. We will recess until 1:30.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 1:30.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
KARL WOIFF - RESUMED CROSS EXAMINATION - CONTINUED BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, before the recess we were talking about the SS industries, the economic enterprises under the WVHA, and I asked you what Amtsgruppen in the WVHA supervised these industries.
A The economic enterprises of the SS were, as far as I know, administered and supervised by Amtsgruppe W, which in turn was supervised by Gruppenfuehrer Pohl, as far as I remember, in 1942.
Q You have told us that Pohl was a very busy man, which he undoubtedly was. Pohl himself could not supervise all of the hundreds of industries that were in Amtsgruppe W. Who in Amtsgruppe W carried out the supervision?
AAs far as I can remember, he had a deputy for that purpose.
Q And he had a staff?
A Yes, he had a staff or under him there were the various offices, the spheres of which have been touched upon by the various Defense Counsel and about which I can for that reason, give very exhaustive information on because I myself dealt with these people, such as Klein and Mummenthey.
Q And do you know that it was the function of Staff W to supervise these industries, these workshops, the enterprises?
AAs far as the actual supervision, the duty to supervise is concerned, I do not know very much. All that I know is that the channel went via Gruppenfuehrer Pohl, to whom I would myself ring them up if I had an order or a wish of the Reichsfuehrer to transmit or carry out.
Q I don't mean, General, that the chiefs of staff W and the chiefs of the various Amts in Amtsgruppe W actually were at each of the plants physically supervising the work, but it was their responsibility, wasn't it, to see that the work was carried out in the industries under Court No. II, Case No. 4.their supervision?