Loerner then moved to 135-136 and Pohl moved to the Schloss Strasse which was nearby, in a building there. In other words, if I wanted to go see Pohl or Loerner or the Amtsgruppe Chiefs there I had to get out of my house, walk for a distance of approximately two to three hundred meters along that street there, and then got into the other building through a new entrance. Amtsgruppe C was in another street, entirely different street. The building of C, I could only reach the building of office C when I went through three backyards, that is leaving my house and walking through three backyards and reaching C. I would like to add at the same time that there was another agency which Kammler, K-a-m-ml-e-r, had in an entirely different sector of the city. Then in the last year and a half or so I saw Kammler very seldom with us, and he was very difficult to be reached.
Q. With the 3rd of March, 1942, the incorporation of the Inspectorates for the Concentration Camps was ordered, and if I am not wrong it became effective the 1st of May 1942. When was it that you heard about this incorporation?
A. It is difficult for me to tell you today. It could have been in the course of March. It could have also been during the first days of April. However, it was only after the 3rd of March, because this chart, which was mentioned yesterday here, I only saw that after it was printed.
Q. In other words, you did not participate in the preparations?
A. No. May I add something to this? If I had participated in this then I am sure that I would have suggested the whole chart in a different way.
Q. That incorporation, did that incorporation change anything in your tasks?
A. No.
Q. Where was it that you had the personnel files of the members of the concentration-camp services?
A. With Amtsgruppe "D".
Q. Between administrative officers and members of the concentration-camp service there must be differences, I mean differences in career.
A. Yes. Yes, there was even a special regulation about that from the personnel main office. That is to say, it was issued by order of Himmler about career regulations of the SS. On one side we had the administrative officers of the Waffen-SS, and on the entirely different side, that is to say, you compiled regulations for careers. One could see the regulations about promotions and also the career for the Special Department, of the concentration camps.
Q. And your personnel office, A-V, had nothing to do with that special group or section for concentration camps, did it?
A. No.
Q. Now, then, we could gain the impression that there is a connection of we look at this organizational chart which you have before you. That is Exhibit No. 38, and the chart number is NO-111. The field of task A-V/4 is mentioned there.
A. Well, yes, these mistakes are quite possible. However, it does say there that it was assigned to Amtsgruppe D.
Q. Did you arrange about this assignment with Amtsgruppe D, this addition which we see?
A. No. When I saw the map that is the way it was contained in there.
Q. In other words, this addition of a Sachgebiet, of the field of task, A-V/4 was carried out without your knowledge?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us what the reasons were for that?
A. Yes, today I can tell you that. At the time I couldn't find the explanation. However, now I do, and that was the reason why I at the time made checks. I had conferences with the Main Office Chief.
Q. You mean with the Defendant Pohl?
A. Yes, I wanted to inquire in how far I was to participate in that.
Q. And what was the answer which you received at the time?
A. Pohl introduced that in his chart after having conferred, with Gluecks, in order to avoid confusion in the organizational chart, and Gluecks explicitly asked for keeping his independence in all personnel questions and also that his Adjutant Harbaum, should continue to direct the Personnel Department.
Q. However, you say that you received the explicit order then not to cal with that particular field of Task A-V/4?
A. No, not at all. I never did have anything to do with it.
Q. In other words, you had the order not to deal with that, and actually never did deal with that?
A. Yes, and Gluecks would have raised hell if I had transferred even one leader or changed his position from an administrative standpoint.
Q. That order is based on an agreement between Pohl and Gluecks?
A. Yes.
Q. Which Pohl told you?
A. Yes.
Q. I would like to show you Exhibit 552 which was introduced yesterday also, that is Document NO-1923. This is a decree and you can understand where it comes from.
A. Namely from Amtsgruppe Chief D, as can be seen from the letterhead.
Q. Addressed to whom?
A. It is addressed to the commandants of the concentration camps.
Q. And under small e, on page 3 if you look through it for the main Department AV-4.
A. Yes.
Q. You have there a series of reports, which apparently concern the Concentration Camp Commandants and which were sent by the Concentration Camp Commandants to AV-4.
A. Yes.
Q. Now take a look at the report, and tell me if you in AV-4 had anything to do with those reports, factually that is?
A. No, may I say first of all I did not participate myself, that is with the distributor. If the word on the first page had anything to do with the personnel Main Office or the Personnel Office reference would have been made to it. Then, under V, there is a report about transfer free seats for wonded. That for instance is nothing but a matter for the Adjutant's office. Under paragraph 4 monthly reports from the German volunteers from the Southeast territory; no such thing was ever done in the personnel office.
Q. In other words in office A-5?
A. Yes, monthly personnel strength reports of the Kommandantur and Guard personnel. We never received any of those because the Personnel strength of the WVHA -may I take a look at the date, please, --- usually amounted to from the lowest personnel strength 600 to the highest personnel strength of approximately 1,500 or 1,800 possibly. Here I heard of personnel strengths of 30,000 and 35,000 guards. We never received such personnel strength reports.
Q. In other words we can say you had nothing to do with those things?
A. No.
Q. And from your personal knowledge of the situation would you like to say that this exhibit proves that AV-4, belonged to Office Group D?
A. Yes, it furthermore proves that they make no difference between AV-4 as personnel office and tasks II A as adjutant. Both these things are together called AV-4.
Q. You say that interpolation of AV-4 in the organizational chart was neither caused by your collaboration of that nor does it correspond to facts?
A. Yes, correct.
Q. I see. now, I find here also AU-1, AU-3. Are these terms coined by you? AV-1 transfers and releases, for example.
A. That's right; I have already mentioned that.
Q. And also AV-2 which deals with transfers and assignments and promotions.
A. Yes, the same applies to that.
Q. Therefore, we ought to be able to be in a position to say that this chart here with reference to No. AV-1 is not correct according to facts?
A. Yes, we can see that without any difficulty.
Q. In other words it is not factually correct?
A. Quite, I already expressed that in my previous interrogation.
Q. You mentioned a Herr Harbaum before that. Who is that?
A. That was Gluecks' adjutant.
Q. Now, what was his task with reference to AV-4?
A. Well Harbaum had that task before that; it was before the inspectorate was added to Glueks.
Q. Was he in charge of AV-4?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said that existed prior to that, only not under the term AV-4?
A. What term was used before - in other words if it is used II A or II B or Personnel Department, I couldn't tell you today because not everybody knew about this personnel section.
Q. In any case from point of view of field's tasks nothing changed?
A. No.
Q. Neither the Inspectorate Office group D, nor with you?
A. If anything changed in Amtsgruppe D I don't know; however in my office nothing changed.
Q. And also as far as the location of that AV-4 is concerned it was separated from your office?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was AV-4, where was it located?
A. It was located in Amtsgruppe D Oranienburg.
Q. Amtsgruppe D did not only have members of the concentration camp services but also administrative officers didn't it? How many administrative officers were there within the framework of Amtsgruppe D?
A. I can only tell you the lowest personnel strength and the highest personnel strength. There were at least 20 and at the most 30.
Q. And how many administrative officers did the Waffen SS have as a total?
A. 2,800 to 3,000.
Q. In other words the administrative officers of Amtsgruppe D amounted to about 1 per cent of total strength.
A. That is correct.
Q. When was it that these administrative officers were transferred to Amstgruppe D or Inspectorate?
A. I couldn't tell you that because this situation prevailed when the Inspector joined the WVHA.
Q. In other words these transfers took place before your official activity began?
A. Yes, of course we made transfers with me also; that is due to certain discrepancies and difficulties with these units but it would be too far reaching if I went into detail and told you all about the Military measures and particularly with reference to age group seizure and KV actions. In other words the action of those that could be used for the war if I could mention that here.
Q. When the transfers took place of Amtsgruppe D was there a special selection or were these administrative officers trained in their particular manner for that?
A. No, not at all; selection was carried out in the same manner with all other officers at home. In other words only the older groups were used or then those wounded more than others such people could not possibly be used to their fall extent in war.
Q. If administrative officers now were transferred to Amstgruppe D could you exert an influence on their further use and on their activity?
A. No, I couldn't do that anywhere; I couldn't do it with any other officers either, that is with reference to activity or to internal transfers. May I add something; I want to make a difference here between transfer, that is transfer, and Personnel administration of the transfer. I make a difference between the two.
Q. I would like to put before you now document No. 2147however, I see that is dated from the 9th of January 1942 and you weren't with the WVHA then.
A. No.
Q. In any case you say that you had no possibility of directing matters within Amtsgruppe D?
A. No, so that there will be no mistakes let me explain. In the applications for transfers from one office to the other or from one agency to the other we left him in charge for the formal execution of it.
However, the direction itself, and the proposal to carry it out always came from the Amtsgruppe concerned, or then from the office concerned, or then, generally speaking, from the outside agency.
Q In other words, you mean that the administration was with other Amtsgruppen, and you only had the formal execution? The mental guidance was with other Amtsgruppen?
A Well, you say "mental guidance." Do you mean the factual guidance which was under my orders? That was under my orders; yes, that is it.
Q Witness, at the time when you were in the WVHA, were there regular conferences of Amtsgruppechiefs or Amtschiefs?
A No.
Q Did you try to leave your position in the years that followed?
A Yes, on three different occasions. The first time was in the summer of 1942 when the Corps had been set up because I was supposed to take over that corps as an administrator; already prior to my transfer to the WVHA. As the senior division administrator, I had been regarded upon as the best man for that job. And, of course, I wanted to join the fighting forces. Then twice again in 1944. That was the first time to get a front-line duty assignment since I was not satisfied with my administrative job. And apart from that - that was particularly due to the simplification of the administration after so much was saved as far as personnel strength was concerned. That is, a reduction was carried out and I wanted to join the frontline boys.
Q Were your requests denied?
A Yes, in 1942 it was denied by Frank who told me that would be an uncomradely desertion, and I should stay with the WVHA for at least two years and put my ideas into reality, make my ideas come true. And that I should not think of a transfer before having served in the WVHA for two years. The other two requests were denied by Pohl, and he explained that fact by saying that those simplifications of administration, the cutting of personnel and the individual leadership, particularly with reference to age, use for war assignment, possible use for war assignment, and no use for war assignment, etc.
; the personnel administration had become more difficult than it was the case before. That was the reason.
Q Because you were an expert?
A Well, because I became an expert due to the fact that I was transferred to the WVHA.
Q Apart from your activity as chief of Amtsgruppe A-5, you were also deputy and later on chief of Amtsgruppe A -- Deputy Chief, and Chief of Amtsgruppe A?
A Yes.
Q Would you give us first of all the dates of your development as Chief of Amtsgruppe A?
AAs deputy I had already been entered into the organizational chart when I entered the WVHA, and that was because of military reasons, namely, that the man who was senior in rank, would be appointed deputy. I may add that I was the youngest amongst them in age but according to the seniority list I was the eldest one.
Q Very well. Now then, when did you become chief of Amtsgruppe A.
A I couldn't state the exact date. That was the reason why I always stated that it was in summer 1944, or in May or June 1944. I arrived at that date, for following reasons. Frank had been transferred to the Police. Pohl expected, and repeatedly mentioned that Frank would come back after a certain period of time. That was the reason why there was no actual order to assign me or anybody else to a specific duty. However, Frank became too tied to his police job as an administrative chief of the police, and we met less and less. The situation resulted by itself that we chiefs of Amts were called upon to report to Pohl directly. He would put on his letters, for instance, "R" stood for "Report." Chief A-1, Chief A-2, Chief A-3, Chief A-4, Chief A-5... And it all depended on who was the office chief who was concerned.
After I had assisted or participated in the conference about the simplification of administration with Frank outside office hours; to be exact, Frank became the president or the deputy-president for the Army, or Wehrmacht simplification of administration. And that must have occurred in April or May, because I could recall that period of time exactly because I was in Biesenthal with the regular Police there. The trees were green.... and it was hot. And, therefore, during my interrogations for the past two years I have told those things and I have that clear recollection of the exact date. However, in order not to create a misunderstanding, I kept saying "May-June" because that could be the earliest, because after that assignment of Frank's in the commission of the simplification of Army administration it was then that Pohl understood that Frank would not come back anymore, and that is when I was assigned that task. That is, with the administration of Amtsgruppe A.
Q In other words, with the administration of Amtsgruppe A in May or June, 1944, and you were officially assigned to that job.
A Later on, after my promotion to Major General in November, or in the first of December.
Q What were your tasks as deputy Amtsgruppen chief up to May and June, 1944?
A You can't really speak of actual tasks. There was no such thing at the time because I did not see any of the happenings in the other offices. Therefore, I couldn't possibly be a representative in the factual sense. And I am referring to the correspondence here in particular; when during Frank's absence a decision was to be made which that particular chief could not take himself, then I couldn't make the decision either, because, as a representative or as a deputy, I didn't have any right - neither factually or financially to make such decisions. Not any more than the individual chief of office. That is to say, when Frank was absent the decision was left up to the return of Frank, if it was not too urgent.
Or then we went to see Pohl directly. And when I speak of decisions I mean correspondence also.
However it is possible that trip tickets, for instances, and travel orders and such things, or the permission to use a truck or a vehicle, which according to the Wehrmacht's regulations, I believe they had to be signed either by a colonel or a general at certain times or then by his deputy, namely that I assumed such authority, such permissions, and also signed them, that is quite possible and it is a fact. It could also have occurred once in a while that I took care of some other things, some to her correspondence, that is, something that was just part of the formal business activity, routine activity. May be I signed it sometime. However, I can't recall any such case in particular.
THE PRESIDENT: The court will now recess.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, before the recess we discussed your position as deputy chief of the Amtsgruppe, and you have described the situation as only a formal position. Please describe to us now your position from May or June 1944 on, when you took over the direction of Amtsgruppe A.
A. Since Because of the absence of Frank from September 1943 until the time when I was given the assignment, we as office chiefs had to go directly to Pohl on almost all questions, and also were called upon by Pohl to come and see him. It had become common practice, and this could not be discontinued again so quickly. For the most part, this procedure was followed during my activity as chief of the Amtsgruppe. This was done especially because almost every chief of an office had to deal only with special assignments and tasks; as, for example, Oberfuehrer Loerner, who was Chief of A-I, even if his task was completely unimportant, had also to deal with tasks pertaining to the Allgemeine SS - the General SS. In these tasks he was directly subordinated to Pohl.
As I have, however, explained, in the field of the administration of the General SS almost no work had to be accomplished anymore. however, one or two inquiries were made by Pohl in this matter.
Q. Witness, I would like to hear more about your activity.
A. Yes, I'm coming to that in a minute. In order to simplify the administration, the activity of Amtsgruppe A was formed to the effect that within Office Group A we had more and more tasks and assignments, but these tasks were not so important anymore. As I have already stated, this was the reason that in the summer and fall of 1944 I applied to be transferred. I did not want to be a mere figurehead as chief of an Amtsgruppe. I repeatedly expressed my opinion to this effect on many occasions. I stated that it was not very pleasant for me as a younger man to be still in an administrative position in the fifth year of the war and to hold a position in which I did not have to deal with so many tasks.
I'll describe briefly the effect of the simplification procedure in the administration at the Office A-I. All budgetary matters were discontinued. No budgets were compiled anymore. No budgets had to be compiled by the troops or by the branch agencies. The Amt-A-I was not included anymore in the furnishing of funds and money, and A-II was not included in this anymore either. The agencies and troop units by virtue of the general simplification measures in the field of administration, received their funds directly from the competent field army treasury or from the Reichsbank or from one of the branch offices of the Reichsbank.
In personnel matters the effect in offices A-I and A-II was that in A-I, in addition to the Office Chief, only one administrative officer remained to carry out the work. In Office A-II, from the spring of 1944 on, even the position of the Office Chief was discontinued.
Now only two administrative officers remained in the fields A II/1 and II/2. In the Office A III only motor vehicle accidents were dealt with in the legal aspects. That is to say, compensation was paid from the Reich Treasury to persons who had been injured in the state. The register of buildings that is the Building Register of buildings owned by the Reich were -- this was the special field A III. -- was completely discontinued, because it was not considered essential for the conduct of the war.
I might also mention that in Office A III besides the office chief only one administrative officer remained. The office chief himself from the fall of 1944 on maintained the direction of the Office W VIII because in the Office A III he did not have to deal with any other tasks. I can say that seventy to eight per cent of the activity of the Office Chief A III was located with W VIII. In the Office A IV the simplification of the administration had its most serious effect, I think.
The Amt A IV previously had to deal with the accounting of bills which had been received from the treasury and agencies from the entire territory of the Reich.
Even if the auditing before could not have been carried out to a hundred per cent, that is to say, in the years 1942 and 1943, as a result of the lack of personnel, then from the spring of 1944 on the auditing came to a complete stand still. The bills were not dealt with anymore but remained there with the local agencies. They were not even sent anymore to this agency at all. So-called flying auditing squads were to be used. That is to say, the auditing was to be carried out with surprise, without any previous announcement.
I believe that this measure was announced to the outside so that the agencies would maintain the conviction that surprise spot-checks might take place at some time or other. In reality, however, from the middle and the fall of the year of 1944 on no auditing at all was carried out anymore. Only about four, five, or six administrative officers remained in the auditing office. These dealt mostly with tasks in the main office, and they worked on the things which still had to be dealt with in the Reich Auditing Court; or they had to work together on these things with the auditing court and complete the files on these matters.
I myself, for example, did not receive any additional auditing reports, and no auditing reports were submitted to me anymore. I don't think that I can recall any particular auditing. May I also point out that Amt A IV from the personal point of view when compared with the year 1942 had actually been discontinued and it was discontinued now. But it had been the strongest office with regard to personnel in 1942. From this we can deduce in the best way just how its task flickered out. No important discussions were held any longer in my office, and the discussions held at the Main Office with Pohl were very few and far between. The few tasks which had remained in the hands of the troop administration could not be of any importance to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl.
Q The Amt A IV, was it still located in Berlin at that time?
A No. I don't know exactly whether it was transferred after the first air attack in March 1943 or after the second air attack in August 1943. However, I am quite certain that it was transferred after August 1943. The agency was evacuated to about ninety to one hundred kilometers away from Berlin. It was very rarely that Vogt came to Berlin because at that time nobody came to Berlin who did not have to be there for important reasons. After all we were constantly being attacked, either in the daytime or at night, at least two or three times daily. We could not perform our regular work, and regular work could not be carried out at all in Berlin at that time.
Q In the Office A II you had mentioned that the position of the Chief had been discontinued?
A Yes.
Q You also mentioned the special fields A II/1 and A II/2. What happened to the special field A II/3?
A A II/3 was discontinued in line with the simplification of the administration. It was no longer continued as a ministerial agency for this was the agency which charged the fees. I believe that becomes evident from the chart. Translated, it should be called the "house treasury." In line with simplification of the administration and the reduction in personnel, the chief of the house administration in March or April 1944 was assigned to front-line duty. That was the house administrator. The house treasury was then placed together with the house commander's office so that this coordination in personnel could be carried out. Melmer was now in charge of the house administration, which also included house treasury. However, I should like to point out that this had taken place before I became chief of the Amtsgruppe and that therefore this was not ordered by me.
Q Was thus this field A II/3 completely removed from the Amtsgruppe?
A Yes. It did not appear in the Personnel Strength Reports either any longer.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't catch which division you mentioned. AIII?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: A II/3.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
A Regarding the personnel strength I want to mention one more thing. Just as it was done in the entire Wehrmacht, with the result of the action which was carried out as a reduction of the personnel strength, every person who held a position was trying to release as much personnel as possible; that is, so as not to tolerate in any case that in his own personnel strength young and healthy personnel was being listed and carried which did not have to work in his agency under all circumstances. Every holder of a position had to fight from month to month to keep his personnel in his office.
I believe that every three months statements had to be given containing the reasons why other personnel could not be reduce. If younger and very healthy soldiers were concerned in this matter, then the requests for releases went up to the highest agencies for approval.
