; the personnel administration had become more difficult than it was the case before. That was the reason.
Q Because you were an expert?
A Well, because I became an expert due to the fact that I was transferred to the WVHA.
Q Apart from your activity as chief of Amtsgruppe A-5, you were also deputy and later on chief of Amtsgruppe A -- Deputy Chief, and Chief of Amtsgruppe A?
A Yes.
Q Would you give us first of all the dates of your development as Chief of Amtsgruppe A?
AAs deputy I had already been entered into the organizational chart when I entered the WVHA, and that was because of military reasons, namely, that the man who was senior in rank, would be appointed deputy. I may add that I was the youngest amongst them in age but according to the seniority list I was the eldest one.
Q Very well. Now then, when did you become chief of Amtsgruppe A.
A I couldn't state the exact date. That was the reason why I always stated that it was in summer 1944, or in May or June 1944. I arrived at that date, for following reasons. Frank had been transferred to the Police. Pohl expected, and repeatedly mentioned that Frank would come back after a certain period of time. That was the reason why there was no actual order to assign me or anybody else to a specific duty. However, Frank became too tied to his police job as an administrative chief of the police, and we met less and less. The situation resulted by itself that we chiefs of Amts were called upon to report to Pohl directly. He would put on his letters, for instance, "R" stood for "Report." Chief A-1, Chief A-2, Chief A-3, Chief A-4, Chief A-5... And it all depended on who was the office chief who was concerned.
After I had assisted or participated in the conference about the simplification of administration with Frank outside office hours; to be exact, Frank became the president or the deputy-president for the Army, or Wehrmacht simplification of administration. And that must have occurred in April or May, because I could recall that period of time exactly because I was in Biesenthal with the regular Police there. The trees were green.... and it was hot. And, therefore, during my interrogations for the past two years I have told those things and I have that clear recollection of the exact date. However, in order not to create a misunderstanding, I kept saying "May-June" because that could be the earliest, because after that assignment of Frank's in the commission of the simplification of Army administration it was then that Pohl understood that Frank would not come back anymore, and that is when I was assigned that task. That is, with the administration of Amtsgruppe A.
Q In other words, with the administration of Amtsgruppe A in May or June, 1944, and you were officially assigned to that job.
A Later on, after my promotion to Major General in November, or in the first of December.
Q What were your tasks as deputy Amtsgruppen chief up to May and June, 1944?
A You can't really speak of actual tasks. There was no such thing at the time because I did not see any of the happenings in the other offices. Therefore, I couldn't possibly be a representative in the factual sense. And I am referring to the correspondence here in particular; when during Frank's absence a decision was to be made which that particular chief could not take himself, then I couldn't make the decision either, because, as a representative or as a deputy, I didn't have any right - neither factually or financially to make such decisions. Not any more than the individual chief of office. That is to say, when Frank was absent the decision was left up to the return of Frank, if it was not too urgent.
Or then we went to see Pohl directly. And when I speak of decisions I mean correspondence also.
However it is possible that trip tickets, for instances, and travel orders and such things, or the permission to use a truck or a vehicle, which according to the Wehrmacht's regulations, I believe they had to be signed either by a colonel or a general at certain times or then by his deputy, namely that I assumed such authority, such permissions, and also signed them, that is quite possible and it is a fact. It could also have occurred once in a while that I took care of some other things, some to her correspondence, that is, something that was just part of the formal business activity, routine activity. May be I signed it sometime. However, I can't recall any such case in particular.
THE PRESIDENT: The court will now recess.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, before the recess we discussed your position as deputy chief of the Amtsgruppe, and you have described the situation as only a formal position. Please describe to us now your position from May or June 1944 on, when you took over the direction of Amtsgruppe A.
A. Since Because of the absence of Frank from September 1943 until the time when I was given the assignment, we as office chiefs had to go directly to Pohl on almost all questions, and also were called upon by Pohl to come and see him. It had become common practice, and this could not be discontinued again so quickly. For the most part, this procedure was followed during my activity as chief of the Amtsgruppe. This was done especially because almost every chief of an office had to deal only with special assignments and tasks; as, for example, Oberfuehrer Loerner, who was Chief of A-I, even if his task was completely unimportant, had also to deal with tasks pertaining to the Allgemeine SS - the General SS. In these tasks he was directly subordinated to Pohl.
As I have, however, explained, in the field of the administration of the General SS almost no work had to be accomplished anymore. however, one or two inquiries were made by Pohl in this matter.
Q. Witness, I would like to hear more about your activity.
A. Yes, I'm coming to that in a minute. In order to simplify the administration, the activity of Amtsgruppe A was formed to the effect that within Office Group A we had more and more tasks and assignments, but these tasks were not so important anymore. As I have already stated, this was the reason that in the summer and fall of 1944 I applied to be transferred. I did not want to be a mere figurehead as chief of an Amtsgruppe. I repeatedly expressed my opinion to this effect on many occasions. I stated that it was not very pleasant for me as a younger man to be still in an administrative position in the fifth year of the war and to hold a position in which I did not have to deal with so many tasks.
I'll describe briefly the effect of the simplification procedure in the administration at the Office A-I. All budgetary matters were discontinued. No budgets were compiled anymore. No budgets had to be compiled by the troops or by the branch agencies. The Amt-A-I was not included anymore in the furnishing of funds and money, and A-II was not included in this anymore either. The agencies and troop units by virtue of the general simplification measures in the field of administration, received their funds directly from the competent field army treasury or from the Reichsbank or from one of the branch offices of the Reichsbank.
In personnel matters the effect in offices A-I and A-II was that in A-I, in addition to the Office Chief, only one administrative officer remained to carry out the work. In Office A-II, from the spring of 1944 on, even the position of the Office Chief was discontinued.
Now only two administrative officers remained in the fields A II/1 and II/2. In the Office A III only motor vehicle accidents were dealt with in the legal aspects. That is to say, compensation was paid from the Reich Treasury to persons who had been injured in the state. The register of buildings that is the Building Register of buildings owned by the Reich were -- this was the special field A III. -- was completely discontinued, because it was not considered essential for the conduct of the war.
I might also mention that in Office A III besides the office chief only one administrative officer remained. The office chief himself from the fall of 1944 on maintained the direction of the Office W VIII because in the Office A III he did not have to deal with any other tasks. I can say that seventy to eight per cent of the activity of the Office Chief A III was located with W VIII. In the Office A IV the simplification of the administration had its most serious effect, I think.
The Amt A IV previously had to deal with the accounting of bills which had been received from the treasury and agencies from the entire territory of the Reich.
Even if the auditing before could not have been carried out to a hundred per cent, that is to say, in the years 1942 and 1943, as a result of the lack of personnel, then from the spring of 1944 on the auditing came to a complete stand still. The bills were not dealt with anymore but remained there with the local agencies. They were not even sent anymore to this agency at all. So-called flying auditing squads were to be used. That is to say, the auditing was to be carried out with surprise, without any previous announcement.
I believe that this measure was announced to the outside so that the agencies would maintain the conviction that surprise spot-checks might take place at some time or other. In reality, however, from the middle and the fall of the year of 1944 on no auditing at all was carried out anymore. Only about four, five, or six administrative officers remained in the auditing office. These dealt mostly with tasks in the main office, and they worked on the things which still had to be dealt with in the Reich Auditing Court; or they had to work together on these things with the auditing court and complete the files on these matters.
I myself, for example, did not receive any additional auditing reports, and no auditing reports were submitted to me anymore. I don't think that I can recall any particular auditing. May I also point out that Amt A IV from the personal point of view when compared with the year 1942 had actually been discontinued and it was discontinued now. But it had been the strongest office with regard to personnel in 1942. From this we can deduce in the best way just how its task flickered out. No important discussions were held any longer in my office, and the discussions held at the Main Office with Pohl were very few and far between. The few tasks which had remained in the hands of the troop administration could not be of any importance to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl.
Q The Amt A IV, was it still located in Berlin at that time?
A No. I don't know exactly whether it was transferred after the first air attack in March 1943 or after the second air attack in August 1943. However, I am quite certain that it was transferred after August 1943. The agency was evacuated to about ninety to one hundred kilometers away from Berlin. It was very rarely that Vogt came to Berlin because at that time nobody came to Berlin who did not have to be there for important reasons. After all we were constantly being attacked, either in the daytime or at night, at least two or three times daily. We could not perform our regular work, and regular work could not be carried out at all in Berlin at that time.
Q In the Office A II you had mentioned that the position of the Chief had been discontinued?
A Yes.
Q You also mentioned the special fields A II/1 and A II/2. What happened to the special field A II/3?
A A II/3 was discontinued in line with the simplification of the administration. It was no longer continued as a ministerial agency for this was the agency which charged the fees. I believe that becomes evident from the chart. Translated, it should be called the "house treasury." In line with simplification of the administration and the reduction in personnel, the chief of the house administration in March or April 1944 was assigned to front-line duty. That was the house administrator. The house treasury was then placed together with the house commander's office so that this coordination in personnel could be carried out. Melmer was now in charge of the house administration, which also included house treasury. However, I should like to point out that this had taken place before I became chief of the Amtsgruppe and that therefore this was not ordered by me.
Q Was thus this field A II/3 completely removed from the Amtsgruppe?
A Yes. It did not appear in the Personnel Strength Reports either any longer.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't catch which division you mentioned. AIII?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: A II/3.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
A Regarding the personnel strength I want to mention one more thing. Just as it was done in the entire Wehrmacht, with the result of the action which was carried out as a reduction of the personnel strength, every person who held a position was trying to release as much personnel as possible; that is, so as not to tolerate in any case that in his own personnel strength young and healthy personnel was being listed and carried which did not have to work in his agency under all circumstances. Every holder of a position had to fight from month to month to keep his personnel in his office.
I believe that every three months statements had to be given containing the reasons why other personnel could not be reduce. If younger and very healthy soldiers were concerned in this matter, then the requests for releases went up to the highest agencies for approval.
For example, the commission had the authority when they examined the personnel in an agency to take away the adjutant from a general within one hour.
This was especially announced by General Unruh in an order in order to intimidate all the agencies, and in order to give these commissions special authority from the Higher Leadership.
Q. Did you see any difference between your position as Deputy Chief of the Amtsgruppe, and your later position as Chief of the Amtsgruppe? Actually with regard to the work there was hardly any difference?
A. No. However, I don't want to place particular inference on my person in this case, whether I saw the things which were done in one office, or not, or in individual cases; in a formal sense I was thought of in the Amtsgruppe as the superior.
Q. Formally, yes. Did you have any task with regard to the Allgemeine-SS?
A. No. I was a member of the Waffen-SS since March 1938 on.
Q. Did you ever have anything to do with the Death Head Units?
A. No.
Q. Did your activity as Chief of A-V, or Chief of Amtsgruppe, did this give you an insight into the activity of the other office groups individually?
A. Not in individual tasks or assignments with regard to organizational tasks or as to any other task in this field.
Q. Any individual occurrences in the other fields of work did not come to your knowledge?
A. That is to say--No. However, on this occasion I would like to point out the following what my expert was charged with yesterday. That is to soy, that the Personnel Office was a funny personnel office. In this connection I would like to state in particular that this was a Personnel Office which administered the personnel from the military aspect. That is to say, what we laid stress upon, let us say, in Amtstruppe-C, were only technical facts; they appeared in my personal file, in the military personnel file, either not at all or only to a very small extent.
It showed there whether a person had training in construction work, whether he was an expert in this field, that is to say, what his training and special fields were. However, this personnel file did not show anything about his duties with Amtsgruppe-C, because these personnel documents which were located in my files, mentioned the person concerned as a reserve officer, or a non-commissioned officer, or a special officer. The same thing applied to the file of Amtsgruppe-W. In my personnel files, which were located in the personnel office, it did not show what the individual person had done in any particular year, or, in what capacity he had been employed. I did not find out that at all, and, none of my collaborators knew of it, but the opinion was only given as a military opinion. In other words, the opinion had regard to character, attitude and general efficiency in performing duties. The work of the Personnel Office concerning their administrative officers, cannot be compared with the personnel offices in industry, that is to say, the Personnel Offices of commercial enterprises, or the Personnel Offices of a construction office, because these were a specialist's field of work.
Q. We have already mentioned the fact that direction of personnel in Amtsgruppe-D was exclusively dealt with in Amtsgruppe-D. But how was it with regard to Amtsgruppe B?
A. In Amtsgruppe-D as I have already mentioned, I had nothing to do with the detail of the direction of personnel and the assignment of personnel. In Amtsgruppe-B it was done exactly in the same way. That is to say, at the suggestion of the individual officers or the Chief of the Amtsgruppen, I assigned the personnel for the work which had been suggested by the offices concerned. Concerning Amtsgruppe-C, I had nothing to do with the individual administrative officers, only when requests for promotions came from the Personnel Main Office, or, where an exchange took place between the front and the homeland.
Q. And just how did the direction of personnel take place in Amtsgruppe-C?
A. While in Amtsgruppe-B, we had dealt with administrative officers in general, that is, the troop administration, in Amtsgruppe-C were dealing almost exclusively with specialists officers. That is to say, primarily socalled specialist officers who were called Sunderfuehrer, special leaders in the Wehrmacht. They were persons who were used in one specialist field, and who during that period of time had officer rank; from a military point of view. However they were not officers. When they returned to the unit, they would lose their grade as a specialist officer, they again became non-commissioned officers, or recrouts or returned to whatever position they had held previously. That was primarily the personnel in Amtsgruppe-C.
Q. I would like to show you now a document from Document Book II, Exhibit No. 44, which is on page 82 of the German text. It is Distribution of work Plan of Amtsgruppe-C. Can you tell us if this also shows that the direction of personnel was handled there?
A. Yes, in general that is evident from the fact that the Chief of Amtsgruppe-C had filed such a plan of the personnel, and a change in the personnel must have preceded the compiling, and he must have carried that out himself. I can recall in particular that Kammler every eight weeks, or every three months, issued such a new chart. Whether I know in particular this chart, I don't know any more. However, I know that he transferred his personnel around very frequently, and that many changes took place in his organization. He liked very much to compile charts, and he preferred to change his organization frequently, to satisfy his ambition, so afterwards we did not take a close look at his chart any more. May I point out something else? On page 5 Kammler himself states something with regard to personnel experts. This was with regard to Unterscharfuehrer Richter. At the top of page 6 of the German he mentioned a liaison officer from the personnel office. Then he mentioned the legal offices which shows that even here he did main tain his independence.
Q. For the special assignment of Kammler was there personnel furnished from Amts-A-5?
A. No. Yes, it was furnished in cases when Kammler had transferred the people, and took them along to the special staff. Kammler had special authority in these cases. For example, within the WaffenSS, and, especially in the technical units, or communications service, and so on, the combat engineers, the artillery, from these branches of service he could draw his expert personnel. And then he could request their transfer to the Staff. He could do that with the operational Main Office tasks, which mainly furnished his personnel. He also could do that, however, with the WVHA. Other than the work I already mentioned, Kammler was not ween at all any more. He had the authority for the Jaegerstab, a special staff, to draw personnel from all branches of the Wehrmacht. I believe that his units and his personnel consisted almost exclusively of personnel which had been taken from the Army and the Luftwaffe. I personally, did not know of any individual assignment and transfer. I can only recall that there were only very few, because he was always by officers of the Army, or the Luftwaffe, or the Aircorps, whom he had selected as specialists.
Q. Now how did the personnel guidance take place in Amtsgruppe-W?
A. I know too little about guidance of personnel. I can only say that for the most part, and almost exclusively he was dealing with civilian personnel here. Where members of the Waffen -SS were concerned, that is to say, soldiers, you have to differentiate between two things. First of all, he had people who in some plant, or some company, had previously worked as civilian workers, and, then, they were again used for these tasks after they had been drafted into the military service, and they were detached to be put back to their old work, in general, with the Wehrmacht; or they were called indispensable for a time. This was the military procedure which was carried out in the en tire German Wehrmacht; furthermore, soldiers were detached into the armament industry.
That is to say, they included also officers and non-commissioned officers, and men. The Personnel Office became active like any military personnel office, or Quartermaster Office. They had to deal with the detachment of specialists in order to have them work in armament plants.
Q. And the personnel side of administrative officers also was subordinated to you who were transferred to the units of the Waffen-SS
A. Yes.
Q. --And other units?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you act completely independently in all these matters?
A. That was my field of work, the Personnel Office for Troop Administrative Officers.
Q. And were you completely independent in doing this work?
A. Up to rank of Captain I was completely independent in these matters. From Staff Officers, that is to say, from the grade of Major upwards, Pohl had reserved himself the right of making decisions. He dealt with the Fieldgrade Officers, and in individual cases. I myself could not decide but for the most part my suggestions were accepted.
Q. And the training of the new recruits was also subordinate to you? Where was this school for administrative officers located?
A. The school up to the end of 1943 was located at the training Camp of Dachau. From the end of 1943 on it was located in the infantry barracks at Arolsen near Kassel.
Q. Please describe the location of this school in the training camp at Dachau?
A. The training camp at Dachau had in my estimation approximately perhaps, one-hundred to one-hundred and twenty buildings. There might have been approximately sixty to eighty barracks buildings. I estimated that there were thirty to forty stone structures and buildings.
In this training camp several schools were located that furnished the training of replacement units. I estimate that twenty to twenty-five or thirty-thousand soldiers passed through this training center, and through this school.
Q. In what relationship was this school to the concentration camp at Dachau?
A. I don't understand what you mean when you say, what was the relationship?
Q. Well, tell us what was the distance between the two places?
A. I did not know the concentration camp at Dachau from the inside before. I only saw it from the inside when I was confined there myself. The road from the outside gate of the concentration camp up to the administrative school was approximately one and a half kilometers. I only know the following: When a year, or a year and a half ago, we went from our barracks, or from the prison building to the courtroom, in the training camp, this was done by car, because the road was too long. We were also brought back again by car. The distance of the administrative school apparently was still farther. If I may make a comparison, only the administrative school is the last, or second last building from the entire training camp, to the west. The concentration camp, on the other hand, this is in the opposite direction in the east, and there it joins with this troop training camp. From the camp we could not see anything, because the entrances were separated by the road. Coming from Munich there were two separate roads, and from the road junction one went into the training camp, and the other one had a sign posted with the marking "Concentration Camp." That is to say, where the roads separated was before the built up area.
Q. Something else about the schedule at the training school. Did its training plan correspond to the training regulations of the Army, so far as the Army Administration was concerned?
A. Yes, because as Divisional Administrative Officer I was subject to Army regulations. I, therefore, invoked my army knowledge, and we also organized our schedule in accordance with directives. That is to say, we had to observe all Army administrative regulations. Not merely to comply with the Army Administrative regulation sheets and gazettes appeared also to be training, of the Waffen-SS in exactly the same manner.
Q. Did you yourself play any part in the training?
A. Yes, the training plans had to be submitted to me for my approval. So far as the military training was concerned, I would discuss this matter with the chief of the training system in the Operational Main Office, the specialist training department, and in administrative matters I had to approve and examine myself.
Q. Did you put in an appearance in the administrative school?
A. Yes, I made my appearance in almost every training school. For the most part I attended the intermediary examinations, and the final examinations, and the individual classes. I know that I was present on one examination.
Q. Did you ever talk to the students there?
A. Yes, I always discussed subjects with the classes, above all, in the final celebrations. I would speak a few words, or at a dinner which was given afterwards, which was given whenever a class graduated within the school.
THE PRESIDENT: You mentioned "dinner", so I suggest a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1345 hours.
(Noon recess until 1345 Hours, 11 June 1947)
AFTERNOON SESSION.
(The hearing reconvened at 1350 hours, 11 June 1947).
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
HEINZ KARL FANSLAU - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, before the recess we stopped with the schools and with the training. I wanted to ask you a concluding question to this latter subject. What do you consider most important, particularly as far as character is concerned, when training these troops?
A. A good attitude, military appearance, immaculate appearance both during and off duty. Furthermore, with reference to tasks I pointed out that good contact to the troops would have to be maintained, and not with words but with acts. I taught the young officers that promotion to an officer is not connected with particular rights and privileges, rather with particular duties, and particularly with a special responsibility.
THE PRESIDENT: We don't want to be too restrictive, but this really goes beyond the limit. We don't want to listen all over again to the speech that he made to the SS men. We don't need it.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Witness, would you be a little bit more brief, please?
Q. (By Dr. Von Stakelberg) We now come to another chapter. That is the question of your knowledge of the crimes which these defendants are being charged with. Did you know of the existence of the concentration camps?
A. Personally? You mean personally or only according to the name?
Q. Only according to their name.
A. I knew of ten to fifteen according to their name.
Q. What did you see in those concentration camps?
A. In the concentration camps I saw a state institution in order to intern enemies of the state, in other words, people who were working against the state.
THE PRESIDENT: We may misunderstand your question, Dr. Von Stakelberg. Do you mean what did he see in the camps when he went to visit them?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, you mean what was his idea of the camp?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Yes.
A(continued ) I saw in those camps a measure in prior to intern such people who were fighting against the people or who were violating regulations of the Government or then who somehow acted politically against the State in order to avoid certain things and on the other hand in order to re-educate them. Thus for instance unsocial elements.
DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Did you see concentration camps yourself? Which ones?
A. Well, I have seen one concentration camp from the inside, that is. Stutthof, in May or June 1943. I was called up by telephone one evening by Pohl and that was at the time when I looked for a new building for the administrative school. I had been offered the barrack at Arolsenby the army and Pohl called me up in the evening and told me "tomorrow morning at seven 08clock you can fly down with me to Stutthof". The camp at Stutthof will probably be dissolved. It can be used for your school then you can establish your school there. The best thing for you to do would be to look at it yourself." And we returned on the same evening. The following morning at seven o'clock or at 7:30 we took off and we arrived at Stutthof between 10:00 and 11:00 A.M. and we took a car from there on. We saw the hospital and the garden, two or three barracks and three or four labor barracks.
THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Where did you start from?
A. Berlin.
Q. Stutthof is not anywhere near Dachau nor in the same direction.
THE INTERPRETER:
No, your Honor, he said near "Danzig".
THE PRESIDENT: I think it was translated "Dachau".
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. What did you see there, did you see the hospital?
A. Yes, I saw the hospital. I can recall that I was near there standing not too close to Pohl.