This was especially announced by General Unruh in an order in order to intimidate all the agencies, and in order to give these commissions special authority from the Higher Leadership.
Q. Did you see any difference between your position as Deputy Chief of the Amtsgruppe, and your later position as Chief of the Amtsgruppe? Actually with regard to the work there was hardly any difference?
A. No. However, I don't want to place particular inference on my person in this case, whether I saw the things which were done in one office, or not, or in individual cases; in a formal sense I was thought of in the Amtsgruppe as the superior.
Q. Formally, yes. Did you have any task with regard to the Allgemeine-SS?
A. No. I was a member of the Waffen-SS since March 1938 on.
Q. Did you ever have anything to do with the Death Head Units?
A. No.
Q. Did your activity as Chief of A-V, or Chief of Amtsgruppe, did this give you an insight into the activity of the other office groups individually?
A. Not in individual tasks or assignments with regard to organizational tasks or as to any other task in this field.
Q. Any individual occurrences in the other fields of work did not come to your knowledge?
A. That is to say--No. However, on this occasion I would like to point out the following what my expert was charged with yesterday. That is to soy, that the Personnel Office was a funny personnel office. In this connection I would like to state in particular that this was a Personnel Office which administered the personnel from the military aspect. That is to say, what we laid stress upon, let us say, in Amtstruppe-C, were only technical facts; they appeared in my personal file, in the military personnel file, either not at all or only to a very small extent.
It showed there whether a person had training in construction work, whether he was an expert in this field, that is to say, what his training and special fields were. However, this personnel file did not show anything about his duties with Amtsgruppe-C, because these personnel documents which were located in my files, mentioned the person concerned as a reserve officer, or a non-commissioned officer, or a special officer. The same thing applied to the file of Amtsgruppe-W. In my personnel files, which were located in the personnel office, it did not show what the individual person had done in any particular year, or, in what capacity he had been employed. I did not find out that at all, and, none of my collaborators knew of it, but the opinion was only given as a military opinion. In other words, the opinion had regard to character, attitude and general efficiency in performing duties. The work of the Personnel Office concerning their administrative officers, cannot be compared with the personnel offices in industry, that is to say, the Personnel Offices of commercial enterprises, or the Personnel Offices of a construction office, because these were a specialist's field of work.
Q. We have already mentioned the fact that direction of personnel in Amtsgruppe-D was exclusively dealt with in Amtsgruppe-D. But how was it with regard to Amtsgruppe B?
A. In Amtsgruppe-D as I have already mentioned, I had nothing to do with the detail of the direction of personnel and the assignment of personnel. In Amtsgruppe-B it was done exactly in the same way. That is to say, at the suggestion of the individual officers or the Chief of the Amtsgruppen, I assigned the personnel for the work which had been suggested by the offices concerned. Concerning Amtsgruppe-C, I had nothing to do with the individual administrative officers, only when requests for promotions came from the Personnel Main Office, or, where an exchange took place between the front and the homeland.
Q. And just how did the direction of personnel take place in Amtsgruppe-C?
A. While in Amtsgruppe-B, we had dealt with administrative officers in general, that is, the troop administration, in Amtsgruppe-C were dealing almost exclusively with specialists officers. That is to say, primarily socalled specialist officers who were called Sunderfuehrer, special leaders in the Wehrmacht. They were persons who were used in one specialist field, and who during that period of time had officer rank; from a military point of view. However they were not officers. When they returned to the unit, they would lose their grade as a specialist officer, they again became non-commissioned officers, or recrouts or returned to whatever position they had held previously. That was primarily the personnel in Amtsgruppe-C.
Q. I would like to show you now a document from Document Book II, Exhibit No. 44, which is on page 82 of the German text. It is Distribution of work Plan of Amtsgruppe-C. Can you tell us if this also shows that the direction of personnel was handled there?
A. Yes, in general that is evident from the fact that the Chief of Amtsgruppe-C had filed such a plan of the personnel, and a change in the personnel must have preceded the compiling, and he must have carried that out himself. I can recall in particular that Kammler every eight weeks, or every three months, issued such a new chart. Whether I know in particular this chart, I don't know any more. However, I know that he transferred his personnel around very frequently, and that many changes took place in his organization. He liked very much to compile charts, and he preferred to change his organization frequently, to satisfy his ambition, so afterwards we did not take a close look at his chart any more. May I point out something else? On page 5 Kammler himself states something with regard to personnel experts. This was with regard to Unterscharfuehrer Richter. At the top of page 6 of the German he mentioned a liaison officer from the personnel office. Then he mentioned the legal offices which shows that even here he did main tain his independence.
Q. For the special assignment of Kammler was there personnel furnished from Amts-A-5?
A. No. Yes, it was furnished in cases when Kammler had transferred the people, and took them along to the special staff. Kammler had special authority in these cases. For example, within the WaffenSS, and, especially in the technical units, or communications service, and so on, the combat engineers, the artillery, from these branches of service he could draw his expert personnel. And then he could request their transfer to the Staff. He could do that with the operational Main Office tasks, which mainly furnished his personnel. He also could do that, however, with the WVHA. Other than the work I already mentioned, Kammler was not ween at all any more. He had the authority for the Jaegerstab, a special staff, to draw personnel from all branches of the Wehrmacht. I believe that his units and his personnel consisted almost exclusively of personnel which had been taken from the Army and the Luftwaffe. I personally, did not know of any individual assignment and transfer. I can only recall that there were only very few, because he was always by officers of the Army, or the Luftwaffe, or the Aircorps, whom he had selected as specialists.
Q. Now how did the personnel guidance take place in Amtsgruppe-W?
A. I know too little about guidance of personnel. I can only say that for the most part, and almost exclusively he was dealing with civilian personnel here. Where members of the Waffen -SS were concerned, that is to say, soldiers, you have to differentiate between two things. First of all, he had people who in some plant, or some company, had previously worked as civilian workers, and, then, they were again used for these tasks after they had been drafted into the military service, and they were detached to be put back to their old work, in general, with the Wehrmacht; or they were called indispensable for a time. This was the military procedure which was carried out in the en tire German Wehrmacht; furthermore, soldiers were detached into the armament industry.
That is to say, they included also officers and non-commissioned officers, and men. The Personnel Office became active like any military personnel office, or Quartermaster Office. They had to deal with the detachment of specialists in order to have them work in armament plants.
Q. And the personnel side of administrative officers also was subordinated to you who were transferred to the units of the Waffen-SS
A. Yes.
Q. --And other units?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you act completely independently in all these matters?
A. That was my field of work, the Personnel Office for Troop Administrative Officers.
Q. And were you completely independent in doing this work?
A. Up to rank of Captain I was completely independent in these matters. From Staff Officers, that is to say, from the grade of Major upwards, Pohl had reserved himself the right of making decisions. He dealt with the Fieldgrade Officers, and in individual cases. I myself could not decide but for the most part my suggestions were accepted.
Q. And the training of the new recruits was also subordinate to you? Where was this school for administrative officers located?
A. The school up to the end of 1943 was located at the training Camp of Dachau. From the end of 1943 on it was located in the infantry barracks at Arolsen near Kassel.
Q. Please describe the location of this school in the training camp at Dachau?
A. The training camp at Dachau had in my estimation approximately perhaps, one-hundred to one-hundred and twenty buildings. There might have been approximately sixty to eighty barracks buildings. I estimated that there were thirty to forty stone structures and buildings.
In this training camp several schools were located that furnished the training of replacement units. I estimate that twenty to twenty-five or thirty-thousand soldiers passed through this training center, and through this school.
Q. In what relationship was this school to the concentration camp at Dachau?
A. I don't understand what you mean when you say, what was the relationship?
Q. Well, tell us what was the distance between the two places?
A. I did not know the concentration camp at Dachau from the inside before. I only saw it from the inside when I was confined there myself. The road from the outside gate of the concentration camp up to the administrative school was approximately one and a half kilometers. I only know the following: When a year, or a year and a half ago, we went from our barracks, or from the prison building to the courtroom, in the training camp, this was done by car, because the road was too long. We were also brought back again by car. The distance of the administrative school apparently was still farther. If I may make a comparison, only the administrative school is the last, or second last building from the entire training camp, to the west. The concentration camp, on the other hand, this is in the opposite direction in the east, and there it joins with this troop training camp. From the camp we could not see anything, because the entrances were separated by the road. Coming from Munich there were two separate roads, and from the road junction one went into the training camp, and the other one had a sign posted with the marking "Concentration Camp." That is to say, where the roads separated was before the built up area.
Q. Something else about the schedule at the training school. Did its training plan correspond to the training regulations of the Army, so far as the Army Administration was concerned?
A. Yes, because as Divisional Administrative Officer I was subject to Army regulations. I, therefore, invoked my army knowledge, and we also organized our schedule in accordance with directives. That is to say, we had to observe all Army administrative regulations. Not merely to comply with the Army Administrative regulation sheets and gazettes appeared also to be training, of the Waffen-SS in exactly the same manner.
Q. Did you yourself play any part in the training?
A. Yes, the training plans had to be submitted to me for my approval. So far as the military training was concerned, I would discuss this matter with the chief of the training system in the Operational Main Office, the specialist training department, and in administrative matters I had to approve and examine myself.
Q. Did you put in an appearance in the administrative school?
A. Yes, I made my appearance in almost every training school. For the most part I attended the intermediary examinations, and the final examinations, and the individual classes. I know that I was present on one examination.
Q. Did you ever talk to the students there?
A. Yes, I always discussed subjects with the classes, above all, in the final celebrations. I would speak a few words, or at a dinner which was given afterwards, which was given whenever a class graduated within the school.
THE PRESIDENT: You mentioned "dinner", so I suggest a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1345 hours.
(Noon recess until 1345 Hours, 11 June 1947)
AFTERNOON SESSION.
(The hearing reconvened at 1350 hours, 11 June 1947).
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
HEINZ KARL FANSLAU - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, before the recess we stopped with the schools and with the training. I wanted to ask you a concluding question to this latter subject. What do you consider most important, particularly as far as character is concerned, when training these troops?
A. A good attitude, military appearance, immaculate appearance both during and off duty. Furthermore, with reference to tasks I pointed out that good contact to the troops would have to be maintained, and not with words but with acts. I taught the young officers that promotion to an officer is not connected with particular rights and privileges, rather with particular duties, and particularly with a special responsibility.
THE PRESIDENT: We don't want to be too restrictive, but this really goes beyond the limit. We don't want to listen all over again to the speech that he made to the SS men. We don't need it.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Witness, would you be a little bit more brief, please?
Q. (By Dr. Von Stakelberg) We now come to another chapter. That is the question of your knowledge of the crimes which these defendants are being charged with. Did you know of the existence of the concentration camps?
A. Personally? You mean personally or only according to the name?
Q. Only according to their name.
A. I knew of ten to fifteen according to their name.
Q. What did you see in those concentration camps?
A. In the concentration camps I saw a state institution in order to intern enemies of the state, in other words, people who were working against the state.
THE PRESIDENT: We may misunderstand your question, Dr. Von Stakelberg. Do you mean what did he see in the camps when he went to visit them?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, you mean what was his idea of the camp?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Yes.
A(continued ) I saw in those camps a measure in prior to intern such people who were fighting against the people or who were violating regulations of the Government or then who somehow acted politically against the State in order to avoid certain things and on the other hand in order to re-educate them. Thus for instance unsocial elements.
DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Did you see concentration camps yourself? Which ones?
A. Well, I have seen one concentration camp from the inside, that is. Stutthof, in May or June 1943. I was called up by telephone one evening by Pohl and that was at the time when I looked for a new building for the administrative school. I had been offered the barrack at Arolsenby the army and Pohl called me up in the evening and told me "tomorrow morning at seven 08clock you can fly down with me to Stutthof". The camp at Stutthof will probably be dissolved. It can be used for your school then you can establish your school there. The best thing for you to do would be to look at it yourself." And we returned on the same evening. The following morning at seven o'clock or at 7:30 we took off and we arrived at Stutthof between 10:00 and 11:00 A.M. and we took a car from there on. We saw the hospital and the garden, two or three barracks and three or four labor barracks.
THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Where did you start from?
A. Berlin.
Q. Stutthof is not anywhere near Dachau nor in the same direction.
THE INTERPRETER:
No, your Honor, he said near "Danzig".
THE PRESIDENT: I think it was translated "Dachau".
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. What did you see there, did you see the hospital?
A. Yes, I saw the hospital. I can recall that I was near there standing not too close to Pohl.
I saw that the hospital was separated into various parts for members of the SS and for inmates. Pohl spoke with the physician there and he conferred with one or two sick SS men and as far as I can really recall he spoke with one or two inmates who were sick.
Q. How was the general condition of the hospital?
A. Whereas in the billets, there were no sheets on the beds, there were bed sheets in the hospital, that is to say blankets; the whole hospital gave us the impression of being very clean. The beds had either one shelf or two shelves. I, myself, said we would have been very glad if we had such hospitals in the army, in Burma. The impression that we had was that the hospital was very clean. The lodgement barracks for the sleeping halls were surely not too crowded. However, I couldn't recall today if there was a special sort of living room and sleeping halls or if everything was combined together. I couldn't tell for sure today. Most of the people that were there were women. We went to a few labor barracks and the women were working on sewing machines there. I believe they had a few weaving chairs also and they did a lot of stitching work. They were working on some sort of Wehrmacht uniforms or uniform parts which were being manufactured there.
Q. What did the inmates look like? Did their look undernourished?
A. No, they looked absolutely normal.
Q. Did you notice anything about crimes or cruelties?
A. No, we only stayed in the camp for an hour or an hour and a half and then we had lunch there at the Kommandantur Building and after lunch we went back to Danzig and were back in Berlin in the evening.
Q. Did you ever visit any other concentration camp?
A. No, not from the inside. I was in Buchenwald once during the christening of a railroad, that was a public affair, some small local railroad track from Buchenwald to Weinnam was christened.
The Mayor and officials and workers and employees of both the State Railway and also from the private construction firms. There were also about 40 to 60 guests from Weimar. Civilian soldiers.
Q. You weren't in the concentration camp yourself?
A. No, I have a vague recollection, however I couldn't tell you for sure, if we saw any work or labor barracks there, where amunition shells were being processed. I think anti-air craft artillery shells. I can recall that. However, I couldn't tell for sure if I went through the barracks or not but I believe that I saw some shells lying around there.
Q. Did you at any time have knowledge of cruelties at the concentration camps?
A. Excuse me, I would like to mention a third concentration camp-Ravensbrueck-I know the concentration camp of Ravensbrueck.
Q. You knew about it?
A. Yes I did; I was never inside the camp.
Q. Did you ever know of cruelties in the concentration camps?
A. No; I heard about them after the capitulation, when I was still in freedom and I read it in the papers when my brother returned from American captivity and brought along American papers. According to my recollection they had written about Buchenwald. My brother asked me, "did you ever hear anything about those things? Do you know anything about them?" and I explained it to him that this was probably enemy propaganda because those things the way they were stated in the papers could not have possibly remained a secret because one must have had to know about them. I would like to add furthermore that I, although I heard about those things, and although we, the SS, were charged with concentration camps I myself went to the American PW camp after my brother returned. At the time of the capi tulation, I was about 70 or 80 kms.
from the place, where my family had been evacuated to.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Before you get away from a statement you just made: You said that reading the accounts of these atrocities you came to the conclusion that one must have known about such things if they actually existed; that one could not help but know.
A. Yes, I assumed that.
Q. Now, must we gather from that remark that you are of the impression that the atrocities did not exist and that the stories were fabricated? Is that what you are endeavoring to say?
A. Yes, that is what I assumed at first. When I first heard about it from my brother I assumed that, yes, that they were exaggerated at least.
Q. And is that your opinion today?
A. No. I was from between 70 and 80 kms. from where my people had been evacuated during the capitulation and I walked over there because my aged mother, was with my wife and sister with three children they were refugees from the East. I wanted to see what had happened to my family because there were three women with seven children all by themselves, particularly since my sister's husband had been a prisoner of war in Russia. I would like to add further more that I appeared in a prisoner of war camp with all my papers and with my full uniform and that I gave all my personal data to the American Army at that time in the same way as today and all my official
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. You wish to show by that, witness, that you had a clear conscience?
A. Yes, that also.
Q. Did you know anything about the medical experiments on which we have a whole series of documents?
A. No.
Q. And how about the euthanasia program?
A. I already stated before I heard about this term in 1945 and 1946.
Q. How about the expression 13/14?
A. I heard about it here in this Tribunal
Q. You will have to answer a bit slower please. Apparently you know something about slave labor or concentration camp labor assignment.
A. Yes.
Q. I shall give you again document No. 1016 in Document Book No. II, Page 122 of the German, the Exhibit No. is 46.
It is your correspondence concerning the tasks of the WVHA. There is a certain addition here by Amtsgruppe W, and it contains certain statements about labor assignment of concentration camp inmates.
A. May I speak about the whole correspondence, how the whole thing originated? Pohl sent me a letter which he had received from the Wehrmacht administration (today I can no longer recall if it came from the navy administration or the army administration) and the request was to send an officer who knew something about the SS organization, the supply of the Waffen-SS, and also who knew about the tasks of the WVHA with reference to supplying the Waffen SS. All three branches of the Wehrmacht, during an administrator's class lecture, should be given. Pohl gave me that order. I did not have any difficulty with army matters because I knew all about it. However, I could not write on the other matters, and I asked for some help. That is how this particular letter originated. I myself did not carry out the order. I did not work on the lecture, nor did I give it. It was the technical director of the school, and the deputy commander of our administrative school who worked on this before, and delivered it about eight weeks later according to the order.
Q. In this speech here labor assignment is discussed; concentration camp labor assignment. Did you see something irregular about that?
A. No; that inmates were being used, I knew. One could see it everywhere. If one was near factories, for instance, with Heinkel I saw that myself when I drove by with my car in Oranienburg. But if those were labor camps and if those people had just been transferred to the factories, and if they were being taken care of there, or if this was just carried out in the ten or fifteen concentration camps I knew of --- all those questions are things which I knew nothing of.
Q. As the purpose of this labor, it is stated in the speech that was mainly an educational purpose, is also stated in there, that it was being tried out to bring about a revolution of the execution of punishments insofar that through labor assignment people who were not accustomed to work, people who were afraid to work were reeducated to do work.
Do you believe that?
A. Yes, that could be deducted. Apart from that I could understand it very well that during the war many people committed offenses, and that these persons couldn't be fed without doing work, while the people were suffering and while, there was a lack of labor and while the whole situation was getting worse and worse from year to year with the increase of the hardships of war.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Just a moment. Witness, I understood you to say that you at no time had anything to do with Amtsgruppe D. That is what you said this morning, is it not?
A. I was asked about a guidance of personnel and how it worked out, or then what I could find out through that personnel guidance, if I knew all the tasks within Amtsgruppe D.
Q. My impression was that you were clearing your skirts completely of any association of any kind with Amtsgruppe D.
A. No, Your Honor, I explained it very clearly that I carried out transfers, that I carried out transfers from the front line to home, to D. And I had also stated it in that connection. However, from those transfers, from those various tasks of the administrative officers, for instance, or of other members, I could not find out anything at all. And I was speaking about my guidance of personnel, and transfer of personnel.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. What, did you mean by the term "antisocial elements?"
A. By the term "antisocial elements" I understood such people who did not have a job, but rather carried out black-market activities without having a real profession, who enriched themselves. Or such people reported to the labor offices and received labor and then left their place of assignment after two or three days. Then, habitual alcoholics who spent most of their income on alcohol while their families starved.
Q. Did you also mean Jews by that, and members of the Eastern peoples?
A. By the term "antisocial" I only meant people in Germany who acted against the community of the people, that is, the construction work of the people.
Q. Did you know anything about the systematic spoiliation of the occupied countries?
A. No, nor did I work in any of the occupies territories.
Q. And what about the extermination program of Jews and its execution?
A. I only heard about the extermination of Jews through the HMain Trials or publications respectively.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of the so-called Reinhardt Action?
A. No; as I recall it, I heard the name Reinhardt Action for the first time when I was brought here to Nurnberg in October 1946. And that was when Pohl asked me, What are you doing here?" And I said, "I don't know."
After my return from the interrogation on 19 October Pohl told me -- I don't remember exactly what date it was, it was some days later-"You will probably be taken to the witness building. You are probably scheduled as a witness." And then he told me that he had been interrogated so-and-so many times, whereupon I asked him why. And he told me two or three things in connection with Amtsgruppe D, concentration camp matters. Then he spoke of a visit to the Reichsbank and of the Reinhardt Action. Then I asked him, "What is that?" He answered, "That is in connection with one of Globocnik's special tasks, and you can't possibly know about it." I also asked the same question to Vogt when he, in December, came back from an interrogation, and when he was transferred -
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I don't see that these conversations among the defendants here in the Nurnberg jail are of any probative value, and I don't think it should be pursued further.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, that is sufficient about that point. Did you know anything about Vogt's auditing work with Globocnik?
A. No.
Q. Didn't he ever report to you?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever hear about this action through the correspondence in your capacity as the group chief?
A. No; it is possible that one of those letters was among the mail with the abbreviation "Reinh." for Reinhardt. That is quite possible. But as within the Amtsgruppe itself and not with my office. And furthermore if I really had seen such a letter, which however would be immaterial, then I am sure that I wouldn't have paid any attention to it, and I wouldn't have recalled it today. In any case, I had nothing to do with those things, and neither did I see anything nor did I hear anything about it. And I recall that for sure. And I am talking about foreign exchange and bills or coins, or then in some sort of a valuable metal, or then as I said in one of the documents, of gold or gold teeth. Regardless of what the quantities were, of one or two grams, or then of kilograms of gold teeth. Nor did I know anything about the eye glasses. I know that for sure, that I didn't know anything about them.
Q. Now, can you see from the documents that the particular field of task A-2-3 was participated in the Reinhardt Action; in your capacity as Amtsgruppe chief or deputy Amtsgruppe chief, didn't you find out anything about the Reinhardt Action then?
A. I don't know. I don't even know what you mean by that.
Q. I don't mean any particular incident.
A. No, I can't recall anything. I had nothing to do with A II 3 anyway.
Q. A II 3 had already been eliminated by then?
A. Yes.
Q. The prosecution introduced here Document NO 3161, Exhibit No. 543. It was introduced here by the prosecution. It is dated 4 July 1944 and bears the marginal note A II 3, Melmer, by order. Did you ever know anything about this letter?
A. No, I can't recall this letter, and I would like to add something to it. From the distribution list it can be seen that it was sent directly to A IV and to A I. That, according to my opinion, proves that the Main Office chief and possibly also the expert did not yet take into consideration the Office Group A on the basis of what was hitherto customary. However, I would like to add that at that time already I was chief of Amtsgruppe and the Chief A IV and the Chief A I were under my orders.
Q. Witness, the fact that the file note A II 3 is still being used here, doesn't that show that the particular task of A II 3 had not yet been taken away from A III?
A. Towards the outside, yes. However, the thing was, and I can see it from this reference here, they are referring to some correspondence, namely, that Melmer, who apparently worked on this thing during all the time, used the same old file note.
Q. You think that only the file note was being used. However, this does not mean that it was incorporated in Amtsgruppe A.
A. No, I can't find any other explanation for it, because it did not belong to Amtsgruppe A. May I add something before you continue? Under paragraph 3, "Collective Camps of the SD", of the Security Service, I didn't know anything about that in July 1944. Nor can I imagine how an agency or treasury of the Waffen-SS could possibly get money from the collective camps of the SD.
Q. Witness, I have the Document NO 2672 here before me, Exhibit No. 36. It is this big chart. It is also on the wall here and it contains more details than here. It was introduced by the prosecution as a supplement to their basic statements. Take a look at Amt A-II here on the chart. As you can clearly see, also the field of Task A II 3 is contained under A I, office for fees. You say that fact was no longer correct since about March 1944?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Did you sign this chart with reference to A II?
A. Neither with reference to A II nor with reference to the office group at all. Only A V, and when doing so, I noticed a mistake which was made by the interrogator, namely, that the person had forgotten to bring that addition under A 5, 4. When I wanted to take a look at that, he said, Thank you, it is enough. And Frank already took care of the rest.
Q. In other words, you did not sign for A II at the same time?
A. No, I didn't see it actually.
Q. In other words, you say it is an actual mistake?
A. Yes, at least for that time, March/April 1944.
MR. ROBBINS: I don't understand in what respect the witness has testified that this chart is inaccurate. I would like to know for my own information.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, would you explain once again in how far is Amt A II erroneously stated on this chart, or rather tell us up to what time this set-up was valid.
A. The change which was carried out due to the simplification of administration is missing and the same change is missing over there on this chart with the chief of A II.
Q. You spoke of A II 3. Would you explain this again, what happened with A II 3 and how far this chart is erroneous in this?