Q I want to go back for just a moment to the work at the stone quarries. Did you see the workers there who were beaten and hanged as punishment?
A In the quarry itself I did not see it too often. I did not see it. However, I did see at the Messerschmitt how a man went to, say, Tunnel Number 11 with an inmate and he just came back alone, and he said that a dead man had to be carried back to the camp. Therefore, the man was probably hanged.
Q You did see men worked to death in the stone quarries under DEST?
A Yes, I did. They then subsequently died of undernourishment.
Q You saw inmates die, workers in the DEST, die from undernourishment or inmates who had died from undernourishment?
A Yes, I did. They went out together with us and then they came back as bodies.
Q Herr Krysiak, to what do you attribute the fact that you lived through these experiences in Malthausen?
A I can explain that by my health, because I was quite a sportsman. At that time and from the moment on I worked in the armament I was just plain lucky, because they needed me as a specialist, and apart from that I have tuberculosis so that I am not as healthy as I used to be before I entered the camp.
Q You suffer from tuberculosis today, do you?
A Yes, I do.
Q And what is the cause of that?
A Well, my arrest in the concentration camp in Gusen, and furthermore I owe this to the medical corps that took care of us after the collapse, because thousands of us who were taken care of by the American medical corps, quite a few of us died because they were not strong enough to even eat.
The road from St. Georgen to Linz, on that road, at a distance of every ten to twenty meters you could see the dead and who had died subsequently. Later on they were gathered and buried at the churchyard in Gusen.
MR. ROBBINS: The prosecution has no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL (Counsel for defendant Oswald Pohl):
Q Witness, you were arrested for political reasons and sent to the concentration camp Mauthausen; right?
A Yes.
Q In that camp Mauthausen there were also other prisoners who were there for other reasons?
A Yes, there were other inmates also. The camp chiefs and the block chiefs were criminals; whereas we red ones had to do heavy work, for instance, the green ones all got out of the concentration camp where most of the red ones actually died. I don't know if they were actually for political reasons or due to some other reason, but the moment that a person received that red triangle he was used for heavy and bad work.
Q How was the percentage between the political and the habitual criminal inmates there?
A Eighty percent of them were political prisoners, mainly due to the following reasons, because the greatest percentage in the concentration camp of Mauthausen and Gusen were foreigners.
Q You mentioned before that the green ones led various things in the camp. May I understand your statement to the effect that the illegal camp administration was being carried out by the habitual criminals?
A Yes, there were clerks -- the clerks or the greatest part of the capos were habitual criminals.
Q You stated before that heavy abuse took place and was carried out by the block oldest; among these block oldest and the capos there were not members of the SS, but inmates?
A I did not say that most of the abuse came from these capos, but I said generally speaking that amongst us there were quite a few people who beat us and that many of us died. I have to add to that that the SS was the reason for moving the inmates to Gusen, mainly due to such abuses; for the very simple reason that every human being has a certain sense to preserve himself, and the green ones had more of this sense than the political prisoners. For instance, if the Kommandantur would have promised them so and so many cigarettes for having killed so and so many people, I am sure they would have done it.
Court No. II - Case No. 4
Q. The camp commander was responsible for the general situation in the camp?
A. Yes.
Q. The conditions in Gusen 1 were better than in Gusen 2?
A. Yes.
Q. When was it that the construction of Gusen 2 was begun?
A. In winter 1943.
Q. Who was responsible for the working conditions in those particular work shops, or working places, in which the firm Steyr and Messerschmitt had the supervision? Were the firms responsible for that or the camp administration?
A. No, the Dest was responsible for that. It was a fact that the firms would only facilitate contain things for the accommodations, but the most responsible persons for certain things was Otto Walter, who was the Chief of the management of Dest at St. Georgen.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions.
BY DR. HAENSEL for Defendant Georg Loerner:
Q. You said that the barracks in Gusen 1 originally were supposed to held 300 men?
A. Yes.
Q. This number, as you said before, however, was increased to 1,000 men?
A. Yes.
Q. If, we understand now, 300 men were in those barracks, could one say then that they would have been well taken care of?
A. No, what I mean by that, that only three men would, have slept in a bed.
Q. No, you don't understand me. Let's assume that only 300 men had been in the barracks instead of 1,000. Now, do you think that these 300 would have been able to live in a decent manner?
A. In a certain way, yes. If the day room would have remained, a day room then would only have been for 150 men, but when that room, when the day room was also used for sleeping facilities then we had successive use of that barracks.
Q. Let's forgot the successive use of the barracks and let's just assume that when the camp was built and for instance when they built a sleeping hall for 300 people, do you think that would have been suitable?
A. Yes, it would have been.
Q. In other words, the installations themselves were o. k.?
A. Yes.
Q. The difficulty only arose due to the excessive number of people there?
A. Yes.
Q. The beds that were taken there, were they somewhat good?
A. What do you mean by "good"? They were nothing but wooden cots three stories high, 180 centimeters long and 80 centimeters broad, with two blankets, whether it was winter or summer, we had two old blankets.
Q. Were these things sent in or were they manufactured in the camp itself?
A. You mean the beds?
Q. Yes, the beds.
A. I don't know in what concentration camp they were made.
Q. The cupboards?
Court No. II - Case No. 4
A. We did not have any cupboards.
Q. The tables?
A. No, I do not know anything about that either. We had only one table and the block older, the clerk, had that. There was another we had the bread on. There were no tables. There was no such a thing in Gusen 1 or Gusen 2.
Q. Then you were taken to the Guson, did it make an orderly impression?
A. Yes, however, there were no sanitary installations and we had no possibility after putting so many more people in one barracks.
Q. Did you ever visit the camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Was everything all right when you visited the camp?
A. Yes, well I can express it to you. In 1944 on the order of Obersturmfuehrer Meyer, who was in charge of the CIC and who had sent a report to Berlin due to the catastrophic billeting conditions of the camp and also the living conditions in Guson 2, there was a visit immediately upon this report, and prior to that Rapport Leader Killemann Schultz went to see every one of the block elders and told him by threatening him by penal servitude told him what to say. In spite of the fact that Obersturmfuehrer Meyer was then transferred, the Abwehrbeauftragter Limpert was the man who took over. However, the conditions remained the same.
Q. Did every one of the inmates then act as he was told to act according to the instructions. Did everyone do what they were told?
A. Nobody could afford to tell . They did not have the courage.
Q. You said before that you did not understand at Court No. II - Case No. 4 Mauthausen how these men who were condemned to death could have been allowed to be killed.
The human thing to do would have been, I am sure, for these men who would lose their life anyway would at least revolt.
A. No, that is what those people would think out of the camp, but we in the camp, we know this, that the people were apathetic. They did not care if they have to die in three or four days or a week. That was the opinion which everyone had who was in the camp.
Q. That is some sort of a disease, which you are telling us of?
A. Of course it was some sort of a disease. No one would have the power to resist.
Q. How were the guards? Did they often change? When did now people come?
A. Up to 1943 hardly. Then in 1943 on or from the Spring of 1944 there were several changes.
Q. How were these new people arranged in their new jobs?
A. Then they were instructed by Obersturmfuehrer Seidler who acted the same way as their predecessors or comrades.
Q. Are you of the opinion now that this is sort of a redemption?
A. Of course, I have that sort of an impression, but that doesn't help me, or thousands of them that died; many of them worked around and they are eliminated, -
THE PRESIDENT: You were crowding the witness too fast. Give him time to answer. Slow up, please.
Q. It is quite true what you say. It does not help the dead. However, today, we must give the responsibility to those guilty. That is why it is of great importance to see how far in that complex they were; also that applies Court No. II - Case No. 4 to this disease you mentioned and how far such a person could possibly understand their results.
For instance, we could say with you that it was very difficult for you to understand all these horrible things and to think about them, again to speak about them. Now, why my question is justified is how far could a human being who was not in the camp and did not see those things possibly imagine that such things were possible?
A. Excuse me, Defense Counsel, if I tell you that if I stood some place as a manager and figures go through my fingers, when the people are moved or are going to be transported and I have to have some sort of an idea and I ask myself where are these people going, and that is particularly true when reports are being sent to Berlin every day.
Q. This is where nobody could speak of the killings. It is necessary for us to see who is guilty. I am sure there are many guilty ones. That is why I ask that question. What was the chief reaction when they saw people were being killed this, like animals? That is my question.
A. That is something which I mentioned before which cannot be understood by someone who is outside because one cannot express those views. This is something that grasps you and you like to pass over this without questions. I have seen people die in the concentration camp, people for whom I would have given my life, people who were just hurt.
Q. The great question is, if a human being who was a young SS soldier in a camp like that would have possibly been able to keep track of the great number of things that he could not understand himself.
A. I believe, if he was strong in the inside then I am Court No. II - Case No. 4 sure that he would not have let anybody influence him.
For instance, people move to the front after four to six weeks, because people would rather go to the front and live the life there than be in a concentration camp.
DR. HAENSEL: No further questions, Your Honor.
BY DR. BELZER (Attorney for Defendant Sommer):
Q. Witness, you stated before that the civilians some times were worse than the SS. You mentioned that in connection with Steyr and Messerschmitt?
A. No, only with Messerschmitt.
Q. Only with Messerschmitt?
A. Yes.
Q. Did civilians also work in the quarries?
A. Yes.
Q. Also with Steyr?
A. Yes.
Q. Particularly with Messerschmitt?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the working hours for those civilians?
A. The civilians usually worked on the average approximately 8 hours. That is, they work in three shifts.
Q. They worked approximately 8 hours?
A. Yes, whereas we worked in three shifts, in other words, 12 hours a day.
Q. How was it that they interchanged. How did they interchange in front of the inmates?
A. They left and the other shift came.
Q. Now can you tell us anything about the inmate payment, the payment of the inmates, what were they paid?
A. The inmates received certain premium payments. The premiums should have been paid out by the month. On the basis of these premiums we received cigarettes from the Court No. II - Case No. 4 mess halls there.
Or, if we received one mark bonus we received nine cigarettes. Now a good skilled worker could make approximately six or seven or eight bonuses per month and out of those premiums he bought himself cigarettes and then he exchanged them.
Q. What was the value of a single bonus?
A. The single bonus had the value of one mark.
Q. You say that for a month a good skilled worker could receive seven to eight such bonuses?
A. Yes, I said six to eight.
Q. Six to eight.
A. Yes.
Q. Would you have any idea how these premiums were calculated or figured out?
A. No, I don't.
Q. You mean within the factory?
A. Yes, The Kommandofuehrer did that.
Q What did the Kommandofuehrer do?
A In agreement with the group workers he wrote down their premiums, for instance, good work, six to eight premiums of work, etc. etc. down to one mark. Some of them never received anything at all, etc.
Q Who was that who wrote out or gave the premiums of bonuses?
A The Kommandofuehrer.
Q Do you know anything about the fact that the inmates were given a special additional food rations for heavy work?
A Yes, I do.
Q To what extent?
A All the people of the armament were given additional food ration, and these food rations were also given out by Perch, who was from the Food Administration. However, in reality neither did we receive a single gram of fat, bread or anything else. Up until October of November 1944, a new work manager came from Oranienburg, a man by the name of Obersturmfuehrer Brauner. He supplied the foot which was better from the that day on, and we received additional amount of bread, certain vegetables and milk, and they sent or delivered 300 quarts of thin milk per day.
Q For all the inmates?
A No, only part of them received it, and that was a revolting matter, because they received very little per day.
Q Can you tell us the percentage of the inmates who received this additional food ration?
A Yes, once a week all the inmates received that because with the work Werkleiter Brauner said that the weak ones also should receive once a week additional food rations, because he quite insisted on the work, because otherwise they would not be in a position to work hard. Then when the collapse came Otto Walter arrived at the camp with truckloads of food - - - or rather he left the camp with food and sugar and margarine and butter.
Q Do you know cases where inmates were released at Mauthausen?
A No.
Q None whatsoever?
A No.
Q You said before that the greens finally succeeded in getting released from camp?
A I never said such a thing.
Q There must be a misunderstanding? I understood that you were released?
A You mean the greens. No, I never said such a thing. In what connection did I say such a thing?
Q I understood you to say before that the green ones had been able to leave the concentration camp, while the red ones were not able to do so?
A Yes, after the collapse, that is.
Q In other words, that is not the case, where people were released, or only just a case of survivals?
A Yes, released only took place shortly before the end of the war, that is, where these habitual criminals were drafted in the SS and were thrown out of Mauthausen. However, they were still within the camp.
Q You mean to state that Mauthausen, and in Gusen 1 and 2 you knew of no case where people were released from the camp?
A No.
Q Then you stated before that the reason for the abuses by the greens was the SS?
A Yes.
Q Did you see that for yourself?
A Yes, I did, for the very simple reason that the SS alone, namely, the Kommandatur staff would never had been able to keep, order in the camp. That is why they used the so called Block eldest and the capos, and the block clerks, etc. and they received a special bonus which was one hundred cigarettes per month, and they had special reduction, or rather privileges in the way of food, they received more bread and butter, etc.
Q You did not quite answer my question. I want to know, witness, if you yourself had even seen one instance, namely, that the SS in the Kommandatur staff had ever told one of the capos, or one of the clerks, etc. that you had to do this and this and that and that and that you will receive bonus for that?
A Yes, and I can even prove it to you. Every week there was a so called paying out, that is when the inmate came to the desk and they received their pay, and the SS no longer paid these people but the capos and the chiefs paid them. They were paid with cigarettes.
Q You were not present when they issued these orders to the capos, were you?
A No, I was not. I was afraid to go close to them.
Q You said before that you locked through the files after the collapse?
A Yes. I also looked through the private files of Otto Walter, and at the house where he did not take along with him the files, and which he did not destroy, because in his hurried departure everything was thrown on his desk.
Q And you went through the files in his house and also through the files in the camp?
A Yes.
Q Did you go through any documents to see there or find out what the percentage was of the inmates who received the additional food ration for the heavy work?
A Yes. For the entire command of the Messerschmidt, there were food for 4,800 inmates which had been requisitioned and approved by the food ministry and generally speaking --
Q You never saw the document which the Kommandatur had ordered to give additional food for heavy producing workers?
A No, definitely I did not.
DR. BELZER: I have no further cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further cross examination? I wish to ask the witness a few questions.
Q You were a German citizen?
A I am a German citizen.
Q Right. I accept your correction. At the time of your arrest you were a German citizen?
A Yes, I was.
Q With the benefit of the German law?
A Yes.
Q Were you ever given a hearing or trial of any kind before you were sent to the prison, before you were sent to the concentration camp?
A No, I was not. I was only interrogated by the Gestapo.
Q Did you have your chance to defend yourself in any court?
A No, there was no way to defend yourself.
Q You were arrested by the Gestapo and accused by the Gestapo and sent to prison by the Gestapo?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you married at that time?
A No, I was not.
Q You are married now?
A Yes.
Q Married since your release?
A Yes.
Q Since the war?
A Yes - - -no, since I was release.
Q Yes. They did not even bother to take you before the People's Court, is that right?
A No, there was no such a thing. I, however, never saw that. I was not even indicted in this sense. All that happened I had a Schutzhaft order, which set up "Political re-education for a period of six months in a concentration camp."
Q Your political re-education which was supposed to be accomplished in six months lasted how long?
A Four years and a half.
Q Four years and a half. And then it was not ended by the Germans, but by the Allies liberating you?
A Yes, that is correct. We happened to have the luck that on 5 May the Americans were faster that the execution orders which were orders from Berlin namely, to blow up the tunnels together with the inmates.
Q You are not a Jew, you are not a Pole, nor a Russian. Your are an Aryian, a German citizen?
A Yes, I am.
THE PRESIDENT: No further question.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: How much did you fall off in weight before you were liberated?
A. On liberation I weighed fifty-eight kilograms, and I am 178 tall centimeters. Now I weigh sixty-eight or sixty-seven kilograms.
Q. Were there other prisoners of war in this case, of different nationality?
A. Yes, there were Russians, Frenchmen. There were also Americans and British soldiers in the camp.
Q. Was there any difference in the treatment of prisoners of war and the political prisoners in the camp?
A. No, no difference whatsoever.
Q. They were all worked alike and treated alike?
A. Yes, all of them had to work in similar manner.
Q. Did prisoners of war work in the Messerschmitt factory?
A. Yes, with the exception of the English. All the prisoners of war worked there regardless of their nationality, regardless if they were political prisoners, or prisoners of war. They had to work in the armament wherever they were required.
Q. Americans, as well as French and the Russians?
A. Yes. The Americans were there only for three days, and then they were sent to Mauthausen. I don't know who did order it.
Q. Were they stationed together, beaten and mistreated as the other prisoners were?
A. Yes, of course, that applied to everybody regardless of the nationality.
Q. You saw prisoners of war stationed there both beaten and killed, and mistreated?
A. Yes, I saw that quite often.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until -
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, this witness is supposed to be in Dachau tomorrow at a trial there, and it would be a great convenience if I could be permitted to ask three questions, and then he be dismissed.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, I though you had finished with your examination. Go ahead.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Krysiak, was all of your property confiscated when you were put in the concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Your car, your clothes and your bank account?
A Yes, everything. UP to date, in spite of the special laws being issued now, I have received nothing at all, so that I have to live on what I earn today. After the collapse, when I got out of the camp, I didn't have a suit or anything else. I had to go to the economic office, like anybody else, and wait till I got the special clothes coupons.
Q In the quarries and in the munitions plants, did the inmates receive any pay, other than the bonuses which you mentioned-any wages?
A No, they did not--not at all.
Q Do you know whether Messerschmidt paid anything for inmates labor and, if so, how much and to whom?
A Of course, they did, because the pay of came monthly through the Kommandaturas of the concentration camp, may be through Mauthausen to the Dest.
Q Do you knew how much was paid?
A No. All I know is that the DEST in 1942 or 1943 made a net profit of 2,000,000 marks.
MR. ROBBINS: The prosecution has no further questions, and unless the defense counsel have, we would ask that the witness Krysiak dismissed.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there other questions of this witness by the Defense?
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FROESCHMANN (for defendant Mummenthey):Q I have one question, Your Honor.
Witness, how do you know that in 1942 and 1943 the DEST had a profit of 2,000,000 marks?
A I said 1943. I know that because of a file copy which I found at the House of Otto Walter. I don't know whether it was a small draft, but I know that the profit was 2,000,000 Marks, and we wandered how the DEST had possibly made such a profit.
Q You could not tell us for sure that this document had some sort of officila character?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30 (Whereupon at 16:
35, 14 April 1947 the Tribunal recessed until 09:30 hours, 15 April, 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on 15 April 1947, 0930 - 1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2.
Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
MR. McHANEY: The Prosecution requests that the Tribunal have the witness, Albert Kruse, summoned to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it Kruger?
MR. McHANEY: Kruse, K-r-u-s-e.