Q What did the Kommandofuehrer do?
A In agreement with the group workers he wrote down their premiums, for instance, good work, six to eight premiums of work, etc. etc. down to one mark. Some of them never received anything at all, etc.
Q Who was that who wrote out or gave the premiums of bonuses?
A The Kommandofuehrer.
Q Do you know anything about the fact that the inmates were given a special additional food rations for heavy work?
A Yes, I do.
Q To what extent?
A All the people of the armament were given additional food ration, and these food rations were also given out by Perch, who was from the Food Administration. However, in reality neither did we receive a single gram of fat, bread or anything else. Up until October of November 1944, a new work manager came from Oranienburg, a man by the name of Obersturmfuehrer Brauner. He supplied the foot which was better from the that day on, and we received additional amount of bread, certain vegetables and milk, and they sent or delivered 300 quarts of thin milk per day.
Q For all the inmates?
A No, only part of them received it, and that was a revolting matter, because they received very little per day.
Q Can you tell us the percentage of the inmates who received this additional food ration?
A Yes, once a week all the inmates received that because with the work Werkleiter Brauner said that the weak ones also should receive once a week additional food rations, because he quite insisted on the work, because otherwise they would not be in a position to work hard. Then when the collapse came Otto Walter arrived at the camp with truckloads of food - - - or rather he left the camp with food and sugar and margarine and butter.
Q Do you know cases where inmates were released at Mauthausen?
A No.
Q None whatsoever?
A No.
Q You said before that the greens finally succeeded in getting released from camp?
A I never said such a thing.
Q There must be a misunderstanding? I understood that you were released?
A You mean the greens. No, I never said such a thing. In what connection did I say such a thing?
Q I understood you to say before that the green ones had been able to leave the concentration camp, while the red ones were not able to do so?
A Yes, after the collapse, that is.
Q In other words, that is not the case, where people were released, or only just a case of survivals?
A Yes, released only took place shortly before the end of the war, that is, where these habitual criminals were drafted in the SS and were thrown out of Mauthausen. However, they were still within the camp.
Q You mean to state that Mauthausen, and in Gusen 1 and 2 you knew of no case where people were released from the camp?
A No.
Q Then you stated before that the reason for the abuses by the greens was the SS?
A Yes.
Q Did you see that for yourself?
A Yes, I did, for the very simple reason that the SS alone, namely, the Kommandatur staff would never had been able to keep, order in the camp. That is why they used the so called Block eldest and the capos, and the block clerks, etc. and they received a special bonus which was one hundred cigarettes per month, and they had special reduction, or rather privileges in the way of food, they received more bread and butter, etc.
Q You did not quite answer my question. I want to know, witness, if you yourself had even seen one instance, namely, that the SS in the Kommandatur staff had ever told one of the capos, or one of the clerks, etc. that you had to do this and this and that and that and that you will receive bonus for that?
A Yes, and I can even prove it to you. Every week there was a so called paying out, that is when the inmate came to the desk and they received their pay, and the SS no longer paid these people but the capos and the chiefs paid them. They were paid with cigarettes.
Q You were not present when they issued these orders to the capos, were you?
A No, I was not. I was afraid to go close to them.
Q You said before that you locked through the files after the collapse?
A Yes. I also looked through the private files of Otto Walter, and at the house where he did not take along with him the files, and which he did not destroy, because in his hurried departure everything was thrown on his desk.
Q And you went through the files in his house and also through the files in the camp?
A Yes.
Q Did you go through any documents to see there or find out what the percentage was of the inmates who received the additional food ration for the heavy work?
A Yes. For the entire command of the Messerschmidt, there were food for 4,800 inmates which had been requisitioned and approved by the food ministry and generally speaking --
Q You never saw the document which the Kommandatur had ordered to give additional food for heavy producing workers?
A No, definitely I did not.
DR. BELZER: I have no further cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further cross examination? I wish to ask the witness a few questions.
Q You were a German citizen?
A I am a German citizen.
Q Right. I accept your correction. At the time of your arrest you were a German citizen?
A Yes, I was.
Q With the benefit of the German law?
A Yes.
Q Were you ever given a hearing or trial of any kind before you were sent to the prison, before you were sent to the concentration camp?
A No, I was not. I was only interrogated by the Gestapo.
Q Did you have your chance to defend yourself in any court?
A No, there was no way to defend yourself.
Q You were arrested by the Gestapo and accused by the Gestapo and sent to prison by the Gestapo?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you married at that time?
A No, I was not.
Q You are married now?
A Yes.
Q Married since your release?
A Yes.
Q Since the war?
A Yes - - -no, since I was release.
Q Yes. They did not even bother to take you before the People's Court, is that right?
A No, there was no such a thing. I, however, never saw that. I was not even indicted in this sense. All that happened I had a Schutzhaft order, which set up "Political re-education for a period of six months in a concentration camp."
Q Your political re-education which was supposed to be accomplished in six months lasted how long?
A Four years and a half.
Q Four years and a half. And then it was not ended by the Germans, but by the Allies liberating you?
A Yes, that is correct. We happened to have the luck that on 5 May the Americans were faster that the execution orders which were orders from Berlin namely, to blow up the tunnels together with the inmates.
Q You are not a Jew, you are not a Pole, nor a Russian. Your are an Aryian, a German citizen?
A Yes, I am.
THE PRESIDENT: No further question.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: How much did you fall off in weight before you were liberated?
A. On liberation I weighed fifty-eight kilograms, and I am 178 tall centimeters. Now I weigh sixty-eight or sixty-seven kilograms.
Q. Were there other prisoners of war in this case, of different nationality?
A. Yes, there were Russians, Frenchmen. There were also Americans and British soldiers in the camp.
Q. Was there any difference in the treatment of prisoners of war and the political prisoners in the camp?
A. No, no difference whatsoever.
Q. They were all worked alike and treated alike?
A. Yes, all of them had to work in similar manner.
Q. Did prisoners of war work in the Messerschmitt factory?
A. Yes, with the exception of the English. All the prisoners of war worked there regardless of their nationality, regardless if they were political prisoners, or prisoners of war. They had to work in the armament wherever they were required.
Q. Americans, as well as French and the Russians?
A. Yes. The Americans were there only for three days, and then they were sent to Mauthausen. I don't know who did order it.
Q. Were they stationed together, beaten and mistreated as the other prisoners were?
A. Yes, of course, that applied to everybody regardless of the nationality.
Q. You saw prisoners of war stationed there both beaten and killed, and mistreated?
A. Yes, I saw that quite often.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until -
MR. ROBBINS: Your Honor, this witness is supposed to be in Dachau tomorrow at a trial there, and it would be a great convenience if I could be permitted to ask three questions, and then he be dismissed.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, I though you had finished with your examination. Go ahead.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Krysiak, was all of your property confiscated when you were put in the concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Your car, your clothes and your bank account?
A Yes, everything. UP to date, in spite of the special laws being issued now, I have received nothing at all, so that I have to live on what I earn today. After the collapse, when I got out of the camp, I didn't have a suit or anything else. I had to go to the economic office, like anybody else, and wait till I got the special clothes coupons.
Q In the quarries and in the munitions plants, did the inmates receive any pay, other than the bonuses which you mentioned-any wages?
A No, they did not--not at all.
Q Do you know whether Messerschmidt paid anything for inmates labor and, if so, how much and to whom?
A Of course, they did, because the pay of came monthly through the Kommandaturas of the concentration camp, may be through Mauthausen to the Dest.
Q Do you knew how much was paid?
A No. All I know is that the DEST in 1942 or 1943 made a net profit of 2,000,000 marks.
MR. ROBBINS: The prosecution has no further questions, and unless the defense counsel have, we would ask that the witness Krysiak dismissed.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there other questions of this witness by the Defense?
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FROESCHMANN (for defendant Mummenthey):Q I have one question, Your Honor.
Witness, how do you know that in 1942 and 1943 the DEST had a profit of 2,000,000 marks?
A I said 1943. I know that because of a file copy which I found at the House of Otto Walter. I don't know whether it was a small draft, but I know that the profit was 2,000,000 Marks, and we wandered how the DEST had possibly made such a profit.
Q You could not tell us for sure that this document had some sort of officila character?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30 (Whereupon at 16:
35, 14 April 1947 the Tribunal recessed until 09:30 hours, 15 April, 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on 15 April 1947, 0930 - 1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2.
Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
MR. McHANEY: The Prosecution requests that the Tribunal have the witness, Albert Kruse, summoned to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it Kruger?
MR. McHANEY: Kruse, K-r-u-s-e.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You will please raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath as follows:)
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q Witness, your name is Albert Henry Kruse?
AAlbert Henry Kruse, that is.
Q And you are presently living in Hamburg?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is the street address?
A Vendloer Weg. No. 11.
Q When and where were you born?
A On the 12th of May, 1906, in Malente Gremsmuehlen.
Q And you are a German citizen?
A Yes, I am.
Q Are you now an inspector for an insurance company in Hamburg?
A I am inspector for the Ortskrankenkasse.
Q Did you also work for an insurance company before the war?
A Yes, I worked at the same institute until the 21st of January, 1933.
Q I don't think it is necessary to go over all of your early history, Herr Kruse. Were you arrested by the Gestapo in March, 1941?
A Yes, I was.
Q What was the reason for your arrest?
A I was arrested on the basis of a denunciation by a lady I had met in Berlin.
Q And for what reason were you denounced by this lady?
A I still don't know the reason today.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
Q Wasn't there something about your having written statements which were -
A Yes; the lady had heard certain statements from me which I had made -- or rather that I had written -- about National Socialism. She had those papers and turned them over to the Gestapo.
Q Can you give us any idea what those statements were?
A I wrote approximately the following: The lady had written to me in one of her letters. At that time we also had to say yes. My answer to that was approximately the following: It is really too bad that your appeal has been directed to a man who is against every thinking and idea of the third person's thinking, and therefore my answer is a categorical no. Furthermore, I said a system which ever since it existed has nothing else but just suppression both here and abroad -- that such a system could not possibly give me ideas, no matter how well served they are.
And that is how I formulated my thoughts. Whereupon I do have to add, however, that I did not know that the lady with whom I had friendly relations was a B.D.M. group leader.
Q A B.D.M. group leader?
A B.D.M. That means Bund Deutscher Maedchen, the German girls. That was for women or girls -- the same thing as the H.J., the name of the Hitler Jugend, which was for the boys.
Q Were you tried for anything after your arrest by the Gestapo?
A Yes, I was put before the Special Court in Berlin, whereupon the indictment was based on the Heimtuecke-Vergehen -- that means malicious trespass against the State, sedition against the State. And with the help of my Defense Counsel, I tried to save myself. Later on they just indicted me on a mistake I had made.
Q You were indicted for something in the nature of a slander against the State?
A Yes, I was sentenced to nine months in prison.
Q And did you spend nine months in jail in Berlin?
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
A I spent nine months in jail in Berlin, yes.
Q Then what happened?
A Then I was naturally released, but on my paper for release it said, "Released to the Police Office." And that is where I spent four months, during the course of which the Schutzhaft order written out by Mr. Heydrich was given me. And I can give you the exact date -- the end of March 1942. I was then transferred to the Concentration Camp of Neuengamme -
Q In other words, you were tried and convicted of slandering the State in March, 1941 -
A Well, the conviction took place on the 4th or 5th of July.
Q The date was the 4th or 5th of July. And you were sentenced in July, 1941, to nine months in jail?
A Yes. The sentence was then recognized.
Q And you were then held after serving nine months for a further four months in jail?
A Yes, approximately four months; that is correct.
Q And then in March, 1942, you were committed to the Concentration Camp Neuengemme under a protective custody order, is that right?
A The protective custody order had been written out somewhat earlier.
Q And were you a red or green prisoner in the camp?
A I was a political prisoner. That resulted from the mistake I made.
Q And a political prisoner is a red prisoner, isn't that right?
AA political prisoner wore a red triangle in the concentration camp, underneath which was the number of the person in the concentration camp.
Q What political party did you subscribe to before the war?
A I was never in the Social Democrat Party.
Q You never joined the Nazi Party -
A No.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
Q -- is that right? Now, what work were you assigned to after your arrival in the Neuengamme Concentration Camp?
A I was first of all assigned to the so-called commando, Elbe Regulation, or Control.
Q What was that?
A That was special earth movement work -- that was the technical expression, regulating the Elbe River. It had to be regulated at certain points, and all work in connection with it had to be carried out by hand; in other words, we had to work with spade and pick. We had to detach certain masses of earth and load them on trucks, whereupon they were transferred to another place.
Q Now, can you tell us approximately how many inmates there were in the Neuengamme Concentration Camp when you arrived there?
AAt my time there were approximately from eight to ten thousand inmates. Earlier there might have been a little bit more, and later on, again more.
Q And this figure of eight to ten thousand inmates does not include the outside camps.
A Neuengamme at the beginning had no outside camps, because in itself it was just an outside camp of Oranienburg; only later on did Neuengamme become a camp in its own right -- and then Neuengamme had outside camps of its own. In any case, there were: an outside camp of Neuengamme, "Commando Bremen," which did construction work; second, the "Commando Braunschweig," which was attached to the Herman Goering Works, and third, a construction Commando that built a new camp by the name of Abermeid, but that was approximately in the course of the year 1942. That was the time it was built.
Q What large city is Neuengamme near?
A Neuengamme is thirty kilometers southeast of Hamburg.
Q How long did you remain on this earth-moving commando which you were first assigned to?
A I remained there approximately only six weeks. Then, due to Court No. II, Case No. IV.
the bad shoes I had, my feet became infected. I was treated at the hospital there for a few days.
Q And were you in May, 1942, assigned to the clinker works in Neuengamme?
A Yes, I was. That was in the second commando.
Q Will you explain to the Tribunal just what a clinker works makes, what it produces?
A The clinker works, I had to make certain restrictions there. At the time I was there the great manufacture of war production had not started in Hamburg. The factory was being constructed at the beginning and there was the so-called old factory, Neuengamme. In other words, they were already manufacturing goods. That was an old-fashioned brick factory and they used the earth in order to manufacture the bricks.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
In the course of the year, 1942, this Klinker Works in Hamburg was set up with the use of approximately two thousand inmates per day. In Neuengamme one of the most fashionable Klinker Works was erected, which was known in the world of the brick manufacturers. The Klinker Works itself manufactured, apart from the normal bricks, also the so-called klinker. That klinker is a special stone which is used in connection with specialized work. Apart from these klinker stones or bricks, special bricks for roofing were used later on, or special candles which were sent to the SS by the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler on Christmas.
Q Well, they manufactured then in the Klinker Works in Neuengamme ordinary building bricks, and then the special klinker bricks, and also roofing tiles, didn't they?
A Yes, that's correct. The klinkers could only be manufactured to a certain percentage compared with the other bricks. I imagine that it did not amount to more than 20 per cent, and it was only proportionate then that the klinkers brought in the double price of the normal bricks.
Q Now, who controlled the Klinker Works in Neuengamme?
A I did not quite get the question. Would you repeat it please? In what connection do you mean that? Do you mean the factory manager or -
Q What company controlled the Klinker Works?
A Oh, I see. The Klinker Works belonged to the DEST.
Q The Deutsche Erd Und Steinwerke; is that correct?
A The DEST, GMBH - that's what it said on the administration building there.
Q And did you later come to know that Mummenthey was the director of DEST?
A I only found that out in Oranienburg.
Q But you did later come to know that fact, didn't you?
A Yes, that fact had to be known to me some time.
Q And did you also learn that Mummenthey was the Amtschef of Amt W-I of the WVHA?
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
A Of the WVHA in Berlin, yes.
Q Now, you state that they were constructing a larger brick works in Neuengamme when you were first assigned there in May 1942?
A Yes, that resulted from the fact that there was a new construction factory there which was the Klinker Works in Hamburg.
Q And do you know who had charge of the construction of this new Klinker Works?
A Would you repeat the question?
Q Do you know what office controlled the construction of this new Klinker Works in Neuengamme?
A I only heard that from inmates; that is, from the inmates of the construction group, that the name AMT C was mentioned during the construction. I myself had no insight into those things at the time.
Q But you did hear that Amtsgruppe C was in charge of the construction?
A Yes, and I was told that by the inmates in the construction company or construction group.
Q Did you later have any access to documents which indicated to you that Amtsgruppe C of the WVHA did, in fact, control the construction of the Klinker Works?
A That only occurred in Oranienburg.
Q Now, you say there were approximately two thousand inmates assigned to take care of the construction of this new plant and also to work the old plant?
A Yes, that is correct. They were used as long as the construction works -- until the completion of the factory or the plant. Approximately two thousand inmates went to the Klinker command in the morning.
Q How was this assignment to the Klinker Works considered in the concentration camp?
A I did not quite understand the sense of your question.
(Question repeated by interpreter)
A The assignment took place in the camp itself by the labor as Court No. II, Case No. IV.
signment fuehrer who actually took care of the assignment of the various commandos.
Q Well, did the inmates like to get on this assignment to the Klinker Works? Was it considered desirable work?
A That I am afraid I can't tell.
Q Well, now, witness, I don't think you understand the question. Was the assignment to work for the Klinker Works considered desirable by the inmates?
A No, I already said before that the working commando, Klinker Works, was considered a punitive commando and was considered the most difficult and hardworking commando of the camp. That applied at least for the time of the construction.
Q Now, what work did you do upon your assignment to the Klinker Works?
A First of all I was assigned to the little wagon commando. The work consisted of loading and unloading these small wagons, and we loaded earth.
Q In other words, you were working in the clay pit loading and unloading the lorries which transported the clay from the pit to the Klinker Works?
A Yes, that's correct. Only with the difference that I did not work in the clay pit itself. On that great field there were so many places with earth and clay, before we could remove the clay a certain amount of earth had to be removed in order to reach the clay itself.
Q Did they also have sand pits in connection with the Klinker Works?
AAs far as I can remember there were a few gravel pits. However, I can't give you any exact details on that.
Q Was the work in the clay pit done by hand?
A Yes, it was. The whole work was carried out by hand.
Q And did you have to push these lorries by hand?
A Yes, we had to push them by hand. The whole work was carried Court No. II, Case No. IV.
out by hand. In other words, to load them and to unload them and to push the lorries to their spot where they were unloaded and to drive back.
Q Did they later on mechanize these lorries?
A That only occurred in the actual clay pit. We received sort of a small train after the main work was completed. From that moment on that little train was used. The work for the people who were employed there was that the inmates had to remove the clay with a special knife and load it onto the lorries. That small train was used in order to remove the clay from the pit itself and to take it into the factory.
Q Now, witness, did you find the conditions of work with the Klinker Works cruel and inhumane?
A Up until the time of the completion of the plant the work was inhumane and difficult and tiring for the very simple reason that generally speaking, that we worked in the karracho. That was an expression used in the concentration camp which probably meant on the double.
Q Well, now, will you describe the conditions of work?
A I would have to start at the early morning. As soon as the working commandos were assigned new people the working commando started off for the day. These two thousand people were then driven on the double, falling over each other, until they reached their working place. The capos and SS people had great fun to beat these people while running after them, while there was a confusion.
Then the people were assigned to various working commandos. How the work developed amongst the other commandos I cannot tell. However, in my commando it was usual that we immediately proceeded to the lorries which, as I mentioned before, had to be carried out on the double, and then we had to push those carts on the double to the loading place. It happened once in a while that an SS man stood in the lorry and would beat the inmates to move faster.
The work then lasted until 11:30. As far as I can remember we had half an hour off at noon. In the camp itself the noon pause was one hour.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
The food had to be eaten outside in the field regardless of whether it was winter or summer. It often occurred that capos, those were the foremen, in case the inmate should not hold the plate correctly the capo would kick it out of his hand so that he would have to spend the whole day without eating anything. If an inmate collapsed while he was working, which was absolutely natural due to the undernourishment there and it was a daily occurrence, then he was thrown into a closed in area, closed in by barbed wire, in which daily there were between ten and thirty inmates, and they had to lie there on the bare earth regardless of whether it was winter or summer.