Q. Do you know, witness, that the local commandants interfered with the actual production of the plants, inasmuch as they decided what inmate workers were to work in the plant even if they were of no interest to the plant?
A. Yes, that happened very often. That material which had been produced in the plant by request of somebody in the camp was used by the camp itself.
Q. Let's be a little more clear, please. Did the inmates have to smuggle that material into the camp, or what happened?
A. Yes, they had to hide it and bring it in.
Q. Was it heavy stuff?
A. In some cases it was tools, and in some cases it was processed stones. When the camp wanted to build something it would appear that these men who assigned the inmates for work in these enterprises of the DEST, would have them bring the required material with them, tools, as well as processed stones. Mummenthey, thereupon, frequently got into difficulties with the commandants when he insisted that this merchandise should be paid for.
Q. Witness, I am not so much interested in the fact that material disappeared, but in the fact of whether you knew that the commandant formed what was called punitive details which wormed inside the plant on certain jobs, such as carrying heavy stones uselessly back and forth without the plant having any need for them. Do you know anything about that?
A. I know that after they had done their work the inmates, when they left the plant had to carry stones along with them for the camp; from the area of the plant they had to carry stones as far as the camp. That was stopped by Mummenthey, as the stones produced in the plants were after that not to be taken to the camp.
Q. Do you know anything about this letter of the "death-ladder", the Todesstiege?
A. No, I only heard about that when in prison in Dachau. I read something in the newspapers.
Q. You know nothing about what the actual punitive details were?
A. No, I know nothing about that.
Q. Now, let me continue with the questions concerning the inhumane treatment of inmates. The plants of the DEST, as you told us yesterday, paid certain moneys to camp commandants, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell the Court quite briefly in what manner this payment was carried out. Whether these transactions were made by means of cash payments and transfers, or, didn't you know about it?
A. Yes, I know about that. For all unskilled workers, four marks per man were paid in full. For skilled workers, six marks per head were sent per month to the camp administration.
Q. Did the inmate directly, or indirectly, receive any other benefits from the managements in the form of bonuses?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us more about that?
A. This was connected with the training of inmates. When Kaiser in 1940 stopped this program of training inmates as stone masons, then he suggested I believe, that inmates could be given a certain compensation in the form of bonuses.
On the basis of these vouchers, the inmates could go and buy for themselves in the camp canteen food, tobacco, and other items which were available there in wartime. These additional benefits came from the work management, and were given to the inmates.
Q. Did the DEST give through the managers other advantages to the work personnel, particularly, as far as the accommodations were concerned in the plants themselves?
A. Yes, in certain plants we had special halls where the inmates had their food. Also in all plants gloves were manufactured, because during wartime not every inmate had the necessary gloves. Also every plant had a shoe shop, where the damaged shoes could be repaired. Additionally we produced over one--thousand plates and things made from aluminum for the workers, to be paid for from our own exchequer.
Q. Will you tell us, witness, if the management of the DEST did everything within its power what a civilian enterprise would do for its workers?
A. Yes. The managers thought it was very important to have as many additional things as possible, because then you see the people would be more keen in their work.
Q. What attitude did Mummenthey take toward such suggestions?
A. He would also be very benevolent, and when we had discussions he always would point out to see it we find material in order to help the workers to start out as they should.
Q. Did Mummenthey in these discussion also point out that some other plant he had seen that special facilities for the workers were provided, and, that he recommended that these things should be imitated and done in other plants?
A. Yes, whenever he had inspected the plants, and he had seen that something had been established somewhere, which was good, he would issue a circular in which he told the other plant about it, so they also could follow such an advantage.
Q. Did Mummenthey in these efforts to look after the inmates come across difficulties on the part of commandants?
A. Yes, of course. It is needless to say - you cannot say needless from a human point of view - yes, I do mean it is needless to say, because the camp commandant followed up, as soon as Mummenthey as well as the work manager interfered in his sphere of duties, he would protest this interference. I should like in this connection to mention a case which I had experienced myself. The work management in Flossenburg one day went and inspected the food containers. This was reported to the commandant. The work management had at once to report to the commandant, and was put on the "carpet". He was told that he was not to interfere with such matters in the future.
Q. Was he threatened with anything, this work manager?
A. Yes.
Q. What was he threatened with?
A. That if he did this once more, and if he did not mind his own business, other punitive measures would be taken against him.
Q. Witness, do you know that in April 1942, Pohl issued an order whereby the commandants of camps became also the managers of the work plants, and that the work managers were purely their assistants?
A. Yes, I know that.
Q. I shall now hand you Document R-129, which is Exhibit No. 40, and I would like to tell the Court what effect this order had on the local management. Have you read it?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the effect of this order?
A: What I know is that in 1941 or 1942 the Camp Commandants were appointed managers of enterprises. As far as I know the effect was not a very good one as far as we were concerned. The Commandants continued to care very little for technicalities of an enterprise nor were they in a position to do so because any business matters and economic matters were a closed book to them and it was, therefore, much better if they did not interfere in such things. It was necessary and hoped at first that the mail of the enterprise should be studied by the Commandant but he discontinued that himself as he saw that he knew nothing about any business matters.
Q: But, quite generally did this not increase the power of the Commandants?
A: Yes, if did.
Q: My final questions. Now, witness, in the many years of your work you had occasion to observe the defendant Mummenthey?
A: Yes.
Q: You said yesterday that Memmenthey was a social minded person as far as inmates were concerned?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know anything about the efforts Mummenthey made to improve the lot of inmates as far as he breaking down of inmates into various categories was concerned? Did he make any suggestions about that whereby political prisoners were not to be kept with criminal inmates, that some labor camps were to be established for criminal inmates? Do you know anything about that?
A: Yes, I do. Memmenthey always made efforts for criminal and political inmates to be segregated from each other. As far as I know he succeeded in doing so in certain instances.
Q: Do you know that Dr. Engler, who was a witness here, went by order of Mummenthey and wrote a memorandum about that and sent it to his superior agencies? Do you know that?
A: Yes. I read the memorandum myself. At that time Mummenthey ordered Dr. Schneider, who was working in our legal department, to get Dr. Engler to give his impressions why the work done by an inmate was less than that done by a man sentenced by judicial administration. He wanted to find out what the causes were. That memorandum was passed on by Mummenthey to some agency.
Q: Is it correct that Memmenthey in all other cases, when he heard of bad conditions affecting the inmates, as far as the DEST was concerned of course, at once made objection to the agency concerned?
A: Yes. He always was extremely active in these things. Whenever he heard about those conditions he endeavored as far as he could to improve them.
Q: Did Mummenthey go to the bottom of these things or did he only act superficially?
A: He was well-known in his office as a man who worked with clock-like precision, if I may call it that. He was extremely energetic and whenever somebody made a suggestion and approached Mummenthey you could always be certain that he would do what he could to go to the bottom of these things. One can say that he really took the greatest care.
Q: Do you know, witness, anything about the fact that the defendant Memmenthey took part in plans which were aiming at the extermination of Jews?
A: No. I know nothing about that.
Q: Do you know anything about Mummenthey's attitude toward the Jews?
A: I am afraid I have no idea. We didn't discuss such matters.
Q: You didn't discuss them. Now, I have this question. In the last few days, when the defendant Volk was being cross examined by the Prosecution, he was shown a document which was concerned with what is known as Slate Oil Company. Do you know that term?
A: Yes.
Q: You were mentioned in that document as a manager of the Slate Oil Company.
A: Yes, I was that.
Q: Can you explain this to the Court?
A: Yes, I can. In 1943 when I was on an official trip a telegram by Pohl reached me that on such and such a date I was to go to Stuttgart. From there we went by train to Schoenberg where the Slate Oil Research Company had established a testing plant to see whether from slate oil could be made. After about six months I and a man called Captain von Kruedener, who was an expert in slate oil, were ordered to go and see Pohl and we were told that in the near future I was to be the manager of the German Slate Oil G.m.b.H. I told him at the time that I knew nothing about such matters and I asked not to be appointed manager. The defendant Pohl thereupon said that this was only a temporary solution and I was only the front man because shortly a man would be appointed permanent manager and I would not have to bother about the work, -- it was to be done later on. After about 2-3 months an elderly gentleman appeared who was called Frank, or something like that from Munich, who appointed. manager of the German Slate Oil Company in Schoenberg. I myself thereupon wrote to Dr. Volk on Staff W on several occasions and asked that my name be stricken from the Commercial Register.
After about six or 8 weeks I was informed by Dr. Hoffmann on the telephone that the gentleman who had been appointed manager of the German Slate Oil Company, G.m.b.H. had had a car accident in Munich and lost his life.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take the recess, Dr. FROESCHMANN.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for Mummenthey):
Q Witness, I now have a few concluding questions. I forgot to ask you one question before which referred to the additional food rations which the inmates received. Is it correct to say that the inmates in the factories of the DEST, upon the suggestion of the subiness manager of Mummenthey and their works manager, received additional food in the so-called heavy-heavy and long workers food?
Is that known to you?
A Yes, it is. As far as I know the enterprises had to state the number of all the workers who worked very heavily, and for a long time. And the camp administration requested those additional amounts of food from the food offices which were competent, and the food was added to their normal food.
Q Were the inmates placed in the same level in this connection as the civilian workers?
A Yes.
Q We also spoke about Mummenthey's attitude before, with reference to the inmates, but we spoke about it in general terms. I do not want you to speak too much in detail, but maybe you could tell this Tribunal in a very few words, based upon your own observations what Mummenthey's attitude was, generally speaking, with reference to the treatment of the inmates in the stone quarry enterprises.
A Herr Mummenthey himself was of a social character. If some man came to see him, regardless of whether he was a worker or an inmate, he would try to help him with suggestions and with advice. If it was within his power he tried to help at all times, and he did that at all times.
I explained to you before the recess with examples that he male a suggestion for the betterment within the enterprise, and he also succeeded in doing so
Q Would Mummenthey listen to suggestions made by you in the work administration? Could one speak with him about various things? Or how did he behave?
A Yes. He wanted to find the root of everything. If someone came to him with wishes or with some other matter in that connection he would have him tell his story, and he would also try to eliminate whatever there was to eliminate. He was ready to help in a social attitude, and one can even say that he had a soft, warm character.
Q You knew Mummenthey until the bitter end of May, 1945, when you were in a position to observe him. Did he ever speak with you about the fact that due to the ever-increasing bad situation of the DEST he was trying to withdraw from the DEST due to the situation of the war at the time?
AAccording to my knowledge, he stated that twice. Herr Mummenthey was not feeling very well. He was very nervous; he had to use a lot of medicine, and he was being given injections by his doctor. When he came back from conferences or official trips he was absolutely worn out and quite often, as I stated before, he could only pep himself up with pills or medicine. That was the only way he could keep up with his work.
Q Do you think that Mummenthey would have been in a position to resign from the enterprise of the DEST in the course of the years of the war?
A I doubt it very much. He was a soldier and he couldn't possibly have laid down his managerial capacity because this would have been punished as insubordination.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I have no further questions on the direct examination of this witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any examination by other Defense counsel? Apparently not.
The Prosecution may cross-examine -
DR. FROESCHMANN: Excuse me, Your Honor, but I was asked to act as a deputy for Dr. Gawlik, as Defense counsel for Volk, and to ask the witness three short questions which, if you don't mind, I will ask now.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN: (Deputizing for Dr. Gawlik):
Q Witness, the first question is, was Dr. Volk Chief of Staff W?
A No.
Q Then the Chief W, was that Volk?
A No.
Q Was Volk the official and constant representative or chief of Amtsgruppe W?
A Not that I know of.
DR. FROESCHMANN: That is all I wanted to ask. No further questions.
HEINZ SCHWARZ - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Witness, I don't think we -
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. McHaney, did you verify the translation of the one sentence in Exhibit 40?
MR. MC HANEY: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The word "no" should be there. The word "n-o" should be in it.
MR. MC HANEY: "No" in it, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We had the same document in the Milch Case, and I notice it contained the word "no", and the present translation makes no sense. Let the record indicate that under numeral five in Exhibit 40 the first sentence will read "There will be no limit to working hours."
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Witness, I don't think we got your birth date yesterday. What is it, please?
A Twelfth of March, 1909, in Bad Wiedenwerda, in Saxony.
Q Where are you now held in custody? That is, where were you held before you were brought to Nurnberg?
A From the 25th of May, 1945, to the 4th of June, 1945, I was in Foenrenbach. I am sorry, I made a mistake here. Let's see....
Q What camp did you come from to Nurnberg. I don't care to have the history.
A Dachau.
Q When did you join the Party?
A I joined the Party on the first of January, 1928. In 1939 I resigned, and in 1930 I rejoined the Party. I went back into the Party again.
Q Wait just a minute. Let's have that over again. I got a confusion in the dates. When did you first join? What year?
A January, 1928. I resigned in 1929, and I joined the Party again in 1930.
Q Witness, did you first join the Party in 1928?
A I answered your question. I joined the Party in 1928. I resigned in 1929, and I rejoined the Party in 1930.
Q We are getting a somewhat garbled translation, witness.
Do you recall what your Party Number was? I assume, if you joined that early, you must have been a Golden Party Badge holder. Is that right?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q You held the Golden Party Badge?
A Yes.
Q When did you join the SS?
A I joined the General-SS in 1938, and the Waffen-SS in June, 1941.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. McHaney, would you inquire, please, why he resigned in 1929?
MR. MC HANEY: Your switch, Your Honor, please, I can't hear you.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Will you inquire, Mr. McHaney, please, why he resigned in 1929. My curiosity is aroused.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Witness, will you tell the Tribunal the reason for your resigning from the party in 1929?
A There were personal reasons behind that. I had some difficulties with the Kreisleiter at the time because he was drinking a lot of alcohol.
Q Your only reason for resigning was that you had difficulties with the Kreisleiter?
A Yes, indeed.
Q And how did you happen to rejoin in 1930?
A I beg your pardon, I didn't understand the question.
Q How did you happen to rejoin in 1930?
A I joined the party again because at the time I was of the opinion that this party was the party which was to eliminate Communism and also could provide work for the workers best.
Q Well, your antipathy for the drunken Kreisleiter was somewhat dissipated by 1930, is that right?
A The Kreisleiter had been relieved of his duties.
Q What rank did you attain in the SS?
A I became SS-Unterscharfuehrer, of the Waffen-SS Hauptsturmfuehrer, that is to say technical leader. Technical officer, is not a special rank, but is a position. As soon as I had finished my work in the office where I was working I again automatically was demoted to the rank of SS-Unterscharfuehrer.
Q Well, but you attained the rank of Hauptsturmfuehrer, didn't you?
A Yes, indeed, Hauptsturmfuehrer "F" for technical officer.
Q That is the equivalent of a captain?
A Yes, indeed.
Q If I understood your testimony yesterday, you had a secondary schooling, education, is that right?
A Yes, a medium school.
Q You didn't go to college?
A I had a medium school education.
Q You didn't go to college, is that right?
A No, I didn't.
Q Now, you say you went with the DEST industry,in 1938?
A Yes, indeed, April, 1938.
Q And you were a technical expert on quarries?
A I stated before I was the man who worked in the business line of the sstone quarries, not as a technician. I spoke about it yesterday when describing my curriculum vitae that fifteen years before I joined the DEST I worked with a large stone factory firm in Saxony as a businessman there. I didn't have any technical knowledge, and I only had acquired my technical knowledge during all the inspection tours and the visits I made in different sstone quarries.
Q So it would be incorrect to say you had technical duties in connection with the stone quarries, is that right?
A No, I don't have any technical knowledge, only what I learned while visiting the factories.
Q Exactly what were your functions in the beginning, that is in 1939?
AAt the beginning I simply dealt with selling and purchasing, and I also dealt with simple office work. In 1939 I then took over the department sales for the granite stone quarries. In 1941 I also became the man in charge of the purchasing department, transportation, etc., for the granite stone quarries. I never did work for the business management of the brick factories.
Q Do you know whom you were subordinate to in 1938?
A Yes, I do. It was Herr Arenz and Herr Salpeter.
Q And when did Mummenthey come?
A Herr Mummenthey came in 1939. He was also assigned to Herr Salpeter. He worked with him, though at the time he was not absolutely independent. He had to do everything which Salpeter wanted as his chief at the time, and he had to do that by order of Salpeter. In the beginning he also dealt with business work and also with legal work in part.
Q Well, we won't quarrel about when Mummenthey first came, but isn't it true that he was a co-manager with Salpeter in 1939, about September?
A Yes, Mummenthey was a business manager in 1939. '39 or '40. I I believe it was '39 rather than '40.
Q And what position did Mummenthey occupy within Office III-A?
A III-A? He was nothing at all in III A. He was employed by the DEST, and he had been assigned to Salpeter as his collaborator, as a co-manager at the beginning, at first. Later on when he became the business manager he also dealt independently with part of the business, of course, later on when Dr. Salpeter left he became the chief.
Q You mean to say that Mummenthey was not a member of the Verwaltungshauptamt, didn't have any official position?
A Well, Mummenthey was the chief of office, but the term "Amtschef" or "Chief of Office" has to be looked upon by me as a fiction because in my opinion there had to be an office treasury and employees and officials who were paid by the state, and in the DEST there were no officials but simply employees and officials of the firm.
Q He was an Amtschef whether you look upon it as fiction or not, wasn't he?
A Yes, he was an amtschef.
Q Weren't you subordinate to Mummenthey too?
A Yes, I was subordinate to him.
Q Now, what DEST works existed in 1938 when you first came there?
AAt the beginning, as it was known due to my curriculum vitae that I had worked in stone quarries, I had to carry out orders for the works. If you want me to I can explain the whole thing from my memory, if you want me to.
Q You misunderstood the question, Witness. I asked you what stone quarries of DEST existed when you came there in 1938.
AAt the time the stone quarry area in Flossenburg had been leased by Herr Arenz. The factory itself didn't exist at the time. Only a small stone quarry existed which was then leased by the Reich, owned then by a man named Krapff who came from Flossenburg, and who in the meantime died.
Q In other words, you and the Defendant Mummenthey grew up with DEST, isn't that right?
A Yes, that is correct. I did the business work ever since the beginning. I helped along with the others.
Q And Flossenburg was just getting started when you arrived there, isn't that right, Flossenburg quarry?
A I was not in Flossenburg. Two technicians had been employed in Flossenburg who carried out the planning and were also organizing the establishment of its factories, seen from a technical point of view.
Q Didn't you and Mummenthey go to Flossenburg when you were just getting your plant underway there?
AAs far as I can recall I went there for the first time in 1939. I was there for one or two days at Flossenburg. That was the first time that I ever saw a granite quarry of the DEST there for the first time.
Q Mummenthey, do you know whether he went there in 1938?
A If he was in Flossenburg in 1938 I really didn't know. It could be possible, but in 1939 he must have been there on official trips.
Q He did go there in 1939, you know that?
A Would you repeat the question, please?
Q I say, you know that Mummenthey did go to Flossenburg in 1939?
A I don't know if for sure, but I assume that he had gone to Flossenburg on one occasion, 1939, because in 1939 Arenz and Dr. Salpeter were the business managers there, and he was only assigned to these two people as co-manager or collaborator. He was not quite - he was not to be held responsible for independent work.
Q Now, when did Mauthausen, when did the Mauthausen quarry start operation? It must have been sometime late in '38 since it is in Austria.
AAccording to my knowledge I believe it must have been in the summer of 1938, 1938.
Q Don't you know as a matter of fact that the reason they located the concentration camp at Mauthausen near Linz was because of these stone quarries which were there?
A That was not known to me at the time. It only became known to me when the factory was then established and barracks were also set up where the inmates were to be billeted. I only noticed at the beginning that the camp was at quite some distance from the stone quarry itself.
Q Well, you did learn though that Mauthausen was located where it actually was located because of the existence of the stone quarries there, isn't that right?
A If that is the only reason why it was established it really wasn't known to me.
Q I am not suggesting it was the only reason, but that was one of the reasons, wasn't it?
A That the inmates there worked in the stone quarries and performed work is a fact.
Q What was the next quarry opened up? We have Flossenburg and Mauthausen. When did they open up Gross-Rosen?
A Gross-Rosen, according to my knowledge, was purchased by the firm of Hay in the year of 1939 or 1940. The business manager at the time of the Hay firm, Herr Gutscha, was also taken over, and he was the technical manager of the stone quarries.
Q Well, DEST took over the Gross-Rosen quarry in 1939 or 1940, is that your recollection?
A 1939, '40. It was either the autumn of 1939 or then early in '40. I would say the autumn of 1939. the autumn of 1938.
Q Do you know when the concentration camp of Gross-Rosen was established?
A No, I don't. In the stone quarry at Gross-Rosen for a long period of time, for months and months, they only worked with civilian workers exclusively. It was also their intention to keep working with civilian workers at Gross-Rosen. Later on a concentration camp was established and inmates were then put to work in the stone quarries just like in any other stone quarry.
Q In other words, the concentration camp was established after DEST took over the quarry, that is right, isn't it?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q All right, when was the quarry at Natzweiler taken over by DEST?
A In 1940, in the autumn of 1940.
Q And I suppose that camp was not established until after the French campaign, is that right?
A I really can't recall the correct date, but I assume that it must have been in autumn 1940 that the first stone quarry was opened.
Q.- Well, there was not any concentration camp in Natzweiler very long before that quarry was taken over by DEST, was there, witness?
A.- That is not known to me, and the first time I was in Natzweiler was in the Autumn of 1941. At the beginning they also worked with civilian workers exclusively at Natzweiler, and so far as that goes very little work was done in the stone quarry of Natzweiler, because later on an armament works was carried out there.
Q.- Now, witness, didn't you, and didn't Mummenthey, and didn't Salpeter, and the rest of the men in Berlin office have anything to do with purchasing and developing these stone quarries?
A.- The development of and the establishment of the stone quarry, is that what you asked me?
Q.- That is right?
A.- The development of the stone quarry was carried out by the works management. That was a technical and administrative matter. That was the reason why there was a technician there at the stone quarry who would carry out the development and exploitation in accordance with the technical arrangements.
Q.- Well, witness, some one had to go to Mauthausen near Linz, and look over this stone quarry before they were bought. Some one had to make some decision who was going to work in the stone quarry; somebody had to decide about the price which was to be paid for the place. Do you know whether the defendant Mummenthey participated in any of those activities?
A.- No, I don't. Herr Arenz was still the business manager of the quarry, and Herr Arenz was at according to my knowledge, at Flossenburg, and several locations, and after that he was at Mauthausen and St. Georgen, respectively, and he carried out the transactions through the agency with the government. According to my knowledge no purchase was made, but according to my knowledge, apart from Gross-Rosen, the area was simply leased, and a certain amount of money was paid for that land that was leased.