Q Would Mummenthey listen to suggestions made by you in the work administration? Could one speak with him about various things? Or how did he behave?
A Yes. He wanted to find the root of everything. If someone came to him with wishes or with some other matter in that connection he would have him tell his story, and he would also try to eliminate whatever there was to eliminate. He was ready to help in a social attitude, and one can even say that he had a soft, warm character.
Q You knew Mummenthey until the bitter end of May, 1945, when you were in a position to observe him. Did he ever speak with you about the fact that due to the ever-increasing bad situation of the DEST he was trying to withdraw from the DEST due to the situation of the war at the time?
AAccording to my knowledge, he stated that twice. Herr Mummenthey was not feeling very well. He was very nervous; he had to use a lot of medicine, and he was being given injections by his doctor. When he came back from conferences or official trips he was absolutely worn out and quite often, as I stated before, he could only pep himself up with pills or medicine. That was the only way he could keep up with his work.
Q Do you think that Mummenthey would have been in a position to resign from the enterprise of the DEST in the course of the years of the war?
A I doubt it very much. He was a soldier and he couldn't possibly have laid down his managerial capacity because this would have been punished as insubordination.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I have no further questions on the direct examination of this witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any examination by other Defense counsel? Apparently not.
The Prosecution may cross-examine -
DR. FROESCHMANN: Excuse me, Your Honor, but I was asked to act as a deputy for Dr. Gawlik, as Defense counsel for Volk, and to ask the witness three short questions which, if you don't mind, I will ask now.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN: (Deputizing for Dr. Gawlik):
Q Witness, the first question is, was Dr. Volk Chief of Staff W?
A No.
Q Then the Chief W, was that Volk?
A No.
Q Was Volk the official and constant representative or chief of Amtsgruppe W?
A Not that I know of.
DR. FROESCHMANN: That is all I wanted to ask. No further questions.
HEINZ SCHWARZ - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Witness, I don't think we -
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. McHaney, did you verify the translation of the one sentence in Exhibit 40?
MR. MC HANEY: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The word "no" should be there. The word "n-o" should be in it.
MR. MC HANEY: "No" in it, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: We had the same document in the Milch Case, and I notice it contained the word "no", and the present translation makes no sense. Let the record indicate that under numeral five in Exhibit 40 the first sentence will read "There will be no limit to working hours."
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Witness, I don't think we got your birth date yesterday. What is it, please?
A Twelfth of March, 1909, in Bad Wiedenwerda, in Saxony.
Q Where are you now held in custody? That is, where were you held before you were brought to Nurnberg?
A From the 25th of May, 1945, to the 4th of June, 1945, I was in Foenrenbach. I am sorry, I made a mistake here. Let's see....
Q What camp did you come from to Nurnberg. I don't care to have the history.
A Dachau.
Q When did you join the Party?
A I joined the Party on the first of January, 1928. In 1939 I resigned, and in 1930 I rejoined the Party. I went back into the Party again.
Q Wait just a minute. Let's have that over again. I got a confusion in the dates. When did you first join? What year?
A January, 1928. I resigned in 1929, and I joined the Party again in 1930.
Q Witness, did you first join the Party in 1928?
A I answered your question. I joined the Party in 1928. I resigned in 1929, and I rejoined the Party in 1930.
Q We are getting a somewhat garbled translation, witness.
Do you recall what your Party Number was? I assume, if you joined that early, you must have been a Golden Party Badge holder. Is that right?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q You held the Golden Party Badge?
A Yes.
Q When did you join the SS?
A I joined the General-SS in 1938, and the Waffen-SS in June, 1941.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. McHaney, would you inquire, please, why he resigned in 1929?
MR. MC HANEY: Your switch, Your Honor, please, I can't hear you.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Will you inquire, Mr. McHaney, please, why he resigned in 1929. My curiosity is aroused.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Witness, will you tell the Tribunal the reason for your resigning from the party in 1929?
A There were personal reasons behind that. I had some difficulties with the Kreisleiter at the time because he was drinking a lot of alcohol.
Q Your only reason for resigning was that you had difficulties with the Kreisleiter?
A Yes, indeed.
Q And how did you happen to rejoin in 1930?
A I beg your pardon, I didn't understand the question.
Q How did you happen to rejoin in 1930?
A I joined the party again because at the time I was of the opinion that this party was the party which was to eliminate Communism and also could provide work for the workers best.
Q Well, your antipathy for the drunken Kreisleiter was somewhat dissipated by 1930, is that right?
A The Kreisleiter had been relieved of his duties.
Q What rank did you attain in the SS?
A I became SS-Unterscharfuehrer, of the Waffen-SS Hauptsturmfuehrer, that is to say technical leader. Technical officer, is not a special rank, but is a position. As soon as I had finished my work in the office where I was working I again automatically was demoted to the rank of SS-Unterscharfuehrer.
Q Well, but you attained the rank of Hauptsturmfuehrer, didn't you?
A Yes, indeed, Hauptsturmfuehrer "F" for technical officer.
Q That is the equivalent of a captain?
A Yes, indeed.
Q If I understood your testimony yesterday, you had a secondary schooling, education, is that right?
A Yes, a medium school.
Q You didn't go to college?
A I had a medium school education.
Q You didn't go to college, is that right?
A No, I didn't.
Q Now, you say you went with the DEST industry,in 1938?
A Yes, indeed, April, 1938.
Q And you were a technical expert on quarries?
A I stated before I was the man who worked in the business line of the sstone quarries, not as a technician. I spoke about it yesterday when describing my curriculum vitae that fifteen years before I joined the DEST I worked with a large stone factory firm in Saxony as a businessman there. I didn't have any technical knowledge, and I only had acquired my technical knowledge during all the inspection tours and the visits I made in different sstone quarries.
Q So it would be incorrect to say you had technical duties in connection with the stone quarries, is that right?
A No, I don't have any technical knowledge, only what I learned while visiting the factories.
Q Exactly what were your functions in the beginning, that is in 1939?
AAt the beginning I simply dealt with selling and purchasing, and I also dealt with simple office work. In 1939 I then took over the department sales for the granite stone quarries. In 1941 I also became the man in charge of the purchasing department, transportation, etc., for the granite stone quarries. I never did work for the business management of the brick factories.
Q Do you know whom you were subordinate to in 1938?
A Yes, I do. It was Herr Arenz and Herr Salpeter.
Q And when did Mummenthey come?
A Herr Mummenthey came in 1939. He was also assigned to Herr Salpeter. He worked with him, though at the time he was not absolutely independent. He had to do everything which Salpeter wanted as his chief at the time, and he had to do that by order of Salpeter. In the beginning he also dealt with business work and also with legal work in part.
Q Well, we won't quarrel about when Mummenthey first came, but isn't it true that he was a co-manager with Salpeter in 1939, about September?
A Yes, Mummenthey was a business manager in 1939. '39 or '40. I I believe it was '39 rather than '40.
Q And what position did Mummenthey occupy within Office III-A?
A III-A? He was nothing at all in III A. He was employed by the DEST, and he had been assigned to Salpeter as his collaborator, as a co-manager at the beginning, at first. Later on when he became the business manager he also dealt independently with part of the business, of course, later on when Dr. Salpeter left he became the chief.
Q You mean to say that Mummenthey was not a member of the Verwaltungshauptamt, didn't have any official position?
A Well, Mummenthey was the chief of office, but the term "Amtschef" or "Chief of Office" has to be looked upon by me as a fiction because in my opinion there had to be an office treasury and employees and officials who were paid by the state, and in the DEST there were no officials but simply employees and officials of the firm.
Q He was an Amtschef whether you look upon it as fiction or not, wasn't he?
A Yes, he was an amtschef.
Q Weren't you subordinate to Mummenthey too?
A Yes, I was subordinate to him.
Q Now, what DEST works existed in 1938 when you first came there?
AAt the beginning, as it was known due to my curriculum vitae that I had worked in stone quarries, I had to carry out orders for the works. If you want me to I can explain the whole thing from my memory, if you want me to.
Q You misunderstood the question, Witness. I asked you what stone quarries of DEST existed when you came there in 1938.
AAt the time the stone quarry area in Flossenburg had been leased by Herr Arenz. The factory itself didn't exist at the time. Only a small stone quarry existed which was then leased by the Reich, owned then by a man named Krapff who came from Flossenburg, and who in the meantime died.
Q In other words, you and the Defendant Mummenthey grew up with DEST, isn't that right?
A Yes, that is correct. I did the business work ever since the beginning. I helped along with the others.
Q And Flossenburg was just getting started when you arrived there, isn't that right, Flossenburg quarry?
A I was not in Flossenburg. Two technicians had been employed in Flossenburg who carried out the planning and were also organizing the establishment of its factories, seen from a technical point of view.
Q Didn't you and Mummenthey go to Flossenburg when you were just getting your plant underway there?
AAs far as I can recall I went there for the first time in 1939. I was there for one or two days at Flossenburg. That was the first time that I ever saw a granite quarry of the DEST there for the first time.
Q Mummenthey, do you know whether he went there in 1938?
A If he was in Flossenburg in 1938 I really didn't know. It could be possible, but in 1939 he must have been there on official trips.
Q He did go there in 1939, you know that?
A Would you repeat the question, please?
Q I say, you know that Mummenthey did go to Flossenburg in 1939?
A I don't know if for sure, but I assume that he had gone to Flossenburg on one occasion, 1939, because in 1939 Arenz and Dr. Salpeter were the business managers there, and he was only assigned to these two people as co-manager or collaborator. He was not quite - he was not to be held responsible for independent work.
Q Now, when did Mauthausen, when did the Mauthausen quarry start operation? It must have been sometime late in '38 since it is in Austria.
AAccording to my knowledge I believe it must have been in the summer of 1938, 1938.
Q Don't you know as a matter of fact that the reason they located the concentration camp at Mauthausen near Linz was because of these stone quarries which were there?
A That was not known to me at the time. It only became known to me when the factory was then established and barracks were also set up where the inmates were to be billeted. I only noticed at the beginning that the camp was at quite some distance from the stone quarry itself.
Q Well, you did learn though that Mauthausen was located where it actually was located because of the existence of the stone quarries there, isn't that right?
A If that is the only reason why it was established it really wasn't known to me.
Q I am not suggesting it was the only reason, but that was one of the reasons, wasn't it?
A That the inmates there worked in the stone quarries and performed work is a fact.
Q What was the next quarry opened up? We have Flossenburg and Mauthausen. When did they open up Gross-Rosen?
A Gross-Rosen, according to my knowledge, was purchased by the firm of Hay in the year of 1939 or 1940. The business manager at the time of the Hay firm, Herr Gutscha, was also taken over, and he was the technical manager of the stone quarries.
Q Well, DEST took over the Gross-Rosen quarry in 1939 or 1940, is that your recollection?
A 1939, '40. It was either the autumn of 1939 or then early in '40. I would say the autumn of 1939. the autumn of 1938.
Q Do you know when the concentration camp of Gross-Rosen was established?
A No, I don't. In the stone quarry at Gross-Rosen for a long period of time, for months and months, they only worked with civilian workers exclusively. It was also their intention to keep working with civilian workers at Gross-Rosen. Later on a concentration camp was established and inmates were then put to work in the stone quarries just like in any other stone quarry.
Q In other words, the concentration camp was established after DEST took over the quarry, that is right, isn't it?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q All right, when was the quarry at Natzweiler taken over by DEST?
A In 1940, in the autumn of 1940.
Q And I suppose that camp was not established until after the French campaign, is that right?
A I really can't recall the correct date, but I assume that it must have been in autumn 1940 that the first stone quarry was opened.
Q.- Well, there was not any concentration camp in Natzweiler very long before that quarry was taken over by DEST, was there, witness?
A.- That is not known to me, and the first time I was in Natzweiler was in the Autumn of 1941. At the beginning they also worked with civilian workers exclusively at Natzweiler, and so far as that goes very little work was done in the stone quarry of Natzweiler, because later on an armament works was carried out there.
Q.- Now, witness, didn't you, and didn't Mummenthey, and didn't Salpeter, and the rest of the men in Berlin office have anything to do with purchasing and developing these stone quarries?
A.- The development of and the establishment of the stone quarry, is that what you asked me?
Q.- That is right?
A.- The development of the stone quarry was carried out by the works management. That was a technical and administrative matter. That was the reason why there was a technician there at the stone quarry who would carry out the development and exploitation in accordance with the technical arrangements.
Q.- Well, witness, some one had to go to Mauthausen near Linz, and look over this stone quarry before they were bought. Some one had to make some decision who was going to work in the stone quarry; somebody had to decide about the price which was to be paid for the place. Do you know whether the defendant Mummenthey participated in any of those activities?
A.- No, I don't. Herr Arenz was still the business manager of the quarry, and Herr Arenz was at according to my knowledge, at Flossenburg, and several locations, and after that he was at Mauthausen and St. Georgen, respectively, and he carried out the transactions through the agency with the government. According to my knowledge no purchase was made, but according to my knowledge, apart from Gross-Rosen, the area was simply leased, and a certain amount of money was paid for that land that was leased.
Q.- In other words, according to your knowledge regarding Gross Rosen, the Gross-Rosen quarry was taken over in late 1939, or early in 1940, and, the Natzweiler quarry, it was taken over in 1940.
Those things were done without any participation of the co-manager of DEST, or the defendant Mimmenthey, is that your testimony?
A.- What I mean is, that the stone quarries at Flossenbuerg and Mauthausen were purchased or leased, respectively, without Mimmenthey's interest in them. While the stone quarry at Gross-Rosen and Natzweiler were purchased later under Mimmenthey's work, or at least with this knowledge.
Q.- All right, witness. What was your position in 1940 so far as the commercial registry was concerned. You were the head clerk, weren't you?
A.- In 1940, I was a Prokurist. I was appointed Prokurist. After that time I was the person authorized to handle the business.
Q.- What was your position in Office III-A, the predecessor of W-I?
A.- I was Departmental Chief, and later on Main Department Chief.
Q.- What was the file designation of your office in III-A?
A.- The Departmental Chief for business management in the Granith Quarries.
Q.- Witness, I asked you what was the file reference number. When you wrote a letter what file reference number did you type across the letter, when you were in Office III-A?
A.- The file number for my department was "W-I" with dash across"II".
Q.- When you were in the office of III-A, wasn't it "III-A/I TB"?
A.- I can not remember that. I don't know if those were the figures we used at the time, whatever I was working on.
Q.- You don't remember? What your file number was. You don't remember.
A.- No, not at the time, no.
Q.- Witness, isn't it the truth that you were the technical and commercial man for the quarries, just as Schoendorf was the technical and commercial man for the brick works?
A.- I was never a technical manager of the Granith-Quarries. I mentioned that before. I am not a technician, nor did I take any high school work in that field I simply went through a full commercial business training. That is the reason I can not be a technician.
Q.- Why isn't it true that Herr Schoendorf as technician rendered his chief activity for the brick works, and that you were technician for the Granith Works?
A.- The technician man for the stone works up to 1941 was a civilian employee Georg Gutschen. Gutschen came from a firm named Hay in GrossRosen, and he was taken over and then made as a civilian employee. He was a technician manager of Granith-Stone quarry. As Schoendorf on the other hand dealt as the technician manager of the brick works, and he had all the authority to develop the brick factories. Schoendorf was a diploma engineer, and he was the technician in the brick works.
Q.- Witness, I have in front of me Document NO-1032, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 427, in Book 16, on page 17, which shows the whole organizational plan for Office III-A, and, the only place I can find a place to fit you in is for the technical department for Granite quarries. There is nothing in here of any separate office for commercial work in connection with the Granith works. They had a technical department for the brick works, and I state to you that Schoendorf was in the brick works, and then they had you up in the office for the Granite works, and that was Office III-A-I-TB, is that right, witness?
A.- I have to stress that point again and again, that ever since the beginning to the end I worked for Granite works as only for the business work. In any case, in connection with the commercial work, either officially, or unofficially, I was not looked upon as a technician, nor was I used a technician, and I don't believe you will be able to introduce any document which will denote me as a technician. Schoendorf was the sole technician for the brick works, and after his resignation, a civilian worker, Georg Gutschen followed Schoendorf, and he, at the same time, became a technician for the Granite works.
Q.- Witness, you are not just denying you are a technical man for the Granite works, but you want this Court to believe that you had no responsibility in the way the work was carried out in the camps. That you just sold the bricks. Isn't that the reason why you are denying that you were technical man for the Granite works, witness?
A.- No, not at all.
Q.- Suppose I tell you, witness, that the defendant Mummenthey, for whom you are here testifying, as well as for yourself, I take it, said that you were the technical man, in his own affidavit. That is Document NO-2523, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 17, in Book I, on page 36, paragraph 4, and in this affidavit Mummenthey says, "I handled the commercial, legal and financial matters. Schoendorf handled the technical matters, and Schwarz the commercial and some technical matters." Then Mummenthey is wrong about that when he said you handled some technical matters?
A.- Well, it must be wrong. I never did deal with technical matters.
Q.- You mention that Salpeter left in 1941 and. that Mummenthey took this place as to Office W-I?
A.- Yes.
Q.- He became the first manager of the DEST?
A.- I did not get the question. Please repeat it.
Q.- That Mummenthey became the first manager of DEST in October 1941 when Salpeter left?
A.- Yes, absolutely, when Salpeter left Mummenthey became the Chief of Office W-I.
Q.- He was your boss both in W-I and in the DEST, wasn't he, witness?
A.- Yes.
Q.- He was your technical and military superior, wasn't he, witness?
A.- Well, in this all in a military respect. Schoendorf himself was a technical man in charge of the brick works, and in that particular case did not want to have anybody talk to him on anything, and he received special authority from Pohl to act independently as a technician in his profession.
Mummenthey, therefore, could not hardly get even mixed up in matters strictly pertaining to the brick works, because Schoendorg had had that right delegated to him to act independently, and to plan independently, and to work independently.
Q.- Now, witness, will you tell us one example where Schoendorf went to Pohl over Mummenthey's head. Will you tell us one example?
A.- Well, in similar cases that occurred quite often. Sometimes a letter came and was addressed to the business manager, Herr Schoendorf, who dealt with anything in connection with bricks. That letter was normally speaking sent to Mummenthey, if he was competent, and then to defendant Pohl for his decision - Pohl's decision. Here the defendant Pohl in that case, would never put the "RW-L" on it, but later he would put "RSHFF" on it, which means, the "R" means conference or discussion with "R", and "SHFF" means discussions with Schoendorf, as Schoendorf went to see the defendant Pohl with a letter in order to hold a conference, and Mummenthey himself might even only know about this conference and discussions, after they had already occurred. Schoendorg, I should have said, had a special position in the firm, which was known to both of us and other people.
Q.- Was Schoendorf a pretty bad man. You seem to be so anxious, and, I suppose that Mummenthey will to the best ability get him off by himself, and, that I am rather inclined to believe, he must have connected with some pretty bad things, witness. Can you enlighten us about that.
A Yes, I can. Actually during my entire activity with the German Earth & Stone Works I never did get along with Schondorf. His character was entirely different than mine. In that connection it was because he was a technician and that was the reason why quite often difficulties arose between Schondorf and myself. I never did have a personal relationship with him.
Q A rough, ruthless man?
A Well, how am I to say? His attitude was different than mine. I never did look on him as one who had social ideas and that is the reason why we had difficulties.
Q Didn't have social ideas? I guess you mean with respect to inmates. Did you gain the impression that he worked the inmates under poor working conditions, longer hours, not sufficient clothing, and insufficient food in the brick works as compared with the granite quarries?
A No, I can't say that either because the entire attitude toward the people differed. Whether inmates or civilians that was something entirely against my principle. That was why from the beginning on I had a special antipathy against him.
Q He was not so socially minded as yourself and the defendant Mummenthey, is that right?
A I really couldn't speak of the social attitude as far as Schondorf is concerned but both the male and female employees of his were of the same opinion as I am.
Q Now in February 1942 when the WVHA was finally formed as it existed until the end of the War, Mummenthey was chief of Office W-I, wasn't he?
A Yes, quite so.
Q And he was also the first manager of DEST?
A Yes.
Q Now, did your position change in 1942? Did I understand your testimony yesterday to be that you also became a second or third Manager of DEST.
A In 1942 I became the third business manager for the business management of the granite works. That was after Oppenbeck had left.
Q But, if we look at the Commercial Register for 1942, and thereafter, we are going to find your name as business manager, are we witness?
A I am entered in the Commercial Register in 1942. I can't swear to that. Maybe it reads the autumn of 1941.
Q You were business manager, the third business manager?
A Yes.
Q And Schondorf was the 2nd business manager?
A Yes, indeed.
Q But, in spite of that fact the defendant Mummenthey was your military superior in Office W-I and your business superior in DEST, isn't that right?
A Well, superior -- I told you before that when there were fundamental decisions I depended on the decision of Mummenthey while Schondorf, as I stated before, had a special position and did not need Mummenthey's decision before he could make his decision. Schondorf had a special right. I did not have that.
Q Wasn't this granite quarry located at Marburg? What concentration camp was located there?
A Marburg, an der Drau, (South Steiermark).
Q Well, what was the concentration camp there? I have never heard of one by the name of Marburg.
A In Marburg they only worked civilian workers until the end.
Q Never used any inmates in Marburg?
A No. No.
Q What about the granite works in Blizin?
A Where?
Q B-l-i-z-i-n?
A Oh, Blizin. I see, Blizin is the name of the place. Blizin was a small stone quarry where small stones were made. Personally I didn't know Blizin but I know a small number of inmates were employed there for small things. That factory, by the name of Blizin, was a special enterprise and worked in the summer months only.
Q Where was that located? In Poland?
A No, it was near Cracow or Auschwitz.
Q Well, that's in Poland isn't it?
A That was the Government General at that time. Yes, Poland.
Q And you never were there?
A No, I wasn't.
Q So you don't know whether they employed Jews there, do you?
A No, I don't.
Q And did you say that they closed down operating? They didn't continue up until the end of the war?
A Yes, the work was ceased and even prior to that it was difficult to work. The manager was unable to receive material, apparently, and there were no orders. That, according to my knowledge and belief, was in the autumn of 1944 when the enterprise was closed. It would be interesting to state you cannot make a comparison between our granite works in Flossenburg or Mauthausen because in Blizin this was simply a small stone quarry which, as far as we were concerned, we only used people there when orders were to be taken care of urgently.
Q And you had a gravel pit at Auschwitz?
A In Auschwitz we did not have a gravel pit. In Auschwitz we simply had automatic dredges to take gravel out of the river bed to use in concrete. We never had a gravel pit there.
Q You had this gravel dredging operation in Auschwitz, is that right?
A No, I told you we didn't have any dredging operation. I told you we had an entirely different thing. No inmates were employed. We had all civilian workers.
Q No inmates used in Auschwitz, is that right?
A No, for this enterprise which I mentioned before no inmates but only a small commandature of workers were used successively. They were using 30 to 40 at a time.
Q That's the only thing you had at Auschwitz, is that right? You are sure about that?
A Yes, I am quite sure.
Q You are also sure you didn't use any inmates there?
A No, we only used those 30 to 40 people who were working on the river dredging.
Q And they were free laborers, that's right, isn't it?
A Yes they were.
Q How many times have you been in Auschwitz?
A During the entire time of the War only two or three times. I was there for 1/2 to 3/4 hours. Came by the evening train and went back by the evening train.
Q Three times at the most, is that what you want to say?
A Three times at the most, yes. During my entire activity with DEST.
Q And when did you go there, do you remember?
A Well, that must have been once a year, 1941, 1942, 1943.
Q Who did you go with?
AAlone. I would take the train to Kattowitz and from there Herr Rupprecht who used to be the works manager, picked me up and then we discussed various things in his office, go see the river dredger installation, inspected the works, and after a complete discussion went back again.
Q I suppose you are going to tell us you didn't even go to the camp, is that right?
A No, of course, I didn't. Wouldn't have been able to go there.
Q Don't know Hoess at all? Never met him?
A I don't get that.
Q You don't know Rudolf Hoess?
A No.
Q How far was this gravel dredging operation from Auschwitz or whatever it was. I am not quite clear what you had there but how far away from the camp was it?
A This river gravel excavation was on two points of the river Sola. From Auschwitz up to the point where the excavation was being done it was approximately 2 to 3 kilometers. Usually we would go there in a sedan.
Q Did you ever hear that they were killing Jews in Auschwitz, witness?
A Yes. I heard about it here while in my captivity.
Q Never heard about that before you got to Nurnberg, did you?
A No.
Q Ever see any smoke over the camp of Auschwitz?
A How am I to understand this?
A Well, witness, we have heard that people in the little village of Auschwitz adjacent to the camp knew that Jews were being murdered there and that bodies were being cremated and that a heavy fog of smoke hovered over the camp for days. I just wondered if you noticed that.
A I never noticed that. If you could find out here how far the river and the office were apart then you would possible be able to find out that the camp itself was quite some distance both from the office and the river excavation operation.
Q Ever go to the granite pit at Treblinka, witness?
A I was never in Treblinka.
Q Never were there? Well, who inspected that plant for DEST?
A Herr Rupprecht approached us in writing and informed us that he had quite a few orders for concrete and gravel for concrete for the Government General. And now I am speaking about a granite pit which was offered him, it was near Treblinka allegedly. He said he had large orders from both these firms and the Reichsbahn concerning material and according to my knowledge he worked for a few months. The work had to be ceased quite soon because there was no water at Treblinka and drilling for water incurred some difficulty. That was the reason why gravel could not be transported by steam engine.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess Mr. McHaney.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.