Q.- In other words, according to your knowledge regarding Gross Rosen, the Gross-Rosen quarry was taken over in late 1939, or early in 1940, and, the Natzweiler quarry, it was taken over in 1940.
Those things were done without any participation of the co-manager of DEST, or the defendant Mimmenthey, is that your testimony?
A.- What I mean is, that the stone quarries at Flossenbuerg and Mauthausen were purchased or leased, respectively, without Mimmenthey's interest in them. While the stone quarry at Gross-Rosen and Natzweiler were purchased later under Mimmenthey's work, or at least with this knowledge.
Q.- All right, witness. What was your position in 1940 so far as the commercial registry was concerned. You were the head clerk, weren't you?
A.- In 1940, I was a Prokurist. I was appointed Prokurist. After that time I was the person authorized to handle the business.
Q.- What was your position in Office III-A, the predecessor of W-I?
A.- I was Departmental Chief, and later on Main Department Chief.
Q.- What was the file designation of your office in III-A?
A.- The Departmental Chief for business management in the Granith Quarries.
Q.- Witness, I asked you what was the file reference number. When you wrote a letter what file reference number did you type across the letter, when you were in Office III-A?
A.- The file number for my department was "W-I" with dash across"II".
Q.- When you were in the office of III-A, wasn't it "III-A/I TB"?
A.- I can not remember that. I don't know if those were the figures we used at the time, whatever I was working on.
Q.- You don't remember? What your file number was. You don't remember.
A.- No, not at the time, no.
Q.- Witness, isn't it the truth that you were the technical and commercial man for the quarries, just as Schoendorf was the technical and commercial man for the brick works?
A.- I was never a technical manager of the Granith-Quarries. I mentioned that before. I am not a technician, nor did I take any high school work in that field I simply went through a full commercial business training. That is the reason I can not be a technician.
Q.- Why isn't it true that Herr Schoendorf as technician rendered his chief activity for the brick works, and that you were technician for the Granith Works?
A.- The technician man for the stone works up to 1941 was a civilian employee Georg Gutschen. Gutschen came from a firm named Hay in GrossRosen, and he was taken over and then made as a civilian employee. He was a technician manager of Granith-Stone quarry. As Schoendorf on the other hand dealt as the technician manager of the brick works, and he had all the authority to develop the brick factories. Schoendorf was a diploma engineer, and he was the technician in the brick works.
Q.- Witness, I have in front of me Document NO-1032, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 427, in Book 16, on page 17, which shows the whole organizational plan for Office III-A, and, the only place I can find a place to fit you in is for the technical department for Granite quarries. There is nothing in here of any separate office for commercial work in connection with the Granith works. They had a technical department for the brick works, and I state to you that Schoendorf was in the brick works, and then they had you up in the office for the Granite works, and that was Office III-A-I-TB, is that right, witness?
A.- I have to stress that point again and again, that ever since the beginning to the end I worked for Granite works as only for the business work. In any case, in connection with the commercial work, either officially, or unofficially, I was not looked upon as a technician, nor was I used a technician, and I don't believe you will be able to introduce any document which will denote me as a technician. Schoendorf was the sole technician for the brick works, and after his resignation, a civilian worker, Georg Gutschen followed Schoendorf, and he, at the same time, became a technician for the Granite works.
Q.- Witness, you are not just denying you are a technical man for the Granite works, but you want this Court to believe that you had no responsibility in the way the work was carried out in the camps. That you just sold the bricks. Isn't that the reason why you are denying that you were technical man for the Granite works, witness?
A.- No, not at all.
Q.- Suppose I tell you, witness, that the defendant Mummenthey, for whom you are here testifying, as well as for yourself, I take it, said that you were the technical man, in his own affidavit. That is Document NO-2523, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 17, in Book I, on page 36, paragraph 4, and in this affidavit Mummenthey says, "I handled the commercial, legal and financial matters. Schoendorf handled the technical matters, and Schwarz the commercial and some technical matters." Then Mummenthey is wrong about that when he said you handled some technical matters?
A.- Well, it must be wrong. I never did deal with technical matters.
Q.- You mention that Salpeter left in 1941 and. that Mummenthey took this place as to Office W-I?
A.- Yes.
Q.- He became the first manager of the DEST?
A.- I did not get the question. Please repeat it.
Q.- That Mummenthey became the first manager of DEST in October 1941 when Salpeter left?
A.- Yes, absolutely, when Salpeter left Mummenthey became the Chief of Office W-I.
Q.- He was your boss both in W-I and in the DEST, wasn't he, witness?
A.- Yes.
Q.- He was your technical and military superior, wasn't he, witness?
A.- Well, in this all in a military respect. Schoendorf himself was a technical man in charge of the brick works, and in that particular case did not want to have anybody talk to him on anything, and he received special authority from Pohl to act independently as a technician in his profession.
Mummenthey, therefore, could not hardly get even mixed up in matters strictly pertaining to the brick works, because Schoendorg had had that right delegated to him to act independently, and to plan independently, and to work independently.
Q.- Now, witness, will you tell us one example where Schoendorf went to Pohl over Mummenthey's head. Will you tell us one example?
A.- Well, in similar cases that occurred quite often. Sometimes a letter came and was addressed to the business manager, Herr Schoendorf, who dealt with anything in connection with bricks. That letter was normally speaking sent to Mummenthey, if he was competent, and then to defendant Pohl for his decision - Pohl's decision. Here the defendant Pohl in that case, would never put the "RW-L" on it, but later he would put "RSHFF" on it, which means, the "R" means conference or discussion with "R", and "SHFF" means discussions with Schoendorf, as Schoendorf went to see the defendant Pohl with a letter in order to hold a conference, and Mummenthey himself might even only know about this conference and discussions, after they had already occurred. Schoendorg, I should have said, had a special position in the firm, which was known to both of us and other people.
Q.- Was Schoendorf a pretty bad man. You seem to be so anxious, and, I suppose that Mummenthey will to the best ability get him off by himself, and, that I am rather inclined to believe, he must have connected with some pretty bad things, witness. Can you enlighten us about that.
A Yes, I can. Actually during my entire activity with the German Earth & Stone Works I never did get along with Schondorf. His character was entirely different than mine. In that connection it was because he was a technician and that was the reason why quite often difficulties arose between Schondorf and myself. I never did have a personal relationship with him.
Q A rough, ruthless man?
A Well, how am I to say? His attitude was different than mine. I never did look on him as one who had social ideas and that is the reason why we had difficulties.
Q Didn't have social ideas? I guess you mean with respect to inmates. Did you gain the impression that he worked the inmates under poor working conditions, longer hours, not sufficient clothing, and insufficient food in the brick works as compared with the granite quarries?
A No, I can't say that either because the entire attitude toward the people differed. Whether inmates or civilians that was something entirely against my principle. That was why from the beginning on I had a special antipathy against him.
Q He was not so socially minded as yourself and the defendant Mummenthey, is that right?
A I really couldn't speak of the social attitude as far as Schondorf is concerned but both the male and female employees of his were of the same opinion as I am.
Q Now in February 1942 when the WVHA was finally formed as it existed until the end of the War, Mummenthey was chief of Office W-I, wasn't he?
A Yes, quite so.
Q And he was also the first manager of DEST?
A Yes.
Q Now, did your position change in 1942? Did I understand your testimony yesterday to be that you also became a second or third Manager of DEST.
A In 1942 I became the third business manager for the business management of the granite works. That was after Oppenbeck had left.
Q But, if we look at the Commercial Register for 1942, and thereafter, we are going to find your name as business manager, are we witness?
A I am entered in the Commercial Register in 1942. I can't swear to that. Maybe it reads the autumn of 1941.
Q You were business manager, the third business manager?
A Yes.
Q And Schondorf was the 2nd business manager?
A Yes, indeed.
Q But, in spite of that fact the defendant Mummenthey was your military superior in Office W-I and your business superior in DEST, isn't that right?
A Well, superior -- I told you before that when there were fundamental decisions I depended on the decision of Mummenthey while Schondorf, as I stated before, had a special position and did not need Mummenthey's decision before he could make his decision. Schondorf had a special right. I did not have that.
Q Wasn't this granite quarry located at Marburg? What concentration camp was located there?
A Marburg, an der Drau, (South Steiermark).
Q Well, what was the concentration camp there? I have never heard of one by the name of Marburg.
A In Marburg they only worked civilian workers until the end.
Q Never used any inmates in Marburg?
A No. No.
Q What about the granite works in Blizin?
A Where?
Q B-l-i-z-i-n?
A Oh, Blizin. I see, Blizin is the name of the place. Blizin was a small stone quarry where small stones were made. Personally I didn't know Blizin but I know a small number of inmates were employed there for small things. That factory, by the name of Blizin, was a special enterprise and worked in the summer months only.
Q Where was that located? In Poland?
A No, it was near Cracow or Auschwitz.
Q Well, that's in Poland isn't it?
A That was the Government General at that time. Yes, Poland.
Q And you never were there?
A No, I wasn't.
Q So you don't know whether they employed Jews there, do you?
A No, I don't.
Q And did you say that they closed down operating? They didn't continue up until the end of the war?
A Yes, the work was ceased and even prior to that it was difficult to work. The manager was unable to receive material, apparently, and there were no orders. That, according to my knowledge and belief, was in the autumn of 1944 when the enterprise was closed. It would be interesting to state you cannot make a comparison between our granite works in Flossenburg or Mauthausen because in Blizin this was simply a small stone quarry which, as far as we were concerned, we only used people there when orders were to be taken care of urgently.
Q And you had a gravel pit at Auschwitz?
A In Auschwitz we did not have a gravel pit. In Auschwitz we simply had automatic dredges to take gravel out of the river bed to use in concrete. We never had a gravel pit there.
Q You had this gravel dredging operation in Auschwitz, is that right?
A No, I told you we didn't have any dredging operation. I told you we had an entirely different thing. No inmates were employed. We had all civilian workers.
Q No inmates used in Auschwitz, is that right?
A No, for this enterprise which I mentioned before no inmates but only a small commandature of workers were used successively. They were using 30 to 40 at a time.
Q That's the only thing you had at Auschwitz, is that right? You are sure about that?
A Yes, I am quite sure.
Q You are also sure you didn't use any inmates there?
A No, we only used those 30 to 40 people who were working on the river dredging.
Q And they were free laborers, that's right, isn't it?
A Yes they were.
Q How many times have you been in Auschwitz?
A During the entire time of the War only two or three times. I was there for 1/2 to 3/4 hours. Came by the evening train and went back by the evening train.
Q Three times at the most, is that what you want to say?
A Three times at the most, yes. During my entire activity with DEST.
Q And when did you go there, do you remember?
A Well, that must have been once a year, 1941, 1942, 1943.
Q Who did you go with?
AAlone. I would take the train to Kattowitz and from there Herr Rupprecht who used to be the works manager, picked me up and then we discussed various things in his office, go see the river dredger installation, inspected the works, and after a complete discussion went back again.
Q I suppose you are going to tell us you didn't even go to the camp, is that right?
A No, of course, I didn't. Wouldn't have been able to go there.
Q Don't know Hoess at all? Never met him?
A I don't get that.
Q You don't know Rudolf Hoess?
A No.
Q How far was this gravel dredging operation from Auschwitz or whatever it was. I am not quite clear what you had there but how far away from the camp was it?
A This river gravel excavation was on two points of the river Sola. From Auschwitz up to the point where the excavation was being done it was approximately 2 to 3 kilometers. Usually we would go there in a sedan.
Q Did you ever hear that they were killing Jews in Auschwitz, witness?
A Yes. I heard about it here while in my captivity.
Q Never heard about that before you got to Nurnberg, did you?
A No.
Q Ever see any smoke over the camp of Auschwitz?
A How am I to understand this?
A Well, witness, we have heard that people in the little village of Auschwitz adjacent to the camp knew that Jews were being murdered there and that bodies were being cremated and that a heavy fog of smoke hovered over the camp for days. I just wondered if you noticed that.
A I never noticed that. If you could find out here how far the river and the office were apart then you would possible be able to find out that the camp itself was quite some distance both from the office and the river excavation operation.
Q Ever go to the granite pit at Treblinka, witness?
A I was never in Treblinka.
Q Never were there? Well, who inspected that plant for DEST?
A Herr Rupprecht approached us in writing and informed us that he had quite a few orders for concrete and gravel for concrete for the Government General. And now I am speaking about a granite pit which was offered him, it was near Treblinka allegedly. He said he had large orders from both these firms and the Reichsbahn concerning material and according to my knowledge he worked for a few months. The work had to be ceased quite soon because there was no water at Treblinka and drilling for water incurred some difficulty. That was the reason why gravel could not be transported by steam engine.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess Mr. McHaney.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 30 July 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HEINZ GERHARD FRANZ SCHWARZ - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Witness, before the recess you had testified that you went to the gravel-dredging operation of DEST at Auschwitz in 1941, '42 and '43, and that there were no inmates employed there. Who sent you on those trips; did the Defendant Mummenthey?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you report back to him?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. I want to put a document to you by the Defendant Mummenthey. If the Tribunal please, this is in Book XVI on Page 63, Document NO-2155, Prosecution's Exhibit 441. Witness, this is memorandum signed by the Defendant Mummenthey dated August, 1943, and it is to Staff W. It says: "The following plants and work shops of my department are employing prisoners, listed under the subnumber 10, in Upper Silesian Gravel Works, Auschwitz." What do you have to say about that, Witness? There is apparently a contradiction between your observations at Auschwitz and the Defendant Mummenthey's memorandum. Mummenthey says there were prisoners employed in the gravel works at Auschwitz.
A. I believe I have been misunderstood. I said before that in Auschwitz there was a permanent detachment of about thirty to fifty men which looked after the railroad track between the works and the station, and that detachment of thirty to forty men consisted of inmates.
I said that before.
Q. And these were prisoners, were they, Witness?
A. Yes.
Q. And then it is correct to say that DEST did employ prisoners in the gravel works at Auschwitz, didn't they, Witness?
A. The inmates worked on the railroad track, yes.
Q. Are you prepared to tell this Tribunal that those inmates from Auschwitz were not used, Witness?
A. Not actually in the gravel dredging work or operation. No inmates were used there as far as I know.
Q. Witness, let's confine ourselves to the inmates you now admit were used on the railroad track, or wherever else, were they Jews or weren't they?
A. Yes.
Q. And your testimony earlier that you did not know any place were Jews were used in the operation of the DEST enterprises was not correct, was it, Witness?
A. May I ask you to repeat that question. I am afraid I haven't understood it.
Q. We will just pass that.... I said your testimony earlier that you did not know of any Jewish inmates being used by the DEST enterprise was not correct, was it, Witness?
A. Why, I didn't mean by that the thirty or forty men were Jews.
Q. Were these thirty or forty inmates used on the railroad tracks at Auschwitz Jews or not Jews?
A. I don't know. I didn't see them personally, and we received no reports about them. When the monthly reports reached us, all it said was how many people were employed, differentiating civilians from inmates.
To what category or religion they belonged these reports did not say.
Q. You don't know about any inmates having been killed in connection with the gravel operation in Auschwitz?
A. No, I don't know about that.
Q. Who was the DEST works manager in the Auschwitz gravel operation?
A. A man called Rupprecht.
Q. Where did he live?
A. In Auschwitz.
Q. But you never were in Auschwitz?
A. Yes, I went there twice or three time, which I said before.
Q. Not in the camp itself?
A. No, not in the camp. I only went to the offices of DEST and saw Rupprecht who was then manager.
Q. Did Rupprecht live in the camp itself?
A. No, he had a house, a private house where he had taken an apartment, and there he lived with a family. Rupprecht, incidentally, was a civilian engineer by profession.
Q. You testified you never did go to the gravel operation at Treblinka?
A. I did not say that. I said that the actual gravel dregging operation I saw when I visited there.
Q. You have actually been to Treblinka, is that correct?
A. No, no, I was in Auschwitz.
Q. And you have never been to Treblinka?
A. No.
Q. Do you know anything about the operation there?
A. No, I know nothing about that. From the monthly reports which came in now and then, it became clear that the operation had to be discontinued there because, as I described before, water conditions were such as to make the continuance of the operation impossible.
Q. And when was it discontinued?
A. In '33 or '34 -- I think it must have been '34.
Q. Do you know whether there was a camp in Treblinka?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know that at Globocnik the higher SS and police leader had a number of camps under his control in the area of Lublin, one of which was Treblinka?
A. All that I know is that the defendant Mummenthey once told me that there were in the government general certain camps which were not under the WVHA. What sort of camps they were, I don't know. The inmates were supposed to be there who were not under the concentration camp system under the WVHA. Whom they were under, I don't know.
Q. Mummenthey didn't tell you they were Jewish extermination camps, did he, witness?
A. No, he didn't tell me that.
Q. You knew that Osti was operating in the same area, didn't you, witness?
A. The Osti? What do you mean "Osti"?
Q. You never heard of the Osti Industry, is that right?
A. No, I know nothing about that at all. I heard of that once in connection -- I don't know whether it was a firm or a group of firms, and I don't know to this day.
Q. And you don't know that the Osti also folded up at the end of 1943 just like the Treblinka gravel works did, do you, witness?
A. I told you I know nothing about Osti. I heard the name Osti in a conference, but what it was, what sort of an institution, or whether it was a firm, I don't know to this day.
Q. I suppose you don't know that the real reason that Treblinka gravel pit folded up was because they murdered all the Jews that were operating it? Do you know that, witness?
A. I don't know that at all.
Q. Now, you said that you made inspections of all the DEST granit quarries twice a year, is that right?
A. Yes, twice or three times a year. Either I went to the plants in order to have commercial conferences or else one of the employees of the plant came to Berlin to have conferences. We changed around.
Q. How long did you stay in the camps when you made these inspection trips?
A. When I went to Flossenbuerg or to any other of the granit works, I used to take the night express train to Berlin and arrived in the morning at Weiden, Linz, or Stregau, and on the same day I went to the plant, conferred with the works manager about my duties; and in almost all cases, I went back the same evening by train. I can remember that in Flossenbuerg throughout the time of my activities, I stayed the night once or twice, and that can be proved because I stayed in the old inn in the town of Floss.
Q. You never did stay in the concentration camp itself?
A. No, never. When I went to Flossenbuerg or St. Georgen, I had to report to the camp commandant which was my duty as a subordinate because after all I was a Hauptsturmfuehrer, and it was my duty, so to speak, to say good morning to him. Any official matters I did not have to discuss with him because he was not competent to discuss anything connected with the enterprises. I have never entered a camp.
Q. Well, now, your last sentence leaves me in a state of confusion. Did you actually go inside the camp, or didn't you?
A. No.
Q. Well, did the camp commandant come out and meet you at the gate when you paid your respects?
A. Either we met in the plant, or I looked him up in his office. The office itself is not part of the camp, that is part of the commandant's office area. This is where the offices and the SS dwellings are located. Either he welcomed me downstairs in the plant, or I looked him up at his office upstairs.
Q. And your testimony to the Tribunal is that you have never been actually inside a concentration camp, is that right, except for your sejourn down to Dachau?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, then, you never did inspect the living quarters of the inmates who were working in the DEST enterprises, did you?
A. I never went to any of the living barracks or any of the camps themselves.
Q. So you can't deny what has been testified here that the inmates were frequently sleeping three or four to the same bunk, can you, witness?
A. I can tell you nothing about that because I did not inspect the camps?
Q. And you know nothing whatever about how much heat these people got in their barracks during the winter, do you, witness?
A. I know nothing about that.
Q. Where did these inmates eat, witness, do you know anything about that?
A. The inmates who worked in our enterprises ate in a special hut which was called the dining hut.
Q. Where was the dining hut, witness?
A. On the area of our plants.
Q. That was not inside the camp?
A. No, no, inside our plant.
Q. Is it true that in a number of operations the inmates had to walk back to the camp for the noon meal, witness?
A. Possibly at the beginning of 1938 or '39 that may have been so, but that was discontinued because of the long march. In '38 or the beginning of '39 that may have been so, but from that time onwards, the food was taken over in containers on trucks to the plant where the meals were taken in the dining house.
Q. And did you ever inspect that food they got?
A. I myself didn't. I only described this morning how a works manager in Flossenburg who wanted to inspect the food and actually inspected it, and thereupon got himself into trouble with Herr Kuenzler, the camp commandant of Flossenbuerg, who was later on dismissed.
Q. Well, do you mean you were afraid to inspect the food, is that what you are testifying to?
A. The camp commandant always maintained to inspect the food would amount to interfering with his duties and was none of our business.
Q. You therefore didn't concern yourself at all on these inspection trips with the quality and quantify of food which the inmate workers received, that is correct, is it?
A. I asked the managers what the food was like, and as a matter of principle, I received the information that the inmates were being fed decently and in some cases even adequately. That, of course, there was not so much meat as a normal worker would receive in peace-time. I heard that, too, of course, but the managers kept assuring me that the inmates were being given adequate and tasty food. Also, they received only the noon meal in our plants. The morning and evening meals were taken in the camps, after they had done their work or before they had done their work.
Q. And do you know about what they got for breakfast and dinner?
A. All I know is that when we started an armament project in our plants, the inmates got a special break in the morning of 10 to 20 minutes. They got 200 grams of bread, 50 to 20 grams of margarine, and some sausage.
Q. Well, all you can testify to about the food is that you were told by the plant manager that the inmates in his opinion were fed decently and in some few cases adequately?
A. That is what the works managers have told me, yes.
Q. What about their clothing, did you actually inspect their clothing yourself and satisfy yourself that these people were properly clothed, witness?
A. I saw what they were wearing. In Summer they were in slacks and a coat and a cap; and in Winter, the same clothes plus a winter overcoat from the same material. Gloves, were in some cases not available toward the end, which is the reason why we asked the works managers to manufacture gloves from old material, which they did. Moreover, we also attempted to obtain shes and other items such as rubber boots which was also done.
Q. Well, are you prepared to testify that the clothing was entirely adequate, witness?
A. No, I wouldn't be able to say that. In Summer time it was entirely adequate. During the Autumn, when it became cold, it was no longer adequate in my opinion.
Q. Well, did they have any underwear on?
A. The works managers told us when we mentioned that subject that the inmates only had one or two outfits of underwear, and therefore they were not always able to change in good time.
Q. You didn't notice that the inmates had no socks on, witness?
A. The inmates very frequently were wearing wooden clogs, and therefore the works managers found out that this was bad for the feet, and we had difficulties; therefore, the plants made efforts to obtain a different type of shoes. These wooden clogs which I was talking about, applied to the first part of the war. Before the war, I think everybody was wearing normal leather shoes.