21 Oct 1947-A_MSD_25_1_Arminger (Hildesheimer) and from this opposition open discussions about the field of tasks resulted, and during the further months and years, there were considerable disputes. The reproach that Office VI was of no importance whatsoever to Office IV, for instance, was of course supposted by me, and there was also the reproach that the work of Office VI was not in the interest of the Secret State Police. There was a reproach of separatism or sabotage. There was also the reproach that the office was politically unreliable and other such reproaches eventually lead to the fact that one day Office VI received no further funds for its activity. It was said it was of no further value to the Secret Police. in the opinion and in the attitude of Heydrich and Mueller and in the lack of understanding of an independent unpolitical information service. All these disputes made successful work in Office VI impossible when eventually at last it came to Heydrich using political reasons, asking which in fact I could not fullfill. He reproached nor or at least he requested me to divorce my wife because she was not a National Socialist and if I was not capable of taking care of my wife, who was not a National Socialist, I would not be capable of taking care of my office, so I asked to be relieved of my office. tht is, until the end of the organization, by the end of August 1941, I was transferred to the Ministry East, which I had not asked for, that is, at least I did not select the Ministry East myself. I was transferred there without my having asked for it.
Q Were you still paid by the Reich Security Main Office? RSHA. At the same time, according to my war service, I was also a part of the Security Police as the Ministry East could not immediately create a position for me.
21 Oct 1947-A_MSD_25_2_Arminger (Hildesheimer)
Q What happened when you were relieved from the RSHA? vacant for me in the Ministry East, and waited for such a position.
Q Did Heydrich at any time offer you a position? Ministry East, Heydrich attempted on two occasions to reinstate me in his sphere of powe , by offering me once a commanding position somewhere, and on another occasion he offered me the position of an SS and Police Leader.
Q Witness, what was your attitude towards these two offers?
A I refused both offers mainly for three reasons. First of all, I was not interested in police questions and I did not think that I was suitable to deal with such Questions. Secondly, under all circumstances. I wanted to Leave this sphere of influence of Heydrich because after all these years of disputes and personal differences I did not feel inclined and I did not have the intention to serve him in any way whatsoever. Only after a transfer to or changing over into another position would it become possible for me to become my own master.
Q How did Heydrich take your refusal?
A Heydrich's basic characteristic was his manial distrust of other people. Thus his offer must be understood. He mustrusted everybody, even his closest collaborator and above all he was afraid of the fact that if one of his close collaborators transferred to another agency that he might become dangerous. When, therefore, he regretted having suggested to have me released for the Ministry East and he attempted to get me back,or at least, he made such proposals to me. My hope, however, was to remain in charge of an administrative office or department which would have been well in accordance with my personal inclination. your relations with Heydrich would ever become more severe?
21 Oct 1947_A_MSD_23_3_Arminger (Hildesheimer) did not do any thing at all to abolish the difficulties which had thus been created. sent on an information tour.
A Yes, that is true. In February of 1942, I received a letter then from the Chief of Office I of the RSHA. That Was Streckenbach, which contained the order for me to report to the Eastern Administration and to go on an information tour to the Eastern Occupied Territories. On the occasion of a discussion I had with Heydrich a few days later, he confirmed this order and he asked me to discuss the actual carrying out of this trip with the Ministry East, which I actually did. your activity in Einsatzgruppe A, as the commander of a SIPO and the SD, Ostland. When and where did the order reach you to take over the leadership of Einsatzkommando A? which began in the beginning of March, 1942, during my stay in Smolensk, in fact, approximately on the 24th of 25th of March, 1942, an order reached me. This order was to the effect that I was to get in touch with the Chief of Einsatzgruppe A; that I was to become Ehief of the Einsatzgruppe North, and the Secuity Police and the SD. Eastern Territories and that any regulations in accordance with this would be made later. This order had been signed by Heydrich. I thus received the order to take over those agencies which until that date had been handled by Stahlegger who had been iklled a few days previously.
Q.- Witness, when you received this order was anybody present?
A.- Yes, when I received this order Sturmbannfuehrer, the then Sturmbannfuehrer Karl Henneke, and my adjutant Gerd Nyhoegen.
Q.- What impression did the receipt of this letter make on you?
A.- It was not only surprising to me, but it was most moving. It was a surprise because after I had been appointed into the Ministry of the East I never counted on an assignment in the sphere of influence, of Heydrich, because I believed that once and for all I had been taken over by another agency, another office, and therefore that a separation from Heydrich had been definite. This hope had been destroyed by the receipt of this letter, but in spite of this I decided to undertake steps for the revocation of such a assignment.
Q.- Did you mention this misgiving to Henneke?
A.- Yes, I mentioned this to Henneke who, as I said, was present at that moment. I told him of my intention, and I told him that I was going to try to go back to Berlin as soon as possible in order to reach Heydrich personally, and thus to have this order revoked, if possible.
Q.- Why were you so interested in having this order revoked?
A.- I have already explained for what reasons I did not want to be entrusted with police work, and for what reasons I did not want to work under the sphere of influence of Heydrich. Before I had received this letter I had a discussion with the above mentioned Henneke, and I had told him that I myself, personally, would not be in a position to carry out execution orders, and it was no sooner said than the teletype arrived which appointed me to a post, where doubtlessly I would come into contact with such orders.
Q.- Witness, how did it come about that you made that remark to Henneke that you would not be able to carry out execution orders? Did Hanneke say anything to you about this?
A.- I had been informed through Henneke of happenings in the Ukraine which overwhelmed me so that I did not know how I could deal with this problem at all.
Q.- Witness, was this order by Heydrich which you had received, binding for you?
A.- The order was signed by Heydrich, as I already said, and I was still paid by the RSHA, my war appointment was to be Chief of the Security Police -- so Heydrich was justified in sending this order to me, and I was under duty to comply with this order.
Q.- Now, what did you do when you received the order?
A.- I had to comply with the order and I went to Riga. There I arrived at the earliest on the 28th of March 1942. I think it must have been a Sunday. On Monday, which was the 29th of March, I took over the office and I immediately telephoned Berlin in order to ask how and where could I get hold of Heydrich. I received information that Heydrich was on the way and he was expected back in Berlin for the week-end. Two or three days later I decided to go to Berlin myself. At the moment of my departure a teletype arrived which announced Heydrich's visit for the very same day. That was either the 31st of March or the 1st of April 1942.
Q.- What urged you to have a discussion with Heydrich?
A.- I was going to try, during that discussion with Heydrich, to have him revoke the order, or at least to give me time to think it over. Furthermore I knew - at least in case he did not withdraw his order, that I would get orders by him, personally. As my questions to the former adjutant of my precedessor Stahlegger concerning orders, especially about the treatment of Jews, were to the effect that such an order had never been received in writing, he told me that this order, before the beginning of the assignment, was given to the chiefs of the Einsatzgruppen and Einsatzkommandos verbally, and that was the Fuehrer Order which had been carried out by the Einsatzgruppe A.
Q.- Was that order in force at that time, witness?
A.- Yes, the order was at that time in force, although at that point, or at the time before, within the Reich Commissariat of the Eastern territories, that is not in the territory of the Einsatzgruppe but in the territory that had been taken over by the civil administration for reason of labor allocation and assignment or for economical reasons, - for those reasons this order had actually not been carried out completely. Withdrawal of the order had not been received, but the measures were, for the mentioned reasons, not no longer carried out.
Q.- Witness, how did your discussion with Heydrich take place, and what was the result?
A.- If Heydrich's suddent visit was not a surprising fact more it was his behavior, He was most charming, and he behaved in a very kind manner, such as I had not seen in him for many years. He tried in a very cordial manner to discuss all kinds of matters which had nothing to do with the actual question. Obviously, his intention was to get me into a receptive mood in order to say then finally: "Now I have already offered you on various occasions to become a commander. Through the sudden death of Stahlecker we now have the possibility to comply with this wish of mine, and I hope that this new task will be a pleasing one to you. I objected a few times, and gave the reason for my objection, and repeated to him what I had already told him on former occasions, and it was that I was not suitable person for police matters, that I had not counted on a re-employment in his own sphere, that I had innerly separated myself from him and wanted to prepare myself for my future task. I saw it my duty to draw his attention to the fact that he himself, before the start of the Russian campaign, had refused a proposal to employ me in the Eastern assignment, giving the reasons that I was ill and as far as my nerves were concerned, not in a state to take part in such a campaign. Apart from that, when I left the Office VI he had also said that my state of health was such that for this reason alone it would be adequate for me to leave the charge of Office VI.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Schwarz, this might be a good point at which to suspend; and youmight indicate to the witness that after a little spurt of speed he once more dropped back to a somnolent state. You might ask him..... I am sorry .... I merely wanted to say that the witness responded immediately to our suggestion that he increased the speed of delivery, but then he became tired very quickly and once more has dropped back to his rather somnolent delivery. You might tell him this evening to have a good rest and perhaps tomorrow morning he can speak with a little more speed, especially in view of the fact that he already has his material prepared, We don't intend to request that a witness adapt himself to any particular kind of delivery, but I do think he could speak a little more rapidly.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, may I say that during these last days the defendant has had much work to do, and has been in a rundown state, because during that time the whole day was spent in the preparation of the defense of the defendant. I think that a quiet night will give the defendant the possibility to comply with the wishes of the Tribunal tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.
DR. KOESSL (for the defendant Ott): I would like to ask the Tribunal to escuse the Defendant Ott tomorrow, as he also has to prepare his defense. Furthermore, I would ask to represent now my colleague Dr. Gawlik to excuse the Defendant Seibert on Wednesday and Thursday, also in order to prepare his case.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendants Ott and Seibert will be excused tomorrow; and Seibert also on Thursday - so that they may confer with their respective counsel in preparing their case for the defense. thirty.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 22 October 1947).
0930 - 1630, Justice Michael A. Musmanno, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
DR. SCHWARZ: Dr. Schwartz for the Defendant Jost. the defendant I would like to make a short statement. Evidently Jost was yesterday not in the position any longer to go on with his own case. I have already taken the liberty to put a request in, on the 9th of October, for a medical examination of the Defendant Jost. This request, however, referred to the state of healt of the Defendant Jost at an earlier date. The defendant now tells me that he is afraid he is no longer able to concentrate on his defense after a very short time to the extent which would be necessary to comply with the wishes of the Tribunal and to defend himself in his own case. be feasible to have the Defendant Jost examined, or at least to determine his state of health in order to establish whether he is in a position at the moment to go on with his defense. If the Tribunal believes that it cannot grant this request, I would like to ask the Tribunal to consider the state of health of the Defendant Jost and to bear it in mindin the further development of the defense.
THE PRESIDENT: There is no reason why a physical examination of the defendant may not be had.
DR. SCHWARZ: I do not know, your Honor. As I said, I have made a request in writing on the 9th of October. This request has not yet been ruled on and has not yet been granted.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will immediately instruct the jail physician to conduct a physical examination of the defendant at the first opportunity. In the meantime we will proceed with the examination of the defendant, and there will be no disposition on the part of the Tribunal to cause him to testify in any manner which might in any way interfere with the normal processes of thinking and speaking. increase the tempo of his speaking that for a short while he did, and he seemed to speak very normally and responded quickly and acted as any normal person would. So there is nothing visible to this Tribunal which would suggest that the defendant is not able to conduct his defense here in open court. We will continue in the normal fashion and then perhaps at noontime we can have this physical examination conducted.
DR. SCHWARZ:Yes, your Honor. I appreciate the regard that the Tribunal showed yesterday for this defendant. I agree to the proposal of your Honor, and I shall proceed now with the direct examination of the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, proceed. BY DR. SCHWARZ: conference with Heydrich. The last thing you said was that you had refused Heydrich's offer and that you gave him definite reasons which led you to this refusal. Will you proceed from this point? no longer in the position to fulfill the task which he had meant me to fulfill. These objections were rejected by Heydrich. He told me he had a very good reason why he had come to Riga. He wanted to prove to me that all disputes and difficulties we had had in former times had been forgotten, and he wanted to express thus that I had his confidence.
As to my stating my case, the fact, for instance, that my state of health was not such that I would be able to fulfillthese tasks, he told me, "You are not going to be put in charge of any Einsatz tasks, but you will have the task of a commander, and as I am going to give these tasks to you, you will fulfill them." Further objections on my part he did not accept. After this dispute had taken place in this form for sometime, he came to the conclusion that if indeed I did not want to accept this task permanently, he would have to order me to take over this task temporarily until a definite successor would have been found. At the moment no such commander was at his disposal. I would have to do this for a fewweeks at least. Thus through my resistance I had accomplished that at least I would no definitely be appointed as a commander, or at least not permanently. these tasks, and what your assignment would be, what it would consist of?
A Heydrich said the following: "Your main or your only task will be to act as my representative, and that you should express to the Higher SS and Police Leader and especially to the Reich Commissar, that the Security Police and the SD are willing to collaborate closely with the civil administration. We want to be an integral part of the civil administration, engaged in building up its work, and the foundations are now being laid for a long time to come.
"Stahlegger" who was my predecessor, "has not been able to fulfillthis task. He only dealt with the Einsatzgruppe and the Army. These assignments are only of a temporary nature, and therefore they are no longer very important to me. The Kommandos of the Einsatzgruppen are practically only working for the Army, and they have no tasks in connection with the Security Police." Einsatzgruppe could not be taken over by another leader, because, as he said, there was no commander at his disposal at the moment.
Naturally I had to report to the Chief of the Army Group and thus keep up contacts with the Army. The assignment itself would be carried out by the kommandos ashe had already said, and it would be carried out independently with agreement and approval of the Army. It would suffice if the senior leader in Krasnogvardeisk would deal with the few assignments which were still the tasks of the Einsatzgruppe. I told him that I did not want to have further conflicts with the Chief of Office IV, Mueller, and these conflicts would result if I took over this task. He answered, "I told you what your assignment is. The executive power is not your business but that is the task of the kommandos who are working as independent authorities with the General Command. They know their tasks and you do not have to bother with them. Furthermore, I forbid you any participation in partisan warfare or in any operation. I do not want to see a second case Stahlecker. I shall go to White Rutheniamyself in the near future. There I have to give my own directives, especially concerning Commissar Kruge."
In fact, a few days before I had stated in front of witnesses, that I did not feel myself in a position to carry out such measures. I knew that this would be the only opportunity to express my attitude. If I became unfaithful, as it were, to myself, I would never have the opportunity again to express my opinion, and therefore I asked him whether the order could not be revoked for the Reich Commissariat Eastland. I added literally, I quote: "Obergruppenfuehere, you have known me now for the last eight years, and I would like to tell you that I cannot imagine myself carrying out such measures." time, was, "Perhaps we can consider a resettlement of the question." Whether he actually meant this or whether it was just an answer for the sake of an answer in order to make it easier for me to take over this task, I cannot decide today. In any case I believed this statement of his, and this statement was sufficient for me at the moment, even though of course, it meant in no way the revoking of the Fuehrer order; but I hoped that at least for the territories governed by the civil administration a different policy would be possible and prevailing conditions might be changed. Furthermore I was of the opinion, I was convinced in fact, that from many sides and authorities objections would be received against then Fuehrer order, for instance, on the part of the High Generals, or from other authoritative agencies within the Government, and also on the side of the church, of foreign powers, and by the bishops. I could not imagine that nothing would happen as a result. It was soon to be established, however, that my hope was unfounded.
Q Were not the decrees of the RSHA mentioned in this discussion? discuss a decree of the RSHA in Office IV which had just been received. It concerned the treatment of Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians who were within the Reich authority for allocation of labor and who received special treatment on the part of the police. This decree was signed by Heydrich and was only valid for the Reich territory.
It was only reported to the office, to the agency in the Eastern Territories. That is, it was not to be applied there, but one could have applies it analogously. The decree had been worked out very carefully and very conscientiously, and I attacked this decree, and I drew Heydrich's attention to the fact that this form of treatment was impossible. Heydrich's attention to the fact that this form of treatment was impossible. Heydrich at first pretended at least not to be able to remember this decree at the moment, although it was only a few days old, and he promised to change the decree according to my suggestions. The decree itself provided for severe punishment of the above-named people, but I do not remember at the moment the actual distirbution of the punishments and to which of the offenses these punishments were to be applied. The effect was that after ten days a second decree was issued which completely revoked the first decree, and thus any special treatment or inferiority status of the above-mentioned nationality groups or personal groups was revoked.
Q Witness, what assignemtn did Heydrich give you in this discussion? office buildings, rooms, different authorities, different relations to superiors, different tasks and assignments and responsibilities. These are the two offices of the Chief of Einsatzgruppe A with the Army Group North, and the other post was the Commander of the Security Police and the SD in the Reich Commissariat Eastland. Both were in accordance with what had been discussed with Heydrich. were your assignemtns and tasks as its chief?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, may I show this on the map?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, indeed.
A The northern front went in the following direction. North it went to St. Petersburg to approximately this point, South it went to point which I can't show exactly on the amp, because it doesn't list the necessary places. This was the front of the Army Group North. At this front, or, shall we say, behind this front, in the rear Army territory, there was the Einsatzgruppe A. That was the field of activities of Einsatzgruppe A. This was the territory which was bordered by the front in the East and in the West it was bordered by the civil administration territory. It went here and went to the west, where there was Estonia, which had teen under civil administration for the last few months, out it was still operational territory and to that extent this was under the responsible competence of the rear Army territory. In this Army territory there was an overlapping of Army and civil authority. In this territory was the Group Staff of Einsatzgruppe A. Here in Krasnogwardeisk was the Kommando of Krasnogwardeisk. The Group Staff and Commando of Krasnogwardeisk were practically one single unit. Another Kommando was here, immediately at the front, at Loknia; that was within the territory of the Operational theatre of the 16th Army. Up here in the North was the 18th Army and this was the 16th Army. Detachment Ia was responsible, which was stationed in Reval and was under the command of Sandberger. The assignments of the Detachment Krasnogwardeisk were at this time essentially counter-espionage and counter-sabotage, combatting Bolshevist activities of any kind, whatsoever, or counter-acting of enemy propaganda, and so on, and the third task -- and this was the main one - was by order of the Army to carry out intelligence missions about Leningrad and small partisan *ands in the vicinity. Fifth, to support field detachments in their security and administrative tasks.
its original field of activities. For the last few months it had been at the front and had held a sector of about 30 to 40 kilometers and, of course, was mainly busy with this task and was therefore subordinated to the competent Army group since it had a combat assignment. Assignments as they had been originally planned in the Einsatz order were not being carried out by this particular detachment. The influence of the Einsatzgruppe itself or my own interest in this detachment was non-existent. chiefs concerning their authority and responsibilities, I may refer to the statements of the Defendant Ohlendorf concerning this point, which are valid just as much for this territory as for other territories. as a commander of the South Group within the Reich Commissariat Eastern Territories? which was administered which had been governed by a civil administration for months. That was the Reich Commissariat Eastland. The Reich Commissariat Eastland included the formerly independent Baltic States, Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia, which had been independent until 1940 and then had been taken over by Russia in the well-known way and which in 1941 came under German domination.
These three countries are three entirely different ones. They are different people, different cultures, different languages and still these three countries have a certain unity and they come under the term Staat Balticum. Added to this territory as a sort of an appendix there was the territory of White Ruthenia, which is not marked on this map, but which is about this territory. This is mainly former Russian territory with Russian, or rather White Ruthenian population. They are Slavs, who, however, in their looks and also in their language are somewhat different from the Russian population, therefore, the term, White Russian, or White Ruthenia.
This territory had no contact with the Baltic and had also no historical or organic connections of any kind with it. supreme official of the Reich. Subordinated to him personally was the Higher SS and Police Leaders who dealt with all police and SS matters. Under him, in turn, there was the Commander of the Regular Police and the Commander of the Security Police, who, in this case, was myself. These countries which were now called a General District were headed by a General Commissar, as the men who actually wielded power in these territories. He ruled his country according to the points of view and the requirements necessary for his particular territory. Lithuania was governed in a different manner than Estonia and Estonia, accordingly, was governed in a different manner from Latvia and White Ruthenia was governed in a different manner and regarded in a different light. their respective countries received directives from the Reich Minister for the Eastern Occupied countries. They received different orders, but he left a free hand to the individual commander and he did so because after all, they were different territories, different countries, which could not be governed in a uniform manner. question? Witness, what were your assignments as the Commander of the Security Police and the SD in the territory which you have just mentioned? by Heydrich, only a temporary leadership of the offices concerned. I had only to deal with administrative tasks for the time being.
Q Where was your office located?
AAccording to Heydrich's orders my office was in Riga.
wardeisk, the Group Staff? by you at the sane time? tasks to be modified and to order that the matters of the Einsatzgruppe should be taken charge of by the senior leader in Krasnogwardeisk, because the detachments collaborated very closely with the armies so that the activity of this representative was merely limited to maintaining communications with the armies. ties?
A The distances were large. The road conditions were bad. Communications of messages were difficult, as there was no teletyping possible, it was very much dependent on weather conditions.
Q Witness, what were the channels of command in the Einsatzgruppen? SS, the Chief of Police, from the Chief of the Security Police, from the Chief of the Army Group, and from the commander of the rear army area. commandos?
A The authorities which I have just mentioned could. Also the Einsatzgruppe itself or the Army or other military units to whom these Einsatzgruppen had been attached. of the SD and the Einsatzkommandos? tion, I had to obey orders of the Chief of the German Police and the Security Police, and of the Chief of the Security Police and SD, of the Higher SS and Police Leader, that is, the local commander and the Reich Commissar for the Eastland.
were headed by the Commissar General, all SS and police matters were dealt with by a Police Commissar. Under this SS and Police Leader were, according to the organization in the Reich Commissariat, the Commander of the Regular Police and the Commander of the Security Police and the SD. These commanders of the SD and the Security Police could receive orders from the Reichsfuehrer himself, and the Chief of the German Police and the Chief of the Security Police and SD, individual agencies of the Reich Security main Office, the Commander in Chief of the Security Police, the General Commissar, the Higher Police and SS Leader or the Police and SS Leader. Einsatzgruppen within the Army territory and the Office of the Security Police and SD in the territory of the civil administration? kommandos to rule the Army rear area are known. I am not speaking about the special orders. The same applies to the territory under the civil administration. Here also our tasks consisted of detecting Communist activities in any shape whatsoever. In that respect one could speak of an identical task for both. But the difference is that the assignments in the operational theater were determined by the activity of the Army, While in the area under civil administration other requirements existed. Here the first thing is that the German government has to build up and install its administrative apparatus, because the countries, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania had their own independent governments and in the distribution of authority, there was a great difference between the individual countries. Furthermore in these territories the economy had to be re-built. According to this, the activity of the Security Police and the SD also had to do other tasks and with the reinstitution of the civil governments, the commanders were installed who thus become regular administrative officers within the civil administration; now they are no longer operational units which have been formed and established for a certain purpose and sphere.
These commanders took over the tasks and assignments of the Criminal Police and tasks and assignment of Administrative Police and other regular police assignments. established which was set up in stages. In Lithuania, for instance, it was set up a little before it was established in Latvia, in Latvia before it was installed in Estonia. One could say that by autumn 1941 it was established.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Schwarz, the defendant is charged with certain crimes in the indictment, specifically as the Chief of Einsatzgruppe A, and is being called upon to answer for the executions which took place in the territory which he was governing. Now you have been giving us quite a detailed account of the administration of this area, of this land Is this all very appropriate and relevant to the defense? Do you intend to show that by what he is now describing, the defendant is not responsible to the charges in the indictment, or is this just general background.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, the statements of the defendant are basically necessary for the further defense of the defendant, or, at least, they are necessary as such, but they are also necessary and important for a few individual cases with which he had been charged by the prosecution. Furthermore, this particular point of the defense of the defendant will be concluded very shortly and after that he can be very much briefer.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Proceed.
A (Continued) With the beginning of the civil administration, with the establishment of the civil administration, the activities of the Einsatzgruppen were concluded in these territories, and Einsatzkommandos at the time when I took office were not active in the territory which was governed by civil administration, with the exception of the one which I had just mentioned, which was active in Estonia. There, there was a civil administration, as well as the military authority, which cooperate with each other.