Naturally I had to report to the Chief of the Army Group and thus keep up contacts with the Army. The assignment itself would be carried out by the kommandos ashe had already said, and it would be carried out independently with agreement and approval of the Army. It would suffice if the senior leader in Krasnogvardeisk would deal with the few assignments which were still the tasks of the Einsatzgruppe. I told him that I did not want to have further conflicts with the Chief of Office IV, Mueller, and these conflicts would result if I took over this task. He answered, "I told you what your assignment is. The executive power is not your business but that is the task of the kommandos who are working as independent authorities with the General Command. They know their tasks and you do not have to bother with them. Furthermore, I forbid you any participation in partisan warfare or in any operation. I do not want to see a second case Stahlecker. I shall go to White Rutheniamyself in the near future. There I have to give my own directives, especially concerning Commissar Kruge."
In fact, a few days before I had stated in front of witnesses, that I did not feel myself in a position to carry out such measures. I knew that this would be the only opportunity to express my attitude. If I became unfaithful, as it were, to myself, I would never have the opportunity again to express my opinion, and therefore I asked him whether the order could not be revoked for the Reich Commissariat Eastland. I added literally, I quote: "Obergruppenfuehere, you have known me now for the last eight years, and I would like to tell you that I cannot imagine myself carrying out such measures." time, was, "Perhaps we can consider a resettlement of the question." Whether he actually meant this or whether it was just an answer for the sake of an answer in order to make it easier for me to take over this task, I cannot decide today. In any case I believed this statement of his, and this statement was sufficient for me at the moment, even though of course, it meant in no way the revoking of the Fuehrer order; but I hoped that at least for the territories governed by the civil administration a different policy would be possible and prevailing conditions might be changed. Furthermore I was of the opinion, I was convinced in fact, that from many sides and authorities objections would be received against then Fuehrer order, for instance, on the part of the High Generals, or from other authoritative agencies within the Government, and also on the side of the church, of foreign powers, and by the bishops. I could not imagine that nothing would happen as a result. It was soon to be established, however, that my hope was unfounded.
Q Were not the decrees of the RSHA mentioned in this discussion? discuss a decree of the RSHA in Office IV which had just been received. It concerned the treatment of Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians who were within the Reich authority for allocation of labor and who received special treatment on the part of the police. This decree was signed by Heydrich and was only valid for the Reich territory.
It was only reported to the office, to the agency in the Eastern Territories. That is, it was not to be applied there, but one could have applies it analogously. The decree had been worked out very carefully and very conscientiously, and I attacked this decree, and I drew Heydrich's attention to the fact that this form of treatment was impossible. Heydrich's attention to the fact that this form of treatment was impossible. Heydrich at first pretended at least not to be able to remember this decree at the moment, although it was only a few days old, and he promised to change the decree according to my suggestions. The decree itself provided for severe punishment of the above-named people, but I do not remember at the moment the actual distirbution of the punishments and to which of the offenses these punishments were to be applied. The effect was that after ten days a second decree was issued which completely revoked the first decree, and thus any special treatment or inferiority status of the above-mentioned nationality groups or personal groups was revoked.
Q Witness, what assignemtn did Heydrich give you in this discussion? office buildings, rooms, different authorities, different relations to superiors, different tasks and assignments and responsibilities. These are the two offices of the Chief of Einsatzgruppe A with the Army Group North, and the other post was the Commander of the Security Police and the SD in the Reich Commissariat Eastland. Both were in accordance with what had been discussed with Heydrich. were your assignemtns and tasks as its chief?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, may I show this on the map?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, indeed.
A The northern front went in the following direction. North it went to St. Petersburg to approximately this point, South it went to point which I can't show exactly on the amp, because it doesn't list the necessary places. This was the front of the Army Group North. At this front, or, shall we say, behind this front, in the rear Army territory, there was the Einsatzgruppe A. That was the field of activities of Einsatzgruppe A. This was the territory which was bordered by the front in the East and in the West it was bordered by the civil administration territory. It went here and went to the west, where there was Estonia, which had teen under civil administration for the last few months, out it was still operational territory and to that extent this was under the responsible competence of the rear Army territory. In this Army territory there was an overlapping of Army and civil authority. In this territory was the Group Staff of Einsatzgruppe A. Here in Krasnogwardeisk was the Kommando of Krasnogwardeisk. The Group Staff and Commando of Krasnogwardeisk were practically one single unit. Another Kommando was here, immediately at the front, at Loknia; that was within the territory of the Operational theatre of the 16th Army. Up here in the North was the 18th Army and this was the 16th Army. Detachment Ia was responsible, which was stationed in Reval and was under the command of Sandberger. The assignments of the Detachment Krasnogwardeisk were at this time essentially counter-espionage and counter-sabotage, combatting Bolshevist activities of any kind, whatsoever, or counter-acting of enemy propaganda, and so on, and the third task -- and this was the main one - was by order of the Army to carry out intelligence missions about Leningrad and small partisan *ands in the vicinity. Fifth, to support field detachments in their security and administrative tasks.
its original field of activities. For the last few months it had been at the front and had held a sector of about 30 to 40 kilometers and, of course, was mainly busy with this task and was therefore subordinated to the competent Army group since it had a combat assignment. Assignments as they had been originally planned in the Einsatz order were not being carried out by this particular detachment. The influence of the Einsatzgruppe itself or my own interest in this detachment was non-existent. chiefs concerning their authority and responsibilities, I may refer to the statements of the Defendant Ohlendorf concerning this point, which are valid just as much for this territory as for other territories. as a commander of the South Group within the Reich Commissariat Eastern Territories? which was administered which had been governed by a civil administration for months. That was the Reich Commissariat Eastland. The Reich Commissariat Eastland included the formerly independent Baltic States, Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia, which had been independent until 1940 and then had been taken over by Russia in the well-known way and which in 1941 came under German domination.
These three countries are three entirely different ones. They are different people, different cultures, different languages and still these three countries have a certain unity and they come under the term Staat Balticum. Added to this territory as a sort of an appendix there was the territory of White Ruthenia, which is not marked on this map, but which is about this territory. This is mainly former Russian territory with Russian, or rather White Ruthenian population. They are Slavs, who, however, in their looks and also in their language are somewhat different from the Russian population, therefore, the term, White Russian, or White Ruthenia.
This territory had no contact with the Baltic and had also no historical or organic connections of any kind with it. supreme official of the Reich. Subordinated to him personally was the Higher SS and Police Leaders who dealt with all police and SS matters. Under him, in turn, there was the Commander of the Regular Police and the Commander of the Security Police, who, in this case, was myself. These countries which were now called a General District were headed by a General Commissar, as the men who actually wielded power in these territories. He ruled his country according to the points of view and the requirements necessary for his particular territory. Lithuania was governed in a different manner than Estonia and Estonia, accordingly, was governed in a different manner from Latvia and White Ruthenia was governed in a different manner and regarded in a different light. their respective countries received directives from the Reich Minister for the Eastern Occupied countries. They received different orders, but he left a free hand to the individual commander and he did so because after all, they were different territories, different countries, which could not be governed in a uniform manner. question? Witness, what were your assignments as the Commander of the Security Police and the SD in the territory which you have just mentioned? by Heydrich, only a temporary leadership of the offices concerned. I had only to deal with administrative tasks for the time being.
Q Where was your office located?
AAccording to Heydrich's orders my office was in Riga.
wardeisk, the Group Staff? by you at the sane time? tasks to be modified and to order that the matters of the Einsatzgruppe should be taken charge of by the senior leader in Krasnogwardeisk, because the detachments collaborated very closely with the armies so that the activity of this representative was merely limited to maintaining communications with the armies. ties?
A The distances were large. The road conditions were bad. Communications of messages were difficult, as there was no teletyping possible, it was very much dependent on weather conditions.
Q Witness, what were the channels of command in the Einsatzgruppen? SS, the Chief of Police, from the Chief of the Security Police, from the Chief of the Army Group, and from the commander of the rear army area. commandos?
A The authorities which I have just mentioned could. Also the Einsatzgruppe itself or the Army or other military units to whom these Einsatzgruppen had been attached. of the SD and the Einsatzkommandos? tion, I had to obey orders of the Chief of the German Police and the Security Police, and of the Chief of the Security Police and SD, of the Higher SS and Police Leader, that is, the local commander and the Reich Commissar for the Eastland.
were headed by the Commissar General, all SS and police matters were dealt with by a Police Commissar. Under this SS and Police Leader were, according to the organization in the Reich Commissariat, the Commander of the Regular Police and the Commander of the Security Police and the SD. These commanders of the SD and the Security Police could receive orders from the Reichsfuehrer himself, and the Chief of the German Police and the Chief of the Security Police and SD, individual agencies of the Reich Security main Office, the Commander in Chief of the Security Police, the General Commissar, the Higher Police and SS Leader or the Police and SS Leader. Einsatzgruppen within the Army territory and the Office of the Security Police and SD in the territory of the civil administration? kommandos to rule the Army rear area are known. I am not speaking about the special orders. The same applies to the territory under the civil administration. Here also our tasks consisted of detecting Communist activities in any shape whatsoever. In that respect one could speak of an identical task for both. But the difference is that the assignments in the operational theater were determined by the activity of the Army, While in the area under civil administration other requirements existed. Here the first thing is that the German government has to build up and install its administrative apparatus, because the countries, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania had their own independent governments and in the distribution of authority, there was a great difference between the individual countries. Furthermore in these territories the economy had to be re-built. According to this, the activity of the Security Police and the SD also had to do other tasks and with the reinstitution of the civil governments, the commanders were installed who thus become regular administrative officers within the civil administration; now they are no longer operational units which have been formed and established for a certain purpose and sphere.
These commanders took over the tasks and assignments of the Criminal Police and tasks and assignment of Administrative Police and other regular police assignments. established which was set up in stages. In Lithuania, for instance, it was set up a little before it was established in Latvia, in Latvia before it was installed in Estonia. One could say that by autumn 1941 it was established.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Schwarz, the defendant is charged with certain crimes in the indictment, specifically as the Chief of Einsatzgruppe A, and is being called upon to answer for the executions which took place in the territory which he was governing. Now you have been giving us quite a detailed account of the administration of this area, of this land Is this all very appropriate and relevant to the defense? Do you intend to show that by what he is now describing, the defendant is not responsible to the charges in the indictment, or is this just general background.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, the statements of the defendant are basically necessary for the further defense of the defendant, or, at least, they are necessary as such, but they are also necessary and important for a few individual cases with which he had been charged by the prosecution. Furthermore, this particular point of the defense of the defendant will be concluded very shortly and after that he can be very much briefer.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Proceed.
A (Continued) With the beginning of the civil administration, with the establishment of the civil administration, the activities of the Einsatzgruppen were concluded in these territories, and Einsatzkommandos at the time when I took office were not active in the territory which was governed by civil administration, with the exception of the one which I had just mentioned, which was active in Estonia. There, there was a civil administration, as well as the military authority, which cooperate with each other.
Referring to this, I wish to correct the No. 3 of my affidavit of the 20th of June, 1947. In my interrogations I repeatedly pointed out that units of the Einsatzgruppe A were not active in the territory just mentioned, but the interrogator maintained the contrary and eventually I became insecure and lacking the power of concentration I answered with this statement which you will find under No. 3.
MR. GLANCY: If it please the Tribunal, I believe that the defendant and the defense counsel have had ample opportunity while Mr. Wartenberg, the interrogator, was here to attack and to correct any phase of the affidavit which he wished. It seems it is a little late and a poor time to do so.
THE PRESIDENT: It is true that Defense Counsel had an opportunity to cross-examine Mr. Wartenberg, but the defendant also has the right to state his side of the case, so that objection is overruled. Proceed.
A (Continued) The same is valid for No. 5, which seems to be a typographical mistake. There it says, "It is known that during my time of office in Einsatzgruppe A," and it says "in" and it should say "with", because units of the Einsatzgruppe A, or kommandos of the Einsatzgruppe, as it becomes quite evident from the statements, could not have taken part in these activities. the Army? already been mentioned: on various occasions, it happened that the Kommandos, of course, were bound by the orders of the Army and had to obey orders of the Army, exactly as any other Army unit and they had to obey these orders and to comply with the wishes of the Army and nobody had any influence on the Army and its orders, orders which had existed for months. with Heydrich. What did you do after this discussion?
a few days in order to settle some personal affairs in Berlin. After I returned, I reported through my local commander to my local chief, the Higher SS and Police Leader, Obergruppenfuehrer Jekeln. I told him about my discussion with Heydrich, especially about the fact that my activity would only be temporary and would not last. In this lengthy discussion, the subject of treatment of Jews was touched upon and I told him of the utternaces that Heydrich had made which had given me reason for optimism and from this optimistic mood which I was in, I stated the subject to him in a rather optimistic light.
As I said before, on a former occasion I could speak to him openly and I believed that I could talk to him openly and frankly because this utterance on the part of Heydrich had given me the reason. In all frankness I expressed my opinion to him, opinion as to this question, and I made it quite clear to him that I regarded this Fuehrer Order as untenable, and that eventually one would arrive at the conclusion to change it or even to revoke it in some of the territories. This remark of mine was objected to by him, and he reproached Heydrich betterly and said, "Heydrich wants to sabotage the Fuehrer Order. The Security Police suffers from an excess of humanitarian feeling." And he told me that he would disregard entirely Heydrich's intentions. For him only the Fuehrer Order was valid, which would be carried out strictly by him, and in this connection the word "responsibility" was mentioned. He said that for him there was only one responsibility to carry out, regardless, any order which he had received. I objectwould perhaps have the possibility of finding out and perhaps would know about this. He would probably have had a reason for telling me that it might be revoked. All objections on my part met with no success, and Jekeln said that the Fuehrer Order would be valid for him until it was actually revoked. I told him in what form I had expressed myself as to this question in front of Heydrich. After I had achieved nothing in this matter, I discussed the situation of the position of the people who were forced to carry out this order personally, and I told him that these people would suffer severe psychologic al damage through this.
The question of this responsibility would have to be examined one day. His answer was, I quote: "I have thought and considered this very carefully, and if I catch somebody who objects to this or breaks down, then he will also be shot." At this moment it became clear to me in what position those were who were under Jekeln's subordination because, according to this, there could be no doubt as to the consequences for refusing to obey the order.
But even if such an order was carried out the SS man could still suffer a tragedy if he could not bear such responsibility. It was, therefore, of no avail, what he did. In this discussion the commander of the regular police was present, General Jadicke, and Administrative Counsel Alexander Landgraf. I had been made most insecure after this discussion, but I relied on the remarks that Heydrich had made to me. Jekeln himself gave no orders to me, and did not entrust me with any measures as far as the subject had been closed. But he did not tell me whether, and if, and where, he considered his orders of carrying through these measures. This discussion had taken place a few days after Easter.
Q What was your state of health at this time, witness? paralyzed. I had serious rheumatism in my joints, which was the result of this psychological state. Furthermore, my thyroid glands and my nerves were in a very serious state. This state of health had deteriorated within the course of the years throughout all these disputes with Heydrich and other leaders, and that was also the reason why I told Heydrich that I did not consider myself fit to carry out such tasks entrusted to me. The physician who treated me asked me to have myself relieved for long stretches from this work. Of course, I could not carry out all my offices due to my state of health.
Q In what way did you carry on your services? Kauen in order to visit the local commander.
Q What was the purpose and the result of this visit? study conditions in Lithuania. I wanted to meet the commander, and I wanted to establish what kind of personality he was. On this occasion I found out that the Jews who were still alive in Lithuania generally were still employed as far as they were fit to work. As tion was not its aim because, after all, a part of the Jews was to remain alive - that was for me the tragedy of it all - because the families were to be parted, and I do not know who of the victims would have to be pitied more.
I could not overcome this thought and I could not pass on the order. After a few days I recognized that something had to be done, and I decided to visit Heydrich again and to make a last, though probably unsuccessful attempt to change his mind. Whether there would be a possibility to see him at all, I did not know, but I was going to try it in any case and I would at least succeed in being recalled, because he told me, after all, that I was to remain only for a few weeks. I asked to see Heydrich, but I did not get an appointment. I reported in the meantime to the 16th Army. I visited the commander of Loknia, I reported to the commander of Estonia, and I tried to find out about the state of the Jewish question because I thought at that time there were still Jews in existence. Here again I believed him, that it was my express wish that no measures of this kind were to be carried out in the future because I was still hopeful that another outcome might be possible.
The discussion that I asked for with Heydrich took place on the Friday before Whitsuntide in 1942. In my whole life I have never had a more difficult interview. This was not only the most difficult one. When I visited him I had already been in the possession of the order for three weeks, without having passed it on, and now I, of course, had to face reproaches and charges. The reception Heydrich gave me was a freezing coldness. He did not even reply when I greeted him. There was no trace of the joviality with which he had received me two weekd earlier in Riga. The same cold relations had been reestablished. He did not pay attention to what I had to say. He looked into his files. He did not seem interested in anything I had to say. I told him about my report to the Chief of the Army Group about the relation between the Army and his agencies, but this did not seem to interest him. After I told him a few personnel matters I told him about the visit of Rosenberg in the Eastern territory. That was the first which aroused his interests. And then I told him of my visit in Kauen. And this opportunity I used to tell him that I had come to him because I was very, very worried, and I told him explicitly and in great details the psychological constitution of individual men whom I had gotten to know, in order to show him what effects these orders had on his men. For tactical reasons this appeared to be the only way to start discussing this particular subject because the care for his men was the only point about which he was sensitive. He was immediately willing to discuss this subject, and he immediately said that everything should be done for these men, that they must be able to go on furlough, and accommodations were to be arranged for them in the Black Forest. I told him that that was taken for granted. And I told him that ther could be no improvement in the psychological state of the men as long as these men were under this psychological pressure of these events, and that the events were not over, and that they would take place again. And there would be no cure as long as this would go on, if there would be a cure at all. I told him that this had gone on long enough, that the first thing was to take care of the persons who were in spiritual difficulties, and here, indeed, there was Spiritual distress, and that is what I wanted to tell him.
With this explanation I wanted to put a weapon into his hands, and wanted to influence him, and wanted to tell him that thus he could do something himself, that he could change his order, and to recommend that Heydrich, being in a difficult position himself, and being bound by the Fuehrer Order-- but if I wanted to achieve anything at all this seemed to me the only possible way in order to influence him and to cause him to taky any steps whatsoever. I believe that I can say that he was impressed by my statements. He did not say anything at all to start with, and he seemed to consider things very seriously. When I saw him in this mood I asked him about my new orders, whether I was to remain in Riga, and I reminded him that he had promised me that I should only have to stay a few weeks, whether he was not willing now to appoint a successor here and now.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. "Successor." You said "Predecessor."
INTERPRETER: Yes, successor.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Schwarz, this might be a convenient time to have our recess. So the Tribunal will be in recess now for 15 minutes.
DR. SCHWARZ: I beg your pardon, your Honor, the answer to this question will only take one or two minutes. Would it be all right with the Tribunal if he would finish it.
THE PRESIDENT : By all means, continue.
A (By the witness) As soon as I mentioned this question of my transfer, his mood was changed. He got up from his chair and he said in a very severe voice, "Yes, I will talk to the Reichsfuehrer on your behalf. In 8 or 10 days you will leave your post and will be transferred to another office." In other words, - "You will be interested to know that also your friend Best, in Paris" -- he had been the former Chief of Office I in the Reich Security Main Office and had been relieved two years ago, and he was at that time the military administrative chief and he had the rank of a Major General. "Best also has asked to be trans ferred to another office and he will receive that, but he will not get what he wants.
I shall see to it that he should serve as a simple private at the Eastern front. Thus we will see if he will ever return at all." for Best would also be my own fate, because this could not be interpreted otherwise. He gave some brief instructions to his adjutant about the successor, or at least reminded him to appoint a successor, and now this question had been concluded.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, this might be a good opportunity to recess.
THE PRESIDENT: I might ask a question. You said, witness, that when you asked for a successor that Heydrich's manner changed. You had told us that in the early part of the discussion he was very frigid. Do you understand by your explanation that he suddenly became more friendly or more frigid?
A (by the witness) He had received me in a very cool manner -that is, in a forbidding manner, but he became more interested when I told him about the Reich Minister Rosenberg who had visited the Eastern territory.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but I am only trying to understand what you meant when you said his manner changed -- did he become more cordial, or less cordial?
A (by the witness) Yes, but I told him about the spiritual distress of these people, and then he was in a rather soft mood again, and this caused him to get up from his chair and to become cold again, and forbidding; this melancholy mood had vanished within one second when he noticed that I wanted to leave all this.
THE PRESIDENT: Then he went through the Tropical zones...the Arctic Zone, the Temperate Zone, and then back again to the Arctic Zone?
A (By the witness) Yes, yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
)A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. RIEDIGER: Dr. Riediger for the defendant Haensch. Your Honor, may I ask you that the defendant Haensch be excused this afternoon because we want to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Haensch will be excused this afternoon in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. FITCH: Dr. Fitch for the defendant Bieberstein. Your Honor, for the same reason I ask that my defendant be excused for this afternoon and tomorrow afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: Tomorrow afternoon and not tomorrow morning?
DR. FITCH: Yes, only in the afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the defendant Bieberstein will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon and tomorrow afternoon in accordance with request of his counsel.
DR. MAYER: Dr. Mayer for the defendant Steimle. Your Honor, I ask that the defendant Steimle be excused tomorrow morning and tomorrow afternoon as well in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Steimle will be excused from attendance in court all day tomorrow in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. MAYER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
DR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, Your Honor. BY DR. SCHWARZ:
Q. Witness, you talked about your discussion with Heydrich at the end, just before recess. After that were you transferred?
A. No. About five days after this discussion, Tuesday or Wednesday after Whitsumtide the attempt against the life of Heydrich occurred as a result of which he died a few days later. For that reason they now transferred me, and then from there I went to the troops, as I expected.
Q. Did you try anything else to got your transfer through?
A. After Heydrich had been buried I reported to Himmler who temporarily took over the Security Police and the SD. He had not appointed a successor for Heydrich yet, but I was not received, and he informed me that I should return to Riga, I was to hear from him sometime.
Q. what was the result of the Heydrich order concerning you?
A. Heydrich was dead but the order still existed, of course, After his death I could not expect to be threatened to carry out this order, because of his death, but I did not know whether Office IV, Mueller or anybody else, might not threaten me to carry out this order.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the date of your last conversation with Heydrich?
THE WITNESS: The Friday before Whitsuntide.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you give us a calender date, because Whitsuntide changes, varies according to the year.
THE WITNESS: It should have been about the 22nd of May, if I remember correctly, and the attack on him was shortly after Whitsuntide.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. (By Dr. Schwarz) Witness, you described to us how when you visited the kommandos you explained to the kommando leaders and asked them not to carry out the Fuehrer order for the time being. Now, what was your attitude to the officials in the other offices?
A. My attitude to the other officials concerning the order, I did not have to adopt any particular attitude, I only had to explain something to them in another respect. During a roll call of the office I pointed out that the Jew also has legal protection, his life, his property and his person, and this was wrong for that reason.
Q. Witness, did you or your office get similar orders like the Heydrich order?
A. Soon after I returned to Riga a leader of a kommando in Krasnogvardeisk, that is one of the Einsatzgruppe in the Army territory, said that an Army agency -- it might have been the corps in Krasnogvardeisk, but it might have been another agency, I can't remember exactly -- this agency had ordered him to liquidate the inmates of an insane asylum because the building was required as an Army billet.