I asked this leader excitedly whether he had already done anything to that effect. He said no. I told him, "Go and report in my name, that I forbid the carrying out of this measure, and in future I will not allow such orders to be given. Should the person giving the order still retain this opinion I shall complain to the Chief of the Army Group immediately."
Q. What order did the kommando leader bring back?
A. After a few days it was reported to me, ver soon afterwards, that owing to my instructions and directives this measure had not been carried out. I heard no more about it after that.
Q. Your opinion concerning the liquidation of Jews, did you also express it to other people?
A. The end of July, beginning of August 1942, I was called to the Reich Commissar in Riga. He asked me what the Jewish situation was. He asked me how many Jews remained in the East. He wanted to discuss something with me. He said, "I would like to report to the Furhrer now that the Eastland has no Jews left." I was very surprised about this statement, and fearing a similar order I stated, "I cannot take the responsibility to carry out such measures, and I cannot expect it of myself or of the men under my command. Those who want to give the orders have to carry them out themselves. Jeckeln also knows my view." After this, my reply, there was a long silence until I said after sometime that such measures were not carried out. "Yes, I can imagine," was that reply, "that it is very difficult for those men." I had assumed then that the Army does not agree to carry out such measures because many of the Jews work in the Army plants. After a few meaningless words the discussion was thus closed. It is to prove the actual responsibility and in the interests of historical truth to state this here and to show the pressure under which each of these people was, and the more he was affected by the circumstances and the pressure of it, the lower his rank was because if a Reich Commissar could not do anything about such orders, surely some low-ranking Unter or Obersturmfuehrer of about twenty-five years of age cannot do anything either.
But this discussion also proves that within this order not only the agencies of the Security Police and the SD were concerned, for this shows, as I have Said, the question of responsibility and shows it very clearly. For we personally the confirmation of these facts could be of disadvantage because I am convinced that my statement and the discussion will not be confirmed. Personally I don't care. At the time I did not care what reply I gave, and now I don't care. If a Reich Commissar had The courage at the time to state such an opinion, then I should state this opinion now as well. At the time I stated my opinion, and I repeat that my fate in immaterial to me in this connection, but for the sake of historical truth I have said this.
Q. Witness, was there any third party present during these discussions, or did you inform any third parties about the contents of this discussion?
A. Yes, after I returned to my office I informed my adjutant, and after returning to my apartment I informed the Commander Jadicke who happened to be in my apartment at the time. He was visiting me for some reason. I informed Jadicke about the discussion. He was surprised and said, "But you were quite right. I congratulate you. That takes a lot of courage."
Q. Who became Reydrich's successor?
A. No successor was appointed, but Himmler dealt with the official business.
Q. Did that improve or make your position worse?
A. This forced me to insist on my transfer to Himmler. This was difficult because one could hardly speak to Himmler. Since Heydrich's death I continously tried. I followed him to Reval and Tilsit without being able to reach him. I had him celled up continously. All attempts were in vain.
But after this discussion with the Reich Commissar I now increased my efforts because of the pressure of the order under which I still stood and the possibility that this statement of mine towards the Reich Commissar be reported to Himmler or somebody. This was the reason to go to Himmler in a hurry. At the end of August I traveled to him without having been asked by him to go to him, and to visit him in his field command position. Although I had no appointment I was received by him.
Q. Will you give the Tribunal a short description of this discussion with Himmler?
A. Himmler received me without words.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us have the date.
A. (Continuing) 'Are you trying to tell us --' I said at the end of August, 23rd, 24th, 25th approximately, perhaps the 26th, that is the last third of August.
THE PRESIDENT: Between the 23rd and 26th of August?
THE WITNESS: Let's say between the 22nd and the 26th approximately.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
A (continuing) Himmler received me with the words, "Are you trying to tell me that you had a row with Mueller, therefore you went back to this thing that had happened the year before?" I had not expected this and told him that that was not the reason why I had come to him, But he wanted to know what had happened between Mueller and myself. As I have tried to explain yesterday, I gave him a detailed. explanation of the development and the difference in the tasks that were in the Secret State Police and the Security Service, and during this discussion I tried to make it clear to him that owing to this difference in assignments, differences with Mueller had arisen, and that now it could not be certain that the SD could work successfully any more. I was repeatedly interrupted by him in this so that I was hardly able to give a continuous explanation. The remarks he made proved that he himself did not know anything about the differences in the tasks. He minimized the whole matter, of course, and showed his lack of interest in all these affairs. He concluded this discussion by exclaiming, "Are you trying to suggest to me that these tasks and these agencies have to be separated again?" I told him, "I consider it to be my duty, and I think I am authorized to make suggestions to that effect. I do not belong to the Reich Main Security Office any more. I only wanted to answer your question why these differences had arisen." He then replied, "Well, you are in Riga now, and everything is over there. You needn't bother about these questions any more." I now told him this was the very reason why I had come to him. I told him that Heydrich had only given me a temporary task in Riga, and owing to his death my transfer had not come about as it had been intended. I told him that it had been intended to put me into the Eastern Ministry, and now we discussed whether the tasks in the East were in my line. I told him at first it was only a matter of theory, but in the East one had to be practical. I said a definite sentence, and I talked about the executive problems which were difficult for the men, but I was interrupted and could not go on, and after that moment I hardly got a chance of talking again.
I was asked, "Are you a philosopher? what is the meaning of this? What do you mean, problems? All that is concerned are our orders." I think I have to explain this to you. "I have given the Handshuhbefehl, the glove order." I beg your pardon, I have to explain this. Himmler had given an order that when a superior was greeted or saluted the glove had to be taken from the hand. In the Army it was the other way around, the glove had to remain on the hand. Himmler said, "I have given this glove order. There are many who believe they do not have to bother about such an order because they don't like it. Anyone whom I meet who does not follow this order and obeys it in the strictest manner, I shall punish him very severely and harshly, and even if the contents of the order are ever so ridiculous, the contents of the order don't matter, all that matters is that it is an order, and those who don't obey the glove order prove that they do not want to carry out orders of great importance. Orders cannot be discussed or debated. Orders have to be obeyed, and that principle you don't seem to have realized yet. What is your age?" he asked. I replied, "I was born in 1904". "Oh, you are one of those people who never had any military training. No one here can be an officer or a general who cannot obey, because those who don't obey orders cannot give orders either. I must think about how I can train you to do this." having the possibility of replying to it. After sometime, while he was making these statements, he interrupted himself and looked at me rather surprised, and looked at me questioningly. He said, "Tell me, it has been reported to me that you have been ill. You are said to have had a nervous breakdown, is that right?" I confirmed this and said that for sometime I was hardly able to work. This was the reason why he changed the subject and his mood and explained and asked me whether I had a good physician. He mentioned a Dr. Fahrenkampf of Munich and became very friendly.
I was to be given in the Eastern Ministry. On this subject there was a general discussion during which he gave me some advice, what I should do if I should be put into the Eastern Administration sometime, and I could understand from this that he agreed to my transfer to this department. He did not make any difinite decision on the spot, but he sent me back, and as far as I remember, on the 2nd of September, 1942, that is about a week after this discussion, I received a teletype message which contained my transfer. generally? and I had no opportunity to have any personal relationship with him. This was the first opportunity to talk to him alone and at some length. The discussion took perhaps thirty to forty minutes. I had the possibility then to see him as a human being and to meet him personally, and the decisions I made on that occasion were not very favorable, although I realized that now my fate had been sealed, as far as that is concerned, because the criticism he used did not leave me any doubt. On the other hand, I was deeply moved because of the general spirit. That is that after that nothing could be changed in that order because one was not able even to discuss the order. The order was not explained. It was simply as order and one could not go beyond that. That was what overwhelmed me. In spite of all attempts I had made, nothing could be changed in principle.
I had kept back this Heydrich order. I talked to Heydrich twice and expressed my objection to the Reich Commissar. I tried to discuss the subject with Himmler, even if I was not able to discuss it properly. This did not change the order.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
A (Continuing) Owing to my rank and my position I had the possibility to discuss it again perhaps. Of all these defendants I held the highest rank at the time.
I was the Senior Chief in the RSHA. For that reason I had some possibility to do this.
Himmler may have had consideration for me, owing to my bad health, but I wanted at least to talk about things other people could not discuss any more, but since I could not have this order cancelled and revoked, none of the defendants could have done so, not all of them together could have achieved this. could not be changed and that the individual cannot stop fate, even if he tries ever so hard. I could not know whether other people had also tried, whether they were successful.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean by that remark that it is impossible to change any circumstances, that everything is predestined beforehand?
THE WITNESS: No; that in this situation it was not possible for the individual to revoke this order, other people would have had to do this.
THE PRESIDENT: You use a very general phrase that one cannot change fate. If you intend to adhere to that doctrine, then these trials are of no importance and nothing can be achieved by way of intelligent inquiry into anything, that everything is predestined and moves along in accordance with a patterned design supernaturally.
THE WITNESS: I merely wanted to say that the individual who came under this order did not have the power or the opportunity to stop events; that stronger forces would have had to come to stop Hitler. That is what I tried to express.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean by those stronger forces, the Allies?
THE WITNESS : If necessary, that too.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q (By Dr. Schwarz) Witness, have you finished answering this question?
Q Were executions carried out according to your oder?
Q How about the extermination of political opponents?
THE PRESIDENT: Which order do you refer to, Dr. Schwarz? You say, there are no executions following his order, which order?
DR. SCHWARZ: The Fuehrer Order as well as the order by Heydrich.
THE PRESIDENT: You asked him if any executions followed his order. I assume you mean the defendant's order, Jost's order. Now which order was that? Let's be specific. Let's have the date.
DR. SCHWARZ: Certainly, Your Honor. what I mean, is all orders which he issued based on the fuehrer Order and the order by Heydrich, the last one discussed, maybe orders he was given from the higher authorities, and as a result of which he gave orders. I asked him whether he gave orders on his own authority.
THE PRESIDENT: I want to know the date of Jost's order, not the Hitler Order nor the Heydrich order.
DR. SCHWARZ: My question, whether he himself had given the orders, the defendant answered with "no."
THE PRESIDENT: Repeat your question, please.
DR. SCHWARZ: Were any executions carried out on your order?
THE WITNESS: No, I did not give any order.
THE PRESIDENT: You were following his orders, the defendant's orders, and the defendant replies he gave no orders.
DR. SCHWARZ: Well, I don't know about any order which he might have given.
THE PRESIDENTL Then he did not give an order?
DR. SCHWARZ: No, he did not give one. That is what his reply tells us.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
(By Dr. Schwarz) What about time question of the extermination of political opponents? the prosecution charges me, never took place. The reports prove that the Communists who endangered public security were interned. All internees and their position were examined. They were released, if there was no reason to keep them arrested any longer. Sometimes, however, numbers were released. In Riga on 1 May 1942 at my suggestion Communists were released who had not been charged with anything serious. Similar measures occured in Estonia. There too I made the suggestion. The commander himself had already previously followed his own decision and seen to it that a great number were released and some more people were going to be released.
Q Were you absent from your office a number of times?
A I was in Berlin four times: approximately, between the 2nd and 8th of April, between the 20th and 28th of May, between the 15th of June and the 13th of July. Apart from that, I was absent repeatedly when visiting other Army agencies, Army groups, visiting the rear army and inspecting detachments. deputy and your men in case you should be absent?
any decisions of basic importance without first asking me. I could always be reached by telephone so that I should be informed about important events. your transfer. After you were transferred from Riga, what job were you given? and I was promised to become liaison officer with the Army group Caucasus Mountains, but I never took up this assignment, because negotiations between the Ministry East and the High Command of the Army took so long that by that time the Caucasus Mountains had been lost.
Q Did you get an assignment in the Ministry East? concerning the execution of Jews or to undertake anything in this respect? Rosenberg. After that I had a long personal discussion, not within his office, because he wanted to meet me personally. During a very long and general discussion affairs in the East were also discussed. He talked about his relationship with Himmler, which was very bad at the time. He also talked about the SS and here also he had all kinds of objection. In this connection I used the opportunity to mention the execution in the East and to explain to him, how very hard and difficult this order was, to individual SS men in the East that it would not be fair to make him responsible for these events. Responsibility is in the hands of him or those who gave the orders, and now I tried to explain to him that there must be some way to discuss this with the Fuehrer.
Downcast he replied: "It is a Fuehrer Order. I can't do anything about it." "I have tried it," or something to the effect. In any case, he was very downcast. I then told him that carrying out such measures would have an effect for decades and would thus cause difficulties throughout the world; that the difficulties already in existence would be increased, and it would not really help at all. I briefly told him about my own attitude during my stay in the East, regarding this subject. That was definitely the last time I spoke on the Jewish question and discussed it with anyone who had some political importance. Of course, I did not state my personal opinion, but this discussion was the last one of all, because after that day, practically until the end of the war, I had no opportunity to discuss such things with anyone of any importance.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, are we to unterstand from what you have just stated, that Rosenberg was sympathetic to the Jews and their plight?
THE WITNESS: Sympathized is far too much. He certainly did not do that, but I think I could understand him to the effect, that these measures were not quite to his liking.
THE PRESIDENT: Did he criticize the Fuehrer Order with regard to the execution of the Jews?
THE WITNESS: By "criticizing", I mean decided objecting. No, he did not do that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, in effect, he had not opposed the order?
THE WITNESS: I understood it to that effect that he did not consider the shootings right and that he had already mentioned this, but he couldn't do anything about it.
THE PRESIDENT: He did not than criticize the order?
THE WITNESS: By criticize I consider a stronger attitude.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he spoke very unfavorably about the order.
THE WITNESS: Not about the order perhaps, but about the measures; that perhaps recognized it us a Fuerer Order, but he did not like the Actual measures.
THE PRESIDENT: But the order demanded the shooting, the execution, the killing of Jews. Did he speak unfavorably of that order?
THE WITNESS: He said "But it has been ordered; though I don't quite like it, either" or so something to that effect. That is, somehow he did not quite like it personally, but it just had been ordered.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it was more a shrug of the shoulders than it was a criticism?
THE WITNESS: That is what I was trying to say when I stated by "criticism" I mean something rather to the effect of a stronger objection, a determinate, obvious attitude.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. (By Dr. Schwarz) Witness, you explained to the Tribunal that your assignment in the Caucasus did not actually take place. Did you get Another assignment, and where?
A. The assignment in the Caucasus, as I already mentioned, never come into effect. They tried to give me another assignment, not within the SS, but Himmler also objected to this. As a surprise, instead of an assignment, in the Spring of 1943, I was asked to report as Unterscharfuehrer to the (SS Body Guards) the Leibstandarte at Charkow in Russia, and so without any training, or any medical examination, I was sent to the front at once. Himmler had give this order and I had not been given any reasons for my being drafted into the Army.
Q. What did you understand by this measure?
A. I presumed that this was the result of my discussion with Himmler, or that it happened owing to some other complaints thus giving the reason why this measure had been taken so all of a sudden.
Q. Were you actually drafted then?
A. No, this never actually took place, because at that time the Ministry East had just decided to send me to an Army Group after all, so that I managed to postpone this drafting for some time. In the summer of 1943, I became liaison officer with an Army Group definitely and started to work with Army Group A in Nikolajew at the end of October, 1943. From the day I left my office in Riga until that time I thus had not been doing anything for 13 months.
Q. How long were you active in the Army Group?
A. In the Army Group itself, I acted as a liaison officer between the Ministry East and this Army Group. But there was practically no work for me to do on neither side. The only assignment I was given was that the Field Marshall von Kleist sent me to Berlin in order to speak to Rosenberg about the military situation and to cause him to talk to the Fuehrer and to ask him in the west. Rosenberg said he was not competent to deal with such a question. At the end of February, 1944, the Deputy Higher SS and Police Leader in Nikolajew, Obergruppenfuehrer Hildebrandt, offered me to propose me as commander of the Security Police and the SD, although he was not competent to do so, because it was his opinion that my assignment in the Army Group was unsuitable and would not last, because there were no work at all for me there. Hildebrandt really wanted to help me in getting me into a reasonable position again. This suggestion, which was very favorable for me I rejected, because under no COURT II-A CASE IX circumstances did I want to go to the police and I did not went to be once more under Himmler's authority.
And above all I by no means wanted to go back to an office, where I would risk to meet orders which I simply could not carry out. I gave reasons for my attitude, and I continued to reject this job. About this rejection and most likely about the reasons, a few days later, Hildebrandt made a report to Himmler. I was suddenly ordered to go back to Berlin and there at the end of March or the beginning of April, 1944, I suddenly received a Fuehrer Order that I was to join the Waffen-SS as Unterscharfuehrer.
Q. Witness, did you actually serve in the Waffen-SS.
A. Yes, I served as Underscharfuehrer until about the end of July 1944, but I was not able to carry out this duty. Owing to bad health I was sent to a mursing house. After that I remained at home until the end of the war.
Q. What significance did this assignment as Unterscharfuehrer have for you?
A. This drafting as Unterscharfuehrer, of course, took away my prestige, which I had according to my last position. It actually was a degradation, although it had not been formally stated as such, because I remained a Brigadefuehrer, a Major General. Through a circular to various high authorities of the SS and the Ministry of the Interior, the drafting which was to be valid until the end of the war was made known and had the denouncing effect which was wanted. On the 24th of April, 1945, I was taken prisoner by the Americans.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the equivalent Army rank to Unterscharfuehrer?
THE WITNESS: Corporal.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, I now come to the last set of questions which is the membership in criminal organizations.
THE PRESIDENT: This might be a good point at which to suspend. The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 22 October 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HOFFMAN (For the Defendant Nosske): Your Honor, I Would like to ask your permission to go back to a remark that was made yesterday on the occasion of the examination of the defendant Schulz. The execution of Poles was mentioned, and I was of the conviction that the translation mentioned hundreds of thousands of Poles. I do know the correctness and the consciousness of the Court, and I am quite sure that the Tribunal will clarify the matter. It was the document which had been submitted that was being discussed. I now took the liberty of referring to its literal text, as it had been submitted to the IMT. I have the document here. Literally of course, Himmler only talks about thousands of Poles, whereas the figure hundred thousand refers to people who were deported.
THE PRESIDENT: The decision of the International Military Tribunal speaks of the execution of Poles in a language which could allow the interpretation of hundreds of thousands. Hitler here is merely speaking of the thousand that had to be shot, He says thousands, then thousands, a hundred thousand. He does not include here those who were killed in the gas chambers. Do I understand, Dr. Hoffman, that it is your impression that the phrase "hundreds of thousands" is exaggerated, that there were not that many killed? Is that what I take your observation to be?
DR. HOFFMANN: Your Honor, I assumed that in consulting a document you will come back to this particular speech at Metz, which I have mentioned, and in this speech "hundred thousands" are being talked about who were deported and about thousands which were actually shot. If you have your knowledge, Your Honor, from other documents,where another picture comes into existence, in that case I do not want to express my attitude to you now, and that, of course, is not my task either; but I only thought that the contents of the speech in Metz, the impression created by this speech might prove to different, and this is why I come to speak of it once more Himmler's speech at Metz does not show that it was hundreds of thousands, but Himmler in.
Metz speaks only of thousands who were shot.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr, Hoffman, the equivocation results from your assumption that I was quoting from Himmler's speech. I was not. I was referring generally to the fact that from all the documents one can very easily conclude that hundreds of thousands of Poles were killed in Poland by the German forces and the decision of the IMT, I am rather confident, will bear out the correctness of that interpretation.
DR. HOFFMANN: I meant only from the point of view that your knowledge might be based on that particular speech in Metz, otherwise -
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I thank you for your interest.
DR. ULMER (for the Defendant Six): Your Honor, yesterday the Defendant Six was excused for today. Defendant Six is not in the room at the moment. There is the possibility that the Jost's defense will be finished in the afternoon, and I do not want to prolong by not having, the Defendant Six really at the disposal of the Court. Would you, therefore, take care that perhaps during the interval the defendant Six will come up.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will take care of that.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor may I now proceed with the direct examination of the defendant? BY DR. SCHWARZ:
Q.- Witness, you are charged by the Prosecution to have been a member of organizations declared criminal. I have a few questions to put to you in this connection Was the SD, and therewith Office VI, a Counter Intelligence Service of the Gestapo?
A.- Office VI in its organization, and especially in its field of tasks, as I have already explained yesterday when I talked about Office VI, was, as I said, independent; and therefore it was not a counter intelligence organization of the Secret State police.
Q.- Was your activity in Office VI any connection with the executive power?
A.- My task was mainly the supply of information from foreign countries.
Q.- How did it come about that you joined the SS?
A.- In Summer 1934 I entered the SD. Therefore, I became a member of the SD and it was thus I became an SS leader for the subsidiary organization of the SD.
Q.- Were you a member of the General SS?
A.- No, only a member of the SD.
Q.- Were you an honorary SS leader?
A.- No, I was a major general, I got the salary of an official.
Q.- Did you carry out any activity in the SS, apart from that?
A.- Not in the SD, not in the armed SS, the Waffen-SS.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, I have now concluded my direct examination of the defendant, and I would now like to begin to submit, and to discuss the documents which concern the Defendant Jost as charged by the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: You will refer to the documents introduced by the Prosecution?
DR, SCHWARZ: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. NY DR. SCHWARZ:
Q.- Witness, I shall now show you Document Book I, page 23; it is Exhibit 5, Document 2890. It is the affidavit of Ohlendorf, of the 24th of April 1947.