Referring to this, I wish to correct the No. 3 of my affidavit of the 20th of June, 1947. In my interrogations I repeatedly pointed out that units of the Einsatzgruppe A were not active in the territory just mentioned, but the interrogator maintained the contrary and eventually I became insecure and lacking the power of concentration I answered with this statement which you will find under No. 3.
MR. GLANCY: If it please the Tribunal, I believe that the defendant and the defense counsel have had ample opportunity while Mr. Wartenberg, the interrogator, was here to attack and to correct any phase of the affidavit which he wished. It seems it is a little late and a poor time to do so.
THE PRESIDENT: It is true that Defense Counsel had an opportunity to cross-examine Mr. Wartenberg, but the defendant also has the right to state his side of the case, so that objection is overruled. Proceed.
A (Continued) The same is valid for No. 5, which seems to be a typographical mistake. There it says, "It is known that during my time of office in Einsatzgruppe A," and it says "in" and it should say "with", because units of the Einsatzgruppe A, or kommandos of the Einsatzgruppe, as it becomes quite evident from the statements, could not have taken part in these activities. the Army? already been mentioned: on various occasions, it happened that the Kommandos, of course, were bound by the orders of the Army and had to obey orders of the Army, exactly as any other Army unit and they had to obey these orders and to comply with the wishes of the Army and nobody had any influence on the Army and its orders, orders which had existed for months. with Heydrich. What did you do after this discussion?
a few days in order to settle some personal affairs in Berlin. After I returned, I reported through my local commander to my local chief, the Higher SS and Police Leader, Obergruppenfuehrer Jekeln. I told him about my discussion with Heydrich, especially about the fact that my activity would only be temporary and would not last. In this lengthy discussion, the subject of treatment of Jews was touched upon and I told him of the utternaces that Heydrich had made which had given me reason for optimism and from this optimistic mood which I was in, I stated the subject to him in a rather optimistic light.
As I said before, on a former occasion I could speak to him openly and I believed that I could talk to him openly and frankly because this utterance on the part of Heydrich had given me the reason. In all frankness I expressed my opinion to him, opinion as to this question, and I made it quite clear to him that I regarded this Fuehrer Order as untenable, and that eventually one would arrive at the conclusion to change it or even to revoke it in some of the territories. This remark of mine was objected to by him, and he reproached Heydrich betterly and said, "Heydrich wants to sabotage the Fuehrer Order. The Security Police suffers from an excess of humanitarian feeling." And he told me that he would disregard entirely Heydrich's intentions. For him only the Fuehrer Order was valid, which would be carried out strictly by him, and in this connection the word "responsibility" was mentioned. He said that for him there was only one responsibility to carry out, regardless, any order which he had received. I objectwould perhaps have the possibility of finding out and perhaps would know about this. He would probably have had a reason for telling me that it might be revoked. All objections on my part met with no success, and Jekeln said that the Fuehrer Order would be valid for him until it was actually revoked. I told him in what form I had expressed myself as to this question in front of Heydrich. After I had achieved nothing in this matter, I discussed the situation of the position of the people who were forced to carry out this order personally, and I told him that these people would suffer severe psychologic al damage through this.
The question of this responsibility would have to be examined one day. His answer was, I quote: "I have thought and considered this very carefully, and if I catch somebody who objects to this or breaks down, then he will also be shot." At this moment it became clear to me in what position those were who were under Jekeln's subordination because, according to this, there could be no doubt as to the consequences for refusing to obey the order.
But even if such an order was carried out the SS man could still suffer a tragedy if he could not bear such responsibility. It was, therefore, of no avail, what he did. In this discussion the commander of the regular police was present, General Jadicke, and Administrative Counsel Alexander Landgraf. I had been made most insecure after this discussion, but I relied on the remarks that Heydrich had made to me. Jekeln himself gave no orders to me, and did not entrust me with any measures as far as the subject had been closed. But he did not tell me whether, and if, and where, he considered his orders of carrying through these measures. This discussion had taken place a few days after Easter.
Q What was your state of health at this time, witness? paralyzed. I had serious rheumatism in my joints, which was the result of this psychological state. Furthermore, my thyroid glands and my nerves were in a very serious state. This state of health had deteriorated within the course of the years throughout all these disputes with Heydrich and other leaders, and that was also the reason why I told Heydrich that I did not consider myself fit to carry out such tasks entrusted to me. The physician who treated me asked me to have myself relieved for long stretches from this work. Of course, I could not carry out all my offices due to my state of health.
Q In what way did you carry on your services? Kauen in order to visit the local commander.
Q What was the purpose and the result of this visit? study conditions in Lithuania. I wanted to meet the commander, and I wanted to establish what kind of personality he was. On this occasion I found out that the Jews who were still alive in Lithuania generally were still employed as far as they were fit to work. As tion was not its aim because, after all, a part of the Jews was to remain alive - that was for me the tragedy of it all - because the families were to be parted, and I do not know who of the victims would have to be pitied more.
I could not overcome this thought and I could not pass on the order. After a few days I recognized that something had to be done, and I decided to visit Heydrich again and to make a last, though probably unsuccessful attempt to change his mind. Whether there would be a possibility to see him at all, I did not know, but I was going to try it in any case and I would at least succeed in being recalled, because he told me, after all, that I was to remain only for a few weeks. I asked to see Heydrich, but I did not get an appointment. I reported in the meantime to the 16th Army. I visited the commander of Loknia, I reported to the commander of Estonia, and I tried to find out about the state of the Jewish question because I thought at that time there were still Jews in existence. Here again I believed him, that it was my express wish that no measures of this kind were to be carried out in the future because I was still hopeful that another outcome might be possible.
The discussion that I asked for with Heydrich took place on the Friday before Whitsuntide in 1942. In my whole life I have never had a more difficult interview. This was not only the most difficult one. When I visited him I had already been in the possession of the order for three weeks, without having passed it on, and now I, of course, had to face reproaches and charges. The reception Heydrich gave me was a freezing coldness. He did not even reply when I greeted him. There was no trace of the joviality with which he had received me two weekd earlier in Riga. The same cold relations had been reestablished. He did not pay attention to what I had to say. He looked into his files. He did not seem interested in anything I had to say. I told him about my report to the Chief of the Army Group about the relation between the Army and his agencies, but this did not seem to interest him. After I told him a few personnel matters I told him about the visit of Rosenberg in the Eastern territory. That was the first which aroused his interests. And then I told him of my visit in Kauen. And this opportunity I used to tell him that I had come to him because I was very, very worried, and I told him explicitly and in great details the psychological constitution of individual men whom I had gotten to know, in order to show him what effects these orders had on his men. For tactical reasons this appeared to be the only way to start discussing this particular subject because the care for his men was the only point about which he was sensitive. He was immediately willing to discuss this subject, and he immediately said that everything should be done for these men, that they must be able to go on furlough, and accommodations were to be arranged for them in the Black Forest. I told him that that was taken for granted. And I told him that ther could be no improvement in the psychological state of the men as long as these men were under this psychological pressure of these events, and that the events were not over, and that they would take place again. And there would be no cure as long as this would go on, if there would be a cure at all. I told him that this had gone on long enough, that the first thing was to take care of the persons who were in spiritual difficulties, and here, indeed, there was Spiritual distress, and that is what I wanted to tell him.
With this explanation I wanted to put a weapon into his hands, and wanted to influence him, and wanted to tell him that thus he could do something himself, that he could change his order, and to recommend that Heydrich, being in a difficult position himself, and being bound by the Fuehrer Order-- but if I wanted to achieve anything at all this seemed to me the only possible way in order to influence him and to cause him to taky any steps whatsoever. I believe that I can say that he was impressed by my statements. He did not say anything at all to start with, and he seemed to consider things very seriously. When I saw him in this mood I asked him about my new orders, whether I was to remain in Riga, and I reminded him that he had promised me that I should only have to stay a few weeks, whether he was not willing now to appoint a successor here and now.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. "Successor." You said "Predecessor."
INTERPRETER: Yes, successor.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Schwarz, this might be a convenient time to have our recess. So the Tribunal will be in recess now for 15 minutes.
DR. SCHWARZ: I beg your pardon, your Honor, the answer to this question will only take one or two minutes. Would it be all right with the Tribunal if he would finish it.
THE PRESIDENT : By all means, continue.
A (By the witness) As soon as I mentioned this question of my transfer, his mood was changed. He got up from his chair and he said in a very severe voice, "Yes, I will talk to the Reichsfuehrer on your behalf. In 8 or 10 days you will leave your post and will be transferred to another office." In other words, - "You will be interested to know that also your friend Best, in Paris" -- he had been the former Chief of Office I in the Reich Security Main Office and had been relieved two years ago, and he was at that time the military administrative chief and he had the rank of a Major General. "Best also has asked to be trans ferred to another office and he will receive that, but he will not get what he wants.
I shall see to it that he should serve as a simple private at the Eastern front. Thus we will see if he will ever return at all." for Best would also be my own fate, because this could not be interpreted otherwise. He gave some brief instructions to his adjutant about the successor, or at least reminded him to appoint a successor, and now this question had been concluded.
DR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, this might be a good opportunity to recess.
THE PRESIDENT: I might ask a question. You said, witness, that when you asked for a successor that Heydrich's manner changed. You had told us that in the early part of the discussion he was very frigid. Do you understand by your explanation that he suddenly became more friendly or more frigid?
A (by the witness) He had received me in a very cool manner -that is, in a forbidding manner, but he became more interested when I told him about the Reich Minister Rosenberg who had visited the Eastern territory.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but I am only trying to understand what you meant when you said his manner changed -- did he become more cordial, or less cordial?
A (by the witness) Yes, but I told him about the spiritual distress of these people, and then he was in a rather soft mood again, and this caused him to get up from his chair and to become cold again, and forbidding; this melancholy mood had vanished within one second when he noticed that I wanted to leave all this.
THE PRESIDENT: Then he went through the Tropical zones...the Arctic Zone, the Temperate Zone, and then back again to the Arctic Zone?
A (By the witness) Yes, yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
)A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. RIEDIGER: Dr. Riediger for the defendant Haensch. Your Honor, may I ask you that the defendant Haensch be excused this afternoon because we want to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Haensch will be excused this afternoon in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. FITCH: Dr. Fitch for the defendant Bieberstein. Your Honor, for the same reason I ask that my defendant be excused for this afternoon and tomorrow afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: Tomorrow afternoon and not tomorrow morning?
DR. FITCH: Yes, only in the afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the defendant Bieberstein will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon and tomorrow afternoon in accordance with request of his counsel.
DR. MAYER: Dr. Mayer for the defendant Steimle. Your Honor, I ask that the defendant Steimle be excused tomorrow morning and tomorrow afternoon as well in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Steimle will be excused from attendance in court all day tomorrow in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. MAYER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
DR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, Your Honor. BY DR. SCHWARZ:
Q. Witness, you talked about your discussion with Heydrich at the end, just before recess. After that were you transferred?
A. No. About five days after this discussion, Tuesday or Wednesday after Whitsumtide the attempt against the life of Heydrich occurred as a result of which he died a few days later. For that reason they now transferred me, and then from there I went to the troops, as I expected.
Q. Did you try anything else to got your transfer through?
A. After Heydrich had been buried I reported to Himmler who temporarily took over the Security Police and the SD. He had not appointed a successor for Heydrich yet, but I was not received, and he informed me that I should return to Riga, I was to hear from him sometime.
Q. what was the result of the Heydrich order concerning you?
A. Heydrich was dead but the order still existed, of course, After his death I could not expect to be threatened to carry out this order, because of his death, but I did not know whether Office IV, Mueller or anybody else, might not threaten me to carry out this order.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the date of your last conversation with Heydrich?
THE WITNESS: The Friday before Whitsuntide.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you give us a calender date, because Whitsuntide changes, varies according to the year.
THE WITNESS: It should have been about the 22nd of May, if I remember correctly, and the attack on him was shortly after Whitsuntide.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. (By Dr. Schwarz) Witness, you described to us how when you visited the kommandos you explained to the kommando leaders and asked them not to carry out the Fuehrer order for the time being. Now, what was your attitude to the officials in the other offices?
A. My attitude to the other officials concerning the order, I did not have to adopt any particular attitude, I only had to explain something to them in another respect. During a roll call of the office I pointed out that the Jew also has legal protection, his life, his property and his person, and this was wrong for that reason.
Q. Witness, did you or your office get similar orders like the Heydrich order?
A. Soon after I returned to Riga a leader of a kommando in Krasnogvardeisk, that is one of the Einsatzgruppe in the Army territory, said that an Army agency -- it might have been the corps in Krasnogvardeisk, but it might have been another agency, I can't remember exactly -- this agency had ordered him to liquidate the inmates of an insane asylum because the building was required as an Army billet.
I asked this leader excitedly whether he had already done anything to that effect. He said no. I told him, "Go and report in my name, that I forbid the carrying out of this measure, and in future I will not allow such orders to be given. Should the person giving the order still retain this opinion I shall complain to the Chief of the Army Group immediately."
Q. What order did the kommando leader bring back?
A. After a few days it was reported to me, ver soon afterwards, that owing to my instructions and directives this measure had not been carried out. I heard no more about it after that.
Q. Your opinion concerning the liquidation of Jews, did you also express it to other people?
A. The end of July, beginning of August 1942, I was called to the Reich Commissar in Riga. He asked me what the Jewish situation was. He asked me how many Jews remained in the East. He wanted to discuss something with me. He said, "I would like to report to the Furhrer now that the Eastland has no Jews left." I was very surprised about this statement, and fearing a similar order I stated, "I cannot take the responsibility to carry out such measures, and I cannot expect it of myself or of the men under my command. Those who want to give the orders have to carry them out themselves. Jeckeln also knows my view." After this, my reply, there was a long silence until I said after sometime that such measures were not carried out. "Yes, I can imagine," was that reply, "that it is very difficult for those men." I had assumed then that the Army does not agree to carry out such measures because many of the Jews work in the Army plants. After a few meaningless words the discussion was thus closed. It is to prove the actual responsibility and in the interests of historical truth to state this here and to show the pressure under which each of these people was, and the more he was affected by the circumstances and the pressure of it, the lower his rank was because if a Reich Commissar could not do anything about such orders, surely some low-ranking Unter or Obersturmfuehrer of about twenty-five years of age cannot do anything either.
But this discussion also proves that within this order not only the agencies of the Security Police and the SD were concerned, for this shows, as I have Said, the question of responsibility and shows it very clearly. For we personally the confirmation of these facts could be of disadvantage because I am convinced that my statement and the discussion will not be confirmed. Personally I don't care. At the time I did not care what reply I gave, and now I don't care. If a Reich Commissar had The courage at the time to state such an opinion, then I should state this opinion now as well. At the time I stated my opinion, and I repeat that my fate in immaterial to me in this connection, but for the sake of historical truth I have said this.
Q. Witness, was there any third party present during these discussions, or did you inform any third parties about the contents of this discussion?
A. Yes, after I returned to my office I informed my adjutant, and after returning to my apartment I informed the Commander Jadicke who happened to be in my apartment at the time. He was visiting me for some reason. I informed Jadicke about the discussion. He was surprised and said, "But you were quite right. I congratulate you. That takes a lot of courage."
Q. Who became Reydrich's successor?
A. No successor was appointed, but Himmler dealt with the official business.
Q. Did that improve or make your position worse?
A. This forced me to insist on my transfer to Himmler. This was difficult because one could hardly speak to Himmler. Since Heydrich's death I continously tried. I followed him to Reval and Tilsit without being able to reach him. I had him celled up continously. All attempts were in vain.
But after this discussion with the Reich Commissar I now increased my efforts because of the pressure of the order under which I still stood and the possibility that this statement of mine towards the Reich Commissar be reported to Himmler or somebody. This was the reason to go to Himmler in a hurry. At the end of August I traveled to him without having been asked by him to go to him, and to visit him in his field command position. Although I had no appointment I was received by him.
Q. Will you give the Tribunal a short description of this discussion with Himmler?
A. Himmler received me without words.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us have the date.
A. (Continuing) 'Are you trying to tell us --' I said at the end of August, 23rd, 24th, 25th approximately, perhaps the 26th, that is the last third of August.
THE PRESIDENT: Between the 23rd and 26th of August?
THE WITNESS: Let's say between the 22nd and the 26th approximately.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
A (continuing) Himmler received me with the words, "Are you trying to tell me that you had a row with Mueller, therefore you went back to this thing that had happened the year before?" I had not expected this and told him that that was not the reason why I had come to him, But he wanted to know what had happened between Mueller and myself. As I have tried to explain yesterday, I gave him a detailed. explanation of the development and the difference in the tasks that were in the Secret State Police and the Security Service, and during this discussion I tried to make it clear to him that owing to this difference in assignments, differences with Mueller had arisen, and that now it could not be certain that the SD could work successfully any more. I was repeatedly interrupted by him in this so that I was hardly able to give a continuous explanation. The remarks he made proved that he himself did not know anything about the differences in the tasks. He minimized the whole matter, of course, and showed his lack of interest in all these affairs. He concluded this discussion by exclaiming, "Are you trying to suggest to me that these tasks and these agencies have to be separated again?" I told him, "I consider it to be my duty, and I think I am authorized to make suggestions to that effect. I do not belong to the Reich Main Security Office any more. I only wanted to answer your question why these differences had arisen." He then replied, "Well, you are in Riga now, and everything is over there. You needn't bother about these questions any more." I now told him this was the very reason why I had come to him. I told him that Heydrich had only given me a temporary task in Riga, and owing to his death my transfer had not come about as it had been intended. I told him that it had been intended to put me into the Eastern Ministry, and now we discussed whether the tasks in the East were in my line. I told him at first it was only a matter of theory, but in the East one had to be practical. I said a definite sentence, and I talked about the executive problems which were difficult for the men, but I was interrupted and could not go on, and after that moment I hardly got a chance of talking again.
I was asked, "Are you a philosopher? what is the meaning of this? What do you mean, problems? All that is concerned are our orders." I think I have to explain this to you. "I have given the Handshuhbefehl, the glove order." I beg your pardon, I have to explain this. Himmler had given an order that when a superior was greeted or saluted the glove had to be taken from the hand. In the Army it was the other way around, the glove had to remain on the hand. Himmler said, "I have given this glove order. There are many who believe they do not have to bother about such an order because they don't like it. Anyone whom I meet who does not follow this order and obeys it in the strictest manner, I shall punish him very severely and harshly, and even if the contents of the order are ever so ridiculous, the contents of the order don't matter, all that matters is that it is an order, and those who don't obey the glove order prove that they do not want to carry out orders of great importance. Orders cannot be discussed or debated. Orders have to be obeyed, and that principle you don't seem to have realized yet. What is your age?" he asked. I replied, "I was born in 1904". "Oh, you are one of those people who never had any military training. No one here can be an officer or a general who cannot obey, because those who don't obey orders cannot give orders either. I must think about how I can train you to do this." having the possibility of replying to it. After sometime, while he was making these statements, he interrupted himself and looked at me rather surprised, and looked at me questioningly. He said, "Tell me, it has been reported to me that you have been ill. You are said to have had a nervous breakdown, is that right?" I confirmed this and said that for sometime I was hardly able to work. This was the reason why he changed the subject and his mood and explained and asked me whether I had a good physician. He mentioned a Dr. Fahrenkampf of Munich and became very friendly.
I was to be given in the Eastern Ministry. On this subject there was a general discussion during which he gave me some advice, what I should do if I should be put into the Eastern Administration sometime, and I could understand from this that he agreed to my transfer to this department. He did not make any difinite decision on the spot, but he sent me back, and as far as I remember, on the 2nd of September, 1942, that is about a week after this discussion, I received a teletype message which contained my transfer. generally? and I had no opportunity to have any personal relationship with him. This was the first opportunity to talk to him alone and at some length. The discussion took perhaps thirty to forty minutes. I had the possibility then to see him as a human being and to meet him personally, and the decisions I made on that occasion were not very favorable, although I realized that now my fate had been sealed, as far as that is concerned, because the criticism he used did not leave me any doubt. On the other hand, I was deeply moved because of the general spirit. That is that after that nothing could be changed in that order because one was not able even to discuss the order. The order was not explained. It was simply as order and one could not go beyond that. That was what overwhelmed me. In spite of all attempts I had made, nothing could be changed in principle.
I had kept back this Heydrich order. I talked to Heydrich twice and expressed my objection to the Reich Commissar. I tried to discuss the subject with Himmler, even if I was not able to discuss it properly. This did not change the order.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed.
A (Continuing) Owing to my rank and my position I had the possibility to discuss it again perhaps. Of all these defendants I held the highest rank at the time.
I was the Senior Chief in the RSHA. For that reason I had some possibility to do this.
Himmler may have had consideration for me, owing to my bad health, but I wanted at least to talk about things other people could not discuss any more, but since I could not have this order cancelled and revoked, none of the defendants could have done so, not all of them together could have achieved this. could not be changed and that the individual cannot stop fate, even if he tries ever so hard. I could not know whether other people had also tried, whether they were successful.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean by that remark that it is impossible to change any circumstances, that everything is predestined beforehand?
THE WITNESS: No; that in this situation it was not possible for the individual to revoke this order, other people would have had to do this.
THE PRESIDENT: You use a very general phrase that one cannot change fate. If you intend to adhere to that doctrine, then these trials are of no importance and nothing can be achieved by way of intelligent inquiry into anything, that everything is predestined and moves along in accordance with a patterned design supernaturally.
THE WITNESS: I merely wanted to say that the individual who came under this order did not have the power or the opportunity to stop events; that stronger forces would have had to come to stop Hitler. That is what I tried to express.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean by those stronger forces, the Allies?
THE WITNESS : If necessary, that too.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q (By Dr. Schwarz) Witness, have you finished answering this question?
Q Were executions carried out according to your oder?
Q How about the extermination of political opponents?
THE PRESIDENT: Which order do you refer to, Dr. Schwarz? You say, there are no executions following his order, which order?
DR. SCHWARZ: The Fuehrer Order as well as the order by Heydrich.
THE PRESIDENT: You asked him if any executions followed his order. I assume you mean the defendant's order, Jost's order. Now which order was that? Let's be specific. Let's have the date.
DR. SCHWARZ: Certainly, Your Honor. what I mean, is all orders which he issued based on the fuehrer Order and the order by Heydrich, the last one discussed, maybe orders he was given from the higher authorities, and as a result of which he gave orders. I asked him whether he gave orders on his own authority.
THE PRESIDENT: I want to know the date of Jost's order, not the Hitler Order nor the Heydrich order.
DR. SCHWARZ: My question, whether he himself had given the orders, the defendant answered with "no."
THE PRESIDENT: Repeat your question, please.
DR. SCHWARZ: Were any executions carried out on your order?
THE WITNESS: No, I did not give any order.
THE PRESIDENT: You were following his orders, the defendant's orders, and the defendant replies he gave no orders.
DR. SCHWARZ: Well, I don't know about any order which he might have given.
THE PRESIDENTL Then he did not give an order?
DR. SCHWARZ: No, he did not give one. That is what his reply tells us.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
(By Dr. Schwarz) What about time question of the extermination of political opponents? the prosecution charges me, never took place. The reports prove that the Communists who endangered public security were interned. All internees and their position were examined. They were released, if there was no reason to keep them arrested any longer. Sometimes, however, numbers were released. In Riga on 1 May 1942 at my suggestion Communists were released who had not been charged with anything serious. Similar measures occured in Estonia. There too I made the suggestion. The commander himself had already previously followed his own decision and seen to it that a great number were released and some more people were going to be released.
Q Were you absent from your office a number of times?
A I was in Berlin four times: approximately, between the 2nd and 8th of April, between the 20th and 28th of May, between the 15th of June and the 13th of July. Apart from that, I was absent repeatedly when visiting other Army agencies, Army groups, visiting the rear army and inspecting detachments. deputy and your men in case you should be absent?