had this Feuhrer Decree that all Jews were to be executed and you found these Jews before you, you would have executed the decree and you would have shot,the Jews, even though they had had no trial? kommando.
Q Well, all right, how would you have circumvented the order? Here are these 27 Jews in front of you. They are Jews and the order says you must kill all Jews. How would you have circumvented that order?
A Because I also had other tasks and could give them priority. I could leave a place where there were Jews because the Army advanced and, therefore these Jews?
Q All right. Now, did you tell Foltis, if you had known of this episode, would you have said, to Foltis, "Now, listen, Foltis, when you can avoid killing Jews, please do so, because I don't like that idea of killing Jews without a hearing," Would you have told him that?
Q You said Foltis was far away from you. You gave him independent control. He didn't come and ask you each time he was going to shoot a Jew or anybody. He had to know beforehand what your attitude was and before you sent him out in the field, did you say to him, "Now, I don't agree with this Fuehrer order in all its extent, and don't you shoot anybody unless you first have a trial." Did you tell him that?
Q Foltis was with you all of the time? for the few days when I visited the Sub-Kommando Welikie-Lucki, and I conscientiously recommended anti-partisan combatting to him because Foltis on his part preferred to be active as a soldier against partisans and not to shoot Jews.
Q Well, you said here in your testimony just a few minutes ago: "you left it ot Foltis to determine what shootings were to take plac." You left it up to him, didn't you? accordingly I was forced to leave the decision up to him.
Q You left it up to him whom he was to shoot? ing.
Q You left it up to him to determine whom to shoot. He was to decide whether they were partisans or not, is that right? determine this in such a form as I have described during my direct examination . He was to determine whether to shoot or not?
A In the cases, and at least 80% of the cases it was the question of joint operations with the army in which officials, and the Field Police, not Foltis, carried out an investigation.
Q Well, take those cases where the Army wasn't there. You said in 80% of the cases. In 20% of the cases did he decide whom to shoot?
A In the rest of the case's he decided, but, after that, he reported to me orally and also in writing, so that I was informed.
Q After he did the shooting, he advised you what he had done? carried out.
Q Please answer the question. After he had conducted the operation, he reported to you what he had done?
Q Yes, so he did have some independence of judgement? way? Did you tell him "Now shoot partisans; shoot spies; shoot saboteurs, but don't shoot Jews, just because they are Jews, or just because they won't work." Did you tell him that? examine conscientiously and conduct examinations.
Q And then you let him decide what to do? been assigned.
Q. You at no time told him not to shoot Jews, just because they were Jews? leaders, that is what I tried to reply in the direct examination, I did not revoke this order.
Q The Fuehrer Order said to shoot all Jews, didn't it?
Q All right, now did you tell Foltis not to obey that order?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, proceed. BY DR. MAYER: at any time against your combatting all partisans? partisan combatting was up to the military authorities, who ordered the operations. Secondly, there was not other possibility of fighting the partisans in their fighting which was contrary to international laws. this measure?
Q In connection with partisan fighting, did you give any orders? principle of justice and examination of each case and I pointed this out to Foltis and the other sub-kommando leaders.
Q Were you always informed about the various operations? the G-2 or by the G-2 CIC: After returning Foltis always gave me oral reports.
Q Was a written report sent to Einsatzgruppe B? handed on the The Group. Communist resistance, as well. In what manner was this carried out? aries that is, at least in the territory of the 9th army, the carrier of the partisan combatting. The Communist functionaries and its active supporters had withdrawn into the woods and the smaller villages after the Red Army had withdrawn in order to carry on Guerilla Warfare from there. This was done in such a manner that in some villages bases here established and attack units stationed themselves in the woods. The securing of the territory against Communist resistance was identical with the partisan combatting. recognize them as Communist functionaries? territory, the Kommando found the papers and the records of the Communist Party and of the NKWD.
Q Did these documents contain specific material? of some leading personalities in case of invasion of the enemy and of the resistance to be formed.
Q What measures were taken as a result of these documents? prerequisites for a systematic search for the active Communist leaders and of the NKWD. for shooting if a person before the German invasion had been a member of the Communist Party or had been a Communist functionary? shot. The functionaries owing to orders of the Russians which had become known had bean requested and bound to carry on active resistance.
THE PRESIDENT: We may have our recess now, if you don't mind. Recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Mayer, before you begin your direct examination the Tribunal will make the following announcement. When the Tribunal recesses on Friday afternoon, at the usual hour, it will not reconvene until the following Wednesday morning. Tuesday, November 11th, is an official holiday, a national holiday and Monday will also be a holiday. So that therefore anyone who wishes to make any arangements for that rather long week-end is now advised that he may make those arrangements.
DR. MAYER: I shall continue with my direct examination. of documents were the basis of the finding cut who the active Communists were among the partisans, and I have asked you the question ... Do you mean to say that, that in your Command it was no reason to shoot anybody if that person was a member of the Communist party before the invasion by the Germans? concerned, for that no one was shot. Functionaries of the Communist party, through the orders that had been announced by Stalin and the Russian war leadership, had been obligated for active resistance behind the fronts. Of these functionaries were found to have offered such resistance shootings were carried out. This is not a persecution for political reasons, but The punishment for crimes against the occupation power, and its directives.
Q What directives do you mean by this? public everywhere, it was announced both in the Russian and the German language, that the Communist party was dissolved, and every type of activity on its part, as well as participation, and assistance in partisan warfare would be punishable by death.
and in the investigations and judgments? given about anti-partisan warfare, that I gave a Foltis free hand in this field, but, during personal discussions I told him my point of viewnamely, that he should treat all cases justly. In the same manner I had a long conference with the director of the Russian service for the maintenance of order in order to tell him the same things. After Foltes had left, about the 15th of October 1941, when his successor dealt with few cases which were still under way I always made tests in the cases which were still being dealt with by his successor, to see whether they were being treated justly.
Q Were you convinced of the legality of the measures adopted?
A Yes. It corresponded with the directives of the army, and it was a question of punishbale resistance against the German occupying power. territory of your Commando. What happened as far as this question is concerned, in the area of Welish? any action against Jews. Other leaders, too, of my Commando, no such operations. reference to the Jews was neither carried out by you, nor by any of your subordinate offices?
Q For what reasons did this not happen? partisans and the breaking up of Communist resistance, Through this activity this Commando was so busy, and had been given orders concerning partisan warfare by the Army directly, the Jewish, question was pushed into the background.
The order for the execution of Jews, only because they Were Jews, was considered by me as humanity impossible. Of course, this opinion was not valid for those cases in which individual Jews or groups of Jews had committed crimes. In such a case I would, of course, have approved measures against Jews because like every inhabitant of occupied territory, they were under German jurisdiction and subject to German laws. order in the area of Welish? to my office, and as it has been carried out in some cases that I did not revoke this order - but I did not renew it, for my part, nor did I issue it again.
Q Could you have revoked the order? punishment, namely an obvious punishment for refusing to obey the order of the chief of state. give the order or renew it? that I did not insist on the execution of this order. execution of the order? no Jews, or very few Jews. This was possible on the basis of Army instruction which I had. This was valid for the area of Moscow, with the exception of the city of Moscow itself. Because in this area up to the revolution of 1917 the settlement of Jews had been prohibited by the Czarist government.
Q Did you see any other ways of evading the order?
I could keep the Commando busy with fighting partisans, so that if my superior would ask me about it I could point out to this activity of my Commando. And the final possibility was that I might move the Commando so near the fronts that the execution of the order would be impossible. For this reason I did so in the following period. in Wellikie Lucki? spent about two days with it.
Q What was the security position in this area? of the sub-commando, the city was relatively quiet. As far as I remember, there were hardly any Jews, or no Jews at all. On the other hand, in the vicinity of Welikie Lucki a partisan movement had been formed and the commando had accomplished several missions there.
15 November 1947_A_MSD_22_1_Hoxsie (Lea)
Q During your stay in Weliki_Luki did you give any orders for executions or did you confirm the orders already given, or did you demand that these orders be executed expressly?
A No. as far as this kommando is concerned. I asked that every individual case he thoroughly investigated and tried justly.
Q Were you later in Weliki_Luki again? that at the end of the month of September I was once more there for two days. kommando in Weliki_Luki carried out an anti-Jewish operation? and partisans? sent to me.
Q What were the following garrisons of your kommando? leadership of Foltis during the battle of Vyazma, moved toward Vyazama with a tank unit. with a mission to secure the documents in Vyazama. The kommando remained there for several days, about until the 15th of October Subkommanaos remained in Welish and Welikie_Luki at that time.
Q Where did you yourself stay in the following period of time? to discuss the advance of my kommando with the G_2, corresponding to the military Voperations as they had been laid down. As future garrisons Rshev and Kalinen were intended. I received the permission from the G_2 and his consent to move into these places with the combat troops. Order were issued by the Army to that effect. the front area?
5 November 1947_A_MSD_22_2_Hoxsie (Lea) of finding important documents, Secondly, the advance on Kalinin was considered a part of the operation against Moscow, the capture of which was expected. Thirdly, by moving my kommando up to the front troops, I hoped, as I just said, to evade the execution of the anti-Jewish order. about executing this order?
A Yes. After I returned to Welish from the G_2, after this conference which I have just mentioned, I found the news that Foltis had been recalled to Berlin, As a result I immediately had to go to the kommando in Vyazma. I did not know itsgarrison at that time but I had to go there to relieve Foltis. Therefore, I ordered the kommando Welish the order to bring in the subkommando in Weliki_Luki as soon as the road to Vyazma, was free, and to go there and to find out where the garrison was then I personally started the trip with twp vehicles, and since I went via Smolensk where Brigadier-General Nebe had his headquarters, I reported to him, and I informed him about my intention of advancing. On this occasion, Nebe came to talk about the prospective activity of the kommando in Moscow and he told me, among other things, that the kommando 7a had thus far not shot any Jewish women and children, but the Fuehrer order referred to all Jews, and the other would have to be carried out accordingly.
Q Did you object to Nebe about carrying out this order?
A No. After I clearly saw that this order had been given to this extent by the highest authority in the State, I considered expressing my opinion directly to Nebe impossible, impossible because of my tactics which I had started, I considered such an opinion as dangerous insofar as the order then certainly would have to be executed. knew that your kommando had not executed any Jews during your time? or my subordinate officers. He, therefore, could have only judged by 5 November 1947_A_MSD_22_3_Hoxsie (Lea) the experiences which he had made with my predecessor.
Q Did you go back to Welish or Weliki_Luki, after this conference? on this clear order of Nebe's to your subordinate offices?
A No. I did not pass it. on.
Q How did things develop after that? command of the subkommando Vyazma from Foltis who had now returned to There I set up a head quarters and moved to Kalinin with a small detachments of the subkommando in the last days of October, and in the early days of November. As far as I remember I reached Kalinin about the 7th of November. Up to my final departure from the kommando on the 10th of December, since approx. middle of November, Rshev and Kalinin were the garrisons of this kommando.
Q What happened to the subkommando Welish and Weliki_Luki? connections had been completely interrupted by partisan action. There fore, the end of October, beginning of November, they proceeded toward Rshev separately, Since a period of muddy weather had made the roads impassable and since a great number of vehicles got stuck because of this, the arrival of these subkommandos was delayed until the middle of November, Part of the time some detachments had spent some time in Smolensk with the Group. Kalinin? 27th of October, we were busy setting up a headquarters, end I also think I can remember that we made the beginning of setting up an auxiliary Russian police force. When I left for Kalinin its work had not yet started.
5 November 1947_A_MSD_22_4_Hoxsie (Lea) That happened whenever I reported to the Army Staff which was still a little further back. in Rshev?
A No, I don't remember any such details, I don't know whether executions were carried out there. Rshev? never heard of any, but if such an action had taken place I would certainly have hoard about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Then your answer to that question is that no execution did take place there?
THE WITNESS: That is right. As far as I was informed no such execution took place.
Q (By Dr. Mayer) What did your kommando do in Kalinin? front situation there were extraordinary conditions there. The front went along the northeastern border of the city. Therefore, during the entire time the city was under the artillery bombardment of the Russians. The German division staffs, for example, were still west of the city. The first house which we wanted to use as headquarters had to be evacuated because of direct hits.
The kommando suffered some casualties during this attack. The activity to secure the city area, which was always interrupted because of the front situation, was concerned exclusively with Russian espionage and with frequently appearing sabotage detachments. Here too we made an attempt to set up an auxiliary Russian police force, and at the request of the town commandant we picked out Rusian personalities and investigated them, who would be used for the preparation of the city.
5 November 1947_A_MSD_22_5_Hoxsie (Lea)
Q Did any executions take place during that time? attacks.
Q Were any Jews living in Kalinin?
Q Did executions of Jews take place?
A No. Because of the immediate proximity of the front area, which was connected with the immediate action by the enemy, this question did not actually come up for the missions of the kommando could only consist here of fighting espionage and partisans. Every superior would have had to see this point of view.
Q How long were you in Kalinin with your kommando?
A The kommando was there from about the 7th of November. May I correct myself? I personally was there from the 7th of November to about the 7th of December. During this time I was absent from there about two weeks - although not consequently - once in Smolensk and a few times in Rshev.
Q When did you personally leave Kalinin for the last time? Rshev in order to go to Germany on furlough.
Q Did you have permission to leave your kommando?
A Yes. I had gotten the consent of my superior, and with his consent I had handed over the kommando to a deputy.
5 November 1947_A_MSD_23_1_Hoxsie (Lea) entire activity as a kommando leader. As a kommando leader did you ever attend, an execution?
Q Did you ever order such an execution in individual cases? investigated or made check-ups on measures carried out by my subordinate officers, this investigation sometimes would confirm such an order. made of them?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Mayer, I didn't quite understand his answer. You asked him if he ever ordered an execution. He says generally not. Now, he either did order an execution or he did not, 'Generally not' to me signifies that he did order some executions even though that was not his usual practive. Now, did he or did he not order executions?
THE WITNESS: Your Honors in the following sentence I said that in those cases in which I investigated. Some cases handled by my subordinate officers and in which I had one of these officers submit to me one of those cases, and when his decision was to execute, then by examing the case I confirmed such a decision and thereby ordered such an execution.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, you did order an execution?
THE WITNESS: In a few individual cases which I examined myself I ordered executions, yes.
Q (By Dr. Mayer) during your activity was a current list of executions kept? the kommando nor was such a list kept during my time. listed in these documents originate from, where do they come from?
A I don't know. At any rate they were not listed by my kommando.
5 November 1947_A_MSD_23_2_Hoxsie (Lea) The documents submitted to me which show these total figures cannot possibly he correct in my opinion. May I come hack to this when I discuss the various documents?
Q On what was you collaboration with the Army based? Order which has been mentioned here before was assigned to the Ninth Army. On this the cooperation with the Army is based and the orders given by the Army to the kommando.
Q What did this order mean to you? tasks in the roar area of this Army and then safeguard important documentary material, furthermore, that that kommandoo as far as supply is concerned, was under the Army, and that for operational reasons the Army could exclude the activity of the kommando in certain localities.
Q Did such exclusions take place?
Q Were you only active in the rear Army area?
A No. When I received the order to go to Vyazma, Rshev and Kalinin I got the G_2's consent to use my kommando in the operational area, that is in the front area, as this had already been granted to predecessor. of the 9th Army?
A Yes. After my arrival I introduced myself to the G_2 of the Army, or rather I was introduced there by their liaison officer, and during my activity I had frequent conferences with the G_2.
Q Why did you just keep contact with the G_2? liaison with kommando. agencies?
5 November 1947_A_MSD_23_3_Hoxsie (Lea)
A Yes, especially with the G_2 counter intellegence officer. That is with the officer working on counterintellegence under G_2. Other agencies were field commands and town commands and divisional staffs. influence on your activity? the 9th Army, in view, of the partisan question, carried with it the fact that the kommando during my time worked almost exclusively under the direct order of the Army or under subordinate units of that Army. The executions mentioned in the documents can be traced back to. direct orders by Army agencies, or they are the results of such order.
Q During your presence in your kommandoo what was your work? already mentioned, I devoted myself to SD reports, and I tried to give as exact a picture as possible of the area of the Soviet Union in which I found myself.
5 November 1947_A_MSD_24_1_Spears (Lea)
Q But what did you report in these SD reports? system and collected documents about the position of the Russian church and Bolshevist state.
Q How did you acquire the documents of such reports? in their fields, and I had them report to me partly orally, partly in written form then I inspected a collective farm, and I had them give me documents about the size, the harvest about the quota of harvest, handed over about the machinery, etc. then I sopke to the workers in the collective farms by means of an interpreter, and also with former real estate owners. I then collected these impressions in a report. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Where did this all take place?
Q And how far away was that from the front? the time fixed until the time of October.
Q Now, you say that when you were up close to the front you didn't have time to consider the Jewish question, but you had time to go around collecting statistics on farms and crops and agriculture, and finding out how things grew, and did not grow, and you completely forgot about the Fuehrerorder which demanded immediate and complete action? periods, the area Welish-Welikielucki, on one hand, secondly, the area Rshew-Kalinin, on the other hand. In the area Welish-Welikielucki, the described partisan activity was cause for orders, on the part of the army. weren't you?
5 November 1947_A_MSD_24_2_Spears (Lea)
Q And "Einsatz" means "action"?
Q You were sent into the field for action? Jews, that was the purpose of Einsatzgruppe, wasn't it? the countryside, looking over farmland, and leisurely writing up reports, which you sent back, what about this order which you had? even with the Einsatzgruppe staff were such that next to the chief of the Einsatzgruppe there was an officer of SD reports, a Leader 3 and Va Leader 4, who was competent for police executive measures. These two items were both mentioned in this report. activity quiet also?
Q They were active? and wheat,and land and so on, if the partisans were active? partisans to Foltis and militarily trained leaders, and according to my activity which I had carried on before the Russian campaign, I was devoting myself to SD reports. this Fuehrerorder was purely academic, you were just a country farmer, and a little tout, and that you weren't engaged in fighting partisans or killing Jews, you were just on a nice, little jaunt, gathering up these reports and sending them in, is that what we are to understand?
5 November 1947_A_MSD_24_3_Spears (Lea) about these tasks, that I checked on their activities, and I have also explained why I, as a man with no militarily training did not participate in these partisan action. The documents show this action clearly, how they were carried out. partisans?
Q Well then you didn't have anything to do with shooting at all while you were in the field in charge of an Einsatzkommando? I carried out personal investigations. none? to the front in Kalinin, and to maintain contact with the army agencies.
Q Who appointed you to the Einsatzkommando?
Q Did Streckenbach know that you were gun shy? wildering to me how they could put you in charge of an active unit when you say that you didn't do any fighting against partisans, you didn't execute the Fuehrerorder to kill Jews, and you merely sat at a desk and wrote up reports on farms and confirmed reports which were sent to you by your subleaders. made check-ups, that I visited my subcommandos in the Welikielucki once or twick, and that I spoke to the subcommand officer about his activity. That I didn't lead a platoon of active SS men into the forests was due to the fact that I was not militarily in a position to lead such an expedition in the military manner, and as it had become evident 5 November 1947_A_MSD_24_4_Spears (Lea) in the documents, when two army divisions comb through a territory, clean out a territory, and the commando is supposed to furnish interrogation detachments, then I, as a commando leaders, who knew nothing about the interrogations until then would hardly be able to lead a tiny platoon of 5 interrogators in an Army unit.