5 November 1947_A_MSD_22_2_Hoxsie (Lea) of finding important documents, Secondly, the advance on Kalinin was considered a part of the operation against Moscow, the capture of which was expected. Thirdly, by moving my kommando up to the front troops, I hoped, as I just said, to evade the execution of the anti-Jewish order. about executing this order?
A Yes. After I returned to Welish from the G_2, after this conference which I have just mentioned, I found the news that Foltis had been recalled to Berlin, As a result I immediately had to go to the kommando in Vyazma. I did not know itsgarrison at that time but I had to go there to relieve Foltis. Therefore, I ordered the kommando Welish the order to bring in the subkommando in Weliki_Luki as soon as the road to Vyazma, was free, and to go there and to find out where the garrison was then I personally started the trip with twp vehicles, and since I went via Smolensk where Brigadier-General Nebe had his headquarters, I reported to him, and I informed him about my intention of advancing. On this occasion, Nebe came to talk about the prospective activity of the kommando in Moscow and he told me, among other things, that the kommando 7a had thus far not shot any Jewish women and children, but the Fuehrer order referred to all Jews, and the other would have to be carried out accordingly.
Q Did you object to Nebe about carrying out this order?
A No. After I clearly saw that this order had been given to this extent by the highest authority in the State, I considered expressing my opinion directly to Nebe impossible, impossible because of my tactics which I had started, I considered such an opinion as dangerous insofar as the order then certainly would have to be executed. knew that your kommando had not executed any Jews during your time? or my subordinate officers. He, therefore, could have only judged by 5 November 1947_A_MSD_22_3_Hoxsie (Lea) the experiences which he had made with my predecessor.
Q Did you go back to Welish or Weliki_Luki, after this conference? on this clear order of Nebe's to your subordinate offices?
A No. I did not pass it. on.
Q How did things develop after that? command of the subkommando Vyazma from Foltis who had now returned to There I set up a head quarters and moved to Kalinin with a small detachments of the subkommando in the last days of October, and in the early days of November. As far as I remember I reached Kalinin about the 7th of November. Up to my final departure from the kommando on the 10th of December, since approx. middle of November, Rshev and Kalinin were the garrisons of this kommando.
Q What happened to the subkommando Welish and Weliki_Luki? connections had been completely interrupted by partisan action. There fore, the end of October, beginning of November, they proceeded toward Rshev separately, Since a period of muddy weather had made the roads impassable and since a great number of vehicles got stuck because of this, the arrival of these subkommandos was delayed until the middle of November, Part of the time some detachments had spent some time in Smolensk with the Group. Kalinin? 27th of October, we were busy setting up a headquarters, end I also think I can remember that we made the beginning of setting up an auxiliary Russian police force. When I left for Kalinin its work had not yet started.
5 November 1947_A_MSD_22_4_Hoxsie (Lea) That happened whenever I reported to the Army Staff which was still a little further back. in Rshev?
A No, I don't remember any such details, I don't know whether executions were carried out there. Rshev? never heard of any, but if such an action had taken place I would certainly have hoard about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Then your answer to that question is that no execution did take place there?
THE WITNESS: That is right. As far as I was informed no such execution took place.
Q (By Dr. Mayer) What did your kommando do in Kalinin? front situation there were extraordinary conditions there. The front went along the northeastern border of the city. Therefore, during the entire time the city was under the artillery bombardment of the Russians. The German division staffs, for example, were still west of the city. The first house which we wanted to use as headquarters had to be evacuated because of direct hits.
The kommando suffered some casualties during this attack. The activity to secure the city area, which was always interrupted because of the front situation, was concerned exclusively with Russian espionage and with frequently appearing sabotage detachments. Here too we made an attempt to set up an auxiliary Russian police force, and at the request of the town commandant we picked out Rusian personalities and investigated them, who would be used for the preparation of the city.
5 November 1947_A_MSD_22_5_Hoxsie (Lea)
Q Did any executions take place during that time? attacks.
Q Were any Jews living in Kalinin?
Q Did executions of Jews take place?
A No. Because of the immediate proximity of the front area, which was connected with the immediate action by the enemy, this question did not actually come up for the missions of the kommando could only consist here of fighting espionage and partisans. Every superior would have had to see this point of view.
Q How long were you in Kalinin with your kommando?
A The kommando was there from about the 7th of November. May I correct myself? I personally was there from the 7th of November to about the 7th of December. During this time I was absent from there about two weeks - although not consequently - once in Smolensk and a few times in Rshev.
Q When did you personally leave Kalinin for the last time? Rshev in order to go to Germany on furlough.
Q Did you have permission to leave your kommando?
A Yes. I had gotten the consent of my superior, and with his consent I had handed over the kommando to a deputy.
5 November 1947_A_MSD_23_1_Hoxsie (Lea) entire activity as a kommando leader. As a kommando leader did you ever attend, an execution?
Q Did you ever order such an execution in individual cases? investigated or made check-ups on measures carried out by my subordinate officers, this investigation sometimes would confirm such an order. made of them?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Mayer, I didn't quite understand his answer. You asked him if he ever ordered an execution. He says generally not. Now, he either did order an execution or he did not, 'Generally not' to me signifies that he did order some executions even though that was not his usual practive. Now, did he or did he not order executions?
THE WITNESS: Your Honors in the following sentence I said that in those cases in which I investigated. Some cases handled by my subordinate officers and in which I had one of these officers submit to me one of those cases, and when his decision was to execute, then by examing the case I confirmed such a decision and thereby ordered such an execution.
THE PRESIDENT: Well then, you did order an execution?
THE WITNESS: In a few individual cases which I examined myself I ordered executions, yes.
Q (By Dr. Mayer) during your activity was a current list of executions kept? the kommando nor was such a list kept during my time. listed in these documents originate from, where do they come from?
A I don't know. At any rate they were not listed by my kommando.
5 November 1947_A_MSD_23_2_Hoxsie (Lea) The documents submitted to me which show these total figures cannot possibly he correct in my opinion. May I come hack to this when I discuss the various documents?
Q On what was you collaboration with the Army based? Order which has been mentioned here before was assigned to the Ninth Army. On this the cooperation with the Army is based and the orders given by the Army to the kommando.
Q What did this order mean to you? tasks in the roar area of this Army and then safeguard important documentary material, furthermore, that that kommandoo as far as supply is concerned, was under the Army, and that for operational reasons the Army could exclude the activity of the kommando in certain localities.
Q Did such exclusions take place?
Q Were you only active in the rear Army area?
A No. When I received the order to go to Vyazma, Rshev and Kalinin I got the G_2's consent to use my kommando in the operational area, that is in the front area, as this had already been granted to predecessor. of the 9th Army?
A Yes. After my arrival I introduced myself to the G_2 of the Army, or rather I was introduced there by their liaison officer, and during my activity I had frequent conferences with the G_2.
Q Why did you just keep contact with the G_2? liaison with kommando. agencies?
5 November 1947_A_MSD_23_3_Hoxsie (Lea)
A Yes, especially with the G_2 counter intellegence officer. That is with the officer working on counterintellegence under G_2. Other agencies were field commands and town commands and divisional staffs. influence on your activity? the 9th Army, in view, of the partisan question, carried with it the fact that the kommando during my time worked almost exclusively under the direct order of the Army or under subordinate units of that Army. The executions mentioned in the documents can be traced back to. direct orders by Army agencies, or they are the results of such order.
Q During your presence in your kommandoo what was your work? already mentioned, I devoted myself to SD reports, and I tried to give as exact a picture as possible of the area of the Soviet Union in which I found myself.
5 November 1947_A_MSD_24_1_Spears (Lea)
Q But what did you report in these SD reports? system and collected documents about the position of the Russian church and Bolshevist state.
Q How did you acquire the documents of such reports? in their fields, and I had them report to me partly orally, partly in written form then I inspected a collective farm, and I had them give me documents about the size, the harvest about the quota of harvest, handed over about the machinery, etc. then I sopke to the workers in the collective farms by means of an interpreter, and also with former real estate owners. I then collected these impressions in a report. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Where did this all take place?
Q And how far away was that from the front? the time fixed until the time of October.
Q Now, you say that when you were up close to the front you didn't have time to consider the Jewish question, but you had time to go around collecting statistics on farms and crops and agriculture, and finding out how things grew, and did not grow, and you completely forgot about the Fuehrerorder which demanded immediate and complete action? periods, the area Welish-Welikielucki, on one hand, secondly, the area Rshew-Kalinin, on the other hand. In the area Welish-Welikielucki, the described partisan activity was cause for orders, on the part of the army. weren't you?
5 November 1947_A_MSD_24_2_Spears (Lea)
Q And "Einsatz" means "action"?
Q You were sent into the field for action? Jews, that was the purpose of Einsatzgruppe, wasn't it? the countryside, looking over farmland, and leisurely writing up reports, which you sent back, what about this order which you had? even with the Einsatzgruppe staff were such that next to the chief of the Einsatzgruppe there was an officer of SD reports, a Leader 3 and Va Leader 4, who was competent for police executive measures. These two items were both mentioned in this report. activity quiet also?
Q They were active? and wheat,and land and so on, if the partisans were active? partisans to Foltis and militarily trained leaders, and according to my activity which I had carried on before the Russian campaign, I was devoting myself to SD reports. this Fuehrerorder was purely academic, you were just a country farmer, and a little tout, and that you weren't engaged in fighting partisans or killing Jews, you were just on a nice, little jaunt, gathering up these reports and sending them in, is that what we are to understand?
5 November 1947_A_MSD_24_3_Spears (Lea) about these tasks, that I checked on their activities, and I have also explained why I, as a man with no militarily training did not participate in these partisan action. The documents show this action clearly, how they were carried out. partisans?
Q Well then you didn't have anything to do with shooting at all while you were in the field in charge of an Einsatzkommando? I carried out personal investigations. none? to the front in Kalinin, and to maintain contact with the army agencies.
Q Who appointed you to the Einsatzkommando?
Q Did Streckenbach know that you were gun shy? wildering to me how they could put you in charge of an active unit when you say that you didn't do any fighting against partisans, you didn't execute the Fuehrerorder to kill Jews, and you merely sat at a desk and wrote up reports on farms and confirmed reports which were sent to you by your subleaders. made check-ups, that I visited my subcommandos in the Welikielucki once or twick, and that I spoke to the subcommand officer about his activity. That I didn't lead a platoon of active SS men into the forests was due to the fact that I was not militarily in a position to lead such an expedition in the military manner, and as it had become evident 5 November 1947_A_MSD_24_4_Spears (Lea) in the documents, when two army divisions comb through a territory, clean out a territory, and the commando is supposed to furnish interrogation detachments, then I, as a commando leaders, who knew nothing about the interrogations until then would hardly be able to lead a tiny platoon of 5 interrogators in an Army unit.
Apart from that in the firs two weeks.... nothing about partisan fighting, you knew nothing about the military, you knew nothing about actively conducting a platoon, and you could just as well have remained in Stuttgart, couldn't you, insofar as carrying out the program of the Fuehrer was concerned?
Q Where did you lead them to? to Kalinin at the moment when Foltis left.
Q You led them in an automobile?
Q Well, you were in a motor vehicle, weren't you?
Q You never led them into any action, you didn't lead them into any fight? so we will take you back to the farm, all right, Dr. Mayer. BY DR. MAYER:
Q Didn't you have an SD expert for these jobs that you described After he was transferred to Germany there was no such expert any more in my commando. Soviet State?
A Yes. I found an edition in the German langauge, published in 5 November 1947_A_MSD_24_5_Spears (Lea) Moscow, of Stalin's speeches.
From this I made excerpts and sent them to the Einsatzgruppe.
Q Why didn't, you return to your commando after your furlough had expired? Reich Security Main Office to relieve me. Thereupon a certificate by a dentist was demanded which I submitted.
Q When were you relieved?
Q Where were you then sent?
Q When did you receive your renewed order to report to Russia?
Q How did this new order come about?
PRESIDENT: Now, if it is a lengthy story, I suppose we should hear it tomorrow morning. What did you wish to say, Dr, Gawlik?
DR. GAWLIK: Could I ask that the defendant, Seibert, be excused tomorrow morning in order to prepare the defense?
PRESIDENT: The defendant, Seibert, will be excused from attending court tomorrow morning in order that he may prepare his defense with his counsel. Do you have anything further, Dr. Mayer, to present?
DR. MAYER: No, Your Honor.
PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be recessed until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
DR. RIEDIGER (for the defendant Haensch): Your Honor, I ask that the defendant Haensch be excused from today's session of Cour and that he be brought to Room 57 for the purpose of preparing his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Haensch will he excused from today's session of Court and will be taken to Room 57 in accordance with the request of his counsel.
DR. HOFFMANN (for the defense Nosske): Your Honor, I ask that the defendant Nosske be excused from tomorrow entire session, in order to prepare for his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Nosske also will be excused from today' session of Court.
DR. MAYER (For defendant Steimle): Your Honor, I would like to be permitted to continue with my direct examination.
DR. HOFFMANN: I beg your pardon .... my colleague has drawn my attention to the fact that the translation said the Court has excused my defendant for today.I meant for tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: The correction will he made in the record. The defendant Nosske will not he excused today, but from tomorrow's session of Court. BY DR. MAYER:
Q. Witness, we come now to your two commands for Russia. The question is, when did you receive your new order to report to Russia?
A. About the middle of August 1942.
Q. How did this order come about?
A. There is a lengthy story connected with this order. Since the beginning of the war I was in contact with Office VI, the Foreign Information Service, and I maintained foreign contacts for this office from my Stuttgart office. Within this activity I had gotten in touch with Schellenberg, the Chief of Office VI. After my first return from Russia, Schellenberg tried to transfer me to his office as a deaprtment chief. This was not successful because Streckenbach objected to it. Who, for reasons unknown to me, refused this request of Schellenberg's. When in August 1942, on my trip to Russia, I reported, to Schellenberg in order to have my renewed order to report to Russia revoked and to seek a support for that, he said that such an effort would probably be in vain. He knew that this order came about in order to prevent me from joining him as a collaborator. Nevertheless, on the occasion of the stay in Berlin Schellenberg continued to make efforts to have this order rescinded, and the then chief of personnel Schulz - tried this too but Streckenbach kept on refusing.
Q. After this refusal of Strechenbach, did you see any other possibility of evading this new order to report in Russia?
A. No. I would have had only the way of an open refusal to obey orders, with its clear and obvious consequences.
Q. What kommando was given to you this time?
A. The Special Kommando 4-a.
Q. During what time did you command this kommando?
A. During the end of August 1942, until the 15th of January 1943.
Q. To what Einsatzgruppe was 4-a subordinate?
A. The Kommando belonged to Einsatzgruppe C, and was subordinate to the commanding officer of this Gruppe, Gruppen Leader Thomas. The latter had his headquarters in Kiev. At the same time he was commander of the security police and SD in the entire Ukraine.
His jurisdictional area, therefore, extended from the Polish border to the Valga River.
Q. From whom did you take o ver command of this Kommando 4-a?
A. My predecessor was Dr. Weinmann, who handed over the command to me.
Q. What was the situation in 4-a when you took over?
A. The main part of the kommando. which was not so strong as the Kommando 7-a, was in the area of the 6th German Army which at that time was advancing toward Stalingrad. Further: a liaison staff was with the Hungarian army. Sub-kommandos were in the sees of the Second German Army.
Q. Where were you, yourself?
A. The situation brought about such a spreading about of the kommando; because of the tremendous distances it was impossible for me to maintain contact with the entire kommando. Those were distances of about 800 kilometers. Therefore, I maintained the regulations set down by my predecessor, namely, that the small subkommandos in the Second German Army area would remain subordinated to the local field commands, and that the kommando would furnish a liaison officer to the Second German Army. The latter also maintained contact with the Hungarian Army.
Q. What was the relationship to the Hungarian Army, and how was it regulated?
A. The small staff there was to guarantee the exchange of information within the entire German liaison staff. It did not have an activity of its own since the area was under the Hungarian sovereignty.
Q. Describe your activity in the area of the Sixth Army.
A. The sequence of my garrisons were: Tschernishewkaya, NishnitsShirskaja and Kallarth on the Don River. The first mentioned place was a small village on the steppes of the Don River. As far as the other two are concerned, they are also small towns.
Q. Why did you pick these places?
A. In order to be near the army staff.
Q. Was any activity carried out in the sense of your orders in this area?
A. No. The territory showed no Jewish inhabitants.... was very sparsely inhabited.... one could drive for hours without finding a single village; as far as I remember, active resistance was only met in one individual case. This was a staff of a partisan movement which was just begining to develop, which was betrayed to us by a deserter. Otherwise, the area gave no cause for partisan marriage. There were hardly any forests. During the advance towards the above mentioned group there was a fight during which the partisans were killed in the course of the fighting.
Q. Didn't they surrender?
A. No, they didn't.
Q. What did the other activity of your kommando consist of during this time?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Mayer, the witness stated that rather abstractly. There was a fight. We know partisans were on one side. Who was on the other side? Does he mean that his kommando fought the partisans? That is a little unclear.
WITNESS: I mean to say by this that this partisan unit was fought by my kommando.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
BY DR. MAYER:
Q. Witness, I repeat my question. Of what did the other activity of your kommando consist during this time?
A. During the period of September and the beginning of October -the kommando was almost completely idle. The army already fought in the suburbs and the southern parts of Stalingrad, and we awaited the capture of Stalingrad. In view of this I had several conferences with the G-2, the Quartermaster of the Army, and the town commandant who was to command Stalingrad.
Q. What were the contents of these conference?
A. The activity of my kommando after the capture of Stalingrad.
Q. Was your kommando active in the area of Stalingrad?
A. No. This was impossible, considering the combat situation. There were only small parts of the city in the hands of the Army. At the end of September I personally was in this city for only one day. The kommando or parts of the kommando were never there. And no town commandant was installed there either at that time.
Q. When and why was your kommando relieved from the Sixth Army area?
A. After I received an order from Thomas, in the end of September, to take up contact with the Italian army which was being committed in the Don area, so that my competence was distributed to four armies, expressed justified misgivings to this distribution of the kommando in a radio message. I could not even take a semblance of responsibility for the kommando. Gruppenfuehrer Thomas, therefore, visited me. During this visit I suggested to him that he take my kommando out of the Sixth Army area because another kommando, namely, 4-b, was also marching on Stalingrad from the south with a tank unit. Thomas approved this, and he ordered that I join the Second Army. This was the area of Kursk. The liaison staffs to the Hungarian and Italian armies were to be continued to be supplied by me. After this decision I put the kommando under the leadership of my deputy and had it proceed toward Kursk. I personally handed over my headquarters to the Kommando leader of 4-b, and introduced the kommando leader of 4-b to the several army agencies.
After that, I installed the liaison staff with the Italian army, visited the leadership staff with the Hungarian army, and reached Kursk about the end of October 1942.
Q. What activity was your kommando engaged in, in Kursk?
A. I must say here that at this time Kursk had been in German hands for more than a year that a Russian auxilliary police force existed there, and German civilian administration was already active in many, varied fields. During my time cases of attacks against army members, carried out by illegal Communist activities were being dealt with. Furtheremore, I know of cases of Bolshevist agents and a very extensive case of sabotage. In two cases anti-partisan operations were carried out.
Q. In what manner were these cases dealt with?
A. The investigation was carried out partly independently by officers of my kommando, partly in collaboration with the secret field police; very frequently the Russian auxiliary police force was used in preliminary investigations because we had confidence men among them. My deputy, Sturmbannfuehrer Schmidt, made the conclusive investigation and proposed the sentence. If these cases involved Wehrmacht units in the area of the city of Kursk itself, I, or my deputy, submitted the case to the town commandant. In other cases, I confirmed, when I was present, the judgment by reviewing the case myself.
Q. During your activity in Kursk, were executions carried out of Jews, Gypsies and so-called social elements?
A. No; an execution of Jews was neither ordered by me, nor was it carried out by my kommando in Kursk. An order to shoot Gypsies or a social elements was not known to me at any time.
Q. In your affidavit you stated that your commando....
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, Dr, Mayer ... I am sorry to interrupt. I dodn't quite understand the answer of the witness to the effect that the killing of Jews, Gypsies and a-socials were not known to him at any time.
Does he mean by that that he was not familiar with the Fuehrer order which specifically ordered the executions of peoples in those categories, or does he mean that he was familiar with the order but that no executions of those peoples occurred, to his knowledge. It is not clear.
WITNESS: My answer is to the effect that I knew the order about the treatment of Jews, but that this was not carried out in the area of Kursk. On the other hand, at no time did I know of any order to shoot Gypsies or a-social elements.
THE PRESIDENT: You did not know that that was included in the purport of the original order?
WITNESS: No, not as far as Gypsies and a-socials were concerned.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. Witness, in your affidavit you stated that your kommando IV A had a gas van? What is you comment on this?
A. Among the vehicles there was a so-called gas van. I did not speak of gas chambers during any interrogation, exit is claimed by the Prosecution. I heard of the existence of such a van in Kursk by the officer of the motor pool. He told me on the occasion of a conference that there was a so-called "G*van" among the vehicles which he had used as a transport-vehicle. The car was no longer usable for the original purpose, because it was being used for transportation purposes. I don't know whether this happened, because it had been reconstructed, or whether it was just being used for transportation.
Q. Thus during your activity as kommando leader, you never killed or had any one killed by means of this van?
A. No, I never did so.
Q. Were you never reprimanded by your group chief because of lack of activity?
A. Apart from the fact that my kommando took care of the matters currently, Kursk was so far away from Kiev, and Thomas was so busy with the activity in his wide area, that he did not even bother about my kommando. I merely saw him during a conference about the order for my kommando to leave Stalingrad.
Q. Didn't you ever receive any decisive orders from him?
A. The orders for example to proceed to the area of the Second Army; then once during the period of Kursk I once received the order that I was to furnish a number of officials and drivers to the commanding officer of Charkow, so that the kommando IV-A in Kursk still had five officials, several dirvers and a number of regular policemen.
Q. Were there any other factors which determined your activity in Kursk?
A. In the month of December typhus epidemic broke out in my kommando, just as well as it did in the prison, which stopped for weeks. Then in December in the southern sector of my area the fronts began to waver, i.e. in the Hungarian and Italian sector.