THE PRESIDENT:Very well. Does any defense counsel desire to cross-examine the witness? If not, Mr. Hochwald will proceed with the cross-examination.
Witness, do you feel entirely at ease and able to answer questions put to you?
THE WITNESS:I beg your pardon, Your Honor, if I have answered the questions today and yesterday slightly haltingly. It is no bad intention. I sometimes do not find the right words. I think it is mainly due to a state of exhaustion and I thought I had overcome it, but it is due to some kind of disease, which I had from 1946 until 1947. I was in the hospital then and I was in a complete state of exhaustion after I had broken down.
THE PRESIDENT:I would suggest that when a question is put to you, you make certain that you understand it thoroughly and then respond and you take just asmuch time as you believe is necessary to understand with a full comprehension of what you are saying.
THE WITNESS:Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD:
Q.May it please the Tribunal; Dr. Haensch, we can just start where your counsel left off about your membership in the NSDAP and the SS and the SD. Is it correct that you joined -- is it correct that you joined the NSDAP in 1931?
A.That is correct.
Q.And the SS in 1935?
A.No, I have already mentioned that I joined the SS on the 1st of May 1936.
Q. 1936?
A.Yes.
Q.Did you ever swear the oath of allegiance to Adolf Hitler?
AYes, I Swore this oath as an official and as a member and it that moment when I became amember of the SS, the SS oath became equally valid. Personally, I cannot remember now whether I swore a personal oath, by making the oath itself, or whether it was so automatic and regarded as my transfer altogether was automatic, my transfer into the SS, but that, of course, is negligent and of minor importance. Of course, the oath wasjust asvalid for me asit was for others.
QYou felt you were bound to this oath?
AYes.
QWhen actually did you first contact with SD take place?
AAs I have already said. my first contact with the SD was into Doebeln in connection with this dispute which I mentioned, after the consequences had made themselves felt. Until that point, I had perhaps, shall we say anonymous contact, because I had not known that the report was meant for the SD, but I was told that it was for the SS. That again is of negligent importance.
Q.So, if I am correct, you had your first contact with the SD after you were dismissed from your position in Doebeln. That was in autumn, 1935, is that correct?
A.No, both these statements are not quite correct. Just a moment, may I ask you to ask the first part of this question again. I have already forgotten.
Q.Did you not state that your first contact with the SD took place after you had been dismissed from Doebeln?
AThis first question is not quite correct, Mr. Prosecutor. No, not after I had been released, a ccording to my memory, because then I was for some time -- I don't know whether it was eight or fourteen day -I was released before the first measures. On the same day the Kroisleiter, (District Leader), came and at that time immediately after my first contact, I would say, my onlightenment concerning the SD cam about; my report to the SD.
QIn other words, before you had this incident with the mayor of Doebeln, making this report, you had never had any contact with the SD. That is right?
AYes, that is correct.
QYou have stated in your affidavit and you have also testified here at great length about the facts, how it came about that you joined the SD and consequently the SS. In your affidavit, which is Document Book III-C on page 47, German 80, Document 4567, Prosecution Exhibit 140, you said that you were forced to join the SD and the SS. You have amended this statement by testifying that you received an officer from the SD which you accepted as you had no opportunity to get a job in Civil Service, is that correct?
QMr. Prosecution, I think a number of questions are contained in this one question that you have just asked. First of all say that I had stated in some place that I had been forced to join the SS and the SD. Is that what you mean? I never and in no place said that I was forced to join. I don't know what point you mean.
QOn page 46 of the English. I do think it is on page 80 of the German.
AYes.
QYou will find the sentence, "My activity there, involuntarily, became of decisive importance in my further professional career and this in a negative sense in as far as I was prevented for years from my endeavors of becoming active in the service of the general state administration, and was forced to judicial activity within the SD and the SS." Possibly; I do only want to make it clear; is it correct that you received an offer from the SD and accepted this offer?
AI answered this, Your Honor, but I must clarify this. There must be a mistake in the translation in the English text. Apparently it says, as I hear from you now that I had been forced, because it says, in the original document, I quote, "My activity there" -- that is, in Doebeln -- "became of major importance eventually for my further professional career and was" -- and here it should not say "war" but "zwar."
There is a letter left out. "It was of minor significance in so far as for years I had made attempts to take up activity within the service of the State Administration and I was prevented and automatically" -- It doesn't say "forced", "zwangslaufig" ("Zwangslaufig" is "automatically") and again there is a mistake, "juristiarisch" (legal activity) within the SD and therefore the SS."
QMay I then ask you whether the word "zwangsweise" means -- or whether you intended to say that you were forced to enter the SD?
ANo, it does not say "zwangsweise." It means "zwangslaufig." "zwangslaufig" does not mean that I was forced to join the SD, personally, in any way, but the ill conditions, as such, the fact that I had no job as an excluded Party member, I could not find any corresponding activity. This automatically meant that I accepted the offer of the SD to do work with them in some legal activity, as a legal counsel.
QIt is then correct that you joined the SD voluntarily, is that correct?
ANobody forced me. I joined voluntarily. I took over this activity voluntarily in this department. Psychologically, of course, I was in a sort of forced position. Otherwise, of course, I would have chosen another activity; the activity in the General Administration which I had been offered, for which I had been put down on the waiting list, and I was waiting to be called, and, as I had been put down on the list in Dresden, the District Leader, the (Gauleiter), of course, was In the position to cross all my plans, and, now, of course......
QI do not want to prevent you from explaining, but you have told the Tribunal all this which you have just said now in your direct examination. I do think it will be easier for you and for all of usif you just answer the question and give information only, information you did not volunteer for your direct examination.
AYes.
QHow was it with your entrance into the SS? Your entrance into the SS was a voluntary one too, is that correct?
AWell, this I may perhaps explain. The real state of affairs was that it really came about automatically. Again even now it says -
QI would like you to answer my question first.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, he has stated, Mr. Hochwald -
THE WITNESS:You want to know whether I voluntarily joined the SS, well, in any way I was not forced, -
THE PRESIDENT:The witness stated when he joined the SD voluntarily, he became a member of the SS automatically. The joining of the SD carried with it whatever naturally followed, so, therefore, when he joined the SD, he automatically, and, therefore, voluntarily joined the SS because that followed.
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: The only question I wanted to ask; I wanted to ask the witness in this connection, whether this joining of the SS was the automatic result of his membership in the SD. Nothing else.
THE PRESIDENT:Yes.
Q (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) is that correct that your transfer to the SS was the automatic result of your membership in the SD?
AYes, I want to correct one thing, though, Mr. Prosecutor, that it carried it with it -- but I do not want you to conclude that the 1st of August I actually joined the SS. I joined in 1936 on the 1st of August not in 1935, because I see from the expressions used here, that it is all somewhat strange.
QWitness, you were asked by the Tribunal -- I beg the Tribunal's pardon for touching this point again -- you had testified that even before the war you tried to be released from the SD, is that correct?
AYes.
Q.For this reason, you made frequent applications, did you not?
A.Yes.
Q.What exactly were the contents of these applications?
A.The content of these applications, Mr. Prosecutor, were nothing but my request to give me now the opportunity, as I had originally intended, to be transferred into the interior administration of the State.
Q.So, I am then correct in assuming that these applications were applications for transfer in the internal administration, is that right?
A.Yes.
Q.But you actually never made an application to be released from the SD just for the reason that you were unwilling to do the job in the SD. Is it not clear from your statement, Dr. Haensch, that you just wanted to make a better choice, but that, as you did not get the position in the Civil Service you just stayed in the SD, is that right?
A.I don't understand your question. There are too many questions again contained there.
Q.It is very simple. Did you ever make an application to be released from the SD, just released from the SD, as you did not want to be a member of this organization?
A.I did not ever see anything detrimental concerning the SD. I had no cause to threw dirt at the SD.
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Hockwald, that answers your question. It is a sort of round about way. You asked him whether he ever sought to leave the SD. He says he saw no reason to leave the SD. That means that he never tried to leave the SD.
Q. (By Mr. Herlick-Hockwald) So you were not actually under military orders to stay in the SD. You would have been able to leave this organization if you would have requested to do so?
A.But, Mr. Prosecutor, you can see it from the fact that my requests were constantly refused that I could not do what I wanted to. I was, after all, a member of this machinery and this organization of the RSHA and therefore, also, of he SD and the Security Police and SD.
Of course I was subordinated to the Chief of the Security Police and the SD. If you want to call that military power; the word "military" I don't know what to do with. Of course, I was in a sort of position-
Q.Witness, may I interrupt you? May I interrupt you for a minute? Would it have been possible for you between 1936 and 1939 to leave the SD, be released from the SD or will you tell the Tribunal that at the moment you joined the SD you must -- you had to stay in the SD all your life? That is what I am asking you.
A.Well, Mr. Prosecutor, then, of course, I must say that I would not have had this possibility. Even if the Chief of the SD had approved my leaving the service, I myself could not have left on my own initiative. That was the forced position that I was in. I can say that here: it worried me very much mentally.
Q.Was that during the war or before the war, Dr. Haensch?
A.We have talked now about the time before the war.
Q.Will you tell the Tribunal that membership in the SD and the SS before the war was involuntary and that anybody who once joined one of these organizations could never leave it any more. Will you tell me that? Are you going to tell that to the Tribunal? Please make your answer clear. It is a very case question to answer.
A.If you see anything involuntary in this, then, of course, this corresponds to the fact, and, of course, now all the directives and regulations were valid for me that were valid for all the other members, and now, of course, as I say, I was not free any longer. I could not take my own fate into my hands, as I would have liked to do, but, as I always constantly-
Q.You don't understand. This is not the question. The question is whether you would have been able to make an application for a release from the SD and whether there was an actual order or decree which made it impossible for somebody to ask for a release and to be . released from one of the two organizations in which you were from 1936.
You do not answer my question. I think there is only one question. Was there an order or a decree existing in Germany that a person who once joined the SS or the SD could never be released any more? Can you anser that?
A.No, I do not know of an order or a decree to this effect or, at least, not in that shape. The following directives were valid.....
THE PRESIDENT:You have answered the question. Mr. Hochwald, when your question have been answered, ask another question because -
Q. (By Mr. Horlick-Hochwald) So there was no decree or order, was there?
A.Well, there was a decree to the following effect; that I would like to mention. This was really valid in connection with the SS members. A man who had been transferred to the SS, and, in my case, that would have been to the SD, he, -- I don't remember after how long. I think perhaps one year -- he could leave for reasons of health. Only there were three or four points. I think it was for health, reasons of health, if physicians confirmed it. Then there was also automatic exclusion resulting from any actions, and there was one other point, but I don't remember clearly. These were the regulations which, of course, were also valid for the SS and SD. I never saw these matters as complicated as you put them, Mr. Prosecutor. I have tried to achieve some kind of professional satisfaction, but that was not possible, because it was refused. I myself was not free, therefore in any full power of decision.
Q.I don't want to press this point. You have said about -
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Hochwald, I think the witness made it very clear that he never desired to leave the SD, except to get a better job. Now, if he never desired to leave, then it is evident that he was satisfied to stay.
MR.HORLICK*HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal understands the testimony of the witness in that way. I am perfectly satisfied, but the witness, of course, has just said "no" again in contradiction to that which he has said ten months ago, that he was never free, so he tries obviously to give the impression that he was involuntarily a member of this criminal organization.
If he states here -- and that is what I am asking him all the time -- he remained in these two organization voluntarily, I do think there should be no further line of questioning on this point, but it is very hard, I am sorry to say, to follow his explanations, although he, is a lawyer, he does not know the difference between legal force and inner force, force which is the wish for a better job, a better position, and he mixes it up in a way, I don't understand really, so may I ask one last question?
QDid you join, and did you remain in these two organizations - the SD and the SS, voluntarily. Will you answer this question with yes or no, please?
THE PRESIDENT:The trouble is -
THE WITNESS:I can only answer it in the affirmative. I could not leave the organization.
THE PRESIDENT:You see, Mr. Hochwald, you put two questions in your last proposition. Did you join, and did you remain.
MR. HOCHWALD:Yes, sir, I did.
THE PRESIDENT:Well, those are two questions.
MR. HOCHWALD:I said, did you join ... that seems to be -
THE PRESIDENT:You joined voluntarily. That's clear, isn't it?
THE WITNESS:Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:Now that is disposed of. Don't ask that question again. And the next question - we are able to recuperate in the next fifteen minutes from what has proceeded.
( A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. RIEDIGER:Your Honor, I must ask your pardon if I come with a special request -- I beg that the witness Schreyer be interrogated....
THE PRESIDENT:Your request is granted without even your putting it. Yes. We will hear this witness, even though we have to break into the cross examination - so that the witness, as we understand, can get away as she would like to, this afternoon. Very well.
DR. RIEDIGER:Thank you.
GERTRUDSCHREYER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE DIXON:Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Allmighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
( The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE DIXON:You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. RIEDIGER:
QWitness, will you please state your name?
AMy name is Gertrud Schreyer.
QWhen were you born?
A 1 June 1902, Halle on the Saale.
QWhere is your permanent residence?
ABerlin-Zehlendorf, Teltower Damm 33.
QWitness, do you know Dr. Walter Haensch?
AYes, Dr. Walter Haensch was in my photographic studio in Berlin, Zehlendorf, to have his photo taken, on 21 February, 1942.
QHow do you know the exact date?
AMy records show this.
QIs an error in date possible?
ANo, it cannot be possible because I have kept the exact file.
QDo you also know exactly that Haensch was there personally?
AYes, I personally photographed him.
QCan you produce this book?
AYes, I can produce it, gladly.
DR. RIEDIGER:Mr. President, I will present this book, to be admitted in the document book.
MR. HOCHWALD:May the Prosecution examine the original?
THE PRESIDENT:By all means. Well, let Dr. Riediger finish his examination; then, of course, you can go into the cross examination thoroughly.
MR. HOCHWALD:If Dr. Riediger needs the book to further examine, of course I won't look into it just now.
DR. RIEDIGER:I also see in this book, copies of certificates.
AThose are the certificates in which every customer is entered.
QThere also are, and I want to present to you, a photographic copy about which you can give me some further details. What does this reveal?
ADr. Haensch was in my place on 21 February 1942. The proofs were sent to his wife in Zittau, marked 2071.
DR. RIEDIGER:I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Proceed with the cross examination.
CROSS EXAMINATION
MR. HOCHWALD:If the Tribunal please, I only want a minute to look into those two exhibits.
THE PRESIDENT:By all means. while you are looking at that, the Tribunal may put a few questions for the purpose of illumination, to the witness.
Q (By the President): Witness, where do you live now?
AI live in Berlin, Zchlendorf -- in the same home where I lived before.
QDid anything happen to your building during the war?
AYes, in 1943 my studio was damaged by bombs
QDo you live at the same place that you conduct your profession?
AYes, I live on the same floor.
QDid you have to abandon your quarters and your business because of the bombing?
AI did not understand the question.
QDid you have to leave this place where you were living, because of the damaged condition?
AYes, for three months I left my appartment and then went back after it had been repaired.
QWhen did the bombing occur?
A 1 March 1943.
QWere you actually in the building when the bombing occurred?
ANo, I was not in the building, I was with acquaintances in Steglitz.
QHow did it happen that you were not there?
AIt was in the late hours of the evening, and I was at the movies.
QHow many are in your family?
AThere is no one any more.
QWell, how many were in your family at the time -
March 1, 1943?
ANo one either. My sisters and brothers are all dead.
QYou live alone?
AI live alone. I have been separated from any husband for ten years.
QHow many rooms did you have at this place?
AI have two rooms and the business place.
QAt what time in the evening did the bombing occur?
AIt was after the movie was over. It must have been between eleven and eleven-thirty.
QWhen did you get back to the house?
AAbout two o'clock at night. I walked from Steglitz.
QYou arrived at two o'clock in the morning?
AYes, two o'clock in the morning.
QWere movies going until that late, to eleven o'clock in Berlin during the war?
AI presume, it might have been ten o'clock. I don't remember exactly.
QWhat time did the show let out?
AI assume it was ten or eleven o'clock, I can not say exactly.
QWill, did you have movies in Berlin during the war at night, late at night, until eleven o'clock?
AI assume until ten o'clock, from eight to ten, or ten-thirty in the first year of the war.
QWell, that was not the first year of the war. That was 1943, you were already in the fourth year of the war?
AYes.
QDid you have blackouts on the streets at the time?
AYes, everything was dim-out.
QAnd how far was the movie from your place of business?
AAbout four stations with the subway.
QAnd do I understand you to say you went on foot from the movie to your home?
AYes, I went on foot.
QHow many kilometers was that?
AFrom the movie I went to my acquaintances first where I waited for the bombing to end, it was very heavy, and then I went home on foot. I was about two o'clock at night.
QHow far did you walk on foot.
AFrom Zimmermannstr., Steglitz to Teltower Damm 33, Zehlendorf.
QWell, I am not familiar with Berlin, How far is that?
AThat is one and a quarter hours
QWell how many kilometers?
AI can hardly estimate.
QWell, it took an hour and a quarter to make that distance, is that right?
AYes, one and a quarter hours.
QAnd you were alone?
AYes, I was completely alone.
QAnd you were walking in the streets at two o'clock in the morning after a heavy bombing, alone?
AYes.
QWhy didn't you stay with your acquaintances that night?
ABecause I was worried about my home and my business.
QCouldn't you wait until the next day instead of travelling at midnight, or in the middle of the night during a blackout?
ANo, I didn't want to do that. I wanted to know what had happened to my home, and if everything was all right.
QWhat did you find when you got there?
AThat the roof of the studio had caved in, several walls had been damaged, and furniture had been damaged, but probably miraculously my equipment and my technical equipment had not been damaged.
QDid you stay there then that night?
AYes.
QEven though the roof had caved in?
AOnly the glass of the studio.
QI don't understand the answer.
AOnly the glass roof over the studio.
QWell, were your quarters undamaged?
ANo, inside much was damaged. Doors were broken, windows were broken, and soforth.
QHow about your bed, was it touched in any way?
ANo, the bed had not been damaged.
QAnd you stayed there for the rest of the night?
AYes, I stayed there completely, and tried again to clean it up.
MR. HOCHWALD:You may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HOCHWALD:
QWitness, did you meet Dr. Haensch before the 21 February 1942?
ANo.
QIt was for the first time that he came to your shop to be photographed?
AYes.
QCan you tell the Tribunal how many people you approximately used to photograph during one day?
AMy business files reveal how many persons a day I photographed, and how many were there the proceeding day.
QI only want you to say what was the average, what would you say was the average?
AOn an average about eight or ten persons a day.
QAnd six days a week?
AYes.
QDid you meet Dr. Haensch once after you had made his picture on 21 February 1942?
ANo, I only saw him this one time.
QAnd inspite of the fact that you are photographing eight persons a day, six days a week, you remember exactly that he was personally in your place, and you personally photographed him, is that what you are telling the Tribunal?
AYes. As a photographer I have a very good memory for persons, and when I saw the negative I immediately knew that I made the picture myself.
QWhen did you see this negative?
AAfter I had been requested to come here.
QWho asked you that?
AI was requested by court.
QAll right, but somebody must have asked you to have a look at the negative, and it certainly was not the Tribunal? Who showed you the negative?
AI myself, after I heard the name, pulled it out from my closet where it was kept in the filed, and looked at it then.
QThat is what I am trying to get at?
THE PRESIDENT:It is not clear yet how she first Learned about the necessity of looking for the negative. clear that up please. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
QAnd who asked you to testify? You never heard before that you were to testify when you got the information form the court, or were you interrogated before this by somebody else?
ADuring a trip the wife of Dr. Haensch came over to my studio, and requested me for a copy, or some documentary evidence that her husband had been photographed in my studio, and when I returned from this trip my employee informed me of this, and later on Dr. Riediger came over to my studio, and requested me to appear if requested as a witness.
QWho requested you to look at the photograph?
ANo one requested me. I saw that myself in order to Ascertain whether I myself personally took the picture.
QAnd inspite of the fact that it is now five years, and that you have very likely photograph hundreds, possibly thousands of persons, you immediately found out when you looked at the photograph that that was the man who was in your place, and that it was Herr Haensch, and all this detail, did you?
AYes, I know it immediately that I myself made this picture, and I approximately remembered his person.
QDo you have that photograph?
ANo, I don't have it with me.
QThen you don't have the picture?
AI have the negatives in my rooms in the witness house. I didn't make any copy.
QCan you tell the Tribunal whether the date of this picture is on the negative?
AI believe so. At any rate, the number and the name are on it. Everything I have is listed under the names and the numbers.
QI still do not understand how you were able to ascertain from the negative which you didn't see for five years, that you have made the picture, and that it was this Dr. Haensch.
I can understand, that you can say, that you can testify, in my book there is a name of Dr. Haensch in it, but I fail to understand how you were able to find it out?
AAs a photographer every face is imprinted in my memory better than in anyone's else mind. I also worked in theatres very much, and I have kept many actors' faces in mind, and when one actor came to request one picture I immediately from the face on the negative could say where it was, because as a photographer I see the negative as though it was a positive, and so I found it very quickly what it was, and I remembered that I personally took a picture of this man, and with the type of picture I can say I did that myself.
QIf you have such an excellent memory, can you tell the Tribunal whether Haensch was when he was photographed by you in uniform, or not?
AYes, he was in uniform.
QCan you tell the Tribunal the rank?
ANo, unfortunately I don't know much about that. I can not say anything about it.
QBut usually you used to write down the rank if somebody appeared in your place in uniform, is it not?
ANot always. I could never remember the uniform or the rank; the rank or the insignia.
QHere we have on 20 February here, number 385, and it is just one day before you photographed Haensch, and you said here that somebody was a Wachtmeister, which is a warrant officer.
why didn't you give Dr. Haensch who was in uniform an appropriate title as an SS Sturmbannfuehrer?
A.This whole bookeeping was done by an employee. You can see from the handwriting that I didn't write it myself.
Q.I am sorry, I am not familiar with your handwriting, I can not find that out.
A.Yes. Yes, I would hardly present such to you, but I didn't write it but an employee did that, and she wrote it accoring to our own way of writing orders, as she wanted to, and didn't give any position which had no significance at all.
Q.All right, if you have such an excellent memory, can you tell the Tribunal whether you photographed this Watchmeister Dresch?
A.I would first have to see the negative, or rather a picture.
Q.Can you describe to the Tribunal what this Watchmeister looked like?
A.No, I can only do that when I have seen the negative.
Q.Will you be good enough to hand to us a negative of the Picture of Watchmeister Dresch, No. 385, on 20 February 1942; is there anything in your memory so wonderful and so orderly, that if you found immediately a picture of Haensch, you will certainly find immediately a picture of Watchmeister Dresch?
A.Yes.
MR. HOCHWALD:No further questions. Will you tell the Tribunal, I notice in this book there are in the beginning approximately six or seven pages cut out. Do you think that if somebody has an orderly book that he would have such a thing?
THE WITNESS:I want to comment on the following: I used to be a dancing teacher, and I kept the namesof my pupils and since there were no new books to be gotten, I was forced to use an old book and started over anew.