GERTRUDSCHREYER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE DIXON:Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Allmighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
( The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE DIXON:You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. RIEDIGER:
QWitness, will you please state your name?
AMy name is Gertrud Schreyer.
QWhen were you born?
A 1 June 1902, Halle on the Saale.
QWhere is your permanent residence?
ABerlin-Zehlendorf, Teltower Damm 33.
QWitness, do you know Dr. Walter Haensch?
AYes, Dr. Walter Haensch was in my photographic studio in Berlin, Zehlendorf, to have his photo taken, on 21 February, 1942.
QHow do you know the exact date?
AMy records show this.
QIs an error in date possible?
ANo, it cannot be possible because I have kept the exact file.
QDo you also know exactly that Haensch was there personally?
AYes, I personally photographed him.
QCan you produce this book?
AYes, I can produce it, gladly.
DR. RIEDIGER:Mr. President, I will present this book, to be admitted in the document book.
MR. HOCHWALD:May the Prosecution examine the original?
THE PRESIDENT:By all means. Well, let Dr. Riediger finish his examination; then, of course, you can go into the cross examination thoroughly.
MR. HOCHWALD:If Dr. Riediger needs the book to further examine, of course I won't look into it just now.
DR. RIEDIGER:I also see in this book, copies of certificates.
AThose are the certificates in which every customer is entered.
QThere also are, and I want to present to you, a photographic copy about which you can give me some further details. What does this reveal?
ADr. Haensch was in my place on 21 February 1942. The proofs were sent to his wife in Zittau, marked 2071.
DR. RIEDIGER:I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Proceed with the cross examination.
CROSS EXAMINATION
MR. HOCHWALD:If the Tribunal please, I only want a minute to look into those two exhibits.
THE PRESIDENT:By all means. while you are looking at that, the Tribunal may put a few questions for the purpose of illumination, to the witness.
Q (By the President): Witness, where do you live now?
AI live in Berlin, Zchlendorf -- in the same home where I lived before.
QDid anything happen to your building during the war?
AYes, in 1943 my studio was damaged by bombs
QDo you live at the same place that you conduct your profession?
AYes, I live on the same floor.
QDid you have to abandon your quarters and your business because of the bombing?
AI did not understand the question.
QDid you have to leave this place where you were living, because of the damaged condition?
AYes, for three months I left my appartment and then went back after it had been repaired.
QWhen did the bombing occur?
A 1 March 1943.
QWere you actually in the building when the bombing occurred?
ANo, I was not in the building, I was with acquaintances in Steglitz.
QHow did it happen that you were not there?
AIt was in the late hours of the evening, and I was at the movies.
QHow many are in your family?
AThere is no one any more.
QWell, how many were in your family at the time -
March 1, 1943?
ANo one either. My sisters and brothers are all dead.
QYou live alone?
AI live alone. I have been separated from any husband for ten years.
QHow many rooms did you have at this place?
AI have two rooms and the business place.
QAt what time in the evening did the bombing occur?
AIt was after the movie was over. It must have been between eleven and eleven-thirty.
QWhen did you get back to the house?
AAbout two o'clock at night. I walked from Steglitz.
QYou arrived at two o'clock in the morning?
AYes, two o'clock in the morning.
QWere movies going until that late, to eleven o'clock in Berlin during the war?
AI presume, it might have been ten o'clock. I don't remember exactly.
QWhat time did the show let out?
AI assume it was ten or eleven o'clock, I can not say exactly.
QWill, did you have movies in Berlin during the war at night, late at night, until eleven o'clock?
AI assume until ten o'clock, from eight to ten, or ten-thirty in the first year of the war.
QWell, that was not the first year of the war. That was 1943, you were already in the fourth year of the war?
AYes.
QDid you have blackouts on the streets at the time?
AYes, everything was dim-out.
QAnd how far was the movie from your place of business?
AAbout four stations with the subway.
QAnd do I understand you to say you went on foot from the movie to your home?
AYes, I went on foot.
QHow many kilometers was that?
AFrom the movie I went to my acquaintances first where I waited for the bombing to end, it was very heavy, and then I went home on foot. I was about two o'clock at night.
QHow far did you walk on foot.
AFrom Zimmermannstr., Steglitz to Teltower Damm 33, Zehlendorf.
QWell, I am not familiar with Berlin, How far is that?
AThat is one and a quarter hours
QWell how many kilometers?
AI can hardly estimate.
QWell, it took an hour and a quarter to make that distance, is that right?
AYes, one and a quarter hours.
QAnd you were alone?
AYes, I was completely alone.
QAnd you were walking in the streets at two o'clock in the morning after a heavy bombing, alone?
AYes.
QWhy didn't you stay with your acquaintances that night?
ABecause I was worried about my home and my business.
QCouldn't you wait until the next day instead of travelling at midnight, or in the middle of the night during a blackout?
ANo, I didn't want to do that. I wanted to know what had happened to my home, and if everything was all right.
QWhat did you find when you got there?
AThat the roof of the studio had caved in, several walls had been damaged, and furniture had been damaged, but probably miraculously my equipment and my technical equipment had not been damaged.
QDid you stay there then that night?
AYes.
QEven though the roof had caved in?
AOnly the glass of the studio.
QI don't understand the answer.
AOnly the glass roof over the studio.
QWell, were your quarters undamaged?
ANo, inside much was damaged. Doors were broken, windows were broken, and soforth.
QHow about your bed, was it touched in any way?
ANo, the bed had not been damaged.
QAnd you stayed there for the rest of the night?
AYes, I stayed there completely, and tried again to clean it up.
MR. HOCHWALD:You may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HOCHWALD:
QWitness, did you meet Dr. Haensch before the 21 February 1942?
ANo.
QIt was for the first time that he came to your shop to be photographed?
AYes.
QCan you tell the Tribunal how many people you approximately used to photograph during one day?
AMy business files reveal how many persons a day I photographed, and how many were there the proceeding day.
QI only want you to say what was the average, what would you say was the average?
AOn an average about eight or ten persons a day.
QAnd six days a week?
AYes.
QDid you meet Dr. Haensch once after you had made his picture on 21 February 1942?
ANo, I only saw him this one time.
QAnd inspite of the fact that you are photographing eight persons a day, six days a week, you remember exactly that he was personally in your place, and you personally photographed him, is that what you are telling the Tribunal?
AYes. As a photographer I have a very good memory for persons, and when I saw the negative I immediately knew that I made the picture myself.
QWhen did you see this negative?
AAfter I had been requested to come here.
QWho asked you that?
AI was requested by court.
QAll right, but somebody must have asked you to have a look at the negative, and it certainly was not the Tribunal? Who showed you the negative?
AI myself, after I heard the name, pulled it out from my closet where it was kept in the filed, and looked at it then.
QThat is what I am trying to get at?
THE PRESIDENT:It is not clear yet how she first Learned about the necessity of looking for the negative. clear that up please. BY MR. HOCHWALD:
QAnd who asked you to testify? You never heard before that you were to testify when you got the information form the court, or were you interrogated before this by somebody else?
ADuring a trip the wife of Dr. Haensch came over to my studio, and requested me for a copy, or some documentary evidence that her husband had been photographed in my studio, and when I returned from this trip my employee informed me of this, and later on Dr. Riediger came over to my studio, and requested me to appear if requested as a witness.
QWho requested you to look at the photograph?
ANo one requested me. I saw that myself in order to Ascertain whether I myself personally took the picture.
QAnd inspite of the fact that it is now five years, and that you have very likely photograph hundreds, possibly thousands of persons, you immediately found out when you looked at the photograph that that was the man who was in your place, and that it was Herr Haensch, and all this detail, did you?
AYes, I know it immediately that I myself made this picture, and I approximately remembered his person.
QDo you have that photograph?
ANo, I don't have it with me.
QThen you don't have the picture?
AI have the negatives in my rooms in the witness house. I didn't make any copy.
QCan you tell the Tribunal whether the date of this picture is on the negative?
AI believe so. At any rate, the number and the name are on it. Everything I have is listed under the names and the numbers.
QI still do not understand how you were able to ascertain from the negative which you didn't see for five years, that you have made the picture, and that it was this Dr. Haensch.
I can understand, that you can say, that you can testify, in my book there is a name of Dr. Haensch in it, but I fail to understand how you were able to find it out?
AAs a photographer every face is imprinted in my memory better than in anyone's else mind. I also worked in theatres very much, and I have kept many actors' faces in mind, and when one actor came to request one picture I immediately from the face on the negative could say where it was, because as a photographer I see the negative as though it was a positive, and so I found it very quickly what it was, and I remembered that I personally took a picture of this man, and with the type of picture I can say I did that myself.
QIf you have such an excellent memory, can you tell the Tribunal whether Haensch was when he was photographed by you in uniform, or not?
AYes, he was in uniform.
QCan you tell the Tribunal the rank?
ANo, unfortunately I don't know much about that. I can not say anything about it.
QBut usually you used to write down the rank if somebody appeared in your place in uniform, is it not?
ANot always. I could never remember the uniform or the rank; the rank or the insignia.
QHere we have on 20 February here, number 385, and it is just one day before you photographed Haensch, and you said here that somebody was a Wachtmeister, which is a warrant officer.
why didn't you give Dr. Haensch who was in uniform an appropriate title as an SS Sturmbannfuehrer?
A.This whole bookeeping was done by an employee. You can see from the handwriting that I didn't write it myself.
Q.I am sorry, I am not familiar with your handwriting, I can not find that out.
A.Yes. Yes, I would hardly present such to you, but I didn't write it but an employee did that, and she wrote it accoring to our own way of writing orders, as she wanted to, and didn't give any position which had no significance at all.
Q.All right, if you have such an excellent memory, can you tell the Tribunal whether you photographed this Watchmeister Dresch?
A.I would first have to see the negative, or rather a picture.
Q.Can you describe to the Tribunal what this Watchmeister looked like?
A.No, I can only do that when I have seen the negative.
Q.Will you be good enough to hand to us a negative of the Picture of Watchmeister Dresch, No. 385, on 20 February 1942; is there anything in your memory so wonderful and so orderly, that if you found immediately a picture of Haensch, you will certainly find immediately a picture of Watchmeister Dresch?
A.Yes.
MR. HOCHWALD:No further questions. Will you tell the Tribunal, I notice in this book there are in the beginning approximately six or seven pages cut out. Do you think that if somebody has an orderly book that he would have such a thing?
THE WITNESS:I want to comment on the following: I used to be a dancing teacher, and I kept the namesof my pupils and since there were no new books to be gotten, I was forced to use an old book and started over anew.
Q.You have been doing this yourself, starting on page 71, is that right?
A.I don't know the number exactly.
Q.Can you tell the Tribunal that at no other time has anybody tampered with this "aufnahmebuck" - this photograph book?
A.I don't think so. I didn't change anything at all. It is entered by seminal number and by the orders.
MR. HOCHWALD:No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT:Let the Tribunal see those two documents, please. On what page did that entry appear?
MR. HOCHWALD:I don't know. It is on the second page, sir, I shall find it.
THE WITNESS:Number 391.
THE PRESIDENT:And where is the item. Is it this one here with the "x"?
MR. HOCHWALD:Yes, with the "X".
THE PRESIDENT:Will some one who can decipher this book please come to the bench and help the Tribunal. Perhaps both counsels, please, just come up here. (Discussion ensued before the bench with Mr. Hochwald and Dr. Riediger Present.)
Q.Did you take any pictures after the bombing?
A.I don't understand the question.
Q.Did you do any work after the place had been bombed?
A.For at least three to five months I interrupted my work and then started again.
Q.When did you start again?
A.It happened on the first of March. About November I started working again, about September, October or November.
QAnd did you keep records of those pictures also?
A.Only these block lists.
Q.Now please answer the question. Did you also keep records of those pictures which you took after September 1943?
A.Yes.
Q.And where are the records of those pictures?
A.I have them in Berlin. I only took this book along because this order was in it.
Q.Yes. You started a new book when you resumed your work in September 1943?
A.No, I didn't start a new book but I continued to keep these blocks.
Q.I don't understand what you mean by blocks. I presume you mean, books?
A.No, it is merely a small pad, which can be part of business papers. It is so called "daypads"
Q.Well, let's understand it. That each day that you took a picture, a record was kept in this book, is that right, or a large book?
A.Yes, in this book.
Q. yes, very well. Now on March 1st your place was bombed?
A.Yes.
Q.In September, or perhaps, October 1943, you resumed your business?
A.Yes.
Q.And you continues to keep records of the pictures which you made?
A.Yes, but only on this pad, these so called "daypads", not in a big pad.
Q.Why did you not continue the work of keeping records in this large book when you resumed your business in September or October 1943?
A.Because its continuance was so much work, and it was not needed for the purpose of tax estimate.
Q.Well, why was it necessary before March 1, 1943?
A.It was not necessary. I only kept it for the sake of order.
Q.Well, what caused you to abandon this sense of order after September 1943?
A.Because I was alone then, and it amounted to too much work for me which I could not do.
Q.How much work was necessary to work after each picture was taken, which consisted of one line, giving the date, the number and the name of the person . How much work was required to do that? How much time was required?
A.In this it only took half an hour but -
Q.About half an hour to write this one line in a book?
A.Not one line, for the days work, but for the days work.
Q.What happened to the assistant that you had in February 1943?
A.After the bombing attack she did not return to work because she married.
Q.Well, do they stop work when they marry?
A.In this case, yes.
Q.All right. Now you would take eight to ten pictures every day, is that right, on the average?
A.Yes, sometimes more.
Q.All right.
A.I cannot say exactly.
Q.Well, the average was eight to ten?
A.Yes.
Q.All right. So it meant writing eight to ten lines in your book at night?
A.Yes.
Q.Were you so busy during the war that you didn't have time to write eight to ten lines at night?
A.Yes, I kept my household, my business, and took all the pictures by myself.
Q.But you didn't have time to write these eight to ten lines at night?
A.No, because it was not absolutely necessary and I omitted.
Q.Then it was not necessary to keep this book prior to March 1, 1943, either was it?
A.That is true, but I had started it and I wanted to continue it, if I had the time. However, I can do that now, even now, because if my business records are in my office I can do that, even now, to write and fill in the book, even now.
Q.I don't understand it, you can fill in the book now. I don't understand what you mean by that?
A.Of course, I would take an assistant to do that.
Q.Well, we are at least in the same room together. We certainly are not in the same thought together. I asked you why you didn't keep this book after March 1, 1943 and you answered that it wasn't necessary. Now, you tell me that you can, if you want to, keep such a book. If you would keep such a book you would believe it would be necessary, wouldn't you?
A.For me personally later an. but it won't be used for tax purposes.
Q.Did you fail to keep books because you wanted to avoid the payment of taxes?
A.Oh, no. Tax is kept in a very proper and orderly way. That was not the reason. - I see from this case that it is perhaps necessary to keep a book like that. There might be other cases which are important, so it is perhaps good to have a book like that.
Q.When did you start to keep this book?
A.When I began?
Q.Yes.
A.I think 1 November 1941.
Q.Yes, so you kept this book all throught 1941,1942, and two months of 1943. That is 26 months. and then suddenly you abandoned this very orderly way or keeping your records, is that right?
A.I beg your pardon? After the bombing attack -
THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Hochwald, please, I want to find out just what those items indicate. This is the date, this is the number, this is the name. What is this? Is that the address?
MR.HORLICK-HOCHWALD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT:All right. and what is this?
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD:It seems to be the number of the picture.
THE PRESIDENT:And what is that?
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD:Cards.
THE PRESIDENT:The size, What is that?
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD:Price.
THE PRESIDENT:Price.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD:The day which the price was paid.
THE PRESIDENT:The price was paid?
Q. (By the President):
Now, witness, we understand that as against each order you would write the date the picture was taken, the number of the order, the person whose picture was taken, his address, the number of pictures ordered, the price, and the amount paid, is that correct?
A.Yes.
Q.Now after September 1943, did you not keep that kind of record in order to know just what you were doing in your business?
A.Oh yes, the pad shows it exactly.
Q.Where are these pads after September 1943?
A.I have all of them; they are all being kept.
DR. RIEDIGER:Your Honor, the witness means to say that this pad is one of the pad which concerns Haensch, and Haensch is on the pad which is in front of you.
THE PRESIDENT:Please indicate the page.
THE WITNESS: 391.
Q. (By the President) so that in February, 1942, you were keeping a double record, the large book and the block pad?
A.Yes.
Q.And after September 1943---
A.I only had the pads because the book was superfluous.
Q.You didn't think it was superfluous prior to March 1, 1943 did you?
A.When I began the business in Zehlendorf I started the book, and afterwards I realized that it was just double work, because the pads shows everything, what the tax needed from me.
Q.Where are the pages that you tore out of this book from 1 to 70?
A.They do not concern this matter, but I gave ballet instructions, as I said, and the names of my pupils were in these pages, which are not concerned in this matter.
Q.I asked you, where are the pages which you tore out of this book?
A.I probably destroyed them.
Q.Well wasn't it just as important to know the people that you taught dancing as the people you made pictures of?
A.The matter lost its interest because it was from 1913 until 1915.
Q. 1913 to 1915?
A.Yes.
Q. you were giving lessons then?
A.Yes.
Q.I perhaps may be very indiscreet, but how old were you then?
A.Nineteen. I was going on twenty. I was born in 1892.
Q.What was this book doing between 1915 and 1941?
A.It must have been kept in some closet or other.
Q.So that for twenty-six years this lonely book did nothing?
A.Yes.
Q.Then suddendly you decided to put it to use to keep records of the picture which were taken?
A.Yes.
Q.Yes, now, what caused you to keep this book after March 1, 1943, and not keep the record of the people you had taught dancing?
A.Because it had lost all interest to me.
Q.Well, what interest did this book have to you; what enter tainment and joy did you derive from turning the pages of this book which caused you to keep it through all the war years after March 1, 1943?
What was it that endeared this to your heart to such an extent that you kept it during those troublesome times?
A.It had no special reason. I kept all my things for a long time, and since there were no books to be bought afterwards, I looked up this book, cut out the pages, and used the rest for my business purposes.
Q.I don't quite understand what you mean. You cut out the pages and used the rest for your business purposes?
A.Yes.
Q.You mean you cut out the unused pages and used them for other purposes?
A.No.
Q.Well, it isn't clear just what you mean by: you cut the pages out and used them.
A.No I took the pages which had been written on and destroyed them and used the rest of the book for my business because no new books could be bought.
Q.All right. Since you are such a thrifty person, why is it that you allowed all these blank pages to go unused, from page 138 to - 349? How is it that you didn't use all this good blank paper with paper probably so expensive?
A.Because I intended to keep the book for myself personally but I didn't have the time to do that.
Q.You intended to keep the book personally, but you didn't have time to do what?
A.To enter all these addresses of the customers.
Q.You did intend to enter the addressed of the customers?
A.Yes, I had this intention, but I lacked the time to do so.
Q.Well, you had six to eight customers a day, eight to ten customers a day, and you want the Tribunal to believe that because of this volume of business you were unable to keep a book which you desired to keep?
A.I already testified that I kept my household, did all my work alone and my business.
Q.Where is the woman who made this record?
A.She lives in Berlin in Zehlendorf.
Q.What is her name?
A.Frau Friedel Reich.
Q.Spell it please.
A.R-e-i-c-h.
Q.What is her address?
A.Zehlendorf, Teltower Damm 44.
Q.I don't know whether the reporters are able to get that or not. Perhaps you had better spell it.
A.The name, R-e-i-c-h.
Q.What is her first name?
A.Friedel. Spell that.
Q.Spell that.
A.F-r-i-e-d-e-l.
Q.All right, give us the street address.
A.Toltower Damm.
Q.I didn't catch it.
A.Teltower Damm, T-e-l-t-o-w-e-r D-a-m-m, 44.
Q.What section of Berlin?
A.Berlin-Zehlendorf.
Q.When did you see this woman last?
A.I only met her superficially somewhere on the stree in Berlin.
Q.When did you see her last?
A.Perhaps four weeks ago; four to six weeks ago.
Q.Four to six weeks ago? Did you talk to her about this trial?
A.No.
Q.When did you first learn that you had to come to Nurnberg to testify in this case?
A.The beginning of November. I don't remember the exact day. I was supposed to appear here on the 10th of November, but I became ill.
Q.November of this year?
A.November of this year.
Q. so when you saw this woman you didn't know that you were going to testify?
A.I don't think so, and I would not have talked about it either.
Q.Why wouldn't you have talked about it?
A.I had no occasion to do that.
Q.But you are submitting a document here which is not made up by yourself. Why wouldn't you want to talk with the person who made up the document?
A.I had no thought of it, and I don't think that it was during that time that I met her. It must have been sometime before this, before I received the telegram.
Q.So the last time you saw her was four to six weeks ago, and it was prior to the time that you received the telegram to come to Nurnberg?
A.Yes, I didn't talk with her we simply passed one another.
Q.When did Mrs. Haensch speak to you for the first time about this case?