Q. Did you believe that that was correct?
A. I cannot say anything about that; at the time I was still too young.
Q. I possibly made myself not enough clear. I, of course, wanted to say if you considered it correct if these people were arrested and sent to concentration camps just in order to clean the Heimatfront from the Jews.
A. Do you mean my attitude to the question at that time or now?
Q. Not today; then, when you did see how the people were sent to the concentration camps, and you knew about it.
A. At the time I did not know that they were sent to concentration camps. I only knew that they were sent into camps. I assumed that those were some kind of internment camps.
Q. Did you know that concentration camps existed in Germany?
A. Yes.
Q. How many did you know about in 1939?
A. In 1939 I should have heard of two, one was the socalled Camp Sachsenhausen near Berlin; and the other one was at Dachau.
Q. Did you learn about Buchenwald during your activity in *---*
A. I don't think so. The existence of the Camp Buchenwald I think I only heard about later.
Q. There is an affidavit in your document book which was not submitted by your counsel. If the Tribunal pleases, on pages 60 and 61 of the document book Fendler. The affiant here tells the story that you assisted here Frau Suessmuth and her Jewish husband in the camp of Stefanau, the existence of which you have here testified just 15 minutes ago, and she goes on to say that her husband died in 1940 in the concentration camp at Buchenwald. Did she, meaning herself, an Aryan, get arrested by the Gestapo in the same year and did you make an intervention that she got out.
Did she not tell you ever that her husband was later sent to Buchenwald?
A. I do not remember that. Probably Frau Suessmuth at the time did not even know where her husband was; she probably only knew he was in a concentration camp, or at least he was not with her any longer. She only heard afterwards that he had been brought to Buchenwald at the time.
Q. Was it known to you that Czechoslovakian citizens were sent for forced labor to Germany at that time?
A. At this time I don't think so. At that time, if I am correctly informed, people were asked to work in Germany voluntarily.
Q. I think there is also an affidavit in existence which shows that you might have known at least something about that and this is on page 64 of the document book Fendler. I do not want to take the time of the Tribunal to read that into the record buy it is clear from the document that you, Mr. Fendler, were of some assistance to Czechoslovakian citizens when they were not sent to Germany, so you must have known by then that arrangements were not so voluntary?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, may I give a brief explanation here. This assistance took place after I left Olmuetz. Until the collapse, I must say now, unfortunately, I retained my apartment at Olmuetz and stayed there occasionally. This event to which this refers as far as I remember happened in the year 1944.
Q. But you knew then before the collapse of Germany that Czechoslovakian citizens were forcibly sent to Germany for work?
A. Of course. My denial only referred to the time that I was active in Olmuetz until the end of 1944.
Q. You have given the Tribunal information about your knowledge, what happened in the East, about your knowledge as to what happened in Czechoslovakia; about your knowledge as to what happened or did not happen to the Jews.
Did you consider during the time you were a member of the SD, of the Party and of the SS, these measures were justified?
A. To this rather general question unfortunately I have to give a general answer. I must say that collective measures of that sort are rejected by me on principles and that I regret them for these persons who are concerned buy this applies to all such things and for all times.
of law so you would know something about international law. Do you think the orders as they were known to you about the summary procedure, where people could be executed at the discretion of the officer, where no procedures according to martial law -- that would be the right word -were held -- did you consider these orders correct according to the laws and customs of war according to the law valid in Germany and common to all civilized nations? Did you consider them in accordance with these norms? this question with "yes" or "no." Then you explain; but this question would be nice if you could answer it first with "yes" or "no." question was too complicated and put in a too general way.
Q I can possibly make it a little bit more specific. Do you think that the order which abandoned procedure according to martial law and gave discretion to an officer, who must not have any legal training, who must have only had a commission, to shoot people and to order executions was in accordance with the laws and customs of war and the Hague Convention? but please, may I give further explanations on this? During the time of my assignment in the East I was shocked and moved by the impressions I received there, about the manner of warfare by the Russians. I don't want to say now afterwards, nor do I feel called upon to do this, that I want to justify any German measures; I can only say that in the condition that I was at the time I could not arrive at any ambiguous decision above the necessity and justification of the measures ordered by the German leadership. I can only say that concerning the orders given I was shocked.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: I have no further questions.
BY THE PRESIDENT: voluntarily. was it now?
Q You say that Mr. Wartenberg threatened with sending you back to Czechoslovakia. Now, do you stand on that statement? Honor, not when signing the affidavit.
Q Very well. During the interrogation did he threaten with sending you back to Czechoslovakia?
Q Why should you worry about going back to Czechoslovakia? With all the people you helped there they would probably have received you with open arms, wouldn't they? you returned to Czechoslovakia harm would visit you? What did you do there?
A Please, may I explain the situation?
Q Please answer that. What did you do in Czechoslovakia that, if Mr. Wartenberg threatened be put into effect, would have caused you harm?
A I myself did not do anything there, buy Mr. Wartenberg told me: "You know how your kind of people are dealt with there. You can expect to hang two hours after the verdict is pronounced." That is what Mr. Wartenberg said so I replied to him: "I am not afraid of facing any Czech authorities." Of course, all that matters is if they would give a just verdict on my attitude in Olmuetz. which were not true?
no way affected the truthfulness of what you told him? of interrogation by Mr. Wartenberg rather excited me and it is possible that in that state my recollection failed me partly but, none the less, in spite of these threats, I tried, to the best of my knowledge and belief, to speak the truth as far as possible.
Q Did you tell him in fact the following: "I have never been officially designated as a deputy of Hermann's. I have, however, taken charge of official matters during his absence." Did you tell him that?
Q Is that true? today affirm, is there? affidavit, your Honor. I merely asked that some supplementary remarks should be inserted in order to make the meaning of that what I had said quite clear.
Q Very well; so far as it goes, it is correct. as the truth and the actual facts as I related them at the time. between 13 and 26 September, were you? 133 political officials, 9 sabateurs and looters and 125 Jews. Did you know of that execution? either.
Q Please answer my question. Do you know of this execution?
by the Kommando. There might have been several executions. As I said in my direct examination, I heard about it in Krementschug that one execution was carried out, shortly before the transfer of the Kommando to Poltawa. Whether those persons were excuted on that occasion mentioned in this report here now, I cannot say. done by Special Kommando 4-B in the period already indicated and that execution brought about the death of the individuals I have mentioned. Do you know of that execution -- yes or no? I know that an execution took place in Krementschug.
Q Why don't you know of this execution which occurred while you were with the organization which performed it? Explain why you, the senior officer in command of an organization which only consisted of 80 men or a hundred at the most, always one compact unit, why you would not know of an episode of this gravity? been carried out I should probably have heard about it or possibly I assume so, but I cannot say in detail whether this execution occurred. I only know -- I don't know whether the persons mentioned here were executed then; I only know that some execution took place. ing occurred at this time?
A In Krementschug? You mean in this time we are now discussing, your Honor?
Q Do you remember the execution? carried out or was carried out. numerous execution?
A I cannot say that. I do not recollect the preparations on that I would have noticed them.
THE PRESIDENT: Between now and Monday morning you try and recollect just box many were executed at that execution and all other relevant facts.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 15 December 1947 at 0930 hours).
of America; against Otto Ohlendorf, et al., 15 December 1947.
0930-10.00. Justice Musmanno,
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. SUSS: Dr. Suss, representative for the attorney Dr. Linck for the defendant Ruehl. Your Honor, I ask that the defendant Ruehl be excused from this afternoon session, and from tomorrows session the entire day, in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want him sent to Room 57 this afternoon?
DR. SUSS: Yes, I would like to ask for this.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Ruehl will be excused from attendance in court this afternoon, and tomorrow all day. This afternoon he will be taken to Room 57 where he may confer with his counsel.
DR. SUSS: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You are welcome. adjournment, we were discussing the action which occurred while you were with Einsatzcommando IV-B, which resulted in the execution of 103 Political officials, 9 saboteurs and looters, and 125 Jews. Now tell us about this action. You were with the Einsatzcommando at the time, you were the next senior officer in rank in the commando, and it is inconceivable that you would not know about this operation?
my assignment I had nothing to do with the executive jobs, that is, the arrests, investigations, and finally with the carrying out of the sentence which led to the executions. In addition, I didn't know about the files of these cases -
Q Just a moment. Did you know about this particular action which occurred between 13th and 26th of September which brought about the execution of 103 Political Officials, 9 Saboteurs and Looters, and 125 Jews?
A I don't know, Your Honor, whether this was one action - it in Kremenchug that one execution took place, but I don't know what people were concerned there. you were with the IV-B? of which I heard.
Q And how many were killed in these six executions?
A I can not say, Your Honor, as I don't know.
Q For what were the executions? to the document, or, rather to the report to which the president has just referred, if I may refer to this, that is in Document Book II-A, Document No. 3155. There are two paragraphs after the passage which Your Honor has cited, and, in this it is stated in general that the following motives are at the basis for the execution carried out by the commando: Political functionaries, looters, saboteurs, active Communists, carriers of such political ideas.
is why they were being executed; that these various things which you are now enumerating to us are the reasons why the individuals were executed, is that right?
Q Very well, proceed with your answer. Continue to read. Continue to read. prison camp under false pretenses, agents, and assistants of the NKWD, people who had participated in the deportation of Ethnic Germans, of making false statements, a socialists, and Jewish and the search for the undesirable elements.
Q Whom do you mean by the "Undesirable Elements." That is a rather large and broad category, and wide, so who would be "Undesirable elements. "Would they be Jews?
A I can not say, Your Honor, I don't know what they mean by this. members of the Russian Partisan bands. epidemics?
A I think I mentioned it, yes. I beg your pardon. Russians with food, agitators, and instigators, juvenile delinquents, Jews in general.
Q Yes. Now tell us about this last phrase, "Jews in general. "That means all Jews, doesn't it?
A I don't know, Your Honor, whether they mean all Jews.
Q What does "Jews in general" mean?
Q Yes. Now you have on your own volition called out attention to this list of people who were killed, so it must be assumed that you are familiar with this. You were advancing this as an explanation of the operation which resulted in the death of 103 Political officials, 9 Saboteurs and Looters and 125 Jews. You knew then, didn't you, that Jews were being killed because they were Jews? didn't know this. categories of executees? kind of people were concerned.
AAnd here in this report these people are listed? before, not only in Commando IV-B, but also of V and IV-A, that is to say, they refer to the activity of all commandos of the different Einsatzgruppe-C. were Jews? at Pretzsch?
A I didn't command in Pretzsch personally.
Q When you arrived in Pretzsch weren't you for a few days in command of Einsatzcommando IV-B?
Q We had understood something to that effect? not the case.
Q When did you first learn of the Fuehrer Order? with the Press Report at the IMT. That is, after the collapse, after I was in camp.
Q When did you first learn that Jews were to be executed?
A Were to be executed, Your Honor?
Q Yes. You know it.
A I don't think I understood your question correctly? the Einsatzgruppen?
Q What did Herrmann tell you in Lemberg? to take action against the bearers of the Bolshevist System, within the security mission of the commandos, and to take very severe actions against these.
Q What did he say about the Jews? Bolshevist System, or as Bolshevist functionaries, that is, rather, Jewish Bolshevist functionaries, as the Jews who were to be considered as bearers of Bolshevist system. as bearers of the Bolshevist Doctrine?
A If the security demanded it. He didn't say at the time that all Jews were to be executed, Your Honor.
with Jews who were among those who were active in carrying on the flag of Bolshevism, isn't that what he told you? should or should not be executed?
Q Well, how was the decision reached?
Q And how would they decide it?
A I personally, Your Honor? whether a certain number of Jews were to be executed or not?
A I don't think that I can answer this question so very generally. a certain number of Jews, didn't he? One-hundred Jews were brought before him, he knows of the one-hundred Jews, he must decide whether they were to be executed or not, How does he decide?
A I don't know, your Honor. the unit was never separated. You were the Senior Officer in command, and if you are a man of intelligence, you knew how Hermann finally decided whether to execute or not to execute; either you knew, or you are trying to make us believe you are an ignoramus, which you certainly do not appear to be. Herrmann made.
in the same mission. You were there for the same purpose, that is the reason? didn't bring them over, then they were brought to him because he had given an order for that, and he would not have given this order to me, but he would have given this to a member of the Department IV. That is why I can not say what he would have done in a theoretical case, because the one-hundred Jews would be brought to him.
Q It is not a theoretical case. It is a natural case in this very incidence of the killing.
Q No, it is not theoretical, you were there. While you were there, while you held the High Office in this commando were there 230 people who were killed in one operation. Now, how did Herrmann come to his conclusion as to whether he should kill these people, and did kill them, how did he arrive at his decision to kill these people? just said, kill these people? Maybe something happened in this period which led to this. Maybe he had an order from the Army to do it. tell us? gations?
A I can not say, I don't know.
Q You were there?
A I was with the Commando Your Honor? commando?
A I don't know, Your Honor.
Q Give us an estimate? right? many were killed. An execution is not an abstract thing, It is a very tangible material thing?
Q All right. How many were executed?
Q Now don't give us "maybe". It is an actual thing. How did you find out about these executions, and how many were executed?
Q How many were executed in each execution? Ten?
A I don't know.
Q Fifteen?
A I don't know. were killed. How did you know that?
Q Were you present at that execution?
Q How did you know twenty or thirty were killed? the men were excited about the fact they had to carry out an execution.
Q They talked about it a great deal, did they?
A I beg your pardon? About this first execution, yes, they talked a lot.
twenty or thirty? said why they killed those twenty or thirty; what was charged against these twenty or thirty; what did they say as the reason why these twenty or thirty were killed?
A I don't know.
Q Did they talk about it?
Q Did they say they were Jews?
Q Did they say why these Jews were killed? these twenty or thirty? the murdered prisoners who had been found, whom the Bolshevists had left behind; that these were people who had something to do with these incidents.
Q Then you did know why they were executed, don't you?
Q But you didn't tell us that when I first asked you, did you? people were killed.
Q And you said, no?
Q Yes, now you tell us you did know why they were executed. Where did you get your knowledge?
Q Upon what do you base your conclusion?
Q And what is your knowledge based upon? in the prison -- pardon me, were found. because one-hundred bodies were found there?
A No one told me that, Your Honor. This is a conclusion I drew myself.
Q Did you talk to any men about that?
Q All right, and what did they say?
AAbout the question of the motive, I don't know that.
Q Tell us exactly what did they say about the motive for the killing? found out that there were people who were executed. Did you ask any one as to whether these two events were connected with each other in any way? Honor. which to base your conclusion?
A Yes, as I said. Your Honor, I had heard that five-hundred murdered prisoners, among them German prisoners of war, had been found in the prison. it to five-hundred, which is correct?
A Pardon me, the translation must have been wrong. I spoke of several hundred.
Q How many is it now? You have given one-hundred, several hundred, and five hundred. How many were there?
Q Five-hundred. All right now. Did they tell you that they had executed these twenty or thirty because the five-hundred prisoners who had been murdered?
Q Then how did you come to that conclusion? murder of the German prisoners of war had been carried out.
of German prisoners of war had been carried out.
Q Well, someone must have said something to that effect. Suppose they were killed because they had done something else? Suppose they had been killed because they were looters? You had to have some facts upon which to draw your conclusion which you have now given us. What fact did you base it upon? discussed - that there was great excitement on the part of the German Army among the troops stationed there and that there were excesses on the part of these troops because they found members of this unit brutally murdered in this prison. said "We have killed 20 to 30 people because of the murder." Is that what you want us to believe? No one ever made that statement?
A I can not say. In general maybe somebody did.
Q Well, then some one did tell you why the executions took place?
A He wouldn't have had to give this explanation to me.
Q Well, you said everybody was talking about them. You did hear someone say that men were executed because of the murders which had occurred in the prison, is that right? said why these 20 to 30 had been killed, is that right?
Q Now you will have to remember. You heard these people talking about executions, it was the first execution. The men were quite disturbed over the fact that they had to conduct these executions, shooting down defenseless people. The Army was tremendously excited about it, everyone was talking about these executions. Now, in all this talk no one said why these 20 to 30 were killed? You want us to believe that?